256 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

You don't have to be tranquiled to not ****ing use magic, see this, is why I call you a troll, Rifneno, you make **** up and create strawmans that were never really argued.

Malcolm Hawke gave up magic for an untold amount of years working as a mercenary sword for hire before he met Leandra (It's in the codex). You can give up magic without being forced (Tranquiled) to give up magic by simply not using magic provided you have the training to do so.

[GavrielKay]

Harid wrote...

You don't have to be tranquiled to not ****ing use magic, see this, is why I call you a troll, Rifneno, you make **** up and create strawmans that were never really argued.

Malcolm Hawke gave up magic for an untold amount of years working as a mercenary sword for hire before he met Leandra (It's in the codex). You can give up magic without being forced (Tranquiled) to give up magic by simply not using magic provided you have the training to do so.

Geez.  The stated reason that mages are kept locked up away from normal people is that they are under constant threat of demonic possession due to their connection to the fade.  Unless you want to categorically deny that this is a risk, then you should admit that anyone saying "give up magic forever" is more likely to be talking about Tranquling than raising their right hand and saying "I promise."

Modifié par GavrielKay, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:06 .

[GavrielKay]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think those who believe mages to be the same as normal people to be insanely selfish. They want all the perks of being able to cast destructive spells - and also, have all the personal freedoms of people who can't possibly defend themselves from these people.

Mages are born.  They are not people who sat around and plotted about how to get enough power to wreck the lives of others.  They are a natural occurence.  Like an earthquake or a rainbow.  They don't plan it, some of them don't even want it.  It just happens.  Selfish is believing that someone who wasn't born with magic has the right to imprison someone who was born with magic because it makes them feel better.

This notion that mages could be trusted with their power is purely based on the idea that selfish people want to be able to have power, abuse it, and still claim that they should be held to the same standard as people denied that power.

In my case it's actually based on the notion that no one deserves to feel safe more than someone else deserves to be free.  Until a mage actually commits a crime, they are just as innocent as the normal people you are so concernted with.  Once they do commit a crime they deserve a punishment fitting that.  Same as anyone else.  You know, real equality.

You want equality - then all mages should be public servants using their powers for the good of the entire community.

By that version of equality, you might as well say every child should be tested for their aptitude and forced to work in whatever field they can best serve the nation in.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:23 .

[TEWR]

By that version of equality, you might as well say every child should be tested for their aptitude and forced to work in whatever field they can best serve the nation in.

you know, this might just be me but I could swear that sounds familiar....

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

By that version of equality, you might as well say every child should be tested for their aptitude and forced to work in whatever field they can best serve the nation in.

you know, this might just be me but I could swear that sounds familiar....

Indeed.

[Medhia Nox]

@GabrielKay - Interesting you equate them to natural disasters (in your example, an earthquake) - I agree.

I didn't say they should be imprisoned - I believe that what I wrote involves mages committing a crime. We need a license to drive a car - is that imprisonment? No - it's a requirement for a privilege.

Mages might be born with magic - but presumably in this fictitious world, you don't need to learn how to cast a fireball to fend off demons in the fade. In fact - we only enter the Fade by desire. We have no examples that show mages are forced into the Fade when they sleep. SO - going into the Fade is not even required of a mage. So - when meditative self-control techniques (or whatever they teach mages in this world) would keep you safe from demons (as opposed to the overreaction of "TRANQUILITY IS EEEEVIL!") - then simply not casting spells - would be easy.

That is - for a mage that doesn't like his power... just a little bit.

So - sure, let the mages out of their gilded cages. Hand them to the common people - let them deal with.

Let me ask - if a mage has a right to kill a man with a fireball, simply because he can cast "fireball". Does a mob have the right to tie his individual limbs to four separate horses and have them each run in a separate direction until the "natural disaster that burned down half the village and killed scores of people" is pulled apart?

Now - you didn't say this (that mages have a right to harm peopel), so what's the harm in prohibiting combat spells?

Should mages be allowed to cast "Curse of Mortality" - is that a "Right" of theirs too? How about "Chain Lightning"?

Outside of the game, where combat is all you really do, the world of Thedas has no use for these walking natural disasters. IF they chose to not use these abilities - then they ought to be left alone.

If they insist on using destructive forces at the whim of their own moral compass - then I'll be the first mage to assist the various nations of Thedas to put these dangerous mages down.

[GavrielKay]

Medhia Nox wrote...
I didn't say they should be imprisoned - I believe that what I wrote involves mages committing a crime. We need a license to drive a car - is that imprisonment? No - it's a requirement for a privilege.

Last I checked driving a car wasn't genetic.  A privilege is something you earn, sure enough, but magic isn't.

Mages might be born with magic - but presumably in this fictitious world, you don't need to learn how to cast a fireball to fend off demons in the fade. In fact - we only enter the Fade by desire. We have no examples that show mages are forced into the Fade when they sleep. SO - going into the Fade is not even required of a mage. So - when meditative self-control techniques (or whatever they teach mages in this world) would keep you safe from demons (as opposed to the overreaction of "TRANQUILITY IS EEEEVIL!") - then simply not casting spells - would be easy.

Which totally misses all the lore that mages are (as DG put it) a box of kittens that could explode in your face at any moment.  There is no lore that says not using magic will protect a mage from demons.  Mental discipline and training yes, abstinence no.  The closest we get to that is the claim that blood magic specifically makes it easier for a demon to get at you.

Now - you didn't say this (that mages have a right to harm peopel), so what's the harm in prohibiting combat spells?

And if that fireball spell could have protected the village from a giant spider?  Or coterie gang?  Or the blizzard spell could have extinguised the village fire?  Combat spells have uses beyond evil blood thirsty mages wanting to take over the world.

Should mages be allowed to cast "Curse of Mortality" - is that a "Right" of theirs too? How about "Chain Lightning"?

Obviously that depends on who it is cast on.  The orgre attacking the village, sure, that's their right.  Taking something to its worst extreme to justify your position isn't persuasive.

If they insist on using destructive forces at the whim of their own moral compass - then I'll be the first mage to assist the various nations of Thedas to put these dangerous mages down.

Then we agree completely and the whole system of paperwork and forced servitude can be avoided.

Modifié par GavrielKay, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:47 .

[Harid]

GavrielKay wrote...

Harid wrote...

You don't have to be tranquiled to not ****ing use magic, see this, is why I call you a troll, Rifneno, you make **** up and create strawmans that were never really argued.

Malcolm Hawke gave up magic for an untold amount of years working as a mercenary sword for hire before he met Leandra (It's in the codex). You can give up magic without being forced (Tranquiled) to give up magic by simply not using magic provided you have the training to do so.

Geez.  The stated reason that mages are kept locked up away from normal people is that they are under constant threat of demonic possession due to their connection to the fade.  Unless you want to categorically deny that this is a risk, then you should admit that anyone saying "give up magic forever" is more likely to be talking about Tranquling than raising their right hand and saying "I promise."

Demonic possession has nothing to do with actively using magic or not.  It's a constant in being a mage, and has nothing to do with the discussion of using magic or not.  With proper training as I stated (i.e. circle training) to resist demonic manipulation, not that that is really needed given the Dalish and Apostates, a mage would not then be compelled to use magic for any reason.  When you can control your magic, it is nothing more than a tool.  Just because I have a sledgehammer permanently attached at the hip does not compel me to use it on any and/or everybody.

The point Medhia seemed to be making is you can't act and complain about not being treated like 'the normals' when you are clearly something other than normal.  This isn't sexual orientation, or skin color, these are people that can conjure fireballs, or mend a wound in seconds.  These people are nothing close to being normal, so expecting to be treated that way is naive at best and foolish at worst.  Either you would have to blend in by actively not using your magic, or you would have to admit that you are not normal and normal people will need protection from some of the people like you, despite your moral compass, and understand that because of that, you will be, and it's neccessary to, treat you differently.   One crazed mad man with a sword cannot raze a village, he will be outnumbered and ignominously slain.   (I wholeheartedly expect someone to say a leader could, but that would be ignoring the warriors under his command, but, hey.)  A single mage can raze a village with ease, or do worse, given the Blackmarsh, and as far as we've been shown, the only people who can kill mages are templars, demons, or soldiers with mage support.  (Well, and our awesome main characters, because they are, well, awesome.)

Modifié par Harid, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:31 .

[Gervaise]

Even if it were generally accepted that mages should be free, there would need to be some sort of education system widely available because not every mage grows up in a family where there are other mages and it would appear that young mages do need the right sort of guidance to avoid getting themselves into trouble - just look at Connor.  The reason Jowan was such a lousy teacher is that he'd never really learnt to discipline his own mind.   As mentioned on another post, a countrywide school network would not be feasible so they would likely be gathered in one or two places throughout a particular region.   Obviously they wouldn't be locked up and could still see their families but it would probably have to be compulsory for at least a few weeks or months every year.   It might also help some kids who if they were the only magically gifted person in a vllage would probably feel a bit isolated.

Currently in Thedas there a two big barriers to mage freedom.  The lesser one is the peasants who simply fear them.  That fear might easily be overcome if mages start to help people by healing them and protecting their livestock from harm, etc.  It was the ordinary refugees who were keeping Anders safe because they appreciated his help.   The bigger problem is the ruling elite.  Outside of Tevinter the majority of these are not mages and they are the ones who will chiefly feel threatened, particularly if the mage is popular with the peasants because the mage may stop them exercising their "rights".  Most ruling houses are closely connected with the Chantry and often have their own chapel and in house clergy.  This works both ways in supporting the Chantry's position in society and maintaining the person's right to rule.  As I pointed out above, oppression and virtual slavery isn't limited to mages in Thedas and the knowledge that the mages could challenge the might of the Templars in Kirkwall would only be considered a good thing by the ruling elite elsewhere if they considered the Templars had too much power or had particular sympathy for mages, perhaps because they had them in their own family.   In the past a ruler could hold out the carrot of greater freedom for the circle to try and get their support.  If there are no longer any circles to deal with, the ruler may opt for going with the Chantry or the Templars as that is maintaining the status quo and therefore does not threaten their rule.   The reason magic is allowed/has been ignored among the tribes and the dalish is that they don't have enough clout to worry about or the land they possess is not thought worth fighting over. 

I would suggest that hell will freeze over before Orlais grants any freedom to mages.  They have too much invested in the Chantry and the authorised religion  to admit they have got it wrong in the past.   If any of their neighbours does so, then that would be the signal for an Exalted March and an excuse to invade.

[Harid]

I still don't know why people try to pin this on Orlais when every Thedas nation outside of Rivain (and even some parts of that country, given there is a bloody circle there,) are happily Andrastian.

Yes, Orlais has some power to lose, but the majority of Chantry power lies with the Chantry more so than it does with Orlais.

We don't even know the mechanisms of a Exalted March, but I guarantee you it's not just the armies of Orlais.

Modifié par Harid, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:41 .

[Medhia Nox]

@GavrielKay - so how about raising the dead? What if I raised one of your loved ones from the dead - because I could? Perhaps - I like "living dolls" and I raise children from the dead? I'm a mage - and I can - so it's my right, yes?

You really need a fireball to take down an ogre? I recommend something with a little less collateral damage. Because - in an actual literary setting, that same mage that "saved" the village with a fireball might have also burned up the years crops. So - instead of a dozen people dying and the guards finally putting down the creature - now, everyone will starve.

Genetics doesn't mean that the person is born responsible.

"OH, but he was possessed - not evil." Well - maybe it was because his family hid him and secretly had a mage teach him magic. Maybe - if he had obeyed that law - all of Redcliff wouldn't have been slaughtered. But - as you say - Conner had the right to practice wizardry.

Oh, but it's society that caused Isolde to hide Conner! Yes, let's blame society for our own personal evils and shortcomings. Isolde condemned her son with her own selfish act.

===

You know, they say that serial killers are genetically predisposed to doing what they do.

My argument is not that "Mages = serial killers". My argument is "genetics =/= free you from responsibility".

===

You say you would punish bad mages.

The Harrowing tests mages for weakness - would you accept that this is still a necessity for your free mages?

Or are we making room for genetics - but not for "survival of the fittest"? Should the morally lame be allowed to be corrupted by demons - kill hundreds - and then be killed?

I prefer a less reactionary solution to the mage problem.

[HTTP 404]

It kind of bothers me that many mages would turn to blood magic instead of dying. If it was me, I would rather die than turn to blood magic. In world were souls exist, I would much rather keep mine and lose my life than vice versa.

[GavrielKay]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@GavrielKay - so how about raising the dead? What if I raised one of your loved ones from the dead - because I could? Perhaps - I like "living dolls" and I raise children from the dead? I'm a mage - and I can - so it's my right, yes?

You really need a fireball to take down an ogre? I recommend something with a little less collateral damage. Because - in an actual literary setting, that same mage that "saved" the village with a fireball might have also burned up the years crops. So - instead of a dozen people dying and the guards finally putting down the creature - now, everyone will starve.

Genetics doesn't mean that the person is born responsible.

"OH, but he was possessed - not evil." Well - maybe it was because his family hid him and secretly had a mage teach him magic. Maybe - if he had obeyed that law - all of Redcliff wouldn't have been slaughtered. But - as you say - Conner had the right to practice wizardry.

Oh, but it's society that caused Isolde to hide Conner! Yes, let's blame society for our own personal evils and shortcomings. Isolde condemned her son with her own selfish act.

===

You know, they say that serial killers are genetically predisposed to doing what they do.

My argument is not that "Mages = serial killers". My argument is "genetics =/= free you from responsibility".

===

You say you would punish bad mages.

The Harrowing tests mages for weakness - would you accept that this is still a necessity for your free mages?

Or are we making room for genetics - but not for "survival of the fittest"? Should the morally lame be allowed to be corrupted by demons - kill hundreds - and then be killed?

I prefer a less reactionary solution to the mage problem.

Your confrontational style is not necessary.

I never said a mage has the right to do anything that he happens to be capable of doing.  Any more than an expert swordsman has the right to decapitate anyone he pleases for practice.  The "right" is to exist and be allowed to prove themselves good or bad as individuals.

If we agree that mages who actually commit crimes should be punished, then I'm not sure what the rest of the fight is about. 

If a mage attacks an ogre with a fireball and burns the crops, then presumably he starves along with the villagers.  That's pretty good incentive to make sure the fireball is necessary.  An ogre could kill the whole village, making the crops rather superfluous as well.  People make mistakes and should do their best to fix them, but singling out mages and magic as the end all be all of danger is not realistic.  A tsunami killed what, 100,000 people? in the modern world.  There are bad things that can happen to people.  Getting crazy doesn't help.  Taking reasonable precautions and paying attention to the world around you is always a good idea.

I said I believe that mages have the right to be free like anyone else.  And the same as anyone else, if they use their freedom to do bad things, they should be punished for it.  Raising the dead is most likely wrong (I'm not going to devote brain power to when it might be right, but moral absolutes are silly), and so is the local noble raping villagers because he feels entitled.  Mages do not have a monopoly on being wrong.

You may prefer a less reactionary policy, but that's where the inequality comes in. 

Few people would agree that every religious person should be locked up because fanatics among them are hard to spot before the tragedy happens.  It's just life.  There are bad apples, some of them cause grievous harm.  Everyone left behind has to pick up and carry on as well as possible.  it sucks, but you don't get to lock up everyone who might potentially harm you.

[GavrielKay]

HTTP 404 wrote...

It kind of bothers me that many mages would turn to blood magic instead of dying. If it was me, I would rather die than turn to blood magic. In world were souls exist, I would much rather keep mine and lose my life than vice versa.

Other than Chantry doctrine, which is decidedly biased against mages, there is no reason to believe your mage's soul is in any particular jeopardy from blood magic.  The Chantry uses blood in phylacteries to track down mages.  The Gray Wardens use blood to innoculate themselves against the taint and sense darkspawn.  They aren't exactly paragons of virtue, but the dragon cults use blood as well.

If your Hawke believes blood magic is the path to doom, so be it, but it's faith, not fact that tells us that.

I know precious few people who wouldn't do just about anything to survive.  Including kill.  If my religion was telling me I'd be better off dead than using what I know to survive, I'd find a new religion. 

[Melca36]

Its ignorant to assume that all mages want to become Blood Mages and are in it for the power.

Its also a mistake to assume that this war will only be mage VS Templar

There will likely be mages fighting Blood Mages as well as civilians taking the mages side as well.

The chantry/templars are hypocrites...they use blood magic to track apostates. The templars become addicted to lyrium when Alistair proved it was NOT needed.

DA:3 will reveal some dark secret of the Chantry that will change everything.

[Melca36]

GavrielKay wrote...



I know precious few people who wouldn't do just about anything to survive.  Including kill.  If my religion was telling me I'd be better off dead than using what I know to survive, I'd find a new religion. 

This!

The Chantry is full of hypocrites and I can't wait to see their secrets exposed in the next game.

I can't stand to see those sisters prancing around lowtown asking for donations.

[CrimsonZephyr]

HTTP 404 wrote...

It kind of bothers me that many mages would turn to blood magic instead of dying. If it was me, I would rather die than turn to blood magic. In world were souls exist, I would much rather keep mine and lose my life than vice versa.

Remember that the Circle had not only lawful mages and blood mages (which, while not inherently evil, is still highly illegal except under extraordinary circumstances), but also children and apprentices. Expecting little Billy, the 8 year old apprentice who has never done blood magic, to perform a heroic sacrifice or martyr themselves is a bit much. Instead of expecting mages to kill themselves rather than fight as a point of honor, why not expect Templars to not carry out extermination orders based on blatantly false pretenses? If you kick a dog hard and often enough, they will bite. It's not that they should bite, it's that one shouldn't kick them.

[HTTP 404]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

It kind of bothers me that many mages would turn to blood magic instead of dying. If it was me, I would rather die than turn to blood magic. In world were souls exist, I would much rather keep mine and lose my life than vice versa.

Remember that the Circle had not only lawful mages and blood mages (which, while not inherently evil, is still highly illegal except under extraordinary circumstances), but also children and apprentices. Expecting little Billy, the 8 year old apprentice who has never done blood magic, to perform a heroic sacrifice or martyr themselves is a bit much. Instead of expecting mages to kill themselves rather than fight as a point of honor, why not expect Templars to not carry out extermination orders based on blatantly false pretenses? If you kick a dog hard and often enough, they will bite. It's not that they should bite, it's that one shouldn't kick them.

I should have clarified in my original post.  I actually am for the mages fighting to survive.  When I see what is probably a nice mage turn into an abomination, I think I could never turn into a monster just to live.  Thats not a life worth living.  I should have stated "turn to demons" instead of "blood magic" in original post.  Even though one can lead to the other.

As for souls existing in game isn't Chantry "propaganda" its pretty much fact in game and in parts where we visit the Fade in DA:O.

I would much rather die fighting with my humanity than to lose my humanity to win.  Does that make sense?  what disappoints me is that many mages "turned  to demons" became abominations to survive.  Especially the innocent circle mages in the end of the game including Orsino.

Modifié par HTTP 404, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[GavrielKay]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I should have clarified in my original post.  I actually am for the mages fighting to survive.  When I see what is probably a nice mage turn into an abomination, I think I could never turn into a monster just to live.  Thats not a life worth living.  I should have stated "turn to demons" instead of "blood magic" in original post.  Even though one can lead to the other.

I would much rather die fighting with my humanity than to lose my humanity to win.  Does that make sense?  what disappoints me is that many mages "turned  to demons" became abominations to survive.  Especially the innocent circle mages in the end of the game including Orsino.

Ah, if we're talking die rather than become the puppet of a demon, I agree completely.  I don't know how many mages were supposed to have done it willingly vs. could no longer resist once fear for their lives took over, but I wouldn't want to do that myself.  Becoming an abomination (the sort we fight rather than the sort that Wynne and Anders become) appears to be just as good as death as far as the mage's "self" is concerned.

[The Baconer]

Harid wrote...
The point Medhia seemed to be making is you can't act and complain about not being treated like 'the normals' when you are clearly something other than normal.  This isn't sexual orientation, or skin color, these are people that can conjure fireballs, or mend a wound in seconds.  These people are nothing close to being normal, so expecting to be treated that way is naive at best and foolish at worst.  Either you would have to blend in by actively not using your magic, or you would have to admit that you are not normal [...] and understand that because of that, you will be, and it's neccessary to, treat you differently. 

I agree completely. The mundanes need to realize that they've been biologically outdated, and should take their proper place in servitude to those undeniably their greater.

[DPSSOC]

The Baconer wrote...
I agree completely. The mundanes need to realize that they've been biologically outdated, and should take their proper place in servitude to those undeniably their greater.

A species is not biologically outdated until it's extinct, and as far as undeniably goes well every mage that falls to a non-mage is a rather definitive denial wouldn't you agree.

[Harid]

The Baconer wrote...

Harid wrote...
The point Medhia seemed to be making is you can't act and complain about not being treated like 'the normals' when you are clearly something other than normal.  This isn't sexual orientation, or skin color, these are people that can conjure fireballs, or mend a wound in seconds.  These people are nothing close to being normal, so expecting to be treated that way is naive at best and foolish at worst.  Either you would have to blend in by actively not using your magic, or you would have to admit that you are not normal [...] and understand that because of that, you will be, and it's neccessary to, treat you differently. 

I agree completely. The mundanes need to realize that they've been biologically outdated, and should take their proper place in servitude to those undeniably their greater.

I love this guy.  This actually gets me to laugh, I thank you.

[Sepewrath]

There are lots of mages with integrity, hell even using blood magic doesn't make someone immoral, anyone with a sword can choose to be immoral, just look at all the immoral people with swords in this game as example. Look at DuPuis, he was using blood magic to try and save some woman and stop a killer, what a horrible person he is.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Sepewrath wrote...

There are lots of mages with integrity, hell even using blood magic doesn't make someone immoral, anyone with a sword can choose to be immoral, just look at all the immoral people with swords in this game as example. Look at DuPuis, he was using blood magic to try and save some woman and stop a killer, what a horrible person he is.

A better example would be Merrill. DuPuis wanted to learn the secrets of necromancy. While his body count prior to meeting Hawke is, as far as we know, zero, he wasn't chasing Quentin out of altruism. Still, though, the guy does help you if you let him live, instead of attacking you on sight.

[FieryDove]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

A better example would be Merrill. DuPuis wanted to learn the secrets of necromancy. While his body count prior to meeting Hawke is, as far as we know, zero, he wasn't chasing Quentin out of altruism. Still, though, the guy does help you if you let him live, instead of attacking you on sight.

If you magical fist him or have Aveline pummel him after all that remains you can learn more. He was not a nice man by any means.