462 réponses à ce sujet

[Durgon Ironfist]

Blacklash93 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Because the LGTB crowd is overly sensitive and whatever forbid that someone have a differing opinion. It's quite alright to want to be represented and "fighting" for it is something that's beautiful. But condemnation and labeling individual people who clearly have no beef but have a different viewpoint and lifestyle as anti this or that or calling them bigots makes your crowd seem like raving ******. Address individuals as what they are.

Point being try to be more mindful of who, what, and how you label individuals. You're acting as prejudiced as the actual bigots..

I definitely agree we can be overly sensitive. I'm guilty as charged with some other posters in this thread, although I have never called someone a homophobe or a bigot (even if I truly do believe that). I just can't stand ignorance or intolerance and I'll certainly call out someone's argument if I feel like I have to. I suppose it all just comes naturally after 4 years of passionate campaigning. Anyone to even consider taking away what we've worked at for so long just feels like a crime in itself. It's not very rational, but that's just how anyone would be in our shoes. It's not that we hate other opinions or don't believe they're valid, it's that any opinion in conflict with ours simply feels like an insult to what we've "fought" for in such a long time.

I don't regret calling out BSN89000, though. He was just spouting crap.

There's also a degree of hate toward the gay community. Posts from certain people calling the gay us "whiners" and "fanatics". Insults at Bioware for listening to our requests, for pandering, like we're not even worth considering. And accusing all of us of being overly sensitive is just plain false. Many of us have been very careful not to use words like homophobe or bigot and have even refrained from posting. If the entire gay community on BSN were to swoop down on these topics like shrill harpies... that would be much worse than what we're seeing now.

Is there a chance for us to get along? I doubt it. We're all on opposite sides of the spectrum and thus are in total oppositinion with our ideas and feeling on the issue. We can try to be civil, but ultimately our feelings will take over. It's best just to keep to ourselves and stay in our respective groups.

I do personnally believe you folks should have your S/S romance. However, I dissapprove if they choose a DA2 path. Mind you with DA2 most were new characters and could be defined as bisexual. So Hawke is friends with a lot of bisexual folks, I can see that as I am in real world. With Mass Effect we've known these characters for years, and such sudden change is not exactly welcome. With introduction of new characters both camps should have what they want and deserve.

With almost all of both former crews, their intrests are well known. Mind you I can understand a change as my uncle changed his lifestyle when he was left at the alter, but I cannot believe the entire crew changes overnight. Should they introduce an openly homosexual squadmate I'll treat him as anyone else, just will not pursue any romantic dialoge being a hetersexual man.

Both sides should attempt to see the view points of the other, and believe in compromise. Are some of our LGTB friends whiners? Yes. Are they all? No. Are some of the heteros bigots? Yes. Are they all? No. We do have common ground and should move foward.

[Siansonea]

Ryzaki wrote...

no no no it's not straight guys. Issac.

Its the Straight Male Gamer™. *not to be confused with gamers who happen to be straight.

THIS. There are actually quite a few straight guys who simply don't care, and don't get what all the fuss is about. I know plenty of them. They're usually of the "geez, what's the big deal?" point of view, and there is much eyebrow raising and chin stroking regarding the motivation of people who feel so strongly about the subject. 

[shepskisaac]

I especially gotta love how this thread and anti s/s crowd is all about "zomg you're trying to shut down our calm intelligent legitimate concerns!!!' yet just on the last 3 pages I've seen the same "gay is a choice" and "so why not a threesome?!" idiotic arguments used again as always. Somehow, after few pages of discussion, it just *always* comes out that it's not really about the game but 'gay is not right/immoral/religion' and all the standard excuses that have nothing to do with intelligent legitimate concerns.

Siansonea II wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

no no no it's not straight guys. Issac.

Its the Straight Male Gamer™. *not to be confused with gamers who happen to be straight.

THIS.
There are actually quite a few straight guys who simply don't care, and don't get what all the fuss is about. I know plenty of them. They're usually of the "geez, what's the big deal?" point of view, and there is much eyebrow raising and chin stroking regarding the motivation of people who feel so strongly about the subject. 

Which is why I said not all straight guys are like that, thank God. But it's a fact 99% of the complaining anti s/s threads are made by straight guys.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:07 .

[ElitePinecone]

MACharlie1 wrote...
I swear, one day I'm making a vlog where I show people how a real douchebag looks/acts. 

I've always thought people running around screaming about 'bros' were half-joking, or at least being ironic. 

I had no idea they could be serious. 

[Davie McG]

ElitePinecone wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
I swear, one day I'm making a vlog where I show people how a real douchebag looks/acts. 

I've always thought people running around screaming about 'bros' were half-joking, or at least being ironic. 

I had no idea they could be serious. 

I think it's an american thing, I don't know anyone who has genuinely and seriously called another person bro.

It sounds a bit naff to me.

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

I especially gotta love how this thread and anti s/s crowd is all about "zomg you're trying to shut down our calm intelligent legitimate concerns!!!' yet just on the last 3 pages I've seen the same "gay is a choice" and "so why not a threesome?!" idiotic arguments used again as always. Somehow, after few pages of discussion, it just *always* comes out that it's not really about the game but 'gay is not right/immoral/religion' and all the standard excuses that have nothing to do with intelligent legitimate concerns.

Siansonea II wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

no no no it's not straight guys. Issac.

Its the Straight Male Gamer™. *not to be confused with gamers who happen to be straight.

THIS.
There are actually quite a few straight guys who simply don't care, and don't get what all the fuss is about. I know plenty of them. They're usually of the "geez, what's the big deal?" point of view, and there is much eyebrow raising and chin stroking regarding the motivation of people who feel so strongly about the subject. 

Which is why I said not all straight guys are like that, thank God. But it's a fact 99% of the complaining anti s/s threads are made by straight guys.

Presumably. They sure feel the need to self-identify as straight males, for whatever reason. 

[shepskisaac]

Durgon Ironfist wrote...

I do personnally believe you folks should have your S/S romance. However, I dissapprove if they choose a DA2 path. Mind you with DA2 most were new characters and could be defined as bisexual. So Hawke is friends with a lot of bisexual folks, I can see that as I am in real world. With Mass Effect we've known these characters for years, and such sudden change is not exactly welcome. With introduction of new characters both camps should have what they want and deserve.

And for years GaySheps were running without a chance to romance anyone. And the only reason why it was the case is that gay population happens to be small, thus was deemed less important and the gay romances of Kaidan, Ashley, Jack & Thane were cut. If it wasn't for that, these character would've been available for s/s romances in ME1 & ME2 already. If we want to talk about a compromise, then lets talk about it. A compromise in the "we want old characters bi versus we don't want any old characters bi" debate is NOT "no old characters bi". A compromise should be logical and fair, which is "characters that were deemed compatible with bisexuality in the past by BW and were suppoused to be available for s/s romances in ME1/ME2 can be available for s/s romances in ME3". Means Kaidan, Ashley, Jack & Thane. That's a compromise, not "none old character can be bi" because it ain't fair, it ain't logical and frankly, it just ain't true because IMHO, the removal of an option to romance them didn't remove their attraction to the same gender in general, just as the removal of Tali's romance in ME1 didn't remove her attraction to the opposite gender in general and didn't make her asexual and later retconned into a heterosexual.

[MACharlie1]

Davie McG wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
I swear, one day I'm making a vlog where I show people how a real douchebag looks/acts. 

I've always thought people running around screaming about 'bros' were half-joking, or at least being ironic. 

I had no idea they could be serious. 

I think it's an american thing, I don't know anyone who has genuinely and seriously called another person bro.

It sounds a bit naff to me.

Oh they are real. Oh so real...the people who call James a douche don't know what an actual douchebag is. Names range from bro, homie, ****, ****, and my favorite - homeboy. 

EDIT: Word, dawg. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 19 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[The Elder King]

IsaacShep wrote...


And for years GaySheps were running without a chance to romance anyone. And the only reason why it was the case is that gay population happens to be small, thus was deemed less important and the gay romances of Kaidan, Ashley, Jack & Thane were cut. If it wasn't for that, these character would've been available for s/s romances in ME1 & ME2 already. If we want to talk about a compromise, then lets talk about it. A compromise in the "we want old characters bi versus we don't want any old characters bi" debate is NOT "no old characters bi". A compromise should be logical and fair, which is "characters that were deemed compatible with bisexuality in the past by BW and were suppoused to be available for s/s romances in ME1/ME2 can be available for s/s romances in ME3". Means Kaidan, Ashley, Jack & Thane. That's a compromise, not "none old character can be bi" because it ain't fair, it ain't logical and frankly, it just ain't true because IMHO, the removal of an option to romance them didn't remove their attraction to the same gender in general, just as the removal of Tali's romance in ME1 didn't remove her attraction to the opposite gender in general and didn't make her asexual and later retconned into a heterosexual.

Weren't Miranda and Jacob developed as bisexuals at the start? I didn't know anything about Jack and Thane (though there are proofs in ME2 that Jack is bi, or at least had lesbian experience).
Anyway I hope for the S/S crowd that there will not be only the new (probably two) squadmates as S/S LI. Though I can't really say who of the previous will be bisexuals.

[shepskisaac]

hhh89 wrote...

Weren't Miranda and Jacob developed as bisexuals at the start? I didn't know anything about Jack and Thane (though there are proofs in ME2 that Jack is bi, or at least had lesbian experience).
Anyway I hope for the S/S crowd that there will not be only the new (probably two) squadmates as S/S LI. Though I can't really say who of the previous will be bisexuals.

The realistic scenario IMO and based on what we already know is Kaidan, Vega, new female squadmate and perhaps Ashley (depending if BW treats Liara as "there already is a lesbian option with an old character" or not). Not for a second I consider there could be 3 or more gay and lesbian options introduced (either old or new), purely based on time constraints. All this "don't want everyone/majority to be bi" complaining is really pointless, it was obvious from the beginning it wouldn't happen and everybody knows that simply because it would take too much time to write s/s romances for all the potential squadmates in ME3 and then all the squadmates from ME1 & ME2. There's just too many of them.

[Pordis Shepard]

I seems that everyone agrees on no nijamancing. And imo calling the npc's bi is a bit inaccurate, since they won't be bi on a given playthrough (unless you gender change shep). So I really struggle to understand why ppl are against having more romance options. And IIRC bioware has stated that they are developing friendship dialog also rather than just romance interactions.

[LiaraShepard]

the more options we have the more choices we get, and if the romances are well written what's the problem with giving each person the same variety of choices? it's not the case that the characters are automatically bisexual when they are available for both genders. in DA2 wasn't a hint that anders hits on men if you played as female hawke. it doesn't change their character. and to be honest, it's only fair to give all gamers the same chance. would heterosexual gamers be happy if there were so many people complaining that there are too much f/m romances. you always say, it's bad that DA2 has the same possibilities for everyone. but would you have been glad, if morrigan was only available to female characters? I don't think so.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[Davie McG]

LiaraShepard wrote...

the more options we have the more choices we get, and if the romances are well written what's the problem with giving each person the same variety of choices? it's not the case that the characters are automatically bisexual when they are available for both genders. in DA2 wasn't a hint that anders hits on men if you played as female hawke. it doesn't change their character. and to be honest, it's only fair to give all gamers the same chance. would heterosexual gamers be happy if there were so many people complaining that there are too much f/m romances. you always say, it's bad that DA2 has the same possibilities for everyone. but would you have been glad, if morrigan was only available to female characters? I don't think so.

I think that's taking things to extremes.

I agree there should be both s/s and normal relationships in ME3 but I don't agree that characters that have been straight the whole way through the series should suddenly become gay.

There are current characters that have alluded to bisexual tendances such as Kelly and Jack, those being available for s/s romance wouldn't be a surprise. I would be fine with that, or if someone who hasn't declared any sexual preference such as Joker I suppose I could live with cause some people do just turn out to be gay. 

However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Having new characters that are available romance options for both sexes is a welcome thing and doesn't bother me in the slightest, changing something as fundamental to a person's character as sexual preference however, does.

Modifié par Davie McG, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:25 .

[leggywillow]

Davie McG wrote...
However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Garrus not being a bisexual option from the beginning doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  If you're going to have sex with a radically different species, you'd think male or female would be pretty unimportant by that point.

"I'm having sex with a gorilla!"
"WHAT?!"
"Don't worry, it's a lady gorilla."
"Oh, thank god."

[Melra]

leggywillow wrote...

Davie McG wrote...
However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Garrus not being a bisexual option from the beginning doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  If you're going to have sex with a radically different species, you'd think male or female would be pretty unimportant by that point.

"I'm having sex with a gorilla!"
"WHAT?!"
"Don't worry, it's a lady gorilla."
"Oh, thank god."

^

Also, I giggled.

[Deviija]

Sexual preference is not so fundamental to a character that it suddenly changes everything about their personality, abilities, and/or characterization. Alistair would still be the snarky, ginger-haired Grey Warden. Garrus would still be your wingman and conflicted good guy. They would *not* suddenly begin to mince around and wear feather boas and talk to you in graphic detail about the sex they got up to last night, nor would they somehow turn into a different class or manifest an entirely different personality than what has been portrayed. They would just happen to like men instead of women, or both men and women. The only thing that changes is your perception of them based solely on their sexual orientation.

[Davie McG]

leggywillow wrote...

Davie McG wrote...
However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Garrus not being a bisexual option from the beginning doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  If you're going to have sex with a radically different species, you'd think male or female would be pretty unimportant by that point.

"I'm having sex with a gorilla!"
"WHAT?!"
"Don't worry, it's a lady gorilla."
"Oh, thank god."

I don't know so much, lady gorilla sounds alot less scary than a man one, I don't think you'd have a whole lot of choice if a guy gorilla decided to have his way with you.

[LiaraShepard]

Davie McG wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...

the more options we have the more choices we get, and if the romances are well written what's the problem with giving each person the same variety of choices? it's not the case that the characters are automatically bisexual when they are available for both genders. in DA2 wasn't a hint that anders hits on men if you played as female hawke. it doesn't change their character. and to be honest, it's only fair to give all gamers the same chance. would heterosexual gamers be happy if there were so many people complaining that there are too much f/m romances. you always say, it's bad that DA2 has the same possibilities for everyone. but would you have been glad, if morrigan was only available to female characters? I don't think so.

I think that's taking things to extremes.

I agree there should be both s/s and normal relationships in ME3 but I don't agree that characters that have been straight the whole way through the series should suddenly become gay.

There are current characters that have alluded to bisexual tendances such as Kelly and Jack, those being available for s/s romance wouldn't be a surprise. I would be fine with that, or if someone who hasn't declared any sexual preference such as Joker I suppose I could live with cause some people do just turn out to be gay. 

However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Having new characters that are available romance options for both sexes is a welcome thing and doesn't bother me in the slightest, changing something as fundamental to a person's character as sexual preference however, does.

I see your point. the problem is, that all gamers have their favorites by this time. and it may be difficult to accept a new character that you only get to know in the last game. no offense, but I think it's hard for a heterosexual gamer to understand how it is, when you can't date the character you always loved. as for me, I love miranda and ashley. and then it might well be that jack is the bisexual option, though I didn't like her at all. straight gamers always had the possibility to choose another one. I know one cannot please everyone, but bisexuality allows every gamer to be happy. I'd feel okay, if you could choose your sexuality at the beginning of the game, though. and if you choose "heterosexuality" only the female characters hits on you and vice versa. would it be a deal?

[FoxHound109]

Good Lord, this thread's still going?!?

[Davie McG]

Deviija wrote...


Sexual preference is not so fundamental to a character that it suddenly changes everything about their personality, abilities, and/or characterization. Alistair would still be the snarky, ginger-haired Grey Warden. Garrus would still be your wingman and conflicted good guy. They would *not* suddenly begin to mince around and wear feather boas and talk to you in graphic detail about the sex they got up to last night, nor would they somehow turn into a different class or manifest an entirely different personality than what has been portrayed. They would just happen to like men instead of women, or both men and women. The only thing that changes is your perception of them based solely on their sexual orientation.

I'm not saying I would suddenly want to abandon that character or kill him off in some virmirey way just because he was gay.

I'm just saying people don't change sexual preference the same as or as flippantly as they do their hair colour, it would be a highly unexpected change for that character. That's all.

Edit: @ LiaraShepard:
I suppose I can sympathize where your coming from, but real life isn't like that, and by the sounds of it you already know this. I wouldn't be opposed to a sexual orientation option during character creation, it would solve a lot of bickering.

To be honest I wouldn't find it game breaking if they did make everyone bisexual but I would find it irritating.

Modifié par Davie McG, 19 juillet 2011 - 04:44 .

[BatmanPWNS]

If only Bioware had never implanted a romance sub-plot in the first place.

[FoxHound109]

Davie McG wrote...

I'm not saying I would suddenly want to abandon that character or kill him off in some virmirey way just because he was gay.

I'm just saying people don't change sexual preference the same as flippantly as they do their hair colour, it would be a highly unexpected change for that character. That's all.

That's only because your mind has been trained to think that heterosexuality is the norm, which is fine because most people ARE heterosexual. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sexuality of these characters (minus Liara) has never been outright stated, has it? If Kaiden suddenly decided he wanted male Shepard I see no reason to believe he couldn't be bisexual, for example. It's not that far fetched, really.

[kumquats]

leggywillow wrote...

Davie McG wrote...
However if someone such as Garuss, who so far has only been portrayed as straight with no allusions to the contrary, suddenly began to declare his undying love for male Shep, then I think it would be detrimental in terms of character consistency.

Garrus not being a bisexual option from the beginning doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  If you're going to have sex with a radically different species, you'd think male or female would be pretty unimportant by that point.

"I'm having sex with a gorilla!"
"WHAT?!"
"Don't worry, it's a lady gorilla."
"Oh, thank god."

No way, a Turian with and without lipstick will make all the difference.

[Inquisitor Recon]

BatmanPWNS wrote...
If only Bioware had never implanted a romance sub-plot in the first place.

This.

Despite the false indignation and persecution complex of a few of the S/Sers here, it's a simple as them wanting Bioware to give them something. Yet many are under the impression that Bioware owes them and ought to change pre-existing characters around for their sake.

I would have always opposed this on the basis of this being a waste of time and development resources for reasons unrelated to sound business strategy or common sense, shameless pandering to a community who foam at the mouth and scream "HOMOPHOBE" at anybody who disagrees with them, and inconsiderate to those who don't want to sleep with every character regardless of gender and don't want their sexuality changed to meet the whims of fanboys. The trainwreck that was DA2 only added to this.

[Davie McG]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Davie McG wrote...

I'm not saying I would suddenly want to abandon that character or kill him off in some virmirey way just because he was gay.

I'm just saying people don't change sexual preference the same as flippantly as they do their hair colour, it would be a highly unexpected change for that character. That's all.

That's only because your mind has been trained to think that heterosexuality is the norm, which is fine because most people ARE heterosexual. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sexuality of these characters (minus Liara) has never been outright stated, has it? If Kaiden suddenly decided he wanted male Shepard I see no reason to believe he couldn't be bisexual, for example. It's not that far fetched, really.

I think thats fair with some characters but not all, and a few have alluded to previous relationships such as Garuss and Jacob and Kelly and Jack (Others I'm not sure off the top of my head).

But otherwise I think I'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.