16 réponses à ce sujet

[Krazy Solo]

Ok I'm just running through classes learning about them.

I assume I understand how Backstab works, but chime in if i mention something inaccurate.

Ok to maximize Stalker damage potential I would want to use Long Sword, Short Sword, Katanas, Scimitars, Clubs, and Quarterstaff.  Since all these weapon types are compatible with Backstab.

I'm assuming Ranger is classified as Fighter so they recieve fighter THAC0 progression,  Recieving slower Backstab progression up to x4, Recieving Fighter HLA.  Ranger get 2 into 2 weapon style at start so only need 1 point more to maximize the use of it.  Ranger is allowed specialization of any weapon(2 points).  The kit is then restricted to studded leather or lower.  The kit recieves bonus spells(haste, pfmw, minor spell deflect).

Basically from what I learned and read Stalkers are basically a Backstabbing fighter without the hassle of playing a thief.  Meaning the kit is a specialist?

My question on the class is what would the prefer stats look like?  I'm guessing 18/-- str, 18 dex, 18 con, 16 int, 14 wis, 10 cha would be the best possible roll?  The other question I had how do they fair later in game compare to other likewise class/kits?

Shame the old forums not available as an archive of information....

[morbidest2]

IMHO the drawback to this kit is that in most of SoA your basic backstab multiplier is only x2 and in most of ToB it will be x3. So you sneak around in the shadows, deliver your one semi-mighty blow, and then either gulp an invisibility potion or else battle it out in your leather (later elven chain, and then dragon scale) armor, taking damage like mad. Because of the puny backstab multiplier, I would argue that you only have one real weapon choice in SoA: quarterstaff, since you need the impact of a 2 handed weapon for your one shot blow to mean anything. ToB will be different with all the super weapons, but you've got to get there first. I assume the logic behind this class is that you don't want to waste space on having a pure thief in the party, so you'll gimp thru using ranger skills and having a mage casting Luck on you for tough traps. Personally, I would rather Swashbuckle without a bs multiplier, but with excellent thief skills and rapid promotion on the rogue level progression table. But each to his own.
Your stat distribution makes sense, but I wonder how much the Int=16 is really going to do for you, since the mage spells you will eventually be allowed to use are rather limited. Int=11 and higher wisdom?? Also since your SoA armor will be inferior, I would consider going elf to get dex=19 (even if it means that Viconia will never love me  ) and improve my ducking abilities.
Somehow the logic of this kit escapes me. It seems designed for nighttime battles in open country, but the great majority of tough fights are indoors after BG1.  

Modifié par morbidest2, 19 juillet 2011 - 09:20 .

[Krazy Solo]

Interesting information... As for the stat placement I was concidering the mindflayers drain int combat abilities. I heard that 16 int is a safe way to avoid dying. For the wisdom really no need to go above 14 which is the minimum for ranger since I will be only casting the few buff spells exclusively.

Armor wise really not an issue since some of the best leather base armor is available shortly after leaving I.D... True to each their own, but I plan on playing each class/kit once through before I stop playing again. This way I will know what I enjoy the most which class/kit I will enjoy running through on higher difficulty playthroughs.

Yet I appreciate the input... Others are welcome.

[polytope]

Stalker kit actually gets x3 backstab at lvl 9, and x4 backstab at lvl 17 (late SoA) - the in game description is in error - so it is just a little behind a fighter/thief multiclass for backstabbing purposes, and you'll have better hp and THAC0 progression than f/t multi.

Minor spell deflection can be a lifesaver, although it doesn't stop 8th and 9th level spells, it will stop any lesser spell (including PW:Stun, Finger of Death).

The armor is the only real drawback - if you're playing a human stalker with equal or better stats to Valygar you can actually borrow his armor, which is probably the best in SoA for a stalker because of the resistances it grants. The toughest armor a stalker can wear is the white dragon scale, AC-2, which is better than most plate.

[Krazy Solo]

What would be Valygar's Statistics? Never really used him before so be interesting what his armor is like. Although shame I rolled a Half-Elf so i had higher resistance to sleep and charm. Would hurt to have this information for future playthroughs.

Had a feeling Stalker was stronger than the description was displaying. So that means Stalker will be pretty good throughout the game then taper off at the end when other backstabbers become better?

As for the concept behind the kit...  It seems to be something along the line of being a covert agent who dabble in the arts of assassination, but also has the classic ranger training with martial combat.  Essentially the kit is ment to be the swashbuckler counter for fighter types.  A thief that doesn't have skills but can backstab with warrior thac0 and skills.

Modifié par Krazy Solo, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[morbidest2]

Val's family armor is AC=2, with some resistance to charm, fire, acid and magic damage. But like most "family" equipment no one outside his bloodline is supposed to be able to use it. Wether the Stalker kit makes your PC one of his 2nd cousins, is something you would have to check out experimentally.  The major issue with his stats is Str=17, which means he can't use some of the best bows until you give him an aid such as a strength belt.

Modifié par morbidest2, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[ussnorway]

Krazy Solo wrote...

What would be Valygar's Statistics? Never really used him before so be interesting what his armor is like. Although shame I rolled a Half-Elf so i had higher resistance to sleep and charm. Would hurt to have this information for future playthroughs.

A human Stalker (single class) with DEX18 or higher can use his armour.

p.s. I use Valygar alot as my door stop i.e. send him in cloaked and let him hold them whilst my casters nuke the area with AOE spells... {mild spoiler} for best results also take Mazzy because they both go burko if they see the other take heavy damage.  {end mild spoiler}

Modifié par ussnorway, 20 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .

[hannibal555]

Fighter/Thieves are actually better backstabbers: 5 * in Quarterstaff and 2* in 2handed-weapons and you'll go crazy. Later on the THAC0 progression will catch up and eventually even be equalized.
Plus as a thief you'll eventually be able to cast spells by using scrolls.
So in the end there are no real disadvantages but MUCH more damage plus the super HLA of Use Any Item.

Quick comparison (around 1.4 Million XP without Strength modifier, maximum points allowed in one weapon):
F/T (Level 10/13) has X5 Backstab, THAC0 11-2 (5*) = 9, 1 extra damage because of 5* versus 2*
Stalker (Level 12) has X3 Backstab, THAC0 9-1 (2*) = 8
So the F/T is even midgame one lousy point worse in THAC0 but dishes out damage like crazy and isn't even restricted in armor.

For another powerfull build go Kensai 13->Thief x (Kensai 9->Thief x will do, too).
I didn't test it myself, but I read in forums, that the added damage the Kensai gets will get multiplied by the backstab
and this results in some insane damage, combine this with his Ki ability.

But to compare a multi class to a Kit is a bit unfair, and using a Stalker will definitely work, though I couldn't stand playing one because in my mind I'd always draw the comparison to the superior F/T.

Modifié par hannibal555, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:54 .

[polytope]

hannibal555 wrote...

Fighter/Thieves are actually better backstabbers: 5 * in Quarterstaff and 2* in 2handed-weapons and you'll go crazy. Later on the THAC0 progression will catch up and eventually even be equalized.
Plus as a thief you'll eventually be able to cast spells by using scrolls.
So in the end there are no real disadvantages but MUCH more damage plus the super HLA of Use Any Item.

Fighter thief multis are only allowed two stars in weapons.

I won't compare the UAI HLA to anything rangers get, because like many ToB HLAs it is badly designed anyway; about half of them are pointless and the other half are game breaking.

hannibal555 wrote...
Quick comparison (around 1.4 Million XP without Strength modifier, maximum points allowed in one weapon):
F/T (Level 10/13) has X5 Backstab, THAC0 11-2 (5*) = 9, 1 extra damage because of 5* versus 2*
Stalker (Level 12) has X3 Backstab, THAC0 9-1 (2*) = 8
So the F/T is even midgame one lousy point worse in THAC0 but dishes out damage like crazy and isn't even restricted in armor.

It's more like four points by the end of SoA, and substantially less hp because half of the (averaged) HD are d6.

I'm not arguing a fighter/thief is weak, that would be silly - the stalker is slightly worse off for backstab, but gets stealth for "free" in comparison to point allocation of f/ts and is a little better in straight combat.

For another powerfull build go Kensai 13->Thief x (Kensai 9->Thief x will do, too).
I didn't test it myself, but I read in forums, that the added damage the Kensai gets will get multiplied by the backstab
and this results in some insane damage, combine this with his Ki ability.

It does, a K>T is by far the best for backstabbing because of the natural damage bonus, but dual classing is not for every player. Maybe if soloing, I would prefer a f/t or thief of some kind to a stalker.

[amanasleep]

Ultimately, Stalkers are slightly suboptimal vs F/T because UAI is so good. The major stalker advantages are HP and Thac0, as mentioned, as well as Armor of Faith, Bless, Aid, Chant (increase backstab damage), and especially Dispel Magic (since BG2 does not impose max casting levels on Rangers or Paladins). The Mage spells really help in saving on potions, since every Stalker Haste saves a Potion of Speed, and MSD saves on Magic Blocking, etc. while soloing. Pro Normal Missiles is surprisingly good when soloing SCS2, since you can get it in time to protect you from a number of annoying early encounters, particularly with thieves in Athkatla.

[hannibal555]

polytope wrote...

Fighter thief multis are only allowed two stars in weapons.

Oh dear, I mixed it up with the dual Fighter-> Thief. You're right, of course.

By the way, the multi F/T will have the same 0 THAC0 as the Stalker at around 6.5 Mill XP.
I know, It's late, but the difference beforehand isn't that big either and hardly has any effect.
The difference in HP is marginal as well.

All in all I'd say a F/T does more damage and is more versatile, though a Stalker is fun, too, and simpler to play.

Playing a Kensai9->Fighter isn't that hard, because Level 10 Thief will be gained pretty fast.

In the end, I'd say all are fun to play with their own flavor.

[Krazy Solo]

Not to take away from your opinion Hannibal555, but your bias toward Fighter/Thief is somewhat related to your playing style.

Where I respect your decision to choose such a combination of classes, I'm in firm belief that a single class specialized to do a specific thing will be more suitable for party play vs the freedom of the F/T combination. Must players whom played the game alot prefer a challenge and such playthrough solo, or optimized to the point even the toughest battles are maid trivial.

I've walked away from power gaming long time ago.

I appreciate what has been noted, although some of it not exactly what I was looking for. Any further discusion may lead to further understanding.

[hannibal555]

Krazy Solo wrote...

...your bias toward Fighter/Thief is somewhat related to your playing style..

Exactly! But I clearly stated as well:

In the end, I'd say all are fun to play with their own flavor.

...I've walked away from power gaming long time ago...

Hmm, then it is pretty obsolete to talk about pros and cons about a special class/kit in the first place, isnt it? ^^
Since you can take a random class with random stats and random weapon skills and still finish vanilla game with your party without much effort.

By the way, I'm not exactly a powergamer, I just like effective characters.
I'd rather make the game harder (e.g., mods like ascension,anvil or scs2) than the character weaker to increase difficulty.


That said, I'll try to be more helpful this time .
The stats you mentioned are solid though anything beyond 11 Int is a bit over the top.
11 Int lets you survive two Mindflayer attacks that may drain 5 Int per attack.

Choosing the right weapons is a bit more difficult, at least in the beginning when there aren't this much points to distribute.
If going with quarterstaff (Staff of the Ram), put 2 points each in 2handed weapons and quarterstaff obviously.

If going with 1handed weapons there is more variety.
Style wise, I'd say both, dual weapon style and single weapon style, are both equally good.
The former can result in one extra attack for your main hand (weapons like Belm give their extra attack to the main hand regardless if held off-hand) the latter gives you better AC and a double chance of landing criticals.

weapon wise there are these weopons interesting for a backstabber (I guess there are more I forgot), sorted by category:

Scimitar
- Belm (extra attack, available early)
- Yamato, Scimitar +4 (speed factor 0!)
- Spectral Brand, Scimitar +4/+5 (speed factor 1)
Katana
- Celestial Fury
Short Swort
- Short Sword of Backstabbing +3
- Cutthroat, Short Sword +4 (speed factor 1)
- Short Sword of Mask +4/+5 (speed factor 0)
Dagger
- Dagger of the Star +4/+5 (speed factor 0)
Long Sword
- Angurvadal, Long Sword +4/+5 (0 Speed Factor!)

My choice would be Short Sword and Scimitar, though Angurvadal is a pretty nice weapon, too.

Modifié par hannibal555, 23 juillet 2011 - 03:05 .

[Krazy Solo]

Hmm... Stalkers get 2 points in two weapon style, with 5 points to be placed. I was thinking i could put 1 in scimitars, shortswords, longswords, and clubs, then last one to make 3 in Two Weapon Style. This would allow me early on in BG2 to have variety in weapons, while still being able to deal with clay golems should the need arise. True club weapons are few in wide rare in quality, but a +3 is available early in the game should I have the coins for it. As are some good longswords available early on. Really can't beat shortswords for backstabbing until ToB anyways.

[ussnorway]

Krazy Solo wrote...

Hmm... Stalkers get 2 points in two weapon style, with 5 points to be placed. I was thinking i could put 1 in scimitars, shortswords, longswords, and clubs, then last one to make 3 in Two Weapon Style. This would allow me early on in BG2 to have variety in weapons, while still being able to deal with clay golems should the need arise. True club weapons are few in wide rare in quality, but a +3 is available early in the game should I have the coins for it. As are some good longswords available early on. Really can't beat shortswords for backstabbing until ToB anyways.

I'd also put the extra point into two weapon fighting (and It's your game) but I'd pick a weapon type and put two into it at the start eg. using two longswords with two points in them will give you much better bang for your buck than a club and shortsword with a point in each.

After you have some experience behind you then pick a second weapon (axe, hammer or katana are all solid picks) once you have a better collection available to you.

Modifié par ussnorway, 24 juillet 2011 - 07:31 .

[Krazy Solo]

Once I've finished my current playthrough challenge I will be taking a good look at this class closely. It interest me as it will lvl faster than a multiclass fighter/thief in some areas, but lack the theif skills, but there are plenty of thieves in the game that can deal with things thieves are needed for.

[ussnorway]

I play the stalker as a fighter that happens to specialise in stealth (a useful skill in no reload runs ) but the biggest difference in a un-modded game would probably be the strongholds.