67 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackLotus30]

Hey I would have loved him killing my PC, if she had refused

[KalosCast]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Heh don't think we're arguing so much as he wouldn't do the same thing to you if you're refuse as to the grounds that you believe that Duncan swung first!
This court finds in favor of the bearded one, dismissed!

He didn't swing first, but he definitely initiated combat. He didn't try very hard to talk Jory down or reason with him, just pulled out a blade and charged.

And besides, if you watch it frame by frame, Han Solo actually pokes out of the bushes and shoots before any of them swing.

It's evidence that Duncan doesn't **** about.

Modifié par KalosCast, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:27 .

[BluesMan1956]

Methinks you should have joined the Chantry

[ReubenLiew]

Oh lordy, so Duncan and Ser Jory will be the next han solo vs that merc guy? This will be pretty hilarious



And no, he didn't initiate combat. Jory drew his weapon, Duncan drew his weapon. Jory swung first, and Duncan parries, therefore Jory attacked and Duncan defended himself.



Whether or not he was right in not talking him down is another matter all together.

[BlackLotus30]

Han Solo and Greedo..... Han Solo shot first XD But hey we all know Duncan's beard of awsomness killed Jory

[KalosCast]

BlackLotus30 wrote...

Han Solo and Greedo..... Han Solo shot first XD But hey we all know Duncan's beard of awsomness killed Jory

And if you'd bothered to read your codex, you'd realize that Jory was actually a Sargeant Barber in his knight order and was just trying to touch it up a bit before your battle.

[Devilsway]

KalosCast wrote...

So you're mad about the RPG doing what EVERY RPG does in the beginning, which is set up the plot... and you think it's more realistic that Duncan would make special concession to force you to do the ritual but would flat out kill Jory for refusing it?

No, you're probably too stupid to shut your mouth in a rainstorm to prevent from drowning... you'll hate this game.

HAHA I love it

[BlackLotus30]

KalosCast wrote...

BlackLotus30 wrote...

Han Solo and Greedo..... Han Solo shot first XD But hey we all know Duncan's beard of awsomness killed Jory

And if you'd bothered to read your codex, you'd realize that Jory was actually a Sargeant Barber in his knight order and was just trying to touch it up a bit before your battle.

lol really must be a bug with my game then...didn't get that entry 

[kormesios]

The setup was great. Like others said: You get an example of what happens if you want to refuse. I guess, technically, they could have given you an option to refuse, after which you die and create a new character who's more altruistic and/or has better self-preservation instincts. But it's spelled out pretty clearly. My elf was planning to argue a bit, but decided not to make an issue of it after Ser Jory went down.



Forcing the Darkspawn blood down your throat does nothing for the plot, since it doesn't force you to be loyal. They'd just have to kill you when you tried to desert anyway.



I'm not buying the "Jory attacked first" claim, and even if I did, Duncan's pretty clear if you press him: "There is no turning back."



Does make me chuckle when everyone says what a good man he was.

[BlackLotus30]

Duncan was a Murderer before he joined the Grey Wardens he is not a "good" man but that doesn't mean he can't be nice or civil to other people.

[Seagloom]

I will agree with one thing: the dialogue options after the Joining sucked. I didn't like how there was only one response questioning Jory's death; nor how overly polite it was. I had no problem continuing the game, and really, it would be crazy not to take your chances with the darkspawn blood after seeing Jory get stabbed. However, there should have been a fourth response for those of us who found Duncan's act heinous. It felt like I was forced to let him off easy for killing a man that wasn't deserving of death.

[kormesios]

BlackLotus30 wrote...

Duncan was a Murderer before he joined the Grey Wardens he is not a "good" man but that doesn't mean he can't be nice or civil to other people.

More than one person describes his a good man later on, not "civil" and not more appropriate words like "tireless", "indefatigable", "selfless", etc.  Alistair does it repeatedly.

It does seem that his ruthless pursuit of his goals should move things beyond "good", especially for Alistair.  However valid those goals were.

On a related note, I *LOVED* the dynamic before and at the joining, with the thief, drafted unwillingly, decides it must be done to stop the darkspawn; while the knight loses all his resolve, mostly out of personal fear.

[Shady314]

I was so grateful to Duncan. Finally someone shut that guy up. Where was the slap Duncan on the back dialogue option?

[Setz69]

KalosCast wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Heh don't think we're arguing so much as he wouldn't do the same thing to you if you're refuse as to the grounds that you believe that Duncan swung first!
This court finds in favor of the bearded one, dismissed!

He didn't swing first, but he definitely initiated combat. He didn't try very hard to talk Jory down or reason with him, just pulled out a blade and charged.

And besides, if you watch it frame by frame, Han Solo actually pokes out of the bushes and shoots before any of them swing.

It's evidence that Duncan doesn't **** about.

Goto 3:15. Jory strikes first, Duncan parries and han solo shoots him from the bushes >.>

As for not becoming a gray warden, well I think your SoL. Every playthrough i've done yet (Daelish, City Elf, Human noble) starts with duncan saving my ass if I agree to be a gray warden. So if you don't agree, your games over before it begun.

They wouldn't force the darkspawn blood down your throat. They'd slice you. Into little bits. Ala Jory.

[Saurel]

Main quest-line may be disappointing for you....but there are plenty of rewarding detours along the way.



Even though others disagree, I think Duncan is the sort that would have killed Jory regardless. That is if they couldn't force him to drink the blood...I can't imagine it being very dramatic if they did - it would be kinda funny Especially if he lived.

[Dark83]

He had to kill Jory. Any Grey Wardens involved in any Joining ritual would have to.
To defeat the Blight, a Warden needs to strike the killing blow on the archdemon. At the same time, there is a high price to pay - every Warden will eventually succumb to the taint.
In order words, it's a death sentance. Either you die drinking it, or you die later. This is the sort of thing that makes recruitment numbers go down.
The problem with that? If recruitment goes down and you're short Grey Wardens (hell, just be short TWO in this situation) then the world ENDS. So you can't let anyone know the secret.

The backgrounds are interesting. Both dwarves have nowhere else to go. The mage and an elf get conscripted out of trouble, so they have no choice. The other elf has to do it or he dies.

The reason your character never actively resists is because he's not stupid. You already know (if you'd questioned Duncan) there's no turning back, and now you know exactly what they mean. You either die, or you're a Warden. What would resisting do?

If they had to force it down your throat, then you lack the dedication and will needed. So they wouldn't bother. You knew it could kill you walking to the ritual (which is a walk you had no choice in). Why would you resist at the last second, unless it was cowardance like Jory?

In death, sacrifice.
Jory was found lacking. What's worse, it is said (in every origin) that joining the Grey Wardens means leaving your life behind - and he was a volunteer. If you spoke to him, he meant to go out, kill some things, and go home to his wife and kids a hero. He chose his path - poorly.

...also, what's the point of not joining the Grey Wardens? Isn't that the entire promotional material for the game, and the entire premise? Join the Wardens, save the world?

Modifié par Dark83, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:52 .

[kormesios]

Setz69 wrote...


Goto 3:15. Jory strikes first, Duncan parries and han solo shoots him from the bushes >.>

Sorry, the jury has now reviewed the evidence and Duncan does not get off with self defence.

Jory draws, but his stance is purely defensive--he's backing up against a wall, sword in front of him pointing up.  Duncan draws and starts advancing, dagger clearly in an offensive stance--pointing towards Jory.  As Jory is out of room to retreat, he strikes weakly--at Duncan's *dagger*.  It's a parry, not an attack.  Duncan then guts him.

The whole dynamic is really what most people remember: Jory's choices are to drink the blood, or die.  Duncan is executing a deserter, not striking in self-defence.

Take your pick about what this means in the middle of wartime, it's not necessarily evil.  Jory did agree to join, supposedly (although *I* wasn't told their was no turning back).  But yeah, in this case Duncan == Han Solo.  The both attacked first.

[Mad Method]

There seems to be a severe misunderstanding here. The problem isn't just a question of refusing Duncan; it's a question of how the violence and brutality is unnecessarily forced and how the PC is unable to express proper disgust and anger. Our generally kind and understanding Duncan, instead of calming Jory down, explaining the situation (drink or die, but in nicer terms, and pointing out that deaths are the exception, not the rule), and coaxing him into drinking it (if that completely failed, then death), actually increases the pressure, intimidates him, then kills him before it even got to a point where killing was really necessary. He then follows it up with verbally browbeating you into proceeding. And, throughout this all, there are no real options for you to express your outrage at how badly Duncan handled that situation or how you're being shanghaied into it. Instead your only options are variations on calm acceptance.

The issue, then, isn't even that you're forced along a specific plot ("railroading") but rather that you don't get to decide how your own character feels about it all because the game doesn't give you the choice.

Modifié par Mad Method, 21 novembre 2009 - 01:31 .

[Original182]

Yes I agree with what kormesios said. To say Duncan is evil for killing Jory is a bit redundant, because he will do WHATEVER it takes to stop the Blight.



Duncan would even go so far as to use Blood Magic if it helps to stop the Blight, despite him seeing how dangerous it can be firsthand. It was when he followed his mentor somewhere, and on the road, a blood mage was beset by templars.



You learn about this if you play the mage backstory.

[Original182]

Yeah what Mad Method said. The OP isn't upset that he is forced to be a Grey Warden against his will. He wants more options, or a more "evil" response to Duncan after becoming a Grey Warden.



Probably having the blood forced down your throat was an unrealistic scenario that the OP gave, but the point was there weren't any less polite, more rude, and shocked conversation responses.

[jbann311]

Jory was a coward, he got what was coming to him. He would of died at Ostagar anyway.

[Driveninhifi]

Man, if you don't like that part you are going to hate the ending.

[Moorkh]

I guess I wasn't clear enough. As Mad Method and others stated, I don't mind being required to become a Grey Warden in the end (while it is not part of the set up, it is a useful plot device). There will be situations where others restrict your options in this and any other games, that is clear.

However, my problem is that the game doesn't allow me to stay "in character", a character it has encouraged me to develop this far. Now she just stands there, passively, emotionally detached for the whole scene and then at most gets to politely ask if that was necessary, no matter if this fits to her character or not.

My character is a rogue, surviving with her skill at words and deception, wary of the established order of things. Up to that point, my character was offered choices that more or less let her act in that manner. At the ritual, there weren't any. No arguing, no resistance, simply accepting thinly-veiled murder and sacrificing her life like a lamb to the slaughter for a cause that she didn't believe in. The game doesn't even really make a case for the necessity of the ritual to this point - there is nothing to suggest the bad guys couldn't be defeated without the taint.
I would've gladly accepted death as the consequence of a dialogue choice. However, I don't think Duncan went through all that effort to just kill of all of his recruits - he apparently very much needs replacents to refill the ranks of the Wardens...

I really hope this is just one clumsy oversight and not the rule for the rest of the game. Someone noted I wouldn't like the ending. I certainly don't want to play a self-rightoeus ass. So again I ask: will I have a chance to stab Duncan and his ilk in their collective backs later on, shoving my disgust in their faces?

P.S.: Thank you for the "stupid" on that third reply. I had heard this game was for a mature audience. Another misconception?

Modifié par Moorkh, 21 novembre 2009 - 10:31 .

[Shady314]

And I hate that there is no option for me to clap then chug the bloodbrew. Alas not every option can be accounted for and programmed in.

[SeanMurphy2]

A game won't have alll the roleplaying choices you want. I suppose you have to use your imagination that you were forced into taking the ceremony and you hate Duncan.



Ultimately you have to still stop the Blight from destroying the Kingdom. But maybe you can still feel resentful about circumstances forcing the task on you.