67 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Didn't read the whole thread. Am I correct to assume there's a few people in here who should be playing PnP RPGs instead of complaining about the very obvious limitations of a computer program?

[Moorkh]

I would have gone with just *one* alternative choice in that scene, any, really. Instead, it's completely non-interactive. Before that, you are given plenty in most cases. I resent the lack of consequence here.

But I guess you're right and I'll need to fall back on my imagination instead - reminds me of playing Rogue

[SeanMurphy2]

I think the opposite happens in the Human Noble Origin. You can continually refuse to be a Grey Warden and Duncan is forced to conscript you.



On another forum, someone was complaining that the option to refuse to be a Grey Warden in that scene was meaningless. And should not have been included. So I think it is hard to write those scenes where something has to happen for the sake of the story..

[KDAME1984]

I think people are getting a bit out of hand with this: "they didn't have MY personal expression of anger/frustration/rage factored in..."



Let me say something that feels logical: there are infinite choices to be made regarding dialogue. The developers cannot add them all...there would be hundreds of choices to be made. Such as: killing Duncan for killing Jory at the moment...saving Jory...killing Duncan later...not becoming a Grey Warden (which gets rid of the whole premise of the game)...etcetera. The way I played the Origin stories...it felt a lot like the PC had no choice in the matter (for example, would you rather have taken your chances at your parents' castle or in the service of the Grey Wardens? I'd rather take the opportunity for power and the ability to either seek revenge if I was that type of character...or survive simply to go about pilfering the lands of Ferelden after the Battle of Ostagar.



Point being: get creative with what's given to you! Make a story out of it! Your evil character may have reasons for participating in the Joining even if the dialouge doesn't reference it. Your gameplay can reflect those reasons.

[Moorkh]

gah!



Nobody (well, not I... ) wants a million choices at once. I just want one meaningful choice in that scene.



There is an obvious disparity in standards here: up ot this point, you have gotten (rightly!) used to be given a choice in how your character acts. Then, in the most dramatic scene, nothing. That's poor design and nothing else.



Designers in RPGs traditionally control the actions of the NPCs. They don't act out what the player character does. Certainly not in an RPG that lets you generate and develop your character. It's not done, and for good reason. Not in BG, not in NWN, not in IWD, not in FO, and hardly at all in any others I recall (Yes Origin did it some in the Ultimas, but then, you were the Avatar...).



It seems clear what is taken away- Tell me, what does this design decision add to the game that couldn't be achieved without?

[minamber]

It's true that Bioware could have given us some more fitting dialogue choices for that particular scene. It was also rather jarring to have Duncan, who up to that point had been nice, understanding and open-minded, just kill Jowy without even trying to talk to him.

I guess the devs just didn't want to give you dialogue choices that could end in a game-over, since lots of people seem to dislike that.



Anyway, the whole Ostagar part of the game wasn't all that good imho, just like most game prologues. You get a lot more choices afterwards, and the roleplaying options are fairly interesting and realistic.

[BringwinD]

I pretty much remember the Joining as something all grey wardens go through as the sacrifice that is asked of you will be now. Sacrifice meaning, capable of dying to kill the archdemon. Jory refused to drink it, even if Duncan had to talk to him, and Jory survived the Joining, without someone talking to him, will he be able to strike the final blow at the archdemon knowing that it will kill him? Duncan recognizes this, so it is pointless to mediate with Jory, anyone without the resolve now should and must be killed as a deserter.



Your PC obviously understands this, unfortunately the person playing the PC does not.



There isn't a need for a dialogue choice at that point, the PC knows NOT drinking it results in instagib, while drinking it is the only chance to live. Therefore you drink it. No questions asked.

[Sarakinoi]

minamber wrote...

It was also rather jarring to have Duncan, who up to that point had been nice, understanding and open-minded, just kill Jowy without even trying to talk to him.

Yes that bothered me too, a lot.

But later on my second play, thinking more about it, I just came to the conclusion that I did not know Duncan as well as I thought I did. I am reading the second novel right now, and it also points to the same thing.

Also what happens in the joining ritual was a big warden secret, and I think they won't allow someone to leave with that knowledge without being a warden :

[*]Knowing that wardens drink demon blood would create a lot of hostility to them
[*]Similarities of the ritual with blood magic is problematic also
[*]It would significantly complicate their already difficult recruiting process if people would fear dying in such a way

It makes perfect sens when you think of it. The only problem is that this point could have been explained or handled in a clearer way, so it does not seem like Duncan was being bruttish and savage by murdering a good man and a skilled warrior for simply not joining the order.

Modifié par Sarakinoi, 21 novembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Driveninhifi]

Moorkh wrote...

gah!

Nobody (well, not I... ) wants a million choices at once. I just want one meaningful choice in that scene.

There is an obvious disparity in standards here: up ot this point, you have gotten (rightly!) used to be given a choice in how your character acts. Then, in the most dramatic scene, nothing. That's poor design and nothing else.

Designers in RPGs traditionally control the actions of the NPCs. They don't act out what the player character does. Certainly not in an RPG that lets you generate and develop your character. It's not done, and for good reason. Not in BG, not in NWN, not in IWD, not in FO, and hardly at all in any others I recall (Yes Origin did it some in the Ultimas, but then, you were the Avatar...).

It seems clear what is taken away- Tell me, what does this design decision add to the game that couldn't be achieved without?

I do agree with you. The player's destiny should not be taken out of their hands - the whole point of this style of game is that the player IS the main character. When you are playing, your character is the world's most powerful and influential person. Though as I said before, if you think this part is bad with that, wait until you get until the ending.

[menasure]

well i only call my character a grey warden whenever it suits me to make an impression ... I could not care less about that part myself though, i might even wipe them out if the game allowed me to do that (doubt it) because being a grey warden only promotes you to some sort of universal errant boy-universal soldier who does all or most of the work while others have the real power in game while they do nothing or just mess everything up

[GoldenusG]

I'd have liked the option to refuse to drink - and then be killed, sure its game over, but at least I stuck to my principles.



Likewise, I wanted the opportunity to desert once I hit Lothering. Have a Game Over with 'And the blight spread till it consumed all the lands' type ending.

[TomBrokaw]

This is stupid.



I'm a limp wristed, liberal pacifist who doesn't believe in violence under any circumstances. Where are the role playing options for someone like me? So much of this game forces me to kill stuff.



Answer: go buy a Wii and play something rated for five year olds.

[frokenscheim]

I would've liked to have plucked Andraste's Ashes from the altar and sold them piecemeal in the streets of Denerim; alas in a game like this, while there is choice, it operates within the confines of the narrative. And anyone who's had even a taste of the marketing knows going in that the one thing you can't do is NOT be a Grey Warden. However you can downplay that aspect of yourself, and in the end perhaps even betray them.

[Setz69]

Moorkh wrote...

I guess I wasn't clear enough. As Mad Method and others stated, I don't mind being required to become a Grey Warden in the end (while it is not part of the set up, it is a useful plot device). There will be situations where others restrict your options in this and any other games, that is clear.

However, my problem is that the game doesn't allow me to stay "in character", a character it has encouraged me to develop this far. Now she just stands there, passively, emotionally detached for the whole scene and then at most gets to politely ask if that was necessary, no matter if this fits to her character or not.

For the most part, I have to agree that your character could atleast be given a

"By the maker, what have you done?!"

"Coward deserved it"

"Haha look at all the blood"

Choices of response, where duncan would go on to explain he said there was no backing out and that the joining is needed.

My character is a rogue, surviving with her skill at words and deception, wary of the established order of things. Up to that point, my character was offered choices that more or less let her act in that manner. At the ritual, there weren't any. No arguing, no resistance, simply accepting thinly-veiled murder and sacrificing her life like a lamb to the slaughter for a cause that she didn't believe in. The game doesn't even really make a case for the necessity of the ritual to this point - there is nothing to suggest the bad guys couldn't be defeated without the taint.
I would've gladly accepted death as the consequence of a dialogue choice. However, I don't think Duncan went through all that effort to just kill of all of his recruits - he apparently very much needs replacents to refill the ranks of the Wardens...

As you'll find out when you play, the wardens are ALL about self sacrifice. And the fact that Duncan most likely saved your ass from death/prison, your life is his, whether you believe in his cause or not. Thats the choice you made at the beginning of your origin campaign when you go with him. And death as a dialogue choice would have been boring. Who would pick to die right there? Duncan WOULD kill all his recruits. He puts duty above personal feelings. The joining must be kept a secret.

I really hope this is just one clumsy oversight and not the rule for the rest of the game. Someone noted I wouldn't like the ending. I certainly don't want to play a self-rightoeus ass. So again I ask: will I have a chance to stab Duncan and his ilk in their collective backs later on, shoving my disgust in their faces?

No, there aren't any spots I noticed that pigeon hole you into being one way or another. But your choices will have consequence. Infact i believe there is even dialogue for someone not wanting to be a grey warden after the battle at ostager. And about killing Duncan and his ilk, well you'll be chewing on those words soon enough

P.S.: Thank you for the "stupid" on that third reply. I had heard this game was for a mature audience. Another misconception?

Sadly this is the degrating state of the internet.

Modifié par Setz69, 21 novembre 2009 - 10:23 .

[Moorkh]

Hmmm... I did continue playing after all. And Duncan got what he desrved, altough for all the wrong reasons.

Now I hope I can get Alistair killed, join Loghain's side and get a chance to spit on Duncan's grave, too. I might just consider myself reconciled

[RazorrX]

I so wanted an "Oh Sod It!" Moment like in City Elf origin with the guards.



Jory draws blade and backs up.



Duncan advances with cup drawing dagger.



"Oh Sod it!" Throw dagger into Jory's neck killing him.



"Give me the damned cup, I have things to do."

[Ammadessi]

The Joining scene sets the tone of the game very well, in my opinion.



There are no easy choices, no black and white lines of morality that you must adhere to. Everyone is out for their own survival and their decisions reflect that.



As others have pointed out, without Grey Wardens the world ends. Duncan did not relish killing Jory, but if he had spread the word about what the Joining entailed, people would mistrust the Wardens even more and make their fight to end the blight even harder. The templars might even put them into prison because the joining ritual seems suspiciously close to blood magic, which is punishable by death, you know.



Is the life of one man worth letting the world end?

[Kinaori]

It's not about whether it's necessary to the plot to have the PC become a Grey Warden, that's obvious. It's whether or not the Joining and any murders (yes, murders) of people who refuse are believably justified. The PC should indeed have the option to be incredulous and angry. To suggest that OP should just suck it up because it's a plot point is totally artificial and defeats the spirit of the entire rest of the game, where your reactions and the things you say matter. The PC is *supposed* to have opinions and a viewpoint.



Also (and correct me if I'm wrong on this) initially the Joining is described as necessary so that you can sense the Darkspawn. Honestly it doesn't sound like enough of a good reason for the deaths. You find out later the most important reason, and that would've made my PC go, "Let's get on with it then." But I guess that had to be withheld until the end for dramatic purposes. Tough to peel the onion on this one.



But I think too, much of the point of this whole exercise was to drill into us early that there are no stock "good guys" and "bad guys" in this game quite. It's all shades of gray.