108 réponses à ce sujet

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

charmingcharlie wrote...

Shinian2 wrote...

I'm not sure if everyone got what I was talking about in my OP. There was a recent article where some reviewer had tried ME3, maybe at E3?

The only version that has been shown to the press is the Xbox 360 version (it was the Xbox 360 version at E3).  I believe Bioware has said nothing or shown anything of the PC version other than commenting on what the PC requirements might be.

Hmm, maybe I read it wrong then.. Oh well. If I come across the article again I'll post it

[charmingcharlie]

Captain Crash wrote...
Hold on a moment, its still not stopping people who did have a good experience asking for the option is it.

As I have said they have an option it is called the console version.  If they prefer the joypad control scheme then it makes sense for them to use a gaming system that supports that control scheme natively does it not ?  I have had a good experience with the mouse and keyboard should I be spamming console developers boards to try and get them to put mouse and keyboard controls into their console titles ?  Perhaps I should demand Bioware puts mouse and keyboard controls into the console version eh ?  

[Shepard the Leper]

Let's seperate fact and fiction first. Keyboard & Mouse are vastly superior to controllers. This is not an opinion, but a simple fact. Controllers are designed to allow people to sit or lie down on their couch and play games (not possible with K&M); comfort is more important than precision and speed here.
I don't think there are many PC gamers who care about controllers at all. They do care about their favorite games. There is way to much focus on consoles as it is, most devs use hopelessly obsolete hardware (a 5 year old high-end pc eats consoles for breakfast); poor graphics; crappy ported controls and so on. According to the ME2 gameplay designer:

Christina Norman wrote...

Balancing for pc vs console is incredibly difficult, we do our best (enemies are tougher on pc than on xbox) but pc will always offer more precise controls, and better sequencing of attacks.

IMHO there are two options. If you want to play with a controller do it, you already can and all you need to do is change the controls yourself like most PC gamers already do with their K&M setup anyway. Or buy a console which are in the same price range as a low-mid range GPU. Asking the devs to invest time and effort in a feature only a very small minority will use is a waste of time and concession have to be made resulting in a poorer gaming  performance for most PC gamers - no thanks.

[Daiyus]

charmingcharlie wrote...

Daiyus wrote... Seriously, there's no losers in this if both are included. Everyone plays how they want. I hate using the term, but some attitudes towards anything console related around here seem to border on PC Elitism sometimes.

Yes there are losers and it is usually the keyboard and mouse users that lose out just so they can put in joypad control.  As I have said before it is a hell of a lot easier to use a mouse and keyboard in a joypad interface than it is to use a joypad in a mouse and keyboard interface.  So usually devs just cater for the joypad user and let mouse and keyboard users slum it.

I notice you roll out the old "PC Elitism" crap, if it is elitist to want developers to cater for only the native control scheme of the PC platform (just like they do for the consoles) then fine I am a damn PC Elitist and proud of it. It seems some on here just want to play the console version of ME 3 on the PC.  I don't if I want to play the console version with joypad support then shock, horror I will buy a console and play that version.

Captain Crash wrote...
It seems perfectly feasible as an option and some people are putting up very strong barriers, mostly illogically I think.  Just because you prefer a controller doesnt mean anything and saying things like "ditch your £800 gaming PC and buy a console instead" is just damn right silly.

Not as silly as gaming on a platform that doesn't natively support your preferred control system.  The control system is integral to the game and enjoyment of that game.  If you do not like the mouse and keyboard control scheme then what the hell are you doing playing games on a PC ?

Captain Crash wrote... No one wants to take away from the mose/keyboard experience.  Thats obviously top priority as I said.  But having an option to use a different interface would be great!

It doesn't matter if you don't want it to "take away from the mouse and keyboard experience" it WILL because that is the only economic way to include both joypad and mouse/keyboard control.  It isn't just a case of turning on joypad support the whole game has to be designed and balanced to support the joypad.  Now no company is going to do that for both joypads and mouse/keyboard so inevitably the mouse and keyboard users lose out.

I think the main point you're missing is that people don't pick platform exclusively for interface preference. There's so many variables from simple things like mods, to lifestyle (what if you travel alot, so have a laptop for gaming? How about you're a student so you need a computer anyway, so a gaming PC is cheaper than buying a TV and a console, alongside a PC?). PC's have always been the more malleable platform, and it's a huge part of why people choose them (myself included to an extent, I'm slowly converting). It's the options people like, and all some people are asking for is another option.

Now, you've seen that almost everyone in this thread has agreed that controller support should only be implemented once the PC designated interface is as good as it can be. You seem to be adamant that any level of controller support will wreck your PC interface, which isn't true. It all depends on how BioWare treats it. You must remember that a console controller layout is being developed anyway (as you keep pointing out) so all the work to optimise that side of things is already being done. All it takes is a couple of guys to tack it onto the PC version once everything else is done, even if it's a post-release patch (in fact that would be the best way to go about it to keep everyone happy, no real dev time lost).

As for PC Elitism, that wasn't directed at you (although you've taken that very personally). You are at least writing clearly thought out arguments, and I can see the logic behind them (even if I don't agree). PC Elitists just write any kind of console related feature off becuase it's a console feature (which has been prevalent in this thread). Trust me, if there was a call to get M+K support for the console versions, I'd be supporting that too. I know Unreal Tournament 3 did it on PS3, so it could be done. I'm for options so people can play how they like, whatever direction that takes. The truth is there's a call for Joypad support for PC, and I personally think BioWare should answer it (just like Bethesda do).

[vimpel_zocom]

dont need

[Shepard the Leper]

Daiyus wrote...

Now, you've seen that almost everyone in this thread has agreed that controller support should only be implemented once the PC designated interface is as good as it can be. You seem to be adamant that any level of controller support will wreck your PC interface, which isn't true. It all depends on how BioWare treats it. You must remember that a console controller layout is being developed anyway (as you keep pointing out) so all the work to optimise that side of things is already being done. All it takes is a couple of guys to tack it onto the PC version once everything else is done, even if it's a post-release patch (in fact that would be the best way to go about it to keep everyone happy, no real dev time lost).

It's not that easy. If it were, no one would complain. Point is, adding controller support to the PC version will require a lot of work (at least that's what the devs have said in the past). I don't think it's justifiable to aks precious development time being 'wasted' on something which is already available (on consoles and/or by remapping controls using the software that comes with a PC controller). It's simply a matter of priorities. Creating a game with a superb K&M interface is what matters most; adding multiple gameplay, AI, controls, speed, aim-assist etc just to please a couple guys who like controllers is not important. If it can be done with minimal resources, sure why not, but for me there are far more important things the devs should be looking at. Small things (which are a lot easier to fix) like having more than 50 saves per character, the option to use the scroll-wheel in menus, using TAB and ENTER in the menu etc etc are much higher on my wishlist than controller support.

[Daiyus]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

It's not that easy. If it were, no one would complain. Point is, adding controller support to the PC version will require a lot of work (at least that's what the devs have said in the past). I don't think it's justifiable to aks precious development time being 'wasted' on something which is already available (on consoles and/or by remapping controls using the software that comes with a PC controller). It's simply a matter of priorities. Creating a game with a superb K&M interface is what matters most; adding multiple gameplay, AI, controls, speed, aim-assist etc just to please a couple guys who like controllers is not important. If it can be done with minimal resources, sure why not, but for me there are far more important things the devs should be looking at. Small things (which are a lot easier to fix) like having more than 50 saves per character, the option to use the scroll-wheel in menus, using TAB and ENTER in the menu etc etc are much higher on my wishlist than controller support.

And I agree. Make the PC version perfect, then patch controller support in later. It's not just a few people. Most people I know would like the option, and I'm the only one who posts here. I'll concede I don't know anything about programming. However, I'm sure BioWare/EA can put a small team on a little project to add with neglegable hit to profit making/production.

[Fredvdp]

charmingcharlie wrote...

Captain Crash wrote...
Hold on a moment, its still not stopping people who did have a good experience asking for the option is it.

As I have said they have an option it is called the console version.

A €60 option is not really an option to me and especially not to those who don't own the 360 or PS3. It would be more convenient to have the maximum amount of control schemes in every version of the game. If you don't want to use a controller in the PC version, that's fine. No worries for you. But since ME2 on PC almost had controller support (everything was ported except the wheel menus), it wouldn't be too much to ask. I'm not gonna cry if they don't include it, though. I have played both ME games with a keyboard as it is my preferred playstyle, but I want to try the controller anyway just to check if I can buy TPS games for consoles in the future. I'm not spending €60 just to find out I suck at them.

[Anakronist]

I don't get why they should waste the time to make this game playable with a controller on the pc, when it works perfectly fine ON A CONSOLE. If you are too poor to have both a console and a pc that can play the game, then thats too bad, find a job/better paying job.

[elitecom]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
It's not that easy. If it were, no one would complain. Point is, adding controller support to the PC version will require a lot of work (at least that's what the devs have said in the past). I don't think it's justifiable to aks precious development time being 'wasted' on something which is already available (on consoles and/or by remapping controls using the software that comes with a PC controller). It's simply a matter of priorities. Creating a game with a superb K&M interface is what matters most; adding multiple gameplay, AI, controls, speed, aim-assist etc just to please a couple guys who like controllers is not important. If it can be done with minimal resources, sure why not, but for me there are far more important things the devs should be looking at. Small things (which are a lot easier to fix) like having more than 50 saves per character, the option to use the scroll-wheel in menus, using TAB and ENTER in the menu etc etc are much higher on my wishlist than controller support.

I agree, the implementation of controller support should in no way compromise the design for the Keyboard and Mouse or the PC version in general. Something which it probably will do if it was to be implemented. If there are enough that want it, it can be patched in later after the game is finished. Right now making sure that the PC version will be as great as possible has greater priority than fixing support for gamepads.

[charmingcharlie]

Daiyus wrote...  I think the main point you're missing is that people don't pick platform exclusively for interface preference. There's so many variables from simple things like mods, to lifestyle (what if  you travel alot, so have a laptop for gaming? How about you're a student so you need a computer anyway, so a gaming PC is cheaper than buying a TV and a console, alongside a PC?). PC's have always been the more malleable platform, and it's a huge part of why people choose them (myself included to an extent, I'm slowly converting). It's the options people like, and all some people are asking for is another option.

I don't miss the point at all, no system is a perfect match for people.  So you have to decide what is important to you.  If you prefer joypad controls then there is an option open to you in the form of the consoles.  I hardly think you can use "cost" as a barrier these days when an Xbox can be purchased for around £100 (and can be used with a computer monitor or any bog standard TV).  If on the other hand you want all the things that come with PC gaming then you have to decide whether you can adapt to mouse and keyboard.

I am not immune to this, like I said I would like to play some of the console exclusive games but the control  interface is important to me and I would never get used to the joypad.  So I make a choice and do not buy a console, I don't go around expecting devs to support mouse and keyboard game play on the consoles just because I prefer it.

Daiyus wrote... Now, you've seen that almost everyone in this thread has agreed that controller support should only be implemented once the PC designated interface is as good as it can be. You seem to be adamant that any level of controller support will wreck your PC interface, which isn't true.

I have already covered this several times already.  Look just turning joypad support on is NOT an option, Bioware will not do that because it "falls below their quality standards".  Which leaves two options open to them, they could include   both the joypad interface and balance the game for joypad users and include the mouse/keyboard interface and balance the game for mouse/keyboard users.  I wouldn't have a problem with that but they won't do it because it would not be cost effective.

The only economical way to do it is to do joypad support in the PC version is to give it full joypad support and let mouse and keyboard users slum it yet again.  That is what happens in nearly every game these days and as a mouse and keyboard user I am not happy about it just because a small minority want to use a joypad.

Daiyus wrote... Trust me, if there was a call to get M+K  support for the console versions, I'd be supporting that too.

I wouldn't support it both the PC and the Console offer different gaming experiences, the control method is part of that.  I really do not understand why people insist on turning the PC into a console like experience.  I don't want that I want the PC experience.

Modifié par charmingcharlie, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[Daiyus]

charmingcharlie wrote...

I wouldn't support it both the PC and the Console offer different gaming experiences, the control method is part of that.  I really do not understand why people insist on turning the PC into a console like experience.  I don't want that I want the PC experience.

I don't think that holds true anymore. The borders between the two are falling fast. Some devs are even considering releasing mod support for console titles. More and more people are slipping between the two. Games are mostly cross-platform now, it's only the platform exclusive games that really push what the platform can do. In that sense I wouldn't ask a PC exclusive title to add controller support, as it would take complete advantage over the M+K setup. From my experience multi-platform games are near identical despite UI in terms of gameplay. For a multi-platform game I see no reason not to add controllers for PC use.

You say that PC gamers will "slum it" if controller support is added. It's like the potential to have great PC UI alongside a controller UI is impossible. It really isn't. Imagine the game released to you as you want, with an amazing PC UI that utilises those extra keys, etc. Now imagine that exact same game except in the options screen you can select "Controller" and now it plays like the console version (in terms of UI). You get your game, I get mine, and nobody loses. It's not impossible.

As for money, don't even get me started. You seem to think money is freely available. TV's aren't cheap, and £100 for a console isn't a small sum of money (in my current job with all my outgoings that would take me a few months to save).

I still cannot see the logic to deny options just because some people wouldn't use it. It's like saying don't reprogam the AI  and levels for different difficulties because everyone will be happy with "Normal". It's just not true. Now I get that most PC users won't use said option, and that's a preference thing, and that's cool. But games really don't play that differently from K+M to controller. Gaming is gaming, no matter where you do it. I refuse to be so negative in my outlook that the potential for both inputs to be available, at peak performance, is an unachievable goal. I'm sorry, I just don't see it as impossible, and I don't one suffering or the other as inevitable.

[Fredvdp]

Nyoka wrote...

Nah, ME3 PC version will be better if they include double clicking and wheel mouse scrolling.

That is correct. Before considering including controller support they should make sure the mouse and keyboard controls work as they should, because they didn't in ME2. Demiurge did it right with ME1. Also, don't forget menu shortcuts and weapon hotkeys.

[Siven80]

Fredvdp wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Nah, ME3 PC version will be better if they include double clicking and wheel mouse scrolling.

That is correct. Before considering including controller support they should make sure the mouse and keyboard controls work as they should, because they didn't in ME2. Demiurge did it right with ME1. Also, don't forget menu shortcuts and weapon hotkeys.

Agreed, ME2 PC support was bad, in fact theres a nice thread about PC specific features we'd like in the game going atm.

Adding proper PC support should come before optional controller support for any PC game, but the option to play with a controller is always welcomed by me as the PC is about options and the majority of modern games do support gamepads, so anyone saying gamepads are for consoles only need to get with the times.

In fact the PC version of Batman:Arkham Asylum was far better using a gamepad than the M+K I and many others found.

Modifié par Siven80, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[charmingcharlie]

Daiyus wrote...
I don't think that holds true anymore. The borders between the two are falling fast. Some devs are even considering releasing mod support for console titles. More and more people are slipping between the two. Games are mostly cross-platform now, it's only the platform exclusive games that really push what the platform can do. In that sense I wouldn't ask a PC exclusive title to add controller support, as it would take complete advantage over the M+K setup. From my experience multi-platform games are near identical despite UI in terms of gameplay. For a multi-platform game I see no reason not to add controllers for PC use.

So basically you want the console experience on the PC, I don't.  Just because a game is multiplatform does not mean every platform must have the same experience.  I believe Bioware understands this, they go out of their way to make their games "different" to cater for the mouse and keyboard because the majority of PC gamers WANT a different experience to the console experience.  You obviously don't you want the console experience on the PC.

Daiyus wrote... You say that PC gamers will "slum it" if controller support is added. It's like the potential to have great PC UI alongside a controller UI is impossible. It really isn't. Imagine the game released to you as you want, with an amazing PC UI that utilises those extra keys, etc. Now imagine that exact same game except in the options screen you can select "Controller" and now it plays like the console version (in terms of UI). You get your game, I get mine, and nobody loses. It's not impossible.

I never said it was "impossible" I have clearly stated it is not impossible but it is UNFEASIBLE economically to do it.  You are basically asking Bioware to do two versions of the game for the PC one balanced for joypad use and balanced for the mouse and keyboard.  That takes time, money and resources to do and it is not feasible.  The only way they can FEASIBLE include joypad control economically is to balance the game for joypad control and let mouse and keyboard users "make do".

Daiyus wrote... As for money, don't even get me started. You seem to think money is freely available. TV's aren't cheap, and £100 for a console isn't a small sum of money (in my current job with all my outgoings that would take me a few months to save).

No I don't think money is "freely available" I am not some rich kid here.  However if joypad control is important to you then you will want to game on the platform that natively supports that would you not ?  Oh and please stop with the "TV's aren't cheap" rubbish, you are using a monitor with your PC are you not ?  Well guess what you can use an Xbox with that monitor so there you go you don't even need to buy a TV you can use the Xbox on your monitor.

There is still plenty of time for you to save up for an Xbox, there is at least 8 months till Mass Effect 3 hits the stores.  It is entirely feasible that by the time ME 3 actually hits the shelves the Xbox 360 will be UNDER £100.  It just depends on how much you value your gaming experience.  If joypad control is important to you then you should be gaming on a platform that natively supports that control scheme.

Daiyus wrote... . But games really don't play that differently from K+M to controller. Gaming is gaming, no matter where you do it.

That is why you don't get it, the PC version is balanced for mouse and keyboard gameplay the enemies are harder the control interface is designed specifically for the mouse and keyboard and I believe the minigames are even faster on the PC to accomodate the increased speed and accuracy of the mouse and keyboard.

You talk about "money not growing on trees" yet you are asking Bioware to throw a fair chunk of resources at bringing a feature that only a small minority will use just because you want it.  I am not being the unreasonable one here, you are.

[Shepard the Leper]

For me personally, customization is one of the reasons I prefer playing on a PC. I think there are few PC gamers who are against adding controller support an sich. That's not the issue and as has been said, you already can play ME2 on PC using a controller (simply by remapping the keys). The problem for Bioware and other gaming companies is not the addition of different control options, it's about consistency.

K&M offer far better controls in terms of speed and accuracy; it's why K&M are not supported on consoles. If they did, those using K&M would have a major (game-breaking) advantage over the controller-crowd. First and foremost in multiplayer, but it also affects single player games because everything has to be redesigned / balanced to allow those using a controller to do roughly the same stuff those using a K&M can do.

It's important to provide everyone with an equally good (or bad) experience and not favoring one or the other. The reason why Bioware did not add controller support in ME2 is only because those using a controller would be severely gimped compared to the K&M crowd. If the devs have some time left to publish a patch/DLC that changes the game completely to allow console-like controller support, that's great. I won't use it, but their are no compromises to the game I like to play. If the devs can't or don't want to do this, that's fine with my too - though those favoring controllers would be dissapointed.

Somewhere they have to draw the line; what's next, Wii-mote support ;-)

[Daiyus]

charmingcharlie. I think it's quite clear that we're aren't going to agree. Just to let you know, I do in fact own a 360, PS3, and a laptop, all of which I use for games (and it's taken me years to accumalate my current tech setup). I do play on the PC using a third party program called Xpadder, allowing me use of a joypad. Every game I've ever played using that method has handled pretty well, and as a solution, it's not bad. I don't find myself at a disadvantage against enemies "tailored for M+K". The main issue is menu's and movement. Menu's are a little cumbersome, but can be worked around. Movement on the other hand is strange without analogue support. Believe it or not I think most people would be happy playing the game "set up for M+K users" with all the extra challenge that entails if BioWare just allowed analogue use of sticks (primarily movement), and had another set of menus for the controller use. No need to rebalance the game, no need to add auto-aim (a feature I turn off whenever possible anyway), etc.

However, I am aware of economical limits. In my opinion adding that low level of support would help boost sales. It wouldn't be as expensive as you suggest because the process wouldn't be as in depth as you would consider needed. I'm not asking for a console game, I'm asking for a PC game with console menu's, with analogue movement and a few basics like weapon/power wheels. That's why I don't consider it unfeasable in the same sense you do.

[Daiyus]

Nyoka wrote...

Daiyus wrote...
I'm not asking for a console game, I'm asking for a PC game with console menu's

I'd rather have PC menus in my PC games, thanks. It's bad enough we get low res textures because of consoles, and now this...?

I think you missed the fact we're talking options here. I'm saying console menu's when using a joypad, PC menu's when using K+M. Can't believe I have to spell that out at this point of the debate.

[Jamie_3213]

I played Crysis 2 and Skyrim with a keyboard and mouse to begin with and switched to a gamepad, both definitely played better with the gamepad and - unfortunately - I think it's a trend with most PC games these days. They're not designed for a PC so - for the most part - they will generally work and play better with a gamepad. I played Dragon Age II on both Xbox 360 and PC and the keyboard and mouse combination felt infinitely better but ME3 looks to be more "consolised" than any of the previous games so I have a feeling it will play better with a gamepad.

Modifié par Jamie_3213, 29 décembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[brainless78]

Jamie_3213 wrote...

I played Crysis 2 and Skyrim with a keyboard and mouse to begin with and switched to a gamepad, both definitely played better with the gamepad and - unfortunately - I think it's a trend with most PC games these days. They're not designed for a PC so - for the most part - they will generally work and play better with a gamepad. I played Dragon Age II on both Xbox 360 and PC and the keyboard and mouse combination felt infinitely better but ME3 looks to be more "consolised" than any of the previous games so I have a feeling it will play better with a gamepad.

Nice necro.

Oh, and for Crysis 2, you have to manually switch off the mouse smoothing thingy that f*cks up your aim, and then here you go: mouse>all.

[Bleachrude]

I'm actually fine with most of the attention being paid to the console...It would be hypocritical of me to berate Bioware for focusing on the console crowd for DA2 (when DA was designed initially only for the PC) and then turn around and do the same with ME (ME1 was originally an X360 exclusive)

[Thompson family]

I've only read the OP, but must say the whole idea of a controller being better than a mouse and keyboard is patently absurd.