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[Morroian]

Ryzaki wrote...

Morroian wrote...
It wouldn't occur to me that she might be a target, especially 3 years later. 

Except of course you hear about the white lillies in Act 2 (where it's not 3 years later) by listening to DuPuis as well and if Hawke had a smidge of sense would've started putting the fact that the flowers were sent to OLDER wealthy women together and thought "hey...maybe just maybe I should warn my mom and have some extra patrols around the house. Just in case." :innocent: Especially after Emeric's "What if one of the victims was someone you loved?" remark. 

OK but I still think its one of those things you think about in hindsight but not necessarily before the fact, Kirkwall is meant to be a big city even if the game doesn't portray that very well..

Also this is one of those instances where I get bemused about people blaming Hawke personally rather than the writing for not giving them the option. 

Modifié par Morroian, 04 août 2011 - 05:00 .

[erynnar]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I could have seen the option you talk about. But Eleanor was a battle maid, she would not have let you do it. I know I wouldn't have. My child would have my arrows to defend them until my death. Because that is what a mom doees. You don't frak with my kid. And that includes telling my kid to beat it. It's lovely that you would feel that way Jack, but if you were my son, I would make you go with Duncan and leave me behind.

You've clearly never witnessed a battle of stubborness between myself and my mother.

Lets just say if she wanted me to go with Duncan she'd have to drag me out personally. That would be the only way she could make me do it.

You sexy stubborn thing you! Yeah I can be stubborn, very. Um, yeah, you, me...we'd have...um fun banging heads together.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Morroian wrote...
It wouldn't occur to me that she might be a target, especially 3 years later. 

Except of course you hear about the white lillies in Act 2 (where it's not 3 years later) by listening to DuPuis as well and if Hawke had a smidge of sense would've started putting the fact that the flowers were sent to OLDER wealthy women together and thought "hey...maybe just maybe I should warn my mom and have some extra patrols around the house. Just in case." :innocent: Especially after Emeric's "What if one of the victims was someone you loved?" remark. 

OK but I still think its one of those things you think about in hindsight but not necessarily before the fact.

Also this is one of those instances where I get bemused about people blaming Hawke personally rather than the writing for not giving them the option. 

I thought the writing not giving the option was understood. Because people who are bringing up thing in DAO, it would be the same thing. Jack wanted an option to save Eleanor, but he didn't get it, etc. Kind of like not having to say imho after everything.

[Ryzaki]

Morroian wrote...
OK but I still think its one of those things you think about in hindsight but not necessarily before the fact.

Also this is one of those instances where I get bemused about people blaming Hawke personally rather than the writing for not giving them the option. 

It's probably because so many people died in my family when it comes to things like that I'd be paranoid. (I'd think a Hawke ESPECIALLY a Hawke who had everyone else *but* his mother died) would be paranoid about such things as well. 

Though yeah the writing wasn't exactly great in this case either. 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

To add on my tl;dr "c&c doesn't need to be all narrative, meaningful choices =/= save the world tangent", even something like character attack noises, and adjustments in the tactics bar count.

Show good leadership and decision making in an important quest? Get an extra tactics bar. Cutscenes have Hawke being depicted as angry? Adjust the attack noises to be more aggressive.

[Aeowyn]

Ryzaki wrote...

Morroian wrote...
It wouldn't occur to me that she might be a target, especially 3 years later. 

Except of course you hear about the white lillies in Act 2 (where it's not 3 years later) by listening to DuPuis as well and if Hawke had a smidge of sense would've started putting the fact that the flowers were sent to OLDER wealthy women together and thought "hey...maybe just maybe I should warn my mom and have some extra patrols around the house. Just in case." :innocent: Especially after Emeric's "What if one of the victims was someone you loved?" remark. 

Honestly, if she was dating the guy and he sent her lillies I sincerely doubt she would suspect him of being the killer still. White lillies is not some rarity, and despite Hawke's warning, I doubt Leandra would actually suspect the man she is dating to be a killer.
And since Leandra says that she's not ready to introduce him yet, I'm sure as hell am not going to force my Mum to get her new bloke to meet her kid.

[Zjarcal]

jlb524 wrote...

Wait, Hawke is a coward cuz s/he leaves the Blight? Wut?

I think Hawke was a bit outnumbered, plus s/he had a family to watch out for. Plus, s/he lacks the 'cool Warden powahs' that the Warden had. The Warden didn't even face the full force of the Darkspawn army until s/he had a big ass army...until then, the Warden avoided the main Darkspawn forces. If Hawke stayed in Lothering any longer, s/he would have faced the the strongest part of the horde.

You'd think this would be obvious to people.

[Ryzaki]

Aeowyn wrote...
Honestly, if she was dating the guy and he sent her lillies I sincerely doubt she would suspect him of being the killer still. White lillies is not some rarity, and despite Hawke's warning, I doubt Leandra would actually suspect the man she is dating to be a killer. 
And since Leandra says that she's not ready to introduce him yet, I'm sure as hell am not going to force my Mum to get her new bloke to meet her kid.

Oh she doesn't have to. All Hawke has to do is suspect him. All it takes is her hesitating before going "oh please X isn't the killer!" before Hawke starts stalking X. 

I would. Rather have my mom mad at me for sticking my nose into her business then dead. 

[Realmzmaster]

Addai67 wrote...

Frusciante31 wrote...

1.  Hawke is trying to protect his mother and siblings by getting them to Kirkwall where they are safe from the Blight.

So she gets them to Gwaren, puts them on a ship and waves goodbye.  Did you see those schmucks in Redcliffe leaving their families behind to go fight?  Why couldn't we have played one of them?

2.  Did you see Anders' doing *SPOILER* ?  If not, you can hardly blame Hawke...

I don't know what you're talking about.  I saw plenty in Anders' act 1 quest that could justify cleanup.  Hawke took out other rogue mages for less reason.

3.  And relative to Hawke's mother, he did everything he could, it just wasn't enough...that is what makes Hawke intriguing to me:  as powerful as a fighter as he is, the tragedy of his story is that (up to this point...) that isn't all that beneficial to him as there were still circumstances wildly beyond his control that he was forced to deal withl. 
I think that makes him much more of a powerful character than a typical main character who is shielded by plot armor.

Tragedy is if you try and fail.  Hawke is not tragic, as we're pointing out.  She's maybe careless and inept, if not totally irresponsible.

Putting your family on a ship does not ensure they get there safely. No good son/daughter is going to leave his mother and other family members without  getting them safely to their destination and inside the city. The son/daughter would then ensure that their family members are able to survive in the new environment.

Hawke is neither careless nor inept IMHO. Hawke tries and fails, and  at times succeeds only to have it slip away.  A lot like real life, maybe that is what scares people.

[Aeowyn]

Zjarcal wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Wait, Hawke is a coward cuz s/he leaves the Blight? Wut?

I think Hawke was a bit outnumbered, plus s/he had a family to watch out for. Plus, s/he lacks the 'cool Warden powahs' that the Warden had. The Warden didn't even face the full force of the Darkspawn army until s/he had a big ass army...until then, the Warden avoided the main Darkspawn forces. If Hawke stayed in Lothering any longer, s/he would have faced the the strongest part of the horde.

You'd think this would be obvious to people.

Oh but for some people in this thread it's okay for Hawke to put her family on a boat to Kirkwall and say "Screw you guys, I'm going back to fight a losing battle". <_<

[jlb524]

mrcrusty wrote...

Not all decisions need to change the world state or narrative, nor should they.

While this is a slight off topic tangent to the character of Hawke, I'm seeing a misconception that choices = changing world state. To be fair, most of BioWare's choices have always been about changing world state, usually through the use of slides.

But here's the thing. I find Hawke's role to be utterly pitiful in Dragon Age 2 because his/her decisions don't matter.

The problem is that DA2 didn't have cool epilogue slides.  Why?  I don't know.  I kind of miss those, but I assume it's b/c they plan to do something later with an expansion or something (at least I hope). 

However, I still think Hawke's decisions did matter...on a personal level.  Like, with Fenryiel.  Her/his decisions affected that person's life.  It's not a 'world state' thing, but it's something and it's important to that individual.  I personally really like that. 

Hawke's influence seemed to be limited to the people in Kirkwall and in nothing 'bigger'...though it may down the road...we don't know. 

Modifié par jlb524, 04 août 2011 - 05:09 .

[Aeowyn]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Honestly, if she was dating the guy and he sent her lillies I sincerely doubt she would suspect him of being the killer still. White lillies is not some rarity, and despite Hawke's warning, I doubt Leandra would actually suspect the man she is dating to be a killer. 
And since Leandra says that she's not ready to introduce him yet, I'm sure as hell am not going to force my Mum to get her new bloke to meet her kid.

Oh she doesn't have to. All Hawke has to do is suspect him. All it takes is her hesitating before going "oh please X isn't the killer!" before Hawke starts stalking X. 

I would. Rather have my mom mad at me for sticking my nose into her business then dead. 

But what exactly would make Hawke suspect him? The fact that he's dating your mother. I'm sorry but that would make for a really paranoid Hawke.

[erynnar]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh ffuuuu why didn't my Warden have the option to leave to Rivain instead of going through all the trouble? Huh? HUH?!

Seriously, this "where's my option to do what i want" argument is getting tiresome. You can't have a story without some limiting conditions

And then there is this^. Which I have pointed out. It would have been nice to have the save Eleanor option, but really she needed to die to make revenge against Howe even more poignant.

I don't understand why I couldn't save Leandra though, the quest seemed ideal to be one of those that could be an impact at least to Hawke and you still would have been disgusted by a certain Elf mage at the end.

But as Mash pointed out, it is a story that has to have limits. But there is a fine line between railroading to get the story out and showing.

[erynnar]

Aeowyn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Honestly, if she was dating the guy and he sent her lillies I sincerely doubt she would suspect him of being the killer still. White lillies is not some rarity, and despite Hawke's warning, I doubt Leandra would actually suspect the man she is dating to be a killer. 
And since Leandra says that she's not ready to introduce him yet, I'm sure as hell am not going to force my Mum to get her new bloke to meet her kid.

Oh she doesn't have to. All Hawke has to do is suspect him. All it takes is her hesitating before going "oh please X isn't the killer!" before Hawke starts stalking X. 

I would. Rather have my mom mad at me for sticking my nose into her business then dead. 

But what exactly would make Hawke suspect him? The fact that he's dating your mother. I'm sorry but that would make for a really paranoid Hawke.

RIght, so your mom mentions she's dating, and you never ask her to bring
him to dinner? You never meet him? Never suss him out?

And as for leaving them on a boat for Kirkwall? Well then I guess it's okay for the Warden to say F' You Ferelden I'm going to Orlais or Tevinter, I don't care if all of you die and the land is corrupted from the Blight. Which is an argument I have heard a lot on these forums. So, yeah, I think we can move on. We get the point that you are all APPALLED at the suggestion.  

Modifié par erynnar, 04 août 2011 - 05:14 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

jlb524 wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Not all decisions need to change the world state or narrative, nor should they.

While this is a slight off topic tangent to the character of Hawke, I'm seeing a misconception that choices = changing world state. To be fair, most of BioWare's choices have always been about changing world state, usually through the use of slides.

But here's the thing. I find Hawke's role to be utterly pitiful in Dragon Age 2 because his/her decisions don't matter.

The problem is that DA2 didn't have cool epilogue slides.  Why?  I don't know.  I kind of miss those, but I assume it's b/c they plan to do something later with an expansion or something (at least I hope). 

However, I still think Hawke's decisions did matter...on a personal level.  Like, with Fenryiel.  Her/his decisions affected that person's life.  It's not a 'world state' thing, but it's something and it's important to that individual.  I personally really like that. 

Hawke's influence seemed to be limited to the people in Kirkwall and in nothing 'bigger'...though it may down the road...we don't know. 

Like I said, I don't need world state changes.

I specifically used quests like Magistrate's Son and Bone Pit when talking about how DA 2 did not show consequence and how it could've.

If you make a choice, and the game isn't around to knowledge it, does it really matter?

[Frusciante31]

Hawke is neither careless nor inept IMHO. Hawke tries and fails, and  at times succeeds only to have it slip away.  A lot like real life, maybe that is what scares people.

well put - couldn't agree more.

If you make a choice, and the game isn't around to knowledge it, does it really matter?

Yes, because it shapes the conception of the character in your head.

Modifié par Frusciante31, 04 août 2011 - 05:14 .

[jlb524]

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh ffuuuu why didn't my Warden have the option to leave to Rivain instead of going through all the trouble? Huh? HUH?!

Seriously, this "where's my option to do what i want" argument is getting tiresome. You can't have a story without some limiting conditions

This.  I could especially see a Dalish Warden going to Ostagar just to get the cure for her or his 'taint' and then afterwards, sneaking off in the middle of the night to rejoin the clan.  However, that is not an option.

[Realmzmaster]

jlb524 wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Not all decisions need to change the world state or narrative, nor should they.

While this is a slight off topic tangent to the character of Hawke, I'm seeing a misconception that choices = changing world state. To be fair, most of BioWare's choices have always been about changing world state, usually through the use of slides.

But here's the thing. I find Hawke's role to be utterly pitiful in Dragon Age 2 because his/her decisions don't matter.

The problem is that DA2 didn't have cool epilogue slides.  Why?  I don't know.  I kind of miss those, but I assume it's b/c they plan to do something later with an expansion or something (at least I hope). 

However, I still think Hawke's decisions did matter...on a personal level.  Like, with Fenryiel.  Her/his decisions affected that person's life.  It's not a 'world state' thing, but it's something and it's important to that individual.  I personally really like that. 

Hawke's influence seemed to be limited to the people in Kirkwall and in nothing 'bigger'...though it may down the road...we don't know. 

Actually you did get epilogue slides except they were not at the end. The letters served as the final points to certain quests to tie them up. Depending on if you saw them that way.

[Ryzaki]

Aeowyn wrote...
But what exactly would make Hawke suspect him? The fact that he's dating your mother. I'm sorry but that would make for a really paranoid Hawke.

Other than the fact that despite them dating for years he nor anyone other than Leandra has ever seen the man? That would make plenty of people suspicious. That's not normal. If you're that reluctant to show yourself you're hiding something. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 août 2011 - 05:15 .

[Addai]

Aeowyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Frusciante31 wrote...

1.  Hawke is trying to protect his mother and siblings by getting them to Kirkwall where they are safe from the Blight.

So she gets them to Gwaren, puts them on a ship and waves goodbye.  Did you see those schmucks in Redcliffe leaving their families behind to go fight?  Why couldn't we have played one of them?

You obviously are not an elder sibling, or have never been forced to be responsible of a family member or you wouldn't even have made that suggestion.

And yes, where exactly would Hawke leave to fight? Since they flee Lothering shortly after Ostagar, there is no army to join against the Blight.

Soldiers do it all the time and have done throughout history.  I'm sure they're not all younger siblings.

You stay to fight the Blight, and since it's stipulated that Hawke and Aveline are both anti-Loghain, to fight him.  If they had stuck around a little while, they'd have heard that Bannorn were rebelling and could have joined in.

It's fine if you didn't care about that.  I'm saying this is what makes Hawke a loser in my book from word one.  The rest of the game just confirms it.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[Aeowyn]

erynnar wrote...

Mash Mashington wrote...

Oh ffuuuu why didn't my Warden have the option to leave to Rivain instead of going through all the trouble? Huh? HUH?!

Seriously, this "where's my option to do what i want" argument is getting tiresome. You can't have a story without some limiting conditions

And then there is this^. Which I have pointed out. It would have been nice to have the save Eleanor option, but really she needed to die to make revenge against Howe even more poignant.

I don't understand why I couldn't save Leandra though, the quest seemed ideal to be one of those that could be an impact at least to Hawke and you still would have been disgusted by a certain Elf mage at the end.

But as Mash pointed out, it is a story that has to have limits. But there is a fine line between railroading to get the story out and showing.

Because perhaps Leandra wasn't meant to be saved, and personally I liked that. I don't know where you get this "wait until nightfall" thing. If it's because you can only continue that quest during nightfall, I just saw it as it being night when Hawke spoke to Gamlen in her estate.
But yeah, I like the fact that you can't save Leandra. You want options but maybe this is one of the things where options aren't supposed to be available, and then Hawke questions everything s/he did in hindsight. Just like real grief is if you suddenly lose a family member or friend to an unexpected death.

[jlb524]

mrcrusty wrote...

Like I said, I don't need world state changes.

I specifically used quests like Magistrate's Son and Bone Pit when talking about how DA 2 did not show consequence and how it could've.

If you make a choice, and the game isn't around to knowledge it, does it really matter?

I agree that they could have done a better job showing consequences for the choices mentioned.  But in some cases, they did.  Some choices can be meaningless, though.  Especially with the Magistrate...when Hawke becomes a noble, perhaps s/he can't be touched (if killing his son)? 

[erynnar]

Frusciante31 wrote...

Hawke is neither careless nor inept IMHO. Hawke tries and fails, and  at times succeeds only to have it slip away.  A lot like real life, maybe that is what scares people.

well put - couldn't agree more.

If you make a choice, and the game isn't around to knowledge it, does it really matter?

Yes, because it shapes the conception of the character in your head.

Ah yes, because what I need more of is real life. I thought that we were trying to escape that by playing a video game. Silly me. Again, I deal with trying and failing which have real life consequences on people's lives (homeless cancer patients anyone?). So, I really don't need to have my avatar be a completely inept loser whose presence really doesn't matter.

[Aeowyn]

Addai67 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Frusciante31 wrote...

1.  Hawke is trying to protect his mother and siblings by getting them to Kirkwall where they are safe from the Blight.

So she gets them to Gwaren, puts them on a ship and waves goodbye.  Did you see those schmucks in Redcliffe leaving their families behind to go fight?  Why couldn't we have played one of them?

You obviously are not an elder sibling, or have never been forced to be responsible of a family member or you wouldn't even have made that suggestion.

And yes, where exactly would Hawke leave to fight? Since they flee Lothering shortly after Ostagar, there is no army to join against the Blight.

Soldiers do it all the time and have done throughout history.  I'm sure they're not all younger siblings.

You stay to fight the Blight, and since it's stipulated that Hawke and Aveline are both anti-Loghain, to fight him.  If they had stuck around a little while, they'd have heard that Bannorn were rebelling and could have joined in.

It's fine if you didn't care about that.  I'm saying this is what makes Hawke a loser in my book from word one.

And since when is Hawke a trained soldier? Aveline was one, but Hawke wasn't. Besides, if Hawke stayed so would Carver, and that leaves Mum and Bethany to fend for themselves.
Family was the bigger value in this story, not heroism and personal glory.

I'm sorry Addai, but your reasoning for Hawke being a loser is a pretty bad reason. Obviously you want a Warden 2.0.