539 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Aeowyn wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

They did respond. But people kept going on over and over again, ranting and pointing out the same things everywhere. It's not bloody possible for them to respond to everything, and in the end it gets very tiring. They've gotten the point, and repeating something over and over again loses its original point and just makes it become a rant.

They responded negatively in the early days. They refused to acknowledge any problems with plot, gameplay or characterisation until extremely recently.

How they're responding now doesn't change how they responded when the reviews that WEREN'T paid off by EA started coming out, how they responded when their fans started pointing out what was wrong. It still does not change that Dragon Age 2, ultimately, was a failure.

I'm happy they listened, I'm happy they're taking in the feedback seriously now and I'm happy that it will hopefully avoid making DA3 everything that made DA2 bad.

But I'm not happy it took them this long and I'm certainly not happy they insulted some of their longest time fans for the favour of newer button mashers.

So I'm guessing you didn't read Mike Laidlaw's post in the early days then?

No, but if it was what you're suggesting, then Laidlaw was chirping two different tunes a lot of the time. Not that it matters. Even if you ignore that, it doesn't change the fact the game still didn't do so well.

Hawke was a boring character in an incosistant storyline.

I'm happy for Legacy, it means they're listening, it means they're changing, it means that Dragon Age 3 will hopefully be great. But Legacy won't change what DA2 is, it won't change the fact that I think Hawke is an overrated hero.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 04 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[Addai]

Aeowyn wrote...
And since when is Hawke a trained soldier? Aveline was one, but Hawke wasn't.

If Hawke is a warrior or rogue, they were in the army at Ostagar.  If they're a mage, you're right about this.  It's still not a person I can admire.

Besides, if Hawke stayed so would Carver, and that leaves Mum and Bethany to fend for themselves.
Family was the bigger value in this story, not heroism and personal glory.

So you leave to go next door and just wait for the Blight to come get you.  How is that protecting your family?  The sibling is a capable fighter, and for all Hawke knows, they are getting on a ship to a place where Leandra is part of a respected family.  There's no reason for the elder sibling to go with them.

I'm sorry Addai, but your reasoning for Hawke being a loser is a pretty bad reason. Obviously you want a Warden 2.0.

Opinions, opinions.  And like I said, this is only the first sign of Hawke's ineptitude.  The rest of the game confirms it.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2011 - 02:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hawke supposedly not being able to fight is directly contradicted when the entire game has him massacre waves anyways. Heck, even at the beginning he massacred darkspawn in the wave load.

Gameplay / story segregation has always been a problem in Bioware games, but it's excessively so in DA2, imo. Hawke ends up being a killing machine, with the trappings of a poorly made overall and personal story to give some flavor to it and some shallow meaning to all the massacres he is inflicting (though often, there is no meaning), imo.

That's one major reason why I dislike Hawke incidentally.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The comparison to Redcliffe made earlier is somewhat faulty too. The people of Redcliffe couldn't flee if they wanted to. The Undead would attack them if they tried to leave during the day. They were trapped. The people of Lothering were not.

My comparison to Redcliffe was the cutscene at the end, of the militia marching off to Denerim to face the horde and a father saying goodbye to his wife and son.

[dragonfire100]

Addai67 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The comparison to Redcliffe made earlier is somewhat faulty too. The people of Redcliffe couldn't flee if they wanted to. The Undead would attack them if they tried to leave during the day. They were trapped. The people of Lothering were not.

My comparison to Redcliffe was the cutscene at the end, of the militia marching off to Denerim to face the horde and a father saying goodbye to his wife and son.

I got one question what makes the warden so much better then hawke i mean on DA2 when you switch to another person like anders and you press on hawke he/she talks the warden could not even do that.

Modifié par dragonfire100, 04 août 2011 - 03:08 .

[Addai]

cmessaz wrote...
Gonna have to go with Aeowyn on this one .....O_o. YEAH I'm gonna go back and fight the entire horde mkay? So...maybe my warden should have stayed in Lothering too and made a stand against the horde! Cuz apparently the warden was THAT awesome.

You don't stay in Lothering.  You fall back and regroup to fight again.  Which is why I said Hawke should have put their family on the ship in Gwaren and waved goodbye.  At this point people are just arguing about things that were never stated.

Also throwing my vote in for Hawke in DA3, or a new protagonist for what it's worth. In this thread it probably means nothing but...there it is. My warden had her ending, leave it be please. And no I don't want a Warden 2.0. It amazes me how people are so unwilling to see past their Warden to enjoy a new game. It also amazes me how people dis a character THEY basically define...but whatever. Have fun bashing while I play video games and await Skyrim.

It's not about keeping the Warden.  I don't care about that.

[Addai]

dragonfire100 wrote...
I got one question what makes the warden so much better then hawke i mean on DA2 when you switch to another person like anders and you press on hawke he/she talks the warden could not even do that.

I dislike player VO a lot, but the thread really isn't about that, it's about the characterization of Hawke.

[ArcanistLibram]

I played as a Mage for my first playthrough because I wanted to boot all the templars out of Kirkwall and turn the city into a magocracy. Does Hawke ever hang out with other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever think of anything to help other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever do anything to hinder Meredith? Nope. Do the apostates that Hawke does help (always because someone else asked him to) ever show any gratitude towards him? Nope. Does Hawke ever use reputation to improve the image of other mages in the city? Nope. Does Hawke ever use his connections to help the other mages in the city? Of course not, he never even bothers to make connections in the first place. The nobility of Kirkwall just accepted him as a peer without Hawke ever having to do anything to earn their respect and killing the Arishok just made him the most popular guy in Kirkwall by a slightly larger margin.

So for some reason, I figured the problem was that setting up Kirkwall as a magocracy just wasn't possible in the setting, but a normal warrior should have no problem becoming viscount, right? So I started a new playthrough as a warrior.

Lo and behold, it turns out Hawke is equally useless no matter what class he is or who he supports. I guess he does a better job of ingratiating himself to the templars, but they still turn on Meredith anyway if you're a mage, so it doesn't really matter. I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

The fact is, Hawke might not be a bad character. However, the heavily railroaded plot means that Hawke cannot make decisions that he should logically be able to make and the whole thing turns into a massive case of plot-induced stupidity.

Modifié par ArcanistLibram, 04 août 2011 - 03:19 .

[Aeowyn]

Addai67 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
And since when is Hawke a trained soldier? Aveline was one, but Hawke wasn't.

If Hawke is a warrior or rogue, they were in the army at Ostagar.  If they're a mage, you're right about this.  It's still not a person I can admire.

Just because they were in the army it doesn't mean that they were actually trained soldiers in the King's Army. Not like Aveline. And if you still can't admire mage Hawke, well obviously something about it rubs you the wrong way.
Half the army was gone and the rest were left to fend for themselves. I'm sorry, but your notion that Hawke would be able to regroup somewhere to fight Loghain is pretty unreasonable.

Besides, if Hawke stayed so would Carver, and that leaves Mum and Bethany to fend for themselves.
Family was the bigger value in this story, not heroism and personal glory.

So you leave to go next door and just wait for the Blight to come get you.  How is that protecting your family?  The sibling is a capable fighter, and for all Hawke knows, they are getting on a ship to a place where Leandra is part of a respected family.  There's no reason for the elder sibling to go with them.

Next door? There's a sea between Ferelden and the Free Marches. Once the darkspawn swept over Ferelden they would most like go to Orlais. And again, I don't see how Hawke could've stopped the tide. IIRC Carver was injured during that battle, and by the time he was well enough the darkspawn were approaching Lothering.
And respected family? Yeah okay, obviously you missed the part where the Amell name no longer meant anything in Kirkwall and that Gamlen had to bribe smugglers/mercenaries with the Hawke siblings in order to be able to let them through the gates.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ArcanistLibram wrote...
I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

I think that scenario is just bad. You are not given a choice, it's once again forced on you. With no other qualification other than Hawke being an excellent killing machine. And all the previous choices do not matter at all. And it's inconsequential anyways.

So yea, I felt that was a bad and awkward pat on the head.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2011 - 03:33 .

[Addai]

Aeowyn wrote...
Just because they were in the army it doesn't mean that they were actually trained soldiers in the King's Army.

..... You're... stretching at this point.

Half the army was gone and the rest were left to fend for themselves. I'm sorry, but your notion that Hawke would be able to regroup somewhere to fight Loghain is pretty unreasonable.

Yet somehow Bann Teagan and some in the Bannorn still felt compelled to do it.

IIRC Carver was injured during that battle, and by the time he was well enough the darkspawn were approaching Lothering.

It says they've been running since Ostagar, and once again, this is not about staying in Lothering.

It's certainly possible that staying in Ferelden to fight would not have made any difference.  Then, however, I could see Hawke as a tragic figure, rather than just a coward or someone who's basically in it for herself.

And respected family? Yeah okay, obviously you missed the part where the Amell name no longer meant anything in Kirkwall and that Gamlen had to bribe smugglers/mercenaries with the Hawke siblings in order to be able to let them through the gates.

They didn't know that until they got to Kirkwall.

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The comparison to Redcliffe made earlier is somewhat faulty too. The people of Redcliffe couldn't flee if they wanted to. The Undead would attack them if they tried to leave during the day. They were trapped. The people of Lothering were not.

My comparison to Redcliffe was the cutscene at the end, of the militia marching off to Denerim to face the horde and a father saying goodbye to his wife and son.

Can't really compare them at that point. Lothering was a crater in the ground after being abandoned by the military. Redcliffe was the staging ground for the post-landsmeet forces. Entirely different.

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The comparison to Redcliffe made earlier is somewhat faulty too. The people of Redcliffe couldn't flee if they wanted to. The Undead would attack them if they tried to leave during the day. They were trapped. The people of Lothering were not.

My comparison to Redcliffe was the cutscene at the end, of the militia marching off to Denerim to face the horde and a father saying goodbye to his wife and son.

Can't really compare them at that point. Lothering was a crater in the ground after being abandoned by the military. Redcliffe was the staging ground for the post-landsmeet forces. Entirely different.

I don't know how many times I can say this?  I'm not saying Hawke should have stayed in Lothering.  Get out of the blight zone, get your family on a ship, then go back and see what you can do about the mess Ferelden is in.  People are claiming that no one leaves their family to go fight, and that is simply not true.  The goodbye scene in Redcliffe is an example of a man leaving his family behind to fight against the darkspawn.

However, I'd also not like to belabor the point too much (more).  Taken in isolation, I maybe could have gotten past this.  Hawke gets a close-up look at the horde and is cheesed off at Loghain, and in a moment of weakness or selfishness decides to head for the hills.  If there was something else in the game that moved her past such a low point, I would be able to reconcile myself.  Instead it's all more of the same, down to the terribly unsatisfying conclusion.  I don't play video games to play a loser.

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't know how many times I can say this?  I'm not saying Hawke should have stayed in Lothering.  Get out of the blight zone, get your family on a ship, then go back and see what you can do about the mess Ferelden is in.  People are claiming that no one leaves their family to go fight, and that is simply not true.  The goodbye scene in Redcliffe is an example of a man leaving his family behind to fight against the darkspawn.

However, I'd also not like to belabor the point too much (more).  Taken in isolation, I maybe could have gotten past this.  Hawke gets a close-up look at the horde and is cheesed off at Loghain, and in a moment of weakness or selfishness decides to head for the hills.  If there was something else in the game that moved her past such a low point, I would be able to reconcile myself.  Instead it's all more of the same, down to the terribly unsatisfying conclusion.  I don't play video games to play a loser.

Here's the point you're missing. The man leaving his family behind to fight against that Darkspawn? That was Hawke and Carver. They already did that. They purposely left home to join the forces at Ostagar. To stop the blight before it could move on Ferelden. It was only when they witnessed the King's death and Loghain's betrayal that they left to save their family a little more personally.

It had nothing at all to do with weakness or selfishness on Hawke's part. He tried, and the country proved it wasn't worth saving. Protecting family comes first. Putting them on a random ship and hoping they got where they were going to protect a country that was trying to kill itself makes no sense at all.

[alex90c]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...
I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

I think that scenario is just bad. You are not given a choice, it's once again forced on you. With no other qualification other than Hawke being an excellent killing machine. And all the previous choices do not matter at all. And it's inconsequential anyways.

So yea, I felt that was a bad and awkward pat on the head.

^this

You could even say having a diplomatic Hawke personality was Bioware's way of satirising their own game since he'll still be a killing machine regardless of how "diplomatic" he is.

[Sister Helen]

Wow. This thread went to a weird place.

[FieryDove]

lady constance wrote...

The difference is, I'm not going to call you an idiot for having a different opinion.

That may be so but you are a "Hater" so your opinion on anything is invalid.
(Yes I am joking but the other person appears to not be)

<Does not hate Hawke. Hawke is meh. Hater title please go extinct.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sister Helen wrote...

Wow. This thread went to a weird place.

Yep. Kirkwall.

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
It had nothing at all to do with weakness or selfishness on Hawke's part. He tried, and the country proved it wasn't worth saving. Protecting family comes first. Putting them on a random ship and hoping they got where they were going to protect a country that was trying to kill itself makes no sense at all.

Oh, well- they tried so that's that?  Here's where I do need to contrast with the Warden.  Take my Dalish Warden.  Ferelden was not even her country and she still stayed to fight the Blight.  Or contrast with Shepard.  Renegade Shepard and sarcastic Hawke (both of which I played) make a nice comparison.  Both of them are funny, but only one of them gets things done.  Should Shepard have left the Reapers to someone else because most of the galaxy isn't worth saving anyway?

However, your point does pretty much sum up Hawke from beginning to end of the game.  "Hawke: Rise to Mediocrity."  Except it's not really a rise to so much as a more of the same.

[Realmzmaster]

lady constance wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

lady constance wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...DSC ends with Fereldan getting overrun by the blight.

How exactly does that prove Alistair was more than capable of uniting the lands against the Blight?

Yeahh, I just watched the ending to see for myself. This only proves further that the Warden was necessary in order to defeat the Blight. Loss of faith in Dragon Age retracted.

No it proves that I as the gamer can play both sides and win.  It does not prove that the warden is needed. If Alistair was the PC like Hawke is in DA2 I could take Alistair (or any of the other companions) and win. The PC justs happens to be the warden.

That's a ridiculous argument. It's like saying "I could be given Spongebob Sqaurepants and still win because he's the protagonist of the story and that's how video games work!" Well, guess what? Spongebob isn't the protagonist and neither is Alistair. And it's made that way for a reason. In Origins, within the story, within the lore, within the Dragon Age universe, the Warden is needed to defeat the Blight.

No it says a Grey Warden is needed to end the Blight not your Grey Warden. Alistair is a Grey Warden. Later on you meet Riordan who is a Grey Warden. So either can end the Blight. It does not have to be the PC.The only reason it is the PC is because it is written that way as you say.  And by your reasoning the only reason why the Darkspawn can win in DSC is because it is written that way.  If Bioware allowed you to take over Alistair in the DLC you could win with him.

If Spongebob was a Grey Warden you could win with him also. The only requirement is that you need a Grey Warden. For gameplay sake your character gets to be a Grey Warden. But as far as defeating the ArchDemon either your PC or Alistair can do the job.

[Realmzmaster]

Addai67 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The comparison to Redcliffe made earlier is somewhat faulty too. The people of Redcliffe couldn't flee if they wanted to. The Undead would attack them if they tried to leave during the day. They were trapped. The people of Lothering were not.

My comparison to Redcliffe was the cutscene at the end, of the militia marching off to Denerim to face the horde and a father saying goodbye to his wife and son.

True, but that soldier knew that his family was safe. The darkspawn and undead are defeated. The Redcliffe area will not come under attack because the battle had moved to the capital. Big difference.

Hawke is trying to get his family to a safe place.

[Addai]

Realmzmaster wrote...
True, but that soldier knew that his family was safe. The darkspawn and undead are defeated. The Redcliffe area will not come under attack because the battle had moved to the capital. Big difference.

Hawke is trying to get his family to a safe place.

No he doesn't.  The darkspawn had attacked Redcliffe, too, and even though they believe the main body is headed to Denerim, that doesn't rule out isolated attacks elsewhere.

Again, the other Hawke sibling is a fighter, so it's not as if Leandra is helpless.  Aveline is with them as well, since she's also determined to leave Ferelden (with even less justification).

If you think I haven't thought this through, you'd be wrong.  Most of my dissatisfaction with the game story came from chewing it over for a while and replaying, not a kneejerk reaction.

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...

Oh, well- they tried so that's that? Here's where I do need to contrast with the Warden. Take my Dalish Warden. Ferelden was not even her country and she still stayed to fight the Blight. Or contrast with Shepard. Renegade Shepard and sarcastic Hawke (both of which I played) make a nice comparison. Both of them are funny, but only one of them gets things done. Should Shepard have left the Reapers to someone else because most of the galaxy isn't worth saving anyway?

However, your point does pretty much sum up Hawke from beginning to end of the game. "Hawke: Rise to Mediocrity." Except it's not really a rise to so much as a more of the same.

Are you really complaining that Hawke, who was just a simple soldier at that point did not take responsibility for ending the blight? He had no capacity to do so even if he wanted to. He wasn't a Warden. He wasn't immune to the blight or could provide a vessel for the Archdemon. It wasn't his responsibility. It was your Dalish Warden's responsibility. And even she was fleeing at that point.

Anyway it seems silly to fault Hawke for not taking responsibility for the events of the game we already played through. It feels like you were just looking for a reason to have issue with him.

(Edit: To clarify, I mean at that point in the story. Your opinion on what comes after, isn't what I'm arguing. I don't agree with it, but I can see why you might feel that way.)

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 04 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[andrastesASS]

There have been a lot of excellent points brought up and I think I’d like to (foolishly) throw myself into the fray.

First of all, id like to point out that there is indeed a significant difference in the Warden and Hawke. I can relate why some people dislike Hawke for being seemingly inactive. I do have to agree, Hawke is NOT a pro-active character. The reason Hawke is hated so much sometimes is because he was not INTENDED to be a proactive character, as opposed to the Warden. As a Warden, your job was to ACTIVELY fight the Blight, and Origins did a pretty good job of portraying that. But Hawke is trying to FLEE the Blight. To SURVIVE. To REACT to his surroundings. Hawke doesn’t leap into Kirkwall to make a difference. It just happened. In case you were all asleep the first 15 minutes of gameplay, Hawke is just trying to get his family into the city safely. So yes, you could say Hawke is a REACTIVE person. The entire story is MADE to show how you react to things beyond your control. As for choices not having consequences, do you honestly think that everything you’ve done in DA2 and DAO won’t make a difference in DA3? Let us not forget why Varric is telling Hawke’s story anyway. Cassandra is trying to save a world on the brink of WAR. Let us not forget that even by accident, Hawke is an important character to the commoners. What sides you took and choices you made and people you saved WILL make a difference. People talk as if DA ended with DA2, when really, it’s only just begun.

Second, id like to address the dialogue wheel issue. Of all the arguments against Hawke and DA2, this is the most idiotic to argue about. I tire of reading (not referring to anyone in here specifically, just speaking generally) half-witted responses to the wheel issue like “I don’t like not knowing exactly what im saying.” Or “ there really didn’t seem to be a choice in what to say” or “the personality choices seems shallow/general/etc”

To the first one- yeah. I agree. I found this a little frustrating at first, but then, most people are ALWAYS going to find something to complain about. Personally, I like the wheel system because you know what tone you’ll be using so you don’t accidentally ****** off the wrong person like in DAO, but at the same time, I do miss the fact that you know exactly what your reply will be. Verdict= you gotta pick your battles. There will NEVER be a game that doesn’t have a few cons. Cry me a river.

To the second- oh mah gawd really? Youre guaranteed at least three replies (unless making a pivotal plot choice or accepting a quest) and news flash –YOU DON’T HAVE TO CHOOSE ONE TYPE OF RESPONSE ALL THE TIME! Magical right? Just like a real person can joke with one person and be a douche to another, so can Hawke. I find the adaptability kind of refreshing. Granted, DAO had that ability most of the time, it was more difficult to classify some replies as sarcastic or douche-y.

To the third- ok. That’s kinda fair. But since I feel like im getting burnt out on this point, ill put it this way- there’s not gonna be a game that’s going to have a tailored reply to everything an npc does or says. Its just not gonna happen. If it did, games would take 10 years to make because every fricking NPC would have to be outfitted with a ALICE bot style reply system, and then some ****headed perv would-

*sigh*

Moving on.

Third- and probably final- point, I want to touch on the customization issue. I know several people are dissatisfied with the lack of customization and narrow window of choice in the beginning for Hawke, and I completely understand, but what people have to realize is that its not called “Dragon Age ORIGINS 2” just “Dragon Age 2” . this is an entirely different idea. Origins focused on how an unlikely hero arises from unlikely places and defeats the Blight.Da2…. WASN’T. While I felt that DA2 COULD have been better, I am at peace about all the disappointments because im looking at the big picture. Yeah. DA2 WAS a bit like a movie, and I think bioware knew EXACTLY what they were doing too. If any of you have seen, or even read reviews of the last two Harry Potter movies, you know that some people found Part 1 worn out, long, dull, and boring. Sound familiar? Then think about Part 2. I haven’t heard a negative comment about it YET. Do you know why? Because Part 1 did its job. It gave the viewer all the information needed to understand and LOVE Part 2. Just like DA2. While DA2 is often seen as boring, worn out, and dull, it is giving the player all the gritty details you’ll HAVE to know when DA3 comes out. What would Part 2 have been without Part 1?

So why cant we stop hating on Hawke and accept him and DA2 for what it (hopefully) is- a stepladder to DA3 heaven

And if DA3 ends up sucking, then you can all come back and stone me for all this besides, ****ing about it’s not gonna make it any better


also, i know this is a bit unrelated to the current argument, but i was bored and felt the need to vent

Modifié par andrastesASS, 04 août 2011 - 06:50 .

[Sister Helen]

Some folks like Hawke; some don't.

It's all good. 8D

*starts whistling the theme from the DisneyWorld ride, "It's a Small World."