539 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Are you really complaining that Hawke, who was just a simple soldier at that point did not take responsibility for ending the blight? He had no capacity to do so even if he wanted to. He wasn't a Warden. He wasn't immune to the blight or could provide a vessel for the Archdemon. It wasn't his responsibility. It was your Dalish Warden's responsibility. And even she was fleeing at that point.

No, I'm complaining she didn't try to fight.  A lot of ordinary Fereldans stay and fight without immunity or taking a vow.  Most of my Wardens weren't thrilled about the order.  Yes, they were compelled by the game to stay and fight- but that makes them a character I can respect and thus enjoy playing.

Aveline and Hawke both complain about darkspawn and Loghain's treachery, but they're not willing to do anything about it.  "We did our part at Ostagar, now we're outta here" isn't exactly compelling characterization for someone who's supposed to end up a champion.

Anyway it seems silly to fault Hawke for not taking responsibility for the events of the game we already played through. It feels like you were just looking for a reason to have issue with him.

It's not hard to find reasons, believe me.  As I've pointed out numerous times, this is only one, though it's a fundamental one.  The other big one being a carelessness and irresponsibility towards Anders.

[Realmzmaster]

alex90c wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...
I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

I think that scenario is just bad. You are not given a choice, it's once again forced on you. With no other qualification other than Hawke being an excellent killing machine. And all the previous choices do not matter at all. And it's inconsequential anyways.

So yea, I felt that was a bad and awkward pat on the head.

^this

You could even say having a diplomatic Hawke personality was Bioware's way of satirising their own game since he'll still be a killing machine regardless of how "diplomatic" he is.

Both the warden and Hawke are killing machines. In most if not all Bioware games the main protagonist is a killing machine. In both DAO and DA2 most of the disputes are resolved through combat.

Combat is one of the hallmarks of CRPGS. Gamers want the cool gear, spells etc and then the ability to use them.
How many people want to play Dragon Age:The Diplomat? Or Dragon Age: Rise to Politics?

How many of you wanted to talk to Copy at the end of Legacy and help bring him into the light or did you want to have a bad ass final battle?
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

[phaonica]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I played as a Mage for my first playthrough because I wanted to boot all the templars out of Kirkwall and turn the city into a magocracy. Does Hawke ever hang out with other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever think of anything to help other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever do anything to hinder Meredith? Nope. Do the apostates that Hawke does help (always because someone else asked him to) ever show any gratitude towards him? Nope. Does Hawke ever use reputation to improve the image of other mages in the city? Nope. Does Hawke ever use his connections to help the other mages in the city? Of course not, he never even bothers to make connections in the first place. The nobility of Kirkwall just accepted him as a peer without Hawke ever having to do anything to earn their respect and killing the Arishok just made him the most popular guy in Kirkwall by a slightly larger margin.

My second playthrough was a mage and I thought, as much as people in Kirkwall hate mages, surely the game will change up a little as I am forced to play more 'underground' and be driven into hiding. That was some wishful thinking right there. I really had to force the perspective of a mage in hiding because my mage was only barely acknowledged as being one.

The fact is, Hawke might not be a bad character. However, the heavily railroaded plot means that Hawke cannot make decisions that he should logically be able to make and the whole thing turns into a massive case of plot-induced stupidity.

I mean it's one thing to be railroaded. DAO was also railroaded. Most games follow a mostly linear plot. To me, that's not the problem. The problem imo is that Hawke is railroaded into a position where it feels like he doesn't *do* anything. He can declare his support one direction or another, but a declaration is where his support ends. The game mechanics actively block Hawke from taking any initiative.

It's been suggested that Hawke taking initiative would ruin the point of the story: that Hawke didn't cause the mess with the Chantry. I understand that, but actually playing that out mostly made me/Hawke feel useless.

Modifié par phaonica, 04 août 2011 - 07:04 .

[andrastesASS]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Combat is one of the hallmarks of CRPGS. Gamers want the cool gear, spells etc and then the ability to use them.
How many people want to play Dragon Age:The Diplomat? Or Dragon Age: Rise to Politics?

How many of you wanted to talk to Copy at the end of Legacy and help bring him into the light or did you want to have a bad ass final battle?

 this. this made me LOL

i love this. so true.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

Leaders. Not a band of 4, like I am supposed to be playing a comic book.
Leaders that establish contacts, increase their legitimacy, build alliances, command many and provide for them...etc.

True, all Bioware PCs are killing machines. But in Kotor and ME1 (and to a lesser extent, DA:O). you had sidequests that could be resolved without violence (murder investigation, trial, Major Kyle and Darius....etc). You had opportunity to have a character that could do something other than kill. 

Hawke is the worst of the lot in that regard, because not only is there no sidequest that does not involve violence (or give you the option to play it non-violently) other than the idiotic fetch quests, but every single one of them has you massacring waves over and over again.

And in fact I dislike the fact you can't talk to Cory. I enjoyed talking to the Architect and I appreciate the option of letting him go.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2011 - 07:08 .

[Realmzmaster]

Addai67 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
True, but that soldier knew that his family was safe. The darkspawn and undead are defeated. The Redcliffe area will not come under attack because the battle had moved to the capital. Big difference.

Hawke is trying to get his family to a safe place.

No he doesn't.  The darkspawn had attacked Redcliffe, too, and even though they believe the main body is headed to Denerim, that doesn't rule out isolated attacks elsewhere.

Again, the other Hawke sibling is a fighter, so it's not as if Leandra is helpless.  Aveline is with them as well, since she's also determined to leave Ferelden (with even less justification).

If you think I haven't thought this through, you'd be wrong.  Most of my dissatisfaction with the game story came from chewing it over for a while and replaying, not a kneejerk reaction.

No the wardens would sense any darkspawn in the area according to lore.The attack on Redcliffe was a feint. The purpose was to throw off the main intent. Riordan confirms that when he reports that the darkspawn army is moving to Denerim.  The darkspawn would not ignore the call of the ArchDemon to move amass to Denerim due to their hive mentality. So Redcliffe was safe.

[Cutlass Jack]

Realmzmaster wrote...

How many of you wanted to talk to Copy at the end of Legacy and help bring him into the light or did you want to have a bad ass final battle?

I would have liked the option to treat him to a night with Serendipity at the Blooming Rose. I mean it has been two thousand years. No wonder he's cranky.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And in fact I dislike the fact you can't talk to Cory. I enjoyed talking to the Architect and I appreciate the option of letting him go.

The lack of such option feels extremely weird considering in the end the DLC hints that he is getting away no matter what you do, anyway. The whole "if i can't leave with you i'll leave through you" could use a "but you can leave with me" option, there...

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 août 2011 - 07:17 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

No, I'm complaining she didn't try to fight.  A lot of ordinary Fereldans stay and fight without immunity or taking a vow.  Most of my Wardens weren't thrilled about the order.  Yes, they were compelled by the game to stay and fight- but that makes them a character I can respect and thus enjoy playing.

Aveline and Hawke both complain about darkspawn and Loghain's treachery, but they're not willing to do anything about it.  "We did our part at Ostagar, now we're outta here" isn't exactly compelling characterization for someone who's supposed to end up a champion.

Well, the only option they would likely have been able to see immediately after Ostagar is fighting under the man who - from their perspective, at least - betrayed them.  Or possibly joining in a civil war and killing a bunch of fellow Fereldans, which seems like a dumb thing to do when there's a Blight about.  For Mage Hawke, they can't do anything without revealing themselves anyway, and for Warrior Hawke they have their own family to take care of -  I suppose they could have just seen Beth and MumHawke onto a boat, but then they'd be stuck in Loghain's Teyrnir where I don't see they could achieve anything.

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And in fact I dislike the fact you can't talk to Cory. I enjoyed talking to the Architect and I appreciate the option of letting him go.

I would have liked to talk to Cory, too. He was an interesting character.

[Valo_Soren]

I think Hawke is awesome myself, both the male and female versions so I don't really know what this Hawke hate is about either -shrug-.

[Realmzmaster]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

Leaders. Not a band of 4, like I am supposed to be playing a comic book.
Leaders that establish contacts, increase their legitimacy, build alliances, command many and provide for them...etc.

True, all Bioware PCs are killing machines. But in Kotor and ME1 (and to a lesser extent, DA:O). you had sidequests that could be resolved without violence (murder investigation, trial, Major Kyle and Darius....etc). You had opportunity to have a character that could do something other than kill. 

Hawke is the worst of the lot in that regard, because not only is there no sidequest that does not involve violence (or give you the option to play it non-violently) other than the idiotic fetch quests, but every single one of them has you massacring waves over and over again.

And in fact I dislike the fact you can't talk to Cory. I enjoyed talking to the Architect and I appreciate the option of letting him go.

I agree with you it would have been nice to have some quests that had a non-violent solution. You know that aside from the story many gamers play the game to collect cool gear to customize their characters, learn fun spells for the purpose of decimating everything in sight.

The chance to talk to the Architect and let him go was cool. You could do that because you still had Mother as the final boss. You could not do that in Legacy because Copy was the final boss.

It would have been possible if Legacy was part of the main game. You could let Copy go and have him appear later in the game. But since Legacy is dlc that would not be possible. Also gamers expect to have the final boss battle at the end and I suspect that Bioware did not want to disappoint.

[Valo_Soren]

Realmzmaster wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

Leaders. Not a band of 4, like I am supposed to be playing a comic book.
Leaders that establish contacts, increase their legitimacy, build alliances, command many and provide for them...etc.

True, all Bioware PCs are killing machines. But in Kotor and ME1 (and to a lesser extent, DA:O). you had sidequests that could be resolved without violence (murder investigation, trial, Major Kyle and Darius....etc). You had opportunity to have a character that could do something other than kill. 

Hawke is the worst of the lot in that regard, because not only is there no sidequest that does not involve violence (or give you the option to play it non-violently) other than the idiotic fetch quests, but every single one of them has you massacring waves over and over again.

And in fact I dislike the fact you can't talk to Cory. I enjoyed talking to the Architect and I appreciate the option of letting him go.

I agree with you it would have been nice to have some quests that had a non-violent solution. You know that aside from the story many gamers play the game to collect cool gear to customize their characters, learn fun spells for the purpose of decimating everything in sight.

The chance to talk to the Architect and let him go was cool. You could do that because you still had Mother as the final boss. You could not do that in Legacy because Copy was the final boss.

It would have been possible if Legacy was part of the main game. You could let Copy go and have him appear later in the game. But since Legacy is dlc that would not be possible. Also gamers expect to have the final boss battle at the end and I suspect that Bioware did not want to disappoint.

Unlike the intelligent dark spawn in Awakenings Cophyerus wanted to kill you no matter what choice you would have made because he is one of the first dark spawn. One of the magisters who attacked the Maker's city. There' is a fundamental difference between him and the dark spawn guy in awakenings. Copypherus still seems to think like a Tevinter mage and that all should bow down to him, you can't really say 'oh well you dislike me but hey you're free to go' when he is going to kill you anyway.

[Valo_Soren]

And I'm not sure what people are talking about when it comes to the whole using mostly violence to solve most situations. It's hard not to use violence when people are trying to -kill- you. But there are still plenty of quests that happen that you can get out of non-violently so that complaint is kind of stupid, just saying.

[tmp7704]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The chance to talk to the Architect and let him go was cool. You could do that because you still had Mother as the final boss. You could not do that in Legacy because Copy was the final boss.

Well, the certain RPG which provides option to deal with the final boss entirely through dialogue instead of fighting gets praised sky high for that...

Just because some people like fights doesn't mean there's need to force everyone into these.

[BigBad]

I don't dislike Hawke, but I also don't think that he made a very good protagonist. Hawke was built up as this mythical Champion, a great force in the world for good or ill, and explicitly called at one point "the most important figure in Thedas". Absolutely nothing in the game followed through on this. After playing through DAII twice, I came away with the feeling that Hawke was one of the least-important people in Kirkwall plot-wise, mostly just there to react to the potent and world-shaking decisions of the NPCs who outshine and overshadow him, and the only reason he has any influence at all is because he's really good at killing things and not dying.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valo_Soren wrote...

And I'm not sure what people are talking about when it comes to the whole using mostly violence to solve most situations. It's hard not to use violence when people are trying to -kill- you. But there are still plenty of quests that happen that you can get out of non-violently so that complaint is kind of stupid, just saying.

Then have situations and quest where people don't want to kill you for no reason.
And name those quests in the game please.

[Realmzmaster]

tmp7704 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The chance to talk to the Architect and let him go was cool. You could do that because you still had Mother as the final boss. You could not do that in Legacy because Copy was the final boss.

Well, the certain RPG which provides option to deal with the final boss entirely through dialogue instead of fighting gets praised sky high for that...

Just because some people like fights doesn't mean there's need to force everyone into these.

You are correct about a certain RPG which also has plenty of combat to make up for it. But how many CRPGs do you know that have no combat and every situation is resolved diplomatically.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The chance to talk to the Architect and let him go was cool. You could do that because you still had Mother as the final boss. You could not do that in Legacy because Copy was the final boss.

Well, the certain RPG which provides option to deal with the final boss entirely through dialogue instead of fighting gets praised sky high for that...

Just because some people like fights doesn't mean there's need to force everyone into these.

Well to be fair, the RPG that I think you are talking about had a mandatory boss fight before him.
That said, yes it was an epic choice to let him go and more satisfyingthan any boss fight.

[Valo_Soren]

phaonica wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

I played as a Mage for my first playthrough because I wanted to boot all the templars out of Kirkwall and turn the city into a magocracy. Does Hawke ever hang out with other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever think of anything to help other apostates? Nope. Does Hawke ever do anything to hinder Meredith? Nope. Do the apostates that Hawke does help (always because someone else asked him to) ever show any gratitude towards him? Nope. Does Hawke ever use reputation to improve the image of other mages in the city? Nope. Does Hawke ever use his connections to help the other mages in the city? Of course not, he never even bothers to make connections in the first place. The nobility of Kirkwall just accepted him as a peer without Hawke ever having to do anything to earn their respect and killing the Arishok just made him the most popular guy in Kirkwall by a slightly larger margin.

My second playthrough was a mage and I thought, as much as people in Kirkwall hate mages, surely the game will change up a little as I am forced to play more 'underground' and be driven into hiding. That was some wishful thinking right there. I really had to force the perspective of a mage in hiding because my mage was only barely acknowledged as being one.

The fact is, Hawke might not be a bad character. However, the heavily railroaded plot means that Hawke cannot make decisions that he should logically be able to make and the whole thing turns into a massive case of plot-induced stupidity.

I mean it's one thing to be railroaded. DAO was also railroaded. Most games follow a mostly linear plot. To me, that's not the problem. The problem imo is that Hawke is railroaded into a position where it feels like he doesn't *do* anything. He can declare his support one direction or another, but a declaration is where his support ends. The game mechanics actively block Hawke from taking any initiative.

It's been suggested that Hawke taking initiative would ruin the point of the story: that Hawke didn't cause the mess with the Chantry. I understand that, but actually playing that out mostly made me/Hawke feel useless.

Still through hawkes actions, being used by anders or not, he/she indirectly causes what happens to the Chantry, if Hawke hadn't been there in the first place would his/her actions still have led to the end result? The point of Hawke is he/she is the center piece. One person who rises above all the rest in a city of chaos, rising to power and being the one looked too when things come to a head. And then you guy bye your choices then, who are you sympathetic towards, the templars or mages? It's not about taking initiative and trying to change things, its about being a person of reknown and that great power weighing heavily in responsibility as the city seemed to consider Hawke its most important asset over Merideth and Orsino.

Calling the plot stupid is kind of amateurish when you don't understand the reasons behind the plot in the first place. (That was to the person you quoted). It may feel like you're railroaded but the truth of the fiction is that what happened was inevitable. If it didn't happen in Kirkwall it would happen somewhere else in Thedas. That's the whole point. Anders may be a terrorist but if it wasn't him it would be someone else. The Templars could only squeeze the mages so much. So the choice to side with one or the other is a practice in honor and integrity and who's side are you more sympathetic towards. A soliloquey of politics, racism, and other such social issues, not about Hawke being over powering and using his or her influence to get the mages and templars to shut the hell up. It sounds like that might possibly be what the Seekers were wanting to find Hawke for anyway, to get the two sides to stop fighting and calm them down. Whether that will happen in the third game or not remains to be seen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You are correct about a certain RPG which also has plenty of combat to make up for it. But how many CRPGs do you know that have no combat and every situation is resolved diplomatically.

No one is askign for no variety though. But a certain variety would be nice and would help make Hawke feel less like a killing machine and nothing else, which is the sentiment I have towards him.

[Addai]

Realmzmaster wrote...
No the wardens would sense any darkspawn in the area according to lore.The attack on Redcliffe was a feint. The purpose was to throw off the main intent. Riordan confirms that when he reports that the darkspawn army is moving to Denerim.  The darkspawn would not ignore the call of the ArchDemon to move amass to Denerim due to their hive mentality. So Redcliffe was safe.

Like they sensed that the horde in Ostagar was much larger than anticipated, that they were coming up through the Ishal tunnels, the Warden not knowing that the archdemon was in the Dead Trenches, and none of them knowing til they got in Redcliffe that the archdemon was moving towards Denerim instead?  The Wardens in Vigil's Keep not knowing they were about to be mauled?  Darkspawn move underground, and Warden sense seems to be a bit chancy.  Leaving your family behind in Redcliffe is no less risky than putting your family on a ship to Kirkwall.  Hawke just sticking her head in the ground and hoping someone solves the blight problem somehow is pretty lame.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[alex90c]

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...
I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

I think that scenario is just bad. You are not given a choice, it's once again forced on you. With no other qualification other than Hawke being an excellent killing machine. And all the previous choices do not matter at all. And it's inconsequential anyways.

So yea, I felt that was a bad and awkward pat on the head.

^this

You could even say having a diplomatic Hawke personality was Bioware's way of satirising their own game since he'll still be a killing machine regardless of how "diplomatic" he is.

Both the warden and Hawke are killing machines. In most if not all Bioware games the main protagonist is a killing machine. In both DAO and DA2 most of the disputes are resolved through combat.

Combat is one of the hallmarks of CRPGS. Gamers want the cool gear, spells etc and then the ability to use them.
How many people want to play Dragon Age:The Diplomat? Or Dragon Age: Rise to Politics?

How many of you wanted to talk to Copy at the end of Legacy and help bring him into the light or did you want to have a bad ass final battle?
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

Yes, the Warden is a killing machine, but there are plenty of situations you can resolve or places you can get past while avoiding confrontations. Take Lothering for example:

1 encounter (bandits on the highway) - you can intimidate to stop a battle
3 bandit groups outside Lothering which you can COMPLETELY skip
A whole load of wolves you can avoid if you don't accept the quest involving a child's mother
Spiders you can completely avoid in Old Barlin's quest (you can just make the venom w/o the toxin extracts from those spiders)
Bears you can avoid simply because ... you can

The only forced encounters in Lothering is the one just before leaving the place northwards against Darkspawn, you don't even have to recruit Leliana (and go up against Loghain's lackeys in there).

Compare this to Kirkwall at night where it's practically impossible to avoid encounters (trust me, i've tried going to Isabela during her recruitment quest and getting jumped by those Guardsman pretenders just when I think I've sneaked past them)

EVERY
DAMN
PLACE
YOU
GO

WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES OF PARATROOPERS

what the hell were bioware thinking doing that? ffs.

they may not realise it, but gamers don't need to have combat shoved in their face (literally) every 30 seconds while travelling around places just to be able to keep their interest in the game. if I was bothered enough to annotate DA2's maps (including quest maps which of course are recycled) to show locations of combat encounters by circling them, there'd be more annotation than actually map by the time I was finished.

Modifié par alex90c, 04 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[Valo_Soren]

alex90c wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...
I was told Hawke became Viscount, but I never got to actually play that part of the game. Which is a shame, because ruling Kirkwall is the only reason why I bought Dragon Age 2 in the first place.

I think that scenario is just bad. You are not given a choice, it's once again forced on you. With no other qualification other than Hawke being an excellent killing machine. And all the previous choices do not matter at all. And it's inconsequential anyways.

So yea, I felt that was a bad and awkward pat on the head.

^this

You could even say having a diplomatic Hawke personality was Bioware's way of satirising their own game since he'll still be a killing machine regardless of how "diplomatic" he is.

Both the warden and Hawke are killing machines. In most if not all Bioware games the main protagonist is a killing machine. In both DAO and DA2 most of the disputes are resolved through combat.

Combat is one of the hallmarks of CRPGS. Gamers want the cool gear, spells etc and then the ability to use them.
How many people want to play Dragon Age:The Diplomat? Or Dragon Age: Rise to Politics?

How many of you wanted to talk to Copy at the end of Legacy and help bring him into the light or did you want to have a bad ass final battle?
Many leaders have slaughtered their way to supremacy.  May not have stayed there long, but they did cut a bloody path.

Yes, the Warden is a killing machine, but there are plenty of situations you can resolve or places you can get past while avoiding confrontations. Take Lothering for example:

1 encounter (bandits on the highway) - you can intimidate to stop a battle
3 bandit groups outside Lothering which you can COMPLETELY skip
A whole load of wolves you can avoid if you don't accept the quest involving a child's mother
Spiders you can completely avoid in Old Barlin's quest (you can just make the venom w/o the toxin extracts from those spiders)
Bears you can avoid simply because ... you can

The only forced encounters in Lothering is the one just before leaving the place northwards against Darkspawn, you don't even have to recruit Leliana (and go up against Loghain's lackeys in there).

Compare this to Kirkwall at night where it's practically impossible to avoid encounters (trust me, i've tried going to Isabela during her recruitment quest and getting jumped by those Guardsman pretenders just when I think I've sneaked past them)

EVERY
DAMN
PLACE
YOU
GO

WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES OF PARATROOPERS

what the hell were bioware thinking doing that? ffs.

they may not realise it, but gamers don't need to have combat shoved in their face (literally) every 30 seconds while travelling around places just to be able to keep their interest in the game. if I was bothered enough to annotate DA2's maps (including quest maps which of course are recycled) to show locations of combat encounters by circling them, there'd be more annotation than actually map by the time I was finished.

Yeah those are street gang quests, muggers who are tryign to kill you, kill enough of them and find their hide out and kill their leader and you get rewarded in gold, you know, like a bounty. They are attacking you because they want to rob, rape, or murder you, not because they want to have a nice conversation.