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[KnightofPhoenix]

I personally liked the concept and premise of playing a refugee a lot actually. But the execution, I thought, left much (and I do mean much) to be desired.

The way it started immediately on the run conveyed no sympathy from me because I didn't see the life he lost. Him massacring darkspawn in the wave load did not give the impression at all that I am playing a desperate refugee on the run. And then Kirkwall happened (or rather everything that should have been there wasn't). So ultimately, I didn't feel playing a refugee, and I didn't feel playing a refugee rising to a high position.

[Thor Rand Al]

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Addai so what you are saying is to fight the blight all Hawke had to do is fight with the Bannorn army...well then doesn't that make my warden a complete moron for running around collecting treaties when s/he could have done the same? I'm sorry but sometimes people just start spouting random things to justify their hate and no offense but that is what this sounds like to me.

Hawke believes Ferelden has fallen victim to Loghain's treachery.  So what does she do about it... "see ya suckers!"  Inspiring.     And that pretty much sums up her approach to dealing with things in Kirkwall, too.

I don't care if you don't find this a hindrance to getting into the character.  If it works for you, that's great.  For me it's but one reason why I dislike this PC.  "Spouting random things"- well, whatever.  I suppose that can describe anything anyone posts on the board, if you happen not to agree with it.

Wow even Loghain ran, he's the reason why Hawke left.  (N btw Hawke didn't always go, but Carver did n he was injured when he came back home, even says in the codex)  The minute Loghain turned his back on Ostagar everyone that could run ran.  Not coward's, pure in simple survivale instinct n Hawke's was to go and protect his family.  It was his job to protect his family since he was the oldest and was in charge now that dad was no longer there.  You mean to tell me your not goin to go where your loved one's are and get them to safety when you KNOW for a fact that there's a horde of darkspawn descending down on them at any time?  Hawke's instinct is to protect those he loves and get them the heck out of dodge before there is no family left.  The Warden's fought, that was their story, Hawke has his own story n he got tangled up in more then he even wanted. 
But when ur so against something, no matter what anyone says ur gonna not see if it makes sense or not so it's not worth the trouble. 

[happy_daiz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally liked the concept and premise of playing a refugee a lot actually. But the execution, I thought, left much (and I do mean much) to be desired.

The way it started immediately on the run conveyed no sympathy from me because I didn't see the life he lost. Him massacring darkspawn in the wave load did not give the impression at all that I am playing a desperate refugee on the run. And then Kirkwall happened (or rather everything that should have been there wasn't). So ultimately, I didn't feel playing a refugee, and I didn't feel playing a refugee rising to a high position.

If only they would have 1). quickly recapped Ostagar, then 2). shown the destruction of Lothering and all the ensuing chaos, it would have made all of us more sympathetic to Hawke's plight. Instead, we were thrown into an insta-battle we didn't really understand. OK, there are a couple of words from siblings/mother, but...not enough to evoke any kind of feeling.

[Realmzmaster]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally liked the concept and premise of playing a refugee a lot actually. But the execution, I thought, left much (and I do mean much) to be desired.

The way it started immediately on the run conveyed no sympathy from me because I didn't see the life he lost. Him massacring darkspawn in the wave load did not give the impression at all that I am playing a desperate refugee on the run. And then Kirkwall happened (or rather everything that should have been there wasn't). So ultimately, I didn't feel playing a refugee, and I didn't feel playing a refugee rising to a high position.

I have aready stated in a different thread that the game needed more back story at the beginning and more time with the Hawke family. It was one of the failings in the game.

Now if you were just picking up DA2 and knew nothing about DAO you may not care. But for gamers who knew the story of DAO, a little more getting to know the Hawke family would have been nice and appreciated.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well to be fair, the RPG that I think you are talking about had a mandatory boss fight before him.
That said, yes it was an epic choice to let him go and more satisfyingthan any boss fight.

Just to clarify, i was thinking of Planescape: Torment here. It didn't occur to me before your post that the Witcher 2 could also fit, maybe even better 

[Addai]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Wow even Loghain ran, he's the reason why Hawke left.  (N btw Hawke didn't always go, but Carver did n he was injured when he came back home, even says in the codex)  The minute Loghain turned his back on Ostagar everyone that could run ran.  Not coward's, pure in simple survivale instinct n Hawke's was to go and protect his family.  It was his job to protect his family since he was the oldest and was in charge now that dad was no longer there.  You mean to tell me your not goin to go where your loved one's are and get them to safety when you KNOW for a fact that there's a horde of darkspawn descending down on them at any time?  Hawke's instinct is to protect those he loves and get them the heck out of dodge before there is no family left.  The Warden's fought, that was their story, Hawke has his own story n he got tangled up in more then he even wanted. 
But when ur so against something, no matter what anyone says ur gonna not see if it makes sense or not so it's not worth the trouble. 

So did I miss the part where Hawke gathers with other like-minded people to regroup and rally a defense against this blight that threatened her homeland and family and the entire world?  Because that's what Loghain, Teagan, the Wardens, and others tried to do, each in their own ways.  Someone who had seen the ravages of darkspawn should be even more willing to say "you know, there is something here that is more important to do than just to get mine."  That's why they're awesome and she's not.

As I said upthread- if that had been the low point for Hawke, I might have gotten over it.  Alas it wasn't.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well to be fair, the RPG that I think you are talking about had a mandatory boss fight before him.
That said, yes it was an epic choice to let him go and more satisfyingthan any boss fight.

Just to clarify, i was thinking of Planescape: Torment here. It didn't occur to me before your post that the Witcher 2 could also fit, maybe even better 

Oh, then can't comment on that.

And yes, dammit, I want to talk to the antagonist, drink vodka with him and wave him goodbye if I want to.

Convincing Saren to suicide was also a good moment (but with a flawed logic because of the *censored* paragon / renegade system). Not the final boss fight technically, but still.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 août 2011 - 09:11 .

[alex90c]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well to be fair, the RPG that I think you are talking about had a mandatory boss fight before him.
That said, yes it was an epic choice to let him go and more satisfyingthan any boss fight.

Just to clarify, i was thinking of Planescape: Torment here. It didn't occur to me before your post that the Witcher 2 could also fit, maybe even better 

Oh, then can't comment on that.

And yes, dammit, I want to talk to the antagonist, drink vodka with him and wave him goodbye if I want to.

Convincing Saren to suicide was also a good moment (but with a flawed logic because of the *censored* paragon / renegade system). Not the final boss fight technically, but still.

I did quite enjoy how if you had enough paragon at Virmire, that when you meet Saren again at the Citadel he actually references your attempt at persuasion; even though ultimately Shepard was unable to fully persuade him, it's obvious he thought about it and in the end kind of saw 'the light', but of course being subject to Sovereign for so long meant that, tbh, he'd just become a cognitive husk rather than a free thinking individual.

[erynnar]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Addai so what you are saying is to fight the blight all Hawke had to do is fight with the Bannorn army...well then doesn't that make my warden a complete moron for running around collecting treaties when s/he could have done the same? I'm sorry but sometimes people just start spouting random things to justify their hate and no offense but that is what this sounds like to me.

Hawke believes Ferelden has fallen victim to Loghain's treachery.  So what does she do about it... "see ya suckers!"  Inspiring.     And that pretty much sums up her approach to dealing with things in Kirkwall, too.

I don't care if you don't find this a hindrance to getting into the character.  If it works for you, that's great.  For me it's but one reason why I dislike this PC.  "Spouting random things"- well, whatever.  I suppose that can describe anything anyone posts on the board, if you happen not to agree with it.

Wow even Loghain ran, he's the reason why Hawke left.  (N btw Hawke didn't always go, but Carver did n he was injured when he came back home, even says in the codex)  The minute Loghain turned his back on Ostagar everyone that could run ran.  Not coward's, pure in simple survivale instinct n Hawke's was to go and protect his family.  It was his job to protect his family since he was the oldest and was in charge now that dad was no longer there.  You mean to tell me your not goin to go where your loved one's are and get them to safety when you KNOW for a fact that there's a horde of darkspawn descending down on them at any time?  Hawke's instinct is to protect those he loves and get them the heck out of dodge before there is no family left.  The Warden's fought, that was their story, Hawke has his own story n he got tangled up in more then he even wanted. 
But when ur so against something, no matter what anyone says ur gonna not see if it makes sense or not so it's not worth the trouble. 

Loghain ran all the way to the throne to make himself regent. He didn't believe in the threat. He quit the field to let Cailan die so he could protedt Ferelden from the Orlesians, the only group Loghain thought was a real threat, because he was obsessive that way. Only at the end does he realize how stupid that was. But he hardly ran from all of Ferelden. He just chose the wrong thing as the true threat to fight.

[Thor Rand Al]

Addai67 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Wow even Loghain ran, he's the reason why Hawke left.  (N btw Hawke didn't always go, but Carver did n he was injured when he came back home, even says in the codex)  The minute Loghain turned his back on Ostagar everyone that could run ran.  Not coward's, pure in simple survivale instinct n Hawke's was to go and protect his family.  It was his job to protect his family since he was the oldest and was in charge now that dad was no longer there.  You mean to tell me your not goin to go where your loved one's are and get them to safety when you KNOW for a fact that there's a horde of darkspawn descending down on them at any time?  Hawke's instinct is to protect those he loves and get them the heck out of dodge before there is no family left.  The Warden's fought, that was their story, Hawke has his own story n he got tangled up in more then he even wanted. 
But when ur so against something, no matter what anyone says ur gonna not see if it makes sense or not so it's not worth the trouble. 

So did I miss the part where Hawke gathers with other like-minded people to regroup and rally a defense against this blight that threatened her homeland and family and the entire world?  Because that's what Loghain, Teagan, the Wardens, and others tried to do, each in their own ways.  Someone who had seen the ravages of darkspawn should be even more willing to say "you know, there is something here that is more important to do than just to get mine."  That's why they're awesome and she's not.

As I said upthread- if that had been the low point for Hawke, I might have gotten over it.  Alas it wasn't.

Excuse me, it was NOT Hawke's job to stay n help with the blight.  Bioware gave Hawke a different story.  That story was for our Wardens, Hawke has his own story.  If Bioware had wanted Hawke to stay and be in the battle then they would have made the story around that but the Blight story took place with OUR WARDENS in ORIGINS.  Hawke's story was to do exactly what the devs wrote him to do, get to his family to safety. Sheesh, sorry Hawke got a different story and didn't stay in Ostagar and die.

[Addai]

Thor Rand Al wrote...
Excuse me, it was NOT Hawke's job to stay n help with the blight.  Bioware gave Hawke a different story.  That story was for our Wardens, Hawke has his own story. 

I'm not disputing that Hawke's story is that way because that's how Bioware made her.  I'm saying it's lame and therefore I don't like her.

And I guess I've about explained that enough and am tired of going on about it.

[phaonica]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Excuse me, it was NOT Hawke's job to stay n help with the blight.  Bioware gave Hawke a different story.  That story was for our Wardens, Hawke has his own story.  If Bioware had wanted Hawke to stay and be in the battle then they would have made the story around that but the Blight story took place with OUR WARDENS in ORIGINS.  Hawke's story was to do exactly what the devs wrote him to do, get to his family to safety. Sheesh, sorry Hawke got a different story and didn't stay in Ostagar and die.

Hawke could have had the drive to fight, yet have been influenced by his family or other reasons to flee anyway. The difference is the absense of drive to want to fight back. You can want to fight back, even if you don't have the resources.

Ultimately, like Addai, it was a small thing I can forgive, except that it's a trend that continues throughout the game. Whether by personality or by game mechanics, Hawke cannot take initiative, and that's part of why I don't like the character as much as I had hoped I would.

Modifié par phaonica, 04 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[Realmzmaster]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well to be fair, the RPG that I think you are talking about had a mandatory boss fight before him.
That said, yes it was an epic choice to let him go and more satisfyingthan any boss fight.

Just to clarify, i was thinking of Planescape: Torment here. It didn't occur to me before your post that the Witcher 2 could also fit, maybe even better 

Very nice game. I was thinking either PST or TW2. PST had an interesting ending, but that also goes along with the theme of the entire game. PST only had a handful of battles you had to fight. You talk your way out with the right dialogue or stealth. Also you could not die since you are the Immortal Nameless One.You simply respawn somewhere else. This makes PST rather unique among CRPGs.  It was a nice critically acclaimed game that did not sell well and made Black Isle a little profit, but no where near Baldur's Gate numbers. It is simply not a game that appealled to many crpg gamers.
Which is probably why you have not seen another one like it.

[Morroian]

Addai67 wrote...

So did I miss the part where Hawke gathers with other like-minded people to regroup and rally a defense against this blight that threatened her homeland and family and the entire world?  Because that's what Loghain, Teagan, the Wardens, and others tried to do, each in their own ways.  Someone who had seen the ravages of darkspawn should be even more willing to say "you know, there is something here that is more important to do than just to get mine."  That's why they're awesome and she's not.

Loghain hardly did anything of the sort except right at the end when the warden had his allies. The Warden organisation is dedicated to fighting the darkspawn, and are uniquely qualified to do so, so of course they did. Hawke was someone who had moved around most of their life, family was the only constant, I don't think its lame to try and hold on to that and protect it when all hope would have seemed lost, especially for mage Hawke who wasn't even at Ostagar and not a soldier. Besides as far as  battling the darkspawn the logical assumption would be that the Warden's would rally. 

[FieryDove]

alex90c wrote...

WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES OF PARATROOPERS

what the hell were bioware thinking doing that? ffs.

they may not realise it, but gamers don't need to have combat shoved in their face (literally) every 30 seconds while travelling around places just to be able to keep their interest in the game.

I said the same thing about so many mandatory mini-games (including planet scanning) about ME2. I think both waves and mini-games have nothing to do with gameplay or fun. I think both are time padding...that is all.

Waves do have one positive. My sarcastic male hawke said something along the lines "Where are they all coming from? I didn't order more!" That made me laugh. But that was very early in the game. The laughter died quickly after just a few quests. Sigh

[Gallimatia]

Morroian wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So did I miss the part where Hawke gathers with other like-minded people to regroup and rally a defense against this blight that threatened her homeland and family and the entire world?  Because that's what Loghain, Teagan, the Wardens, and others tried to do, each in their own ways.  Someone who had seen the ravages of darkspawn should be even more willing to say "you know, there is something here that is more important to do than just to get mine."  That's why they're awesome and she's not.

Loghain hardly did anything of the sort except right at the end when the warden had his allies.

Pretty much all we see Loghain do is work towards the goal of unifying Ferelden so they can fight the darkspawn. He also sends out diplomats to Orzammar to gather support. I think it's safe to say if not for the Warden getting in his way he would have gathered Ferelden, gotten Bhelen's support and that of the Templars of course and defeated the Archdemon.

Then it would have been resurrected and he would have had to ask the Orleasian Wardens for advice. That's when things would have gotten problematic.

[TEWR]

FieryDove wrote...

alex90c wrote...

WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES AND WAVES OF PARATROOPERS

what the hell were bioware thinking doing that? ffs.

they may not realise it, but gamers don't need to have combat shoved in their face (literally) every 30 seconds while travelling around places just to be able to keep their interest in the game.

I said the same thing about so many mandatory mini-games (including planet scanning) about ME2. I think both waves and mini-games have nothing to do with gameplay or fun. I think both are time padding...that is all.

Waves do have one positive. My sarcastic male hawke said something along the lines "Where are they all coming from? I didn't order more!" That made me laugh. But that was very early in the game. The laughter died quickly after just a few quests. Sigh

Waves should only be used when they make sense. Like in the beginning. Waves of Chalkspawn? Pfft, bring 'em on! I'll gladly kill those guys in a Blight!

Qunari, Mages, and Templars? Sure, there were a lot of them in Kirkwall.

Generic thugs roaming the streets at night? No.

[Ryzaki]

Yes the darkspawn having waves made perfect sense. They were horde.

Waves of demons got annoying really fast though.

[TheRealJayDee]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Im Telling you - if Bioware  released  a remake of  BG and BG 2 with all the expansions  with some updated graphics and extras.   Alot of this  hate would calm down

Or maybe if they realeased a game called Dragon Age that felt like Dragon Age...? Okay, sorry, I'm quiet now...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You are walking around Lowtown or the Docks at night and you do not expect to get attacked by street gangs, or muggers? If dispatching some of these street gang members you do not expect the gang to want revenge.?

I was disappointed when the street gangs did not try to attack your home or Gamlen's hovel for revenge.
The warden killed as many darkspawn and humans as Hawke. Ostagar alone had you killing many darkspawn. As I said all Bioware PC are killing machines. The body count in both games is funny.

If one thing should have changed in Kirkwall over the years it should have been that said gangs RECOGNIZE Hawke and his companions (they look the same, always, so it should be possible) and decide NOT TO DIE, as thousands of their brothers before them...

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the darkspawn having waves made perfect sense. They were horde.

Waves of demons got annoying really fast though.

Demons I don't mind (save for all those shades and the Pride Demon at the end). It's Abominations that really bugged me.

[Ryzaki]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the darkspawn having waves made perfect sense. They were horde.

Waves of demons got annoying really fast though.

Demons I don't mind (save for all those shades and the Pride Demon at the end). It's Abominations that really bugged me.

Especially them coming out of the ground. 

Wat. 

[TheRealJayDee]

As to Hawke fleeing or staying: I think it's perfectly reasonable for the familiy to try to get somewhere safe. Problem is, Kirkwall is not that place, and at least the apostate siblings say so from the start.
That they knowingly agree to go to probably the most dangerous place for apostates in this part of Thedas baffles me.
That they don't go somewhere else after realizing they don't even have a home left to return to in Kirkwall is beyond me.
That they don't decide to try to bring at least the apostate(s) back to Ferelden after the Blight is defeated and they have the means I find more than questionable.
That my Hawke was forced to stay in Kirkwall after Act 2 without any motivation left almost ruined the game for me even before finishing Act 3.

[Morroian]

Gallimatia wrote...

Pretty much all we see Loghain do is work towards the goal of unifying Ferelden so they can fight the darkspawn. 

No he does it to secure Ferelden against Orlais. 

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

So did I miss the part where Hawke gathers with other like-minded people to regroup and rally a defense against this blight that threatened her homeland and family and the entire world?  Because that's what Loghain, Teagan, the Wardens, and others tried to do, each in their own ways.  Someone who had seen the ravages of darkspawn should be even more willing to say "you know, there is something here that is more important to do than just to get mine."  That's why they're awesome and she's not.

Loghain hardly did anything of the sort except right at the end when the warden had his allies. The Warden organisation is dedicated to fighting the darkspawn, and are uniquely qualified to do so, so of course they did. Hawke was someone who had moved around most of their life, family was the only constant, I don't think its lame to try and hold on to that and protect it when all hope would have seemed lost, especially for mage Hawke who wasn't even at Ostagar and not a soldier. Besides as far as  battling the darkspawn the logical assumption would be that the Warden's would rally. 

Yeah it wasn't the fleeing the Blight thing about Hawke that got me. It was the moved around all her life but sticks to Kirkwall when she has no real reason to. That and the has no iniciative thing. But the reasons to stay in Kirkwall just weren't compelling enough for me.

[Gallimatia]

Morroian wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Pretty much all we see Loghain do is work towards the goal of unifying Ferelden so they can [among other things] fight the darkspawn. 

No he does it to secure Ferelden against Orlais. 

As far as Loghain knows the means required to keep Orlais away and killing off darkspawn are one and the same. He wants to do both. When he is preparing for one he is also preparing for the other.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 05 août 2011 - 03:32 .