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[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes the darkspawn having waves made perfect sense. They were horde.

Waves of demons got annoying really fast though.

Demons I don't mind (save for all those shades and the Pride Demon at the end). It's Abominations that really bugged me.

Especially them coming out of the ground. 

Wat. 

While incredibly jarring, to be fair I have no clue how Bioware could've had Abominations as enemies and also make it believable. Running towards the area wouldn't make much sense (what do they have a tracking beacon on Hawke?).

I mean, it makes sense when you slay a mage and an Abomination appears in their place. That's fine. Or when you see them transform.

But summoning out of the ground? Cue the obligatory Sten "No" in 3.... 2... 1...

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[thats1evildude]

Eh. Abominations rising out of the ground didn't bother me.

I think it's extremely unfair to blame Hawke for not staying to battle the darkspawn in Ferelden. Speaking from a Warrior Hawke's perspective, his family has already done their fair share, and Ferelden is totally screwed.

Both Hawke and Carver joined the army to fight the darkspawn at Ostagar. But that went completely ******-up. Ferelden's military has been largely decimated, the Grey Wardens are all dead and a traitor now holds the throne.

Hawke and Carver barely escaped Ostagar, and the family's flight from Lothering ends with the death of his brother.

Hawke has no ancient treaties that allow him to gather allies, and Flemeth doesn't send him on his way with any hot mage daughter in tow. Sure, he could sign up with some minor bann's forces,  but to do what? To fight for a lost cause? To participate in Ferelden's pointless civil war?

He's lost his home and one of his siblings to the Blight. I don't begrudge him for wanting to protect what's left of his family.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[Terraforming]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

As to Hawke fleeing or staying: I think it's perfectly reasonable for the familiy to try to get somewhere safe. Problem is, Kirkwall is not that place, and at least the apostate siblings say so from the start.
That they knowingly agree to go to probably the most dangerous place for apostates in this part of Thedas baffles me.
That they don't go somewhere else after realizing they don't even have a home left to return to in Kirkwall is beyond me.
That they don't decide to try to bring at least the apostate(s) back to Ferelden after the Blight is defeated and they have the means I find more than questionable.
That my Hawke was forced to stay in Kirkwall after Act 2 without any motivation left almost ruined the game for me even before finishing Act 3.

Honestly, I know that they had to get to Kirkwall as an impetus for the story, but I definitely agree with you.
If anything, Leandra suggesting going to Kirkwall really makes me dislike the character. It makes it even worse that when the family arrives at the gallows, they immediately hear from one of the guards that a templar is calling the shots in the city and that mages are being locked up. What a wonderful place to drag your apostate child to. And it makes it even more absurd that they would even consider staying there after hearing this stuff. Explaining them staying on it being Leandra's home some twenty years ago is also flimsy, at best.

[Realmzmaster]

Gallimatia wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Gallimatia wrote...

Pretty much all we see Loghain do is work towards the goal of unifying Ferelden so they can [among other things] fight the darkspawn. 

No he does it to secure Ferelden against Orlais. 

As far as Loghain knows the means required to keep Orlais away and killing off darkspawn are one and the same. He wants to do both. When he is preparing for one he is also preparing for the other.

If you get Loghain as one of the party, he will tell you about his plan. He was going to spilt is army into two forces. One guarding the border with Orlais and other defending against the darkspawn. What he fail to realize or did not believe is that he could not defeat the ArchDemon without a warden. But he believe that Orlais was more of a threat and would take advantage of the darkspawn situation. When your warden calls him on the plan he remarks that he did not say it was a good one.

[thats1evildude]

Terraforming wrote...

If anything, Leandra suggesting going to Kirkwall really makes me dislike the character.

But she doesn't really have all the facts when she makes the suggestion, because Leandra doesn't know that Gamlen has lost the estate and spent the family fortune.

Kirkwall isn't a great option, but neither is heading to Denerim to huddle like beggars in some refugee camp while you wait for the darkspawn to arrive in force.

Terraforming wrote...

It makes it even worse that when the family arrives at the gallows, they immediately hear from one of the guards that a templar is calling the shots in the city and that mages are being locked up. What a wonderful place to drag your apostate child to. And it makes it even more absurd that they would even consider staying there after hearing this stuff.

There really isn't anywhere else to go, however. Hawke can even suggest going elsewhere in the Free Marches, but the idea is dismissed as hopeless. None of the other cities are accepting any more refugees, and they don't have any contacts in the Free Marches except Gamlen.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[BigBad]

Why do people suddenly expect that Hawke should have done something about the Blight? I don't get this. He had absolutely zero reason to think it was possible after Ostagar.

Look at the facts:

No other Blight has lasted for less than several years, if not decades. No other Blight was defeated or meaningfully fought without an alliance of multiple powerful nations and heavy Grey Warden assistance.

Ferelden, much as we love it, was a weak nation. Divided by old loyalties and suspicions with a weak king. Isolated both geographically and culturally from its closest neighbors, with whom it shares mutual hostility. After Ostagar, it had no legitimate leadership to initiate a clean transfer of power (this naturally resulted in a civil war) and the nation's best general was known to the Hawke's as a traitor. The bulk of Ferelden's army had just been soundly defeated. All the Grey Wardens likewise (Hawke doesn't find out otherwise until he is commited to the Kirkwall journey with his family).

Without knowing that one of the surviving Grey Wardens is a Player Character and thus a miraculous wonder-worker, there's virtually no reason to think that staying would result in anything other than a grisly death. No meaningful opposition to the Blight can be mustered in Ferelden (discounting PC meddling), so it's better to cut and run and wait for the Wardens of other nations to do what they do.

[Travie]

Yeah... also there was his family to consider. He couldn't just let them stay in danger.

[phaonica]

BigBad wrote...
Why do people suddenly expect that Hawke should have done something
about the Blight? I don't get this. He had absolutely zero reason to
think it was possible after Ostagar....so it's better to cut and run and wait for the Wardens of other nations to do what they do.

To me, that line of thinking suggests that nobody in all of Ferelden should have bothered to raise arms against the darkspawn after Ostagar, because that's a Wardens' job.

I'm not arguing that Hawke *should* have done something about the Blight, I'm just saying that, imo, I would have liked him a little more if he had *wanted* to do something about the Blight.

But only a little more. 

Most of the reasons I don't like Hawke can probably be blamed on game mechanics.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[thats1evildude]

phaonica wrote...

To me, that line of thinking suggests that nobody in all of Ferelden should have bothered to raise arms against the darkspawn after Ostagar, because that's a Wardens' job.

That's not what BigBad is suggesting, methinks. It's more that, from Hawke's perspective, the situation would have seemed hopeless.

phaonica wrote...

I'm not arguing that Hawke *should* have done something about the Blight, I'm just saying that, imo, I would have liked him a little more if he had *wanted* to do something about the Blight.

But he did try. It just amounted to diddly-squat.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 août 2011 - 08:55 .

[Nashiktal]

thats1evildude wrote...

phaonica wrote...

To me, that line of thinking suggests that nobody in all of Ferelden should have bothered to raise arms against the darkspawn after Ostagar, because that's a Wardens' job.

That's not what BigBad is suggesting, methinks. It's more that, from Hawke's perspective, the situation would have seemed hopeless.

phaonica wrote...

I'm not arguing that Hawke *should* have done something about the Blight, I'm just saying that, imo, I would have liked him a little more if he had *wanted* to do something about the Blight.

But he did try. It just amounted to diddly-squat.

This. His king was dead and replaced by a traitor, the only "permenant" home he has had in some time is destroyed and ruined, His family is in immediate danger of the coming horde, Hawke thought all the wardens were dead, and he even loses his sibling.

Hawke has no reason to stay. Anything he was loyal to was gone, replaced by traitors and the rampaging doom of the horde, which HE FOUGHT FIRST HAND. He saw the almost endless numbers of the darkspawn, and he fought till the battle was lost. He saw his king smashed by an ogre, his fellow men in arms slaughtered like pigs.

That would traumatize most people, like the chasind at the chantry in DAO. Instead Hawke steeled himself, thought of his family, and got them to safety. I like Hawke. He needed more exposition, more backstory, but for the most part he is great. 

[bobthecrusher]

my number one issue at this moment: all of the characters still look exactly the same, and the qunari have changed from reasonable Sten to I WILL KILL EVERYTHING CAUSE I'M EVIL AND HAS HORN Arashaak

[Nashiktal]

Really? The qunari made the most sense in their actions if you follow what their qun. From everything we know about the qunari, the arishok was actually quite patient.

[Sutekh]

bobthecrusher wrote...

my number one issue at this moment: all of the characters still look exactly the same, and the qunari have changed from reasonable Sten to I WILL KILL EVERYTHING CAUSE I'M EVIL AND HAS HORN Arashaak

Reasonable Sten who killed a whole family because he panicked over losing his sword? Reasonable Sten who provoked you in duel if you don't follow his "let's go straight after the Archdemon" line of strategy? Reasonable Sten who cannot fathom that you fight if you're a woman?

That reasonable Sten?

The Arishok waited three years and some major provocations before retaliating. Seems quite patient to me, from a "reasonable" Qunari point of view

[alex90c]

Sutekh wrote...

bobthecrusher wrote...

my number one issue at this moment: all of the characters still look exactly the same, and the qunari have changed from reasonable Sten to I WILL KILL EVERYTHING CAUSE I'M EVIL AND HAS HORN Arashaak

Reasonable Sten who killed a whole family because he panicked over losing his sword? Reasonable Sten who provoked you in duel if you don't follow his "let's go straight after the Archdemon" line of strategy? Reasonable Sten who cannot fathom that you fight if you're a woman?

That reasonable Sten?

The Arishok waited three years and some major provocations before retaliating. Seems quite patient to me, from a "reasonable" Qunari point of view

Weeeeelllll.....



...at least it's more reasonable than Hawke trying to escape the darkspawn by cleaving his way through like 2000 of them

Modifié par alex90c, 05 août 2011 - 06:21 .

[Sutekh]

alex90c wrote...

...at least it's more reasonable than Hawke trying to escape the darkspawn by cleaving his way through like 2000 of them

Except he didn't?

"There's no end to them"

Hawke and sibling get ready to give up and die.

Cue dragonmeth.

When you're in a crappy situation, you're in a crappy situation. Wrong place, wrong time etc... He did what he could to get out of it, and was lucky enough.

(Besides, guys, which is it? He was a coward for fleeing or a moron for fighting? And is trying to win a war with a bunch of treaties and some figurative brass balls for only strategy reasonable, I wonder... Being a hero isn't about being "reasonable", quite the contrary as a matter of fact, but I digress )

[Sylvianus]

There will be no Hawke for DA3 as a PC, the discussion is over !!!!

[Alright-Television]

Can I just copypaste my Hawke-hate from my review real quick? Thanks. Awesome. YEEEEE

Hawke is not a good protagonist. He's not even a protagonist really. He doesn't do anything. He's a boring observer, and as such we already have a narrator; Varric! Hawke certainly doesn't "rise to power by any means necessary". He doesn't "rise to power" at all actually! Well, I suppose he received the Crowning Glory achievement after the credits if he sided with the templars (that choice that didn't matter, remember). The real main character of Dragon Age 2 is Anders! He's the character that works towards a goal and changes Thedas forever. He's the guy that rises to power by any means necessary and that includes dying. Hawke is just along for the ride and on clean-up duty.

Maybe there was something in that talk with Varric where he mentions how there's a recipe to the perfect hero. The best thing Dragon Age 3 could do is to retcon Hawke into oblivion. Yeah, turns out that Anders was the Fereldan refugee that hired onto the expedition. It would fit. It won't happen but even a television can dream, right? Why am I helping BioWare get out of this mess they don't want to get out of? I need a drink. I mean, Varric, the reliable unreliable narrator! Bio, you could have done so much more but instead you settled for a stupid Scarface reference and boobs. Not that I didn't enjoy either but come on. There's so much to mess around with the story and Varric is constantly brought up as talking crap all the time. Heart of gold, sure, but talking crap still.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I found little depth, dimension, or interest in Hawke, even at the start. There's nothing to develop them or even get a feel for them, I've found. The silent Warden was far more engaging and interesting to me as a PC, regardless of origin, because even in his/her silence, the Warden has more impact and relevance to the world or story than Hawke does. I can't even RP Hawke as being remotely intelligent, as so far, I've seen nor experienced any opportunities where this can be demonstrated or even imagined.

Hawke just runs around killing sh*t for people. And being an interesting character I'd want to play requires more than being able to waste everything in sight.

[alex90c]

Sutekh wrote...

alex90c wrote...

...at least it's more reasonable than Hawke trying to escape the darkspawn by cleaving his way through like 2000 of them

Except he didn't?

"There's no end to them"

Hawke and sibling get ready to give up and die.

Cue dragonmeth.

When you're in a crappy situation, you're in a crappy situation. Wrong place, wrong time etc... He did what he could to get out of it, and was lucky enough.

(Besides, guys, which is it? He was a coward for fleeing or a moron for fighting? And is trying to win a war with a bunch of treaties and some figurative brass balls for only strategy reasonable, I wonder... Being a hero isn't about being "reasonable", quite the contrary as a matter of fact, but I digress )

That only happened because THE PLOT DICTATES. Keep the control with the player and they probably could have sat there grinding darkspawn for the rest of eternity since they just ... weren't a threat. I mean the Ogre battle was much easier in 1.03, and the only reason the early game is even challenging is because you're at a really low level. Throw the horde at the player which enables them to level up which enables them to unleash AOE after AOE after AOE against the pathetic clownspawn and they'll come out on top.

I don't really discuss the "was Hawke a ***** for running away" topic, but I'd find him a ****** regardless of what he did so I don't really care about that.

Modifié par alex90c, 05 août 2011 - 07:50 .

[FieryDove]

Sylvianus wrote...

There will be no Hawke for DA3 as a PC, the discussion is over !!!!

You are correct. Hawke will be back for DA4.

[Sylvianus]

FieryDove wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

There will be no Hawke for DA3 as a PC, the discussion is over !!!!

You are correct. Hawke will be back for DA4.

Holy crap ! DO NOT WANT !

Let's see first what will be DA3, please.

[Addai]

Alright-Television wrote...
The best thing Dragon Age 3 could do is to retcon Hawke into oblivion.

Or at least to make scarce mention.  My plan is to mentally gather the collected lore bits and otherwise try to forget DA2 existed.  For the sake of the people who did like it, I hope they get a good expansion, and that it then goes down a deep, dark memory hole taking Hawke with it.

[Romantiq]

Because he is almost nothing more than an opportunist. His beard fails compared to Duncan's too.

[Alright-Television]

I can't say I think Hawke comes across as an opportunist either. Mercenary, definitely, but never seems to want things. I guess, to Hawke the quest itself is reward.

Hawke is like a broken etch-a-sketch machine.

[Sutekh]

alex90c wrote...

That only happened because THE PLOT DICTATES. Keep the control with the player and they probably could have sat there grinding darkspawn for the rest of eternity since they just ... weren't a threat. I mean the Ogre battle was much easier in 1.03, and the only reason the early game is even challenging is because you're at a really low level. Throw the horde at the player which enables them to level up which enables them to unleash AOE after AOE after AOE against the pathetic clownspawn and they'll come out on top.

Oh, so it wasn't just me. Combat is much easier since patch 1.03 (And here I was so proud of my proficiency after not playing for several weeks )

This said, a lot of things happen because THE PLOT DICTATES. Everywhere. Games, tv shows, movies, books... everywhere, I tell you. We're surrounded by nasty, mean dictating plots. The very way Hawke is as a whole is plot dictated, so I don't see how it's a point.

And I've nothing against a plot that dictates I get out of hellish boring darkspawn grinding anyway. There's only so much I can take.

I don't really discuss the "was Hawke a ***** for running away" topic, but I'd find him a ****** regardless of what he did so I don't really care about that.

Goodness gracious! Could it be that you, Alex90c, are biased?  *faints*

(What's the point in discussing Hawke, though, since you'll hate him whatever he does / is / becomes? "Why all the Hawke hate?" "Because I hate him")

Romantiq wrote...

His beard fails compared to Duncan's too.

None of my Hawkes had beard, but I can see how it is a valid argument (and I'm not even joking. Default Hawke is horrible)