539 réponses à ce sujet

[axl99]

Go play Mass Effect. Oh wait. You have.

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Kratos is intertwined and related to the plot of God of War. That doesn't make him incapable of being evaluated outside of the context of the game, or imagining how he might act in new scenarios outside of the established games. The inability to separate the two is an individual failing, not a universal one.

Kratos is a set protagonist, Hawke is not.
And yes, Kratos is as interesting as the story he is in, seeing how he is established by it.

Imagining what Kratos would do is a meaningless excercise and not a speculation-free discussion of his character, which can only be done in the context of the story he is in.

I disagree. By the logic you present (that characters cannot exist outside of the context of the content they are presented in), then assertions by the creators and such are not the truth despite the author saying so, simply because they did not occur within the context of the story told (e.g. JK Rowling stating that Dumbledore is gay). I reject your supposition, because you're saying that these aspects of the character that may exist by word of god, simply don't count.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Edit: It's a perfectly valid stance to say that the context of the content is the lens to evaluate a character. However, it is not the only one, and supposing that it is the only one is as shortsighted as the people who only maintain that the original trilogy of Star Wars is the only canon, or the total six movies, or the expanded universe, or whatever. It's an individual decision made on a per-person basis, and by trying to impose your opinion as fact, you do the other people who wish to discuss things legitimately a disservice.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
 By the logic you present (that characters cannot exist outside of the context of the content they are presented in), then assertions by the creators and such are not the truth despite the author saying so, simply because they did not occur within the context of the story told (e.g. JK Rowling stating that Dumbledore is gay). I reject your supposition, because you're saying that these aspects of the character that may exist by word of god, simply don't count.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's different, because it's the author saying so. The creator of said character. Completely different scenario.

But someone saying "in my scenario that I created in my head, Kratos would do this and this, and that's why he is awesome" is completely irrelevent. It's nice speculation, but that's not discussing the merits of the character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:06 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Edit: It's a perfectly valid stance to say that the context of the content is the only lens to evaluate a character. However, it is not the only one, and supposing that it is the only one is as shortsighted as the people who only maintain that the original trilogy of Star Wars is the only canon, or the total six movies, or the expanded universe, or whatever. It's an individual decision made on a per-person basis, and by trying to impose your opinion as fact, you do the other people who wish to discuss things legitimately a disservice.

First, what is bolded is contradictory.

Star Wars has an established canon that is not up for discussion and debate. They can ignore the prequels all they want, it's still canon until Lucas says otherwise.
I'd love to wipe DA2 from canon, but I can't.

Allowing people to bring ff, or their personal canon into this, is no longer making this a discussion.
I can present what I did with Arcturus Cousland as evidence that the Warden is awesome, but that would be silly.
I can use it as evidence that I enjoyed origins and the Warden, nothing more.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[hoorayforicecream]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Edit: It's a perfectly valid stance to say that the context of the content is the only lens to evaluate a character. However, it is not the only one, and supposing that it is the only one is as shortsighted as the people who only maintain that the original trilogy of Star Wars is the only canon, or the total six movies, or the expanded universe, or whatever. It's an individual decision made on a per-person basis, and by trying to impose your opinion as fact, you do the other people who wish to discuss things legitimately a disservice.

First, what is bolded is contradictory.

Sorry. Erase "only" from "only lens" to remove the contradiction. I'll edit my original statement.

Star Wars has an established canon that is not up for discussion and debate. They can ignore the prequels all they want, it's still canon until Lucas says otherwise.

There are differing levels of accepted canon in the Star Wars universe, and it varies by the fan what is and isn't accepted.

Allowing people to bring ff, or their personal canon into this, is no longer making this a discussion.
I can present what I did with Arcturus Cousland as evidence that the Warden is awesome, but that would be silly.
I can use it as evidence that I enjoyed origins and the Warden, nothing more.

But that's not what you were saying. You said that since the overall story wasn't up to snuff (for you), the character can't be interesting either. And I reject this as well, because there are plenty of examples of a bad story that can still have good characters in them. My favorite example is probably Kämpfer. It has an awful overall story, but one character in it is awesome. The Pirates of the Caribbean (Curse of the Black Pearl) story wasn't particularly good either, but Captain Jack Sparrow was a terrific character. Heck, even you said you enjoyed Varric and Aveline. So why can't you accept that people could like Hawke like you liked Varric and Aveline?

The story provides context to show aspects of a character that we get to know. We can discuss those aspects of the character that we like, even if the overall story is not good, because the story is not the entirety of the character, just the context for discussion points.

The simple fact that they provided you the avenue in the game to make Arcturus Cousland awesome means that there's interesting character potential there that you felt was realized. Why can't you accept that DA2 provides others similar avenues to make Hawke awesome and thus an interesting character to other people?

[TEWR]

Curse of the Black Pearl wasn't interesting? Blasphemy!

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

because there are plenty of examples of a bad story that can still have good characters in them. My favorite example is probably Kämpfer. It has an awful overall story, but one character in it is awesome. The Pirates of the Caribbean (Curse of the Black Pearl) story wasn't particularly good either, but Captain Jack Sparrow was a terrific character. Heck, even you said you enjoyed Varric and Aveline. So why can't you accept that people could like Hawke like you liked Varric and Aveline?

Not KoP but PC vs NPC is not really a good comparison. Although some would say comparing movies to DA2 was a good call.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Curse of the Black Pearl wasn't interesting? Blasphemy!

Agreed.

Modifié par FieryDove, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
There are differing levels of accepted canon in the Star Wars universe, and it varies by the fan what is and isn't accepted.

I know, and all movies and everything done by Lucas is g-canon and not up for debate. And everything that contradicts higher levels of canon is non-canon. Nor can anyone say that expanded universe has preeminence over movies.
All of that is not up for debate.

Obscure novels, maybe, though generally the n-canon ones are established as such.

But that's not what you were saying. You said that since the overall story wasn't up to snuff (for you), the character can't be interesting either. And I reject this as well, because there are plenty of examples of a bad story that can still have good characters in them.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not look at protagonists in isolation.

If
a PC is projected on what I see as a poorly written story, in a badly
structured plot, in a lifeless and unresponsive setting, with a not so
active role, then it's going to be very hard for me to like the PC.

I never said people can't like a character in a bad story. I said it's hard for me and I was responding to the claim that saying so is off-topic. And notice how I didn't say it's impossible for me

Furthermore, you keep comparing set characters to Hawke, who is not. Different scenario.

EDIT: I realize I wasn't as specific in my other comments. Apologies.

The simple fact that they provided you the avenue in the game to make Arcturus Cousland awesome means that there's interesting character potential there that you felt was realized. Why can't you accept that DA2 provides others similar avenues to make Hawke awesome and thus an interesting character to other people?

Who said I did not accept it?

But just like I can't present my Cousland as an argument that the Warden is awesome, or that the plot is awesome, neither can anyone present to me their ff as evidence that Hawke is awesome.

What they can do is say that they loved the game so much that they wrote an ff or gave more thought to their Hawkes. That's great, good for them, but I can't discuss it (what can I possibly discuss about this? Personal canon cannot be discussed). So it has no place in a discussion that is asking "haters" to explain themselves.

EDIT: and now I have to go. Cheers!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:45 .

[axl99]

Unfortunately for this topic, personal canon is all people have to go on.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Curse of the Black Pearl wasn't interesting? Blasphemy!

There's a pretty big difference between "interesting" and "good". A trainwreck, for example, is interesting. Movies by Michael Bay tend to be interesting.

But just like I can't present my Cousland as an argument that the Warden is awesome, or that the plot is awesome, neither can anyone present to me their ff as evidence that Hawke is awesome. 

Once again, I disagree. Hawke is awesome to them, just like Isabela is awesome to me, and your Warden is awesome to you. Evidence is evidence and opinion is opinion. As long as the opinion is defensible via evidence, it's a perfectly valid one, and that's really what this thread is about: the opinion that Hawke as a character isn't bad, even though the story might be (also more opinion).

Perhaps it should have been worded that Hawke isn't necessarily bad, but it's still a valid assertion.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:22 .

[Morroian]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

It's mostly hate by association. A lot of people hate DA2 and since Hawke is the face of DA2, they hate him/her.

Not me mind you, but that's pretty much the case for all the Hawke haters.

The story was supposed to be about Hawke, and his supposed rise to power.

No thats just you being sucked in by the marketing.

Reaverwind wrote...

What we got was Hawke stumbling around playing errand boy, 

What we got was an examination of a relatively normal person in terms of motivations, albeit personally powerful, being swept up in events beyond his/her control and how he/she responds.

[Aaleel]

I found Hawke uninteresting as the game presented him/her.

What was Hawke's life like before the darkspawn attacked. I don't know, I have to make it up in my head.

How did Hawke make his/her name during the first year, why did we stay living in poverty when the Blight ended when we could have gone back and restarted our lives back home. Don't know either answer, I have to make it up in my head.

What happened during the first 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the second 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the time between the end and when Varric talks with Cassandra for the last time. I don't know I have to make it up in my head.

The game spans a 10 year time span, I played ONE year, one friggan year out of TEN. I don't play games to simultaneously write fan-fiction for 90% of the story.

Modifié par Aaleel, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

But just like I can't present my Cousland as an argument that the Warden is awesome, or that the plot is awesome, neither can anyone present to me their ff as evidence that Hawke is awesome. 

Once again, I disagree. Hawke is awesome to them, just like Isabela is awesome to me, and your Warden is awesome to you. Evidence is evidence and opinion is opinion. As long as the opinion is defensible via evidence, it's a perfectly valid one, and that's really what this thread is about: the opinion that Hawke as a character isn't bad, even though the story might be (also more opinion).

Perhaps it should have been worded that Hawke isn't necessarily bad, but it's still a valid assertion.

And once again, Isabela is a set character and the only valid evidence for a discussion of her being a good character should be from the game itself and not from your head.

Something that is not present in the game is not evidence for this subject, in my eyes. It shows that they like the game and it stimulates their imagination, nothing more.

And again, I am not saying people shouldn't think Hawke is awesome. They think whatever they want. I never asserted that Hawke is bad as a fact. 
I am saying why I find him bad and I disagree with the assertion that my reasons are off-topic. That's all I am saying. In addition to me rejecting everything outside the game as evidence in a debate, because I don't see how I'd debate it (nor am I interested in talking about them be frank). 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:54 .

[Blessed Silence]

Hadea wrote...

Some people like Hawke, some people don't. And then there are some people on both sides that make me feel like I'm bearing witness to a drunken brawl

Haha good one!

I don't like Hawke per se, though I don't like some of the ... acting on lines.  Some doesn't seem to have enough emotion behind them.

Granted I would have loved to make a main character like Origins did, but I'm happy with Hawke for now.

[Skydiver8888]

I think people have issues with Hawke because they have issues with the story of DA2 as a standalone game. Why? Because the story of DA2 taken in a vacuum is a completely different genre than the vast majority of fantasy RPGs, books, and movies that are out there.

DAO, Lord of the Rings, anything by Terry Brooks, etc etc etc Are all the "epic" genre. You know, the MC is a the hero set on a quest to save the world by either killing the big bad thing or doing something glaringly heroic.

DA2...is not that. DA2 is, I think, more closely related to the Slice of Life genre that some movies and anime follow. Hawke is just a guy/girl trying to get by in the world (who happens to have some unique talents), has some crap things happen, has some great things happen, but much like you or I, really doesn't have all that much control of the greater world around him.  And sin of all sins...he/she actually FAILS. 

And that's why people don't like Hawke. Because they don't want to buy a fantasy RPG to play an average Joe. They want to be the HERO WHO SAVES THE WOOOOOOOORRRRRRLLLDDD! And there's nothing wrong with that.  But some people who don't hate Hawke (myself included) recognize that everyone has a story.  You, me, Hawke, that bum on the corner.  Hawke lived, loved, fought, bled, and ultimately failed.  doesn't mean she/he is a horrible character.  Hamlet didn't do so hot, either.  But most gamers don't want to play Hamlet.  They want to play the Warden, or Wesley/Buttercup, or Cinderella.

The trouble with DA2 isn't that the story is horrible or the writing is bad. I would argue that taken in a "slice of life" context, the story and writing are actually done well. it's that neither of those things are what we've come to expect from an RPG.

The problem is that most people bought DA2 and played it looking through a lens that was completely wrong for the game. I'm not saying that's the players' fault, either. The marketing for this game was handled so incredibly badly that I could lay most of the blame for the poor reception of DA2 at the feet of the marketers, especially when it came to story and relation to DAO.

All that being said, I actually enjoyed DA2, I like Hawke, and I understand the setting and story of the game as a piece of a larger whole.  This just happened to be the personal, slice oflife piece that needed to be told in order to set up the BIG SHOW in the next game. 

If anyone's interested in a western example of this kind of story, go rent a little movie called "You Can Count on Me."  it's a perfect example, and it's so well acted and written that you only realize it doesn't have a HUGE EPIC PLOT until after the movie's over and you're sitting there thinking, "man, that is one of the best movies i've ever seen."

Modifié par Skydiver8888, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:35 .

[Reaverwind]

Morroian wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

The story was supposed to be about Hawke, and his supposed rise to power.

No thats just you being sucked in by the marketing.

You mean blatently false advertising - and that goes straight to the heart of why Hawke is hated so much.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:50 .

[Cyberarmy]

BanksHector wrote...

I dislike Hawke because one of my companions is more important to the story then I am.

Actually 3 of them.

Varric act1, İsabella act 2 and Anders act3.

[Hadea]

Blessed Silence wrote...

Hadea wrote...

Some people like Hawke, some people don't. And then there are some people on both sides that make me feel like I'm bearing witness to a drunken brawl

Haha good one!

I don't like Hawke per se, though I don't like some of the ... acting on lines.  Some doesn't seem to have enough emotion behind them.

Granted I would have loved to make a main character like Origins did, but I'm happy with Hawke for now.

I do like Hawke for my own reasons, but I certainly don't think my opinion of him/her is superior to anyone else's.  I have a weak spot for hapless, accidental heroes.  That's just me

[Atakuma]

Reaverwind wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

The story was supposed to be about Hawke, and his supposed rise to power.

No thats just you being sucked in by the marketing.

You mean blatently false advertising - and that goes straight to the heart of why Hawke is hated so much.

Hyperbolic marketing is hardly a legitimate reason to hate a character.

[ebevan91]

I like Hawke, but I think the male version suffers from the Commander Shepard Syndrome.

He sounds boring at times unless you click the agressive or direct action option in the conversation wheel.

I liked getting revenge on the templars for taking Bethany. Speaking of Bethany, I raised her magic by about 30 points after getting her back at the end of the game. Soooooo much win. The fights got rather easy lol!

Modifié par ebevan91, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:20 .

[Hadea]

ebevan91 wrote...

I like Hawke, but I think the male version suffers from the Commander Shepard Syndrome.

He sounds boring at times unless you click the agressive or direct action option in the conversation wheel.

I liked getting revenge on the templars for taking Bethany. Speaking of Bethany, I raised her magic by about 30 points after getting her back at the end of the game. Soooooo much win. The fights got rather easy lol!

The male Hawke sounds creepy to me, every time I tried to play him, I kept thinking of the city elf origin and Vaughan.  Ugh.  Did they really have to use his VA?

Modifié par Hadea, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:55 .

[Raizen10e]

I liked Hawke...o.o i didnt even know there was soooo much hate for the guy/girl until i saw this forum... i mean i knew there was lots of hate towards DA2 but didnt know there was some aimed at Hawke...
I was rather happy with Hawke... i was able to customize him fairly nice, subtle enough where the voice still matched but different enough for me to call him my own. was also happy they kept the face tat from origins (my avatars). i felt a connection towards him since my warden was an Amell. and i dunno what dialog options everyone else did, but i thought the NPCs reaction towards a lot of the sarcastic responses was pretty good... not the best ever but still nice. a good example is when youre talking to the Templar who mentions his suspect is a man named DuPuis.. i laughed at the name IRL, chose the cocky response who then also laughed and made fun of the name, and the Templar seemed a bit embarrassed simply stating "uh yeah.. i think it's orlesian.."

maybe becuz i lean more towards mage i enjoyed him i dunno...

[Drasanil]

Atakuma wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

The story was supposed to be about Hawke, and his supposed rise to power.

No thats just you being sucked in by the marketing.

You mean blatently false advertising - and that goes straight to the heart of why Hawke is hated so much.

Hyperbolic marketing is hardly a legitimate reason to hate a character.

It's a perfectly legitimate and documented reason to hate a character.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't hate Hawke, but I do find the character rather boring.

The character was set by Bioware so I can't choose a race or origin or have much flexibility with class ability assignment. The dialogue wheel with it's inaccurate paraphrases even limits the ability of a player to accurately make choices to define a character and personalize it.

The overriding feeling to me when I played DA 2 was "play our character!" instead allowing me to make a character and experience the game in a different flavor on potentially several playthroughs. The power and choice feels more in the game developer's hands with DA 2. And "Hawke" just is not very interesting a character. I didn't find the plot that entertaining and the Hawke family just doesn't make for any dynamic roleplaying since they die or establish little to no connection with Bioware's main character.

[Huntress]

Aaleel wrote...

I found Hawke uninteresting as the game presented him/her.

What was Hawke's life like before the darkspawn attacked. I don't know, I have to make it up in my head.

How did Hawke make his/her name during the first year, why did we stay living in poverty when the Blight ended when we could have gone back and restarted our lives back home. Don't know either answer, I have to make it up in my head.

What happened during the first 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the second 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the time between the end and when Varric talks with Cassandra for the last time. I don't know I have to make it up in my head.

The game spans a 10 year time span, I played ONE year, one friggan year out of TEN. I don't play games to simultaneously write fan-fiction for 90% of the story.

Isn't that what made DAO so great? Making things happen in players head?

Time skip was.. an opening for new dlc.. yes! thats it!  I'll buy the ones I feel is worth buying.
I hope bioware comes up with something after act 2 and act 3 thought, not fun of how it ended, I think is... meh but I still like DA2.