539 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

I don't dislike Hawke, but I did have some problems with her. She was to reactive as some people have mentioned already, it seems more reactive then the warden because there are very few decisions Hawke can actually make, and the ones s/he can make have almost no perceived influence on anything.

What did bother me wasn't so much Hawke but the way the story was put together around Hawke, who seems to do absolutely nothing between time leaps that are way to large for what takes place during them, and you have almost no influence over the story, had Hawke died in Lothering, the idol still would have been found by the expedition, the Qunari still would have attacked the city and been repelled, and the war between the mages and Templars still would have happened. Bioware in the past has always tried giving the illusion of choice and made the PC important to the storyline, Hawke has neither, and I am not talking about someone else being able to do what Hawke did, what I am talking about is that if nobody did anything that Hawke did, the story still plays out the same.

Dont even get me started on act3, it was a fiasco. Prepare for a fight, I will be coming back with my army, as the character slowly turns and walks away and Hawke just stands there watching them leave, for all the faults of act 3, having someone tell my PC they are leaving and coming back with their army to kill me while standing 3 feet away from me is the worst writing I have ever seen, they didnt even make some kind of flashy get away as Hawke tried to stop them, s/he just stands there and does nothing while they walk away.

[RagingCyclone]

Catching on this a little late, but I couldn't say I dislike Hawke, but rather didn't like the storyline for Hawke's rise. I've seen a complaint about Hawke being reactive instead of proactive...that's a norm in most games. But to stay in the DA universe, while the Warden was reactive, he/she was reactive to events of the blight. There was a sense of urgency that propelled the warden's story where he/she needed to do things to stay ahead or keep up with the events of the blight. However, Hawke does not have the same circumstances. There is no underlying event or purpose to make Hawke HAVE to do things. The warden had to do things because he/she was a warden, that was their purpose. For Hawke...there is no real purpose for he/she to do those things. What Hawke ends up doing could have been done by any Joe Blow off the street. My disappointment was I expected a story about self discovery along of the lines of KOTOR:TSL, and in that game the Exile was always being hunted by one group or another, so there was a sense of urgency while the Exile still tried to find answers about himself/herself. Hawke's story misses that after getting inside Kirkwall. Where the Exile was being forced to move forward, Hawke has no underlying reason other than he/she lives there...as does any number of others. While some like this type of story and found it enjoyable (and I am glad they do) it's still not everyone's "cup of tea". I think when it comes down to the bones of the debate, it's that lack of underlying propelling story making the center Hawke because it's Hawke. Why Hawke and not someone else? What makes Hawke unique? Why is Hawke there and the only one that can do these things? As I said some like Hawke being an average person rising up just to rise up, and others want a reason for Hawke to be the one to rise up. As long as that underlying story is missing to make Hawke THE reason for the story...this debate will continue.

[Aaleel]

Huntress wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I found Hawke uninteresting as the game presented him/her.

What was Hawke's life like before the darkspawn attacked. I don't know, I have to make it up in my head.

How did Hawke make his/her name during the first year, why did we stay living in poverty when the Blight ended when we could have gone back and restarted our lives back home. Don't know either answer, I have to make it up in my head.

What happened during the first 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the second 3 year time skip. Don't know, had to make it up in my head.

What happened during the time between the end and when Varric talks with Cassandra for the last time. I don't know I have to make it up in my head.

The game spans a 10 year time span, I played ONE year, one friggan year out of TEN. I don't play games to simultaneously write fan-fiction for 90% of the story.

Isn't that what made DAO so great? Making things happen in players head?

Time skip was.. an opening for new dlc.. yes! thats it!  I'll buy the ones I feel is worth buying.
I hope bioware comes up with something after act 2 and act 3 thought, not fun of how it ended, I think is... meh but I still like DA2.

You didn't make up 90% of the Warden's story in your head, not close.  It's not even comparable.  There weren't multiple stretches of years of unaccounted for time in the Warden's story that you just had to fill in yourself. 

You actually got to know and spend time with your family in Origins before they started killing them off.  Also Origins just didn't jump forward time and say you secured the treaty from the dwarves, destroyed the anvil and picked Harrowmount as king.  Then you're just standing around asking why did I do some of this wishing you could have played through the events.

[Chuvvy]

It's based off of an unnatural attachment to the warden that most people here have, also I think people confuse poor story with a bad protag. Hawke being reactive instead of proactive has nothing to do with the character it's the story. That said, Hawke's okay, I wouldn't care if they had another protag change in DA3.

Modifié par Slidell505, 23 juillet 2011 - 03:47 .

[erynnar]

Zjarcal wrote...

It's mostly hate by association. A lot of people hate DA2 and since Hawke is the face of DA2, they hate him/her.

Not me mind you, but that's pretty much the case for all the Hawke haters.

That is way to broad a brush and only covers a small percentage of people who hate or don't like Hawke.

@Slidell again, only a small percentage. I do like all of my Wardens better ( and I haven't even played to the end with all of them yet. Some are still in their origins stories). But they are more fully fleshed out characters with flaws than Hawke. I feel for their lives, their families, their cicumstances.

Unlike Hawke who isn't, and didn't have any of those things happen. I don't feel for Hawke's family (barely got to know them, if at all). I dont' have a feel for Hawke's history or circimstance. Maybe the DLC will address that with daddy Hawke's past. Who knows.

Modifié par erynnar, 23 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .

[Peridian]

If there was anything I didn't like about Hawke then it would be his inability to take a firm stance when faced with several problematic situations. There were times he should've just been able to say "Screw this, this isn't my affair. I'm not getting involved.". This should've been an option, even if it meant losing out on the grand finale.

On the subject of not making a difference though, it occured to me that this may have been an attempt to simulate real-life. No matter how you think and act, it isn't always possible to change the core way of how people think. They have their own opinions and morals (which may or may not be swayed easily).

I'd be surprised if someone could change the way I thought with no more than a few lines or a few good/bad deeds here and there. It might make me think about things more but in the end I'm the one who decides what to think and how to act.

That's what I liked about DA2; that it wasn't all about Hawke, as it is with the main character in other games. What you do is important, to be sure, but in the end Hawke just got to suck it up and accept that **** happened no matter what you did.

[TMZuk]

Auroras wrote...

 Hey guys, I'm not trying to troll, I honestly would like to know: why do people hate Hawke so much? S/he's not that bad of a character. I actually enjoyed playing as her. 

Could I get some non-flamey, non-troll-y opinions, please?

Because he or she isn't my character, and because they just abandoned the warden without any sort of closure.

[Pasquale1234]

erynnar wrote...
Unlike Hawke who isn't, and didn't have any of those things happen. I don't feel for Hawke's family (barely got to know them, if at all). I dont' have a feel for Hawke's history or circimstance. Maybe the DLC will address that with daddy Hawke's past. Who knows.

It might help to address some of it - but as much as I really want to like this game and support it, I'm just not able to muster enough interest to bother with the DLC at this point.

Peridian wrote...

On the subject of not making a
difference though, it occured to me that this may have been an attempt
to simulate real-life. No matter how you think and act, it isn't always
possible to change the core way of how people think. They have their own
opinions and morals (which may or may not be swayed easily).

Those are fine themes to explore in other forms of fiction - like novels and movies - where your participation is limited to a few hours and is primarily as a passive observer.

A game in which you (supposedly) role-play the protagonist and devote 50 hours or more of your time actively  trying to accomplish something is not the right venue for this type of story, imho.

ETA: And I don't play fantasy games to experience more of real life.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:50 .

[Cyne]

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2. All of his companions have more of a personality than him, and that is saying something. I would be hard pressed to describe him as being distinctive in any way, or driven by anything in particular.

[Morroian]

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

[erynnar]

Peridian wrote...

If there was anything I didn't like about Hawke then it would be his inability to take a firm stance when faced with several problematic situations. There were times he should've just been able to say "Screw this, this isn't my affair. I'm not getting involved.". This should've been an option, even if it meant losing out on the grand finale.

On the subject of not making a difference though, it occured to me that this may have been an attempt to simulate real-life. No matter how you think and act, it isn't always possible to change the core way of how people think. They have their own opinions and morals (which may or may not be swayed easily).

I'd be surprised if someone could change the way I thought with no more than a few lines or a few good/bad deeds here and there. It might make me think about things more but in the end I'm the one who decides what to think and how to act.

That's what I liked about DA2; that it wasn't all about Hawke, as it is with the main character in other games. What you do is important, to be sure, but in the end Hawke just got to suck it up and accept that **** happened no matter what you did.

I don't play video games so I can have more powerlessness like in real life (my job is largely sorrow-filled, and powerless to ease the suffering of others). I don't need a video game which is supposed to help me escape that to mimic real life.Dunno about everyone else, but I don't.

[erynnar]

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

Hawke was an ineffectual milksop. A car on rails where I got to choose the Happy/Sneezy--douchey/Grumpy--douche air freshner. I got to watch a movie in between Fed Ex commercials in which Hawke was the errand girl/boy. 

I think what sealed my dislike for my Hawke was when she waited until dark to even try rescuing a certain person from a mad floral arranger.  Hawke, who casts spells in front of templars, mass murders people in front of eye witnesses in broad daylight...but can't go save a (allegedly) very important person in their life? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Yeah, Hawke was interesting all right. In the way that looking at mold under a microscope is. But pull away and take a look from a distance and not so thrilling.

I would have liked her better if she had saved a certain someone, and been able to talk the Arishok out of fighting over Isabela. If my Hawke could have handed him what he wanted and talked him out of fighting or taking Isabela, my respect for Hawke would have gone up a bit.

Modifié par erynnar, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[billy the squid]

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

Hawke was an ineffectual milksop. A car on rails where I got to choose the Happy/Sneezy--douchey/Grumpy--douche air freshner. I got to watch a movie in between Fed Ex commercials in which Hawke was the errand girl/boy. 

I think what sealed my dislike for my Hawke was when she waited until dark to even try rescuing a certain person from a mad floral arranger.  Hawke, who casts spells in front of templars, mass murders people in front of eye witnesses in broad daylight...but can't go save a (allegedly) very important person in their life? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Yeah, Hawke was interesting all right. In the way that looking at mold under a microscope is. But pull away and take a look from a distance and not so thrilling.

I found Hawke to be as interesting as watching someone spend four days trying to pull open a door which says push.

[Tirfan]

^ Well, I'll drink to that and Erynnars post - she said it much better than I ever could - though, I would add I don't find playing an sociopath very interesting but.

[Atakuma]

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

Hawke was an ineffectual milksop. A car on rails where I got to choose the Happy/Sneezy--douchey/Grumpy--douche air freshner. I got to watch a movie in between Fed Ex commercials in which Hawke was the errand girl/boy. 

I think what sealed my dislike for my Hawke was when she waited until dark to even try rescuing a certain person from a mad floral arranger.  Hawke, who casts spells in front of templars, mass murders people in front of eye witnesses in broad daylight...but can't go save a (allegedly) very important person in their life? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Yeah, Hawke was interesting all right. In the way that looking at mold under a microscope is. But pull away and take a look from a distance and not so thrilling.

I would have liked her better if she had saved a certain someone, and been able to talk the Arishok out of fighting over Isabela. If my Hawke could have handed him what he wanted and talked him out of fighting or taking Isabela, my respect for Hawke would have gone up a bit.

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

[FieryDove]

erynnar wrote...

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

No that doesn't count....be real here.
Hawke has a voice. Hawke can smirk or make frowny faces.

What does the warden have? He/she can make a real rise to power. (That means something)
He/she can be a living hero or make the US. That's just....unacceptable to what Hawke...doesn't do.
/snark
Yes I agree with everything you said.

For the record I don't hate Hawke at all. Nor do I live in the camp (MY Warden or else!)
I am just hoping an expansion or DA3 ties it all up. They all keep disappearing, what are they doing?! Maybe Flemeth recruited them for secret project. Although she might not be too happy with some of my Wardens...ahem

[Redcoat]

Peridian wrote...

If there was anything I didn't like about Hawke then it would be his inability to take a firm stance when faced with several problematic situations. There were times he should've just been able to say "Screw this, this isn't my affair. I'm not getting involved.". This should've been an option, even if it meant losing out on the grand finale.

On the subject of not making a difference though, it occured to me that this may have been an attempt to simulate real-life. No matter how you think and act, it isn't always possible to change the core way of how people think. They have their own opinions and morals (which may or may not be swayed easily).

I'd be surprised if someone could change the way I thought with no more than a few lines or a few good/bad deeds here and there. It might make me think about things more but in the end I'm the one who decides what to think and how to act.

That's what I liked about DA2; that it wasn't all about Hawke, as it is with the main character in other games. What you do is important, to be sure, but in the end Hawke just got to suck it up and accept that **** happened no matter what you did.

Well yes, in reality not everyone can make a huge difference, and often someone's entire efforts can come to naught, but in a game that supposedly about player agency and "rise to power," it simply makes the hero seem ineffectual. I'd wager that the vast majority of players don't want to play as someone who fails repeatedly.

Which is somewhat related to other issue with Hawke...that I can't roleplay as the Hawke I want to be. Since the Warden was a silent protagonist, whose facial expression was kept hidden, allowing me to imagine any reaction she might have, and who could say whatever he/she wanted to say, I felt like I had a great deal of freedom in what sort of character I could create...to the point where I'm seriously considering writing a story about my psychopathic, bloodthirsty City Elf. But with DA2's voiced protagonist, combined with the paraphrase system that does nothing except obscure what my character will say, I'm suddenly much more limited in what sort of character I can conceive. It's particularly jarring when starting a second playthrough, where I try to roleplay as a vastly different Hawke, yet he sounds exactly like my first Hawke!

Modifié par Redcoat, 24 juillet 2011 - 12:11 .

[Morroian]

Atakuma wrote...

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

I agree with your general principle that its the game design, which is why I find the seeming personal dislike for Hawke bemusing.

[TEWR]

Atakuma wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

Hawke was an ineffectual milksop. A car on rails where I got to choose the Happy/Sneezy--douchey/Grumpy--douche air freshner. I got to watch a movie in between Fed Ex commercials in which Hawke was the errand girl/boy. 

I think what sealed my dislike for my Hawke was when she waited until dark to even try rescuing a certain person from a mad floral arranger.  Hawke, who casts spells in front of templars, mass murders people in front of eye witnesses in broad daylight...but can't go save a (allegedly) very important person in their life? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Yeah, Hawke was interesting all right. In the way that looking at mold under a microscope is. But pull away and take a look from a distance and not so thrilling.

I would have liked her better if she had saved a certain someone, and been able to talk the Arishok out of fighting over Isabela. If my Hawke could have handed him what he wanted and talked him out of fighting or taking Isabela, my respect for Hawke would have gone up a bit.

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

I have to agree with this. Though it's not how I want my Hawke to be interesting, fanfiction is how I'm going to make him interesting. A revolutionary leader for the impoverished mages, rising from lowly refugee to Champion by building political connections all throughout Kirkwall (and maybe more of the Free Marches?), slayer of the Arishok after he points out the hypocrisy in his thinking, the leader of the Mage Underground, and many more things.


Even my Wardens weren't as interesting as I wanted, but I do admit DAO had more room for them to be good characters.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juillet 2011 - 12:16 .

[Sutekh]

FieryDove wrote...
No that doesn't count....be real here.
Hawke has a voice. Hawke can smirk or make frowny faces.

What does the warden have? He/she can make a real rise to power. (That means something)
He/she can be a living hero or make the US. That's just....unacceptable to what Hawke...doesn't do.
/snark

I know it's snark, but I find you quite unfair here. I adore my Wardens (most of them anyway) and like some of my Hawkes a lot. There's one I hate, and had to give up playing, but that's my fault for making him the douchebag he's become ('twas an experiment). Anyway, it has nothing to do with voice and expression. I know I can be shallow, but not that shallow, and I don't think I'm the only one to like Hawke for roleplaying reasons and despite the story and wasted potential.
Above all, I don't see the need to put one against the other. I really don't get the competition. 

[Icinix]

I don't hate Hawke.


Hawke just isn't MY character the way the Warden is.

[Ayanko]

I liked Hawke his appearance, his fighting style, his voice what. What I didn't like about him was what he said, or the fact he's now important than my warden, I mean what? My warden stopped a darkspawn army, baby sat and practically raised a king while doing most of the work, AND working an Arldom, and now apprantly this guy is better? No he's bloody not. He's not important, in fact the only important person in DAII was Anders. I'd like my warden back now or at least someone who can live up to the title "Hero"

[FieryDove]

Sutekh wrote...
I know it's snark, but I find you quite unfair here.

Above all, I don't see the need to put one against the other. I really don't get the competition. 

It is not a poke at everyone. Its for all the people who say the warden is mute/stone faced and the most boring thing on the planet. The same can be said for Hawke and He/She has expressions and a full time voice. (The Warden had one too just not a full voiceset for conversations)

I don't know why everything is vs. everything. Human nature?

I want to find out what happened to both...and the Morrigan questline but maybe I'm hoping for too much.

Btw I dislike cliffhangers, DAA and DA2 felt that way to me.

[Sutekh]

FieryDove wrote...
It is not a poke at everyone. Its for all the people who say the warden is mute/stone faced and the most boring thing on the planet. The same can be said for Hawke and He/She has expressions and a full time voice. (The Warden had one too just not a full voiceset for conversations)

I am one of those who don't like the mute expressionless Warden way, because it becomes downright creepy at times (although it gets better in Awakening). But that's nothing to do, for me, with him (her) being interesting or not, because boring? Really? The Warden is as boring as [general] you make him. And agreed on "same can be said for Hawke", on both accounts.

I don't know why everything is vs. everything. Human nature?

It's a sad, sad thing (just to be clear, that wasn't directed at you, btw, but generally).

I want to find out what happened to both...and the Morrigan questline but maybe I'm hoping for too much.

Btw I dislike cliffhangers, DAA and DA2 felt that way to me.

Exactly. They exit stage right without any indication about what happens next the exact same way. Idem at the end of WH (if the Warden doesn't pull an Alice Through the Looking Glass, that is). Frustrating.

But lots of people consider their Warden done (dead or retired), so I've very little hope to have resolution on that matter.

[Icinix]

Atakuma wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Cyne wrote...

Hawke is boring, dispassionate and a symbol of the directionless pacing of DA2.

IMHO thats your fault for not making your Hawke into an interesting character. The potential is there to create an interesting Hawke cause I've done it and others have as well.

And the same goes for all those who say their Wardens were boring and un-interesting in comparison to Hawke then, no? I mean, if people's Warden's were boring it is their fault (they had a lot more to work with for the Wardens who were fleshed out and making their way to being epic).

Hawke was an ineffectual milksop. A car on rails where I got to choose the Happy/Sneezy--douchey/Grumpy--douche air freshner. I got to watch a movie in between Fed Ex commercials in which Hawke was the errand girl/boy. 

I think what sealed my dislike for my Hawke was when she waited until dark to even try rescuing a certain person from a mad floral arranger.  Hawke, who casts spells in front of templars, mass murders people in front of eye witnesses in broad daylight...but can't go save a (allegedly) very important person in their life? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! Yeah, Hawke was interesting all right. In the way that looking at mold under a microscope is. But pull away and take a look from a distance and not so thrilling.

I would have liked her better if she had saved a certain someone, and been able to talk the Arishok out of fighting over Isabela. If my Hawke could have handed him what he wanted and talked him out of fighting or taking Isabela, my respect for Hawke would have gone up a bit.

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

^^^

Yeppers!