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All the Hawke hate...?


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#126
erynnar

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Morroian wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

I agree with your general principle that its the game design, which is why I find the seeming personal dislike for Hawke bemusing.


Then you shouldn't be bemused at all. Hawke (the Warden) are the game. They are supposed to be our avatar into the game so that we can be in that world. If I get a broken down Gremlin that leaks oil, whose radiator leaks, and gets flats all the time and put it on a Autoban with pot holes the size of cows...instead of say a Porche on a well kept race track...well I am going to like neither.

#127
Addai

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Morroian wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.

I agree with your general principle that its the game design, which is why I find the seeming personal dislike for Hawke bemusing.

The game design shapes the story.  In theory I suppose a PC could transcend a poorly designed game and be popular on his/her own merits, but Hawke doesn't do that.

#128
N7M

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As vehicle to explore and control the narrative, Hawke is lacking. He seems like a donkey cart plodding along in deep grooves on a road oft travelled. Hawkes simple motivations are like the donkey's carrots, basic sustenance and possibly unfit for consumption. The world he explores seems like its only seen in the distance from the road.

#129
Drasanil

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Atakuma wrote...
All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.


Hawke as a character was designed for this game, the game was ment to showcase her alleged awesomeness, that the game only served to prove her lack there of, ties in directly to the fact that Hawke is a bad character. You keep saying it's 'the game's fault' and that we're somehow being 'unfair' to Hawke as a character, ignoring that Hawke as a character was designed to be as such.

So my counter point to you would be what are Hawke's redeeming features or merits as a character? It's all well and nice to blame the game but that you never bring up positives in Hawke's defence showcases the weakness of your argument.

Modifié par Drasanil, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:25 .


#130
Morroian

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erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

I agree with your general principle that its the game design, which is why I find the seeming personal dislike for Hawke bemusing.


Then you shouldn't be bemused at all. Hawke (the Warden) are the game. They are supposed to be our avatar into the game so that we can be in that world. If I get a broken down Gremlin that leaks oil, whose radiator leaks, and gets flats all the time and put it on a Autoban with pot holes the size of cows...instead of say a Porche on a well kept race track...well I am going to like neither.

Its not the dislike, obviously its reasonable to dislike a character you don't think is done well, its the way people seem to blame Hawke personally. If I read a book and think a character is poorly done I'll blame the author not the character.

#131
Shadow Fox

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Drasanil wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
All of those things can be attributed to bad game design and have nothing to do with the character. Hawke could only be as good a character as the game allowed, and it didn't allow much.


Hawke as a character was designed for this game, the game was ment to showcase her alleged awesomeness, that the game only served to prove her lack there of, ties in directly to the fact that Hawke is a bad character. You keep saying it's 'the game's fault' and that we're somehow being 'unfair' to Hawke as a character, ignoring that Hawke as a character was designed to be as such.

So my counter point to you would be what are Hawke's redeeming features or merits as a character? It's all well and nice to blame the game but that you never bring up positives in Hawke's defence showcases the weakness of your argument.

So we blame the character*Hawke* for the plot's stupidity and restrictivness instead of the writer*Bioware* who dictated as such?

#132
Guest_jollyorigins_*

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I don't hate Hawke, in fact I like the character a bit, but the problem is that Bioware kept babbling on and dribbling over how Hawke was the most "important and awesome" character in the DA universe, which he/she clearly wasn't. Hawke was, for act 3 mainly, not plot integral at all because everyone still turns on each other and boss Orsino and Meredith attack Hawke despite which choice you made (Meredith fight when siding with templars can be excused through her insanity however but it still has no real justification or explanation behind the motive.)

In truth, the whole "rise to power" and "important character" aspects was just sloppy writing by Bioware. There was never any rising to power because even after I become a Champion, which is nothing more than a powerless title, I'm still doing the same quests, babysittings and chores I was doing in Act 1, there was nothing in DA2 to suggest Hawke had a rise to power, all Hawke became was an extra, useless voice in the argument between mages and templars. Speaking of which, if Hawke is supposedly the most important person in the world because of this then that is a terrible reason, because Anders was more important than Hawke because he was the one to set off the war. The only part where Hawke may seem *slightly* plot integral was saving Kirkwall from the Arishok, beyond this. Hawke had very little motives, reasons and justifications for what he/she was doing in Kirkwall apart from being nosy.

The reason why people prefer the Warden is because they were plot integral, they were the only ones capable of defeating the Archdemon and ending the Blight, and in order to do that their motive was to unite the land and stop Loghain's tyranny on Ferelden; therefore the Warden's motives and reasoning for being in the plot was clear. Where as Hawke had no effect on anything that happens around him/her; Anders still blows up the chantry, Orsino still turns to blood magic, Meredith still tries to execute all mages even though the real culprit is standing in front of her about 3 feet away.

So in my opinion the reason why people hate on Hawke is because they feel the need to blame the character for the sloppy plot on Bioware's part. Would I like to see Hawke being the main character in DA3? Absolutely but we need to have a good plot for Hawke to be involved in and therefore giving them proper motives and reasons for why they are doing this apart from "because Hawke is awesome" or for the sake of doing it just to move further into the plot.

#133
Addai

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
So we blame the character*Hawke* for the plot's stupidity and restrictivness instead of the writer*Bioware* who dictated as such?

I don't know about "blame."  I mean, I figure we all have a grasp on the fact that Hawke is not a real person.  :huh:  People are talking about dislike of the character.

#134
Shadow Fox

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That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.

#135
Salaya

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.


I understand what you mean, but I saw my Hawke saying things I didn't want again and again.

But apart from that, it's just that for some of us, she represents the new direction of DA games.

#136
erynnar

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Morroian wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

I agree with your general principle that its the game design, which is why I find the seeming personal dislike for Hawke bemusing.


Then you shouldn't be bemused at all. Hawke (the Warden) are the game. They are supposed to be our avatar into the game so that we can be in that world. If I get a broken down Gremlin that leaks oil, whose radiator leaks, and gets flats all the time and put it on a Autoban with pot holes the size of cows...instead of say a Porche on a well kept race track...well I am going to like neither.

Its not the dislike, obviously its reasonable to dislike a character you don't think is done well, its the way people seem to blame Hawke personally. If I read a book and think a character is poorly done I'll blame the author not the character.



Ah! gotch ya!

#137
Drasanil

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.

 
You can choose the tonne in which Hawke responds, not how he/she responds. The Dialogue wheel limits your control over your own character by hiding the actual choices behind childish icons and poor paraphrasing.  
 
You could not identify with the character and his/her circumstances, making it harder to relate to them and therefore creating more resentment towards being forced to play that character. This can largely be laid upon the shoddy start of the game. No actual time in Lothering to allow you to get familiar with the character, the family and your past, and more jarringly no real reason why the Hawkes were caught with their pants down when everyone knew the blight was coming and people were beginning to evacuate.
 
You could resent the fact that the game consistently drives home how ineffectual Hawke is, and by consequence yourself. The whole rise to power and shape Kirkwall line could essentially be surmised as. “Stumble haplessly across important events while others shape the future.”
 
You could not like the voice acting.

#138
erynnar

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.


Because most of the time I don't know what is going to come out of her mouth for one. Wasn't too fond of the tones. And what little it changed the cinematic dialogues really left a lot to be desired. Still don't hate Hawke, I dislike her. All those things I mentioned just kept reminding me she wasn't my character.

And what Drasanil said.:lol:

Modifié par erynnar, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:50 .


#139
Rokky94

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Auroras wrote...

 Hey guys, I'm not trying to troll, I honestly would like to know: why do people hate Hawke so much? S/he's not that bad of a character. I actually enjoyed playing as her. 

Could I get some non-flamey, non-troll-y opinions, please?:)


Re-read what you said, S/he's not that bad a of a CHARACTER. 

I agree with this. As a character hawke is fine. As a protagonist however, h/she isn't as badass as the warden, therefore people hate. Also, a lot of people hate on DA2, and people need something to blame so they don't seem stupid, so hawke is their scapegoat.

#140
CroGamer002

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Because everything about DA2 sucks because it's different.

#141
Addai

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Rokky94 wrote...

I agree with this. As a character hawke is fine. As a protagonist however, h/she isn't as badass as the warden, therefore people hate. Also, a lot of people hate on DA2, and people need something to blame so they don't seem stupid, so hawke is their scapegoat.

Wrong.  Disliking the protagonist is part of not liking the game overall, but if anything it goes the other way.  The inability to find any mix of personality with game events that formed a likeable and sympathetic protagonist (to me, I stress) leads me to toss Hawke on the discard pile.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:56 .


#142
erynnar

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Rokky94 wrote...

Auroras wrote...

 Hey guys, I'm not trying to troll, I honestly would like to know: why do people hate Hawke so much? S/he's not that bad of a character. I actually enjoyed playing as her. 

Could I get some non-flamey, non-troll-y opinions, please?:)


Re-read what you said, S/he's not that bad a of a CHARACTER. 

I agree with this. As a character hawke is fine. As a protagonist however, h/she isn't as badass as the warden, therefore people hate. Also, a lot of people hate on DA2, and people need something to blame so they don't seem stupid, so hawke is their scapegoat.


Yes, insult people who have valid opinions that are different than yours by calling them stupid. Really makes your opinion so much better. *rolls eyes*

Liking, loving, hating, disliking Hawke are all subjective then there are facts people bring to it to give a foundation to those opinons.  I haven't noticed anyone here just hating Hawke to be a hater. At least not yet.

But I have noticed you and Mesina like to trot out the old "haters gonna hate" and "can't stand change," implying some sort of supiority.

OP, I hope you see the ones that have given you actual game play reasons as to why there is dislike (and even some hate) of Hawke. Doen't mean you have to.

Modifié par erynnar, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:58 .


#143
AngryFrozenWater

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erynnar wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.


Because most of the time I don't know what is going to come out of her mouth for one. Wasn't too fond of the tones. And what little it changed the cinematic dialogues really left a lot to be desired. Still don't hate Hawke, I dislike her. All those things I mentioned just kept reminding me she wasn't my character.

And what Drasanil said.:lol:

Then of course there is that slight issue that you really cannot chose how Hawke will respond: No matter what you choose you'll end up on the same railroad. Any story branch will wrap back as soon as you made a decision. ;)

#144
Sacred_Fantasy

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That's the thing I never got how you CAN hate Hawke as a character because you chose how he/she responds to everything.

Not everyting. I don't choose him/her to move south in prologue. I don't choose him/her to made a line or two remarks during each cutscenes. I don't choose him/her how to emphasize, control and express the tone the way I want to despite all the three limited blue, purple and red. He's fine for being a diplomatic person. That's all. He has slight persona problem everytime he investigate because he only knows how to talk in subtle tone. He has no idea how to investigate in snarky or mean voice tone the way I want him to.  He has major persona problem if I try to randomized the dialogue options. BioWare's Marian Hawke is best suited for snarky person only due to huge differences in how she stress her emotion for each dialogue options.

BioWare's Hawke is a pain to roleplay but more toleratable than binary totally predefined Shepard. Still, he/she is unable to connect me to the world the way my wardens did. So, immersive and personal attachment is zero factor in DA 2 which mean no fantasy journey which mean PAIN.

#145
Morroian

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Not everyting. I don't choose him/her to move south in prologue.

And I didn't choose for my Warden Cousland to be conscripted against his will by blackmail into the Wardens.

#146
Shadow Fox

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Let me clarify I too despise how limiting the game is,I hate how I ethier have to side with a crazed Templar or a blood mage for the endgame,I hate how the game forces a confrontation with my sibling through it's idiot plot I hate that I can't make a cocky but kind Hawke and I hate that I can't be an Arcane Warrior or a dual-wielding warrior.

But I fail to see how any of that is because of the character. Just Bioware making some...odd choices.

#147
The Edge

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I liked the Warden because you are (aside from a few predetermined aspects) playing as yourself and/or whoever it was you wanted your Warden to be. For me, personally, I filled the shoes of the Warden and became integral to the story.

My biggest gripe with Hawke is that he was advertised as such. I'm merely "controlling" Hawke rather than being "me" in his shoes (or at least that's how I felt about it :P).

This aspect in any other game is fine, but being a sequel to DA:O, I think it wasn't the best decision...

#148
Sacred_Fantasy

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Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Not everyting. I don't choose him/her to move south in prologue.

And I didn't choose for my Warden Cousland to be conscripted against his will by blackmail into the Wardens.

But you still admit it's your warden. I never admit Hawke as "MY" Hawke. Not in a million years.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 25 juillet 2011 - 03:38 .


#149
Addai

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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Let me clarify I too despise how limiting the game is,I hate how I ethier have to side with a crazed Templar or a blood mage for the endgame,I hate how the game forces a confrontation with my sibling through it's idiot plot I hate that I can't make a cocky but kind Hawke and I hate that I can't be an Arcane Warrior or a dual-wielding warrior.

But I fail to see how any of that is because of the character. Just Bioware making some...odd choices.

Well Hawke is limited, and the paraphrase and personality pigeonholing makes her further limited, but it's not so much the character making it bad as that these things all go together.

Seeing the footage of the DLC, I just think, ugh- I really do not care to slip into that skin again.

#150
jpmcruiser

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I DON'T LIKE GUYHAWKE'S VOICE. I wanna play as a young adult that hasn't had too much experience like my elf in DAO, not ****ing King Leonidus.