Aller au contenu

How Will Enemies Be Dehumanized in ME3?

Débuté par Guest_iOnlySignIn_* , juil. 20 2011 05:38

  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
130 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:38

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests
It's often not enough that enemies are "bad guys". Not enough that the protagonist is a professional soldier/killer like Shepard. To make us players kill enemies without the slightest remorse in games, enemies have to be dehumanized. That's one reason for the prevalence of monsters/zombies as enemies in games, because unconsciously we always regret killing our own kind (or any other really sapient species).

The Mass Effect series is no different. In ME1, 90% of the enemies are Geth. Just robots. Not even alive. So killing them is no more murder than trashing an old toaster. In ME2, the Collectors are bugs. Unable to speak unless possessed, only making gurgling noises (like the Geth). Mordin even assures us that they can't be saved: "Protheans dead long ago, Collectors just final insult", and Shepard personally said that "killing a Collector is probably doing it a favor". As for the mercs, well it's their job to kill/be killed for money, so you are free to feel no remorse whatsoever for them.

What I wonder is how are we going to feel completely remorseless for killing so many Cerberus agents in ME3. For all we know, despite being indoctrinated/brainwashed/misled into opposing Shepard, the majority of them could be like the Cerberus crew we meet in ME2: either well-meaning people who genuinely believe they joined Cerberus to help humanity (like Miranda, Jacob, Rupert), or some one who's largey clueless about what Cerberus did (like Kelly, Ken & Gabby).

My question is how will BioWare makes us NOT feel sorry for killing these people, even if they are hidden behind masks/shields/mechs. They are not just killer robots like the Geth, or mindless zombies like the Husks or the Collectors. They are people. Human. Most likely no more morally corrupt or despicable than Shepard or anyone on Shepard's team.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, never expressed any regret for killing any enemy. Let's see that change in ME3. Let's hope that is one of the "more emotional sides" of the Commander that we'll see.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:41 .

#2
javierabegazo
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:40

javierabegazo
  • Members
  • 6 257 messages
I can't feel remorse for having killed something that was out to kill me. That's just called "Survival" and "Instincts"

#3
Raiil
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:41

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages
They're indoctrinated.


Although to be frank, they don't have to be dehumanised for people not to care. There are those who feel no remorse for taking a life so long as someone was trying to take theirs first. It's not as if Shepard goes around gunning down innocents left and right. One can understand the fragility of life and the nuances of individuals- that they may just be trying to earn credits, or, as Samara points out, that they might be a loving father- and still not lose any sleep over it.

#4
sartt
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:43

sartt
  • Members
  • 545 messages
Im sure we can get some remorse in for them. After we eradicate every single Reaper.

#5
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:44

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Valentia X wrote...

They're indoctrinated.

Although to be frank, they don't have to be dehumanised for people not to care. There are those who feel no remorse for taking a life so long as someone was trying to take theirs first. It's not as if Shepard goes around gunning down innocents left and right. One can understand the fragility of life and the nuances of individuals- that they may just be trying to earn credits, or, as Samara points out, that they might be a loving father- and still not lose any sleep over it.

Actually I think it's the opposite. Samara said that she does NOT want to know someone is a devoted father if she killed him. Even a Justicar who's supposed to be merciless has to suppress her own compassion in order to not loose any sleep. She also said "I remember each being I have slain. They are always in my thoughts." So perhaps she did loose some sleep.

#6
CheeseEnchilada
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:46

CheeseEnchilada
  • Members
  • 1 213 messages
If the Cerberus agents keep their helmets on, I won't feel bad killing them. Just another generic, literally faceless enemy I have to gun down.

#7
Raiil
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:46

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

They're indoctrinated.

Although to be frank, they don't have to be dehumanised for people not to care. There are those who feel no remorse for taking a life so long as someone was trying to take theirs first. It's not as if Shepard goes around gunning down innocents left and right. One can understand the fragility of life and the nuances of individuals- that they may just be trying to earn credits, or, as Samara points out, that they might be a loving father- and still not lose any sleep over it.

Actually I think it's the opposite. Samara said that she does NOT want to know someone is a devoted father if she killed him. Even a Justicar who's supposed to be merciless has to suppress her own compassion in order to not loose any sleep. She also said "I remember each being I have slain. They are always in my thoughts." So perhaps she did loose some sleep.


Samara says she doesn't want to know, with an inference that it would keep her up at night. I'm saying that there are people who can know, and just flat out don't care- a very 'it's either them or me, and I choose me' mentality. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous post.

#8
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:47

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

javierabegazo wrote...

I can't feel remorse for having killed something that was out to kill me. That's just called "Survival" and "Instincts"

The problem here is that the fight is not even. It's not like Shepard has a trouble *surviving* against enemies so far - Shepard's combat skills are much more superior to any opponent.

With Cerberus agents for example, Shepard could have knocked them out instead of killing them. Why is that never an option? Killing a Collector is doing it a favor, OK, but how is killing a human whose only crime is working for Cerberus, something you yourself have done, along with most of your closest friends?

#9
Sebby
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:47

Sebby
  • Members
  • 11 993 messages
I already feel terrible for having to kill all those human patriots serving in Cerberus.

#10
Guest_HomelessGal_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:48

Guest_HomelessGal_*
  • Guests
Perhaps they'll reveal that all the Cerberus enemies are scientists; they already have a 50/50 chance of dying in the ME setting just getting out of bed in the morning.

#11
Raiil
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:48

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I can't feel remorse for having killed something that was out to kill me. That's just called "Survival" and "Instincts"

The problem here is that the fight is not even. It's not like Shepard has a trouble *surviving* against enemies so far - Shepard's combat skills are much more superior to any opponent.

With Cerberus agents for example, Shepard could have knocked them out instead of killing them. Why is that never an option? Killing a Collector is doing it a favor, OK, but how is killing a human whose only crime is working for Cerberus, something you yourself have done, along with most of your closest friends?


I might agree with your statement if it were a fist fight. It's not. They've got some serious hardware and Shepard is a walking, talking target of mass destruction.They're not going to back down- why should Shepard?

#12
Inutaisho7996
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:51

Inutaisho7996
  • Members
  • 818 messages
"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back. " -Malcom Reynolds

#13
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:52

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

If the Cerberus agents keep their helmets on, I won't feel bad killing them. Just another generic, literally faceless enemy I have to gun down.

You see, that is the thing that disturbed me enough to create this post. I've nearly had enough of "generic, literally facelss enemies".

In ME1 they swapped the two-eyed human head with the flashlight head of the Geth. In ME2 they gave Collectors four eyes and bug-likely appearances. That's all fine and dandy since the appearances have story reasons behind them.

In ME3 Shepard will be killing human, Cerberus agents, while being a human, and a former Cerberus agent himself/herself. I can't imagine how much a wasted potential it would be if this connection is not exploited.

#14
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:54

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back. " -Malcom Reynolds

I agree 100%, kill them right back.

But it would be extremely boring/unrealistic if you feel nothing about it.

It's like, you eat a cheese cake because it's delicious. But that doesn't stop you from thinking you'll get fatter because of it.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:56 .

#15
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:55

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

HomelessGal wrote...

Perhaps they'll reveal that all the Cerberus enemies are scientists; they already have a 50/50 chance of dying in the ME setting just getting out of bed in the morning.

Hahahahahaha good point. 

#16
Raiil
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:55

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

If the Cerberus agents keep their helmets on, I won't feel bad killing them. Just another generic, literally faceless enemy I have to gun down.

You see, that is the thing that disturbed me enough to create this post. I've nearly had enough of "generic, literally facelss enemies".

In ME1 they swapped the two-eyed human head with the flashlight head of the Geth. In ME2 they gave Collectors four eyes and bug-likely appearances. That's all fine and dandy since the appearances have story reasons behind them.

In ME3 Shepard will be killing human, Cerberus agents, while being a human, and a former Cerberus agent himself/herself. I can't imagine how much a wasted potential it would be if this connection is not exploited.


If you want to make it an option, sure, why not. But not every Shepard is going to have their guts twisted over giving everyone a shotgun kiss. My personal philsophy is if someone sticks a weapon in your face (or your direction), you respond in kind, and that extends to my Shepard as well. 

#17
Massadonious1
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:56

Massadonious1
  • Members
  • 2 792 messages
You're assuming that they're not being fed explict orders to kill Shepard, and that they wouldn't just regroup with their Cerberus buddies after they wake up from from being knocked out.

#18
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 05:59

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Valentia X wrote...

If you want to make it an option, sure, why not. But not every Shepard is going to have their guts twisted over giving everyone a shotgun kiss. My personal philsophy is if someone sticks a weapon in your face (or your direction), you respond in kind, and that extends to my Shepard as well. 

I agree. Just like that little boy who disappeared into the vents in the trailer. I bet there's an option to just ignore him.

As long as there are options, I'm fine. Not every soldier is merciless. In fact, most of them aren't.

#19
Raiil
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:05

Raiil
  • Members
  • 4 011 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

If you want to make it an option, sure, why not. But not every Shepard is going to have their guts twisted over giving everyone a shotgun kiss. My personal philsophy is if someone sticks a weapon in your face (or your direction), you respond in kind, and that extends to my Shepard as well. 

I agree. Just like that little boy who disappeared into the vents in the trailer. I bet there's an option to just ignore him.

As long as there are options, I'm fine. Not every soldier is merciless. In fact, most of them aren't.


But soldiers are trained and expected to put their feelings aside until the mission is over. And the mission isn't over until we standing on the last of the Reaper corpses.

Shepard has rained hellfire on the heads of thousands, plenty of humans included (statistics versus numbers) and has had ample opportunity to come to terms with the fact that they have killed a hell of a lot of people; Shepard might as well be classified as a WMD in their own right. They are an emotionally strong, tough as all hell marine- that is canon, as mentioned by a developer in another thread- and not the sort to really crumble under the pressure.

#20
CheeseEnchilada
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:06

CheeseEnchilada
  • Members
  • 1 213 messages

iOnlySignIn wrote...

You see, that is the thing that disturbed me enough to create this post. I've nearly had enough of "generic, literally facelss enemies".

In ME1 they swapped the two-eyed human head with the flashlight head of the Geth. In ME2 they gave Collectors four eyes and bug-likely appearances. That's all fine and dandy since the appearances have story reasons behind them.

In ME3 Shepard will be killing human, Cerberus agents, while being a human, and a former Cerberus agent himself/herself. I can't imagine how much a wasted potential it would be if this connection is not exploited.



I do agree with you in that there should be some sort of humanized enemy, or at least a moment to connect with your foe. However, since about 40% of our enemies will be Cerberus operatives, these will probably stay faceless, lest people become too uncomfortable with the gameplay. I'd guess the humanized enemy would be a bit rarer; think the salarians you can mercy-kill on Virmire, and the ones you have to put down if you set them free.

#21
Magicman10893
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:06

Magicman10893
  • Members
  • 643 messages
All the Cerberus enemies are probably covered head to toe in armor like the mercs. Scratch that, from what I see in the E3 demo video it shows all the Cerberus enemies have the faces covered by armor that resembles human heads in no way.

#22
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:12

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Valentia X wrote...

But soldiers are trained and expected to put their feelings aside until the mission is over. And the mission isn't over until we standing on the last of the Reaper corpses.

Shepard has rained hellfire on the heads of thousands, plenty of humans included (statistics versus numbers) and has had ample opportunity to come to terms with the fact that they have killed a hell of a lot of people; Shepard might as well be classified as a WMD in their own right. They are an emotionally strong, tough as all hell marine- that is canon, as mentioned by a developer in another thread- and not the sort to really crumble under the pressure.

I agree with all of that, but that doesn't preclude Shepard showing a little bit of emotion every now and then. I find those moments endearing. Like after Jack's loyalty mission: "I've made a lot of hard choices too. Like what to let go." Or in Arrival, how Shepard could opt to warn the Batarians of the imminent explosion and later regreted that it was too late. Or in LotSB's ending reminiscence with Liara.

This has nothing to do with Paragon vs. Renegade. It has to do with making Shepard more human and believable. Even for Renegades/badasses, the most memorable ones are the ones that show a softer human side. Like Michael Corleone. Or Magneto. Or Saren. Just my opinion though.

#23
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:14

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

I'd guess the humanized enemy would be a bit rarer; think the salarians you can mercy-kill on Virmire, and the ones you have to put down if you set them free.

That's an extremely good example. Mercy-killing the indoctrinated Salarians was a very satisfying emotional connection for me, especially because Salarians are my favorite species in the ME universe.

#24
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:17

Guest_Saphra Deden_*
  • Guests
I have empathy for every enemy I fight (minus the drone-like geth and Collectors), but I never feel bad exactly. You do what you have to do to survive. (plus, you know, it's a game)

Even the mercs can make you feel a little bad if you listen to their combat dialogue and hear them getting pissed and rallying as you kill their comrades. Just imagine them as being not too different from your own squad.

Or you think about the freelancers in Garrus' mission you shot in the back. Why did they join that assault? Were they all bad people? I doubt it. Many of the mercs killed going after Garrus probably just needed a pay check.


As for the Cerberus agents, I won't be surprised if Bioware takes it up a notch and distorts their voices a bit.

It's kind of funny, every now and then someone will post about how they feel wrong killing female opponents. That was always absurd to me, but there you go. Personally I think the ladies have much satisfying death gasps.

#25
Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 06:21

Guest_iOnlySignIn_*
  • Guests

Saphra Deden wrote...

As for the Cerberus agents, I won't be surprised if Bioware takes it up a notch and distorts their voices a bit.

Yeah that just reminded me of how the Shadow Broker Agents in LotSB have their voices distorted.

Heaven knows I hated that. What a cheap way to dehumanize the enemies. If I just killed a man I want to *hear it*. I want to see the blood on my hands. That's the realistic way an RPG experience is supposed to feel.

Andraste forbids they use the same cheap trick for Cerberus agents in ME3.
Retourner dans General Discussion


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Mass Effect
  3. → Mass Effect 3
  4. → General Discussion