130 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...
WWII was a business, Hitler rise to power was supported by ally countries, the bombardment of london was supported by Standar oil, Japan attack was wanted... is business, banquers and owners of armaments companies get richer with wars.

Mongols wars? If we roll back that much in time, well we could say that making wars to kidnappe womans is justified too.

Hitler was not supported, but he was not opposed until his invasion of poland due to allied post war guilt. and by standard oil do you mean the Middle eastern nations? considering that many allies had colonies in this area it wouldn't suprise me. Also, it was understandable if america wanted japan to attack. they had decided on neutrality before that, btu the countries being attacked were by and large our allies, while Germany was attempting to convince mexico to go to war with America. Who would you have sided with. Japan did strike the first blow however, making WWII a defensive one. and you actually just agreed with me. War is a business, an extension of diplomacy. the costs are just different is all.

I´m not debating how the war turned to be... " Japan did strike the first blow however, making WWII a defensive one" thats why they provoqued Japan . I like how you put "cost", yesterday wars were for power and lands, today wars are for power and resources, they still remain stupid and barbaric. If you wanted to end WWII, why not kill hitler? the weight of the moral that his face had was tremendous, just use a sniper and pum dead, it wasn´t that hard to the USA to kill Kennedy... Oh yes I forgot that the longer the war time is, the more profit rich people gets.
And war is not an extension of diplomacy, violence is used when diplomacy fails.

[easyt3hremember]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't think enemies in video games are dehumanized to make it easier on the player. It's just a game and most players have no problem gunning down enemies.

The reason we are given gas-mask enemies is to save space on the disk. Every enemy can be a clone but not look like a clone. It's more noticable if your enemies have uncovered heads because then you can see that they are re-using the same model(s) every time.

In REAL LIFE armies themselves are dehumanized to make it easier for them to follow orders and kill when ordered to. When someone can't be identified they have an easier time doing questionable acts because they feel less responsible.

Exactly, its easier to make enemies masked for devs becuase they don't need to make a unique human model for every enemy, also sometime's in Real Life armies they use Masks to intimidate they're enemies and get kind a faceless soldier kind of feel.

[mauro2222]

easyt3hremember wrote...

Exactly, its easier to make enemies masked for devs becuase they don't need to make a unique human model for every enemy, also sometime's in Real Life armies they use Masks to intimidate they're enemies and get kind a faceless soldier kind of feel.

Like the necrons, they don´t make sound, they don´t scream, they don´t show emotions or face expressions, they just march making the sound of empty cans, they walk slowly spreading death and destruction. True terrifying enemy.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:52 .

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

easyt3hremember wrote...

Exactly, its easier to make enemies masked for devs becuase they don't need to make a unique human model for every enemy, also sometime's in Real Life armies they use Masks to intimidate they're enemies and get kind a faceless soldier kind of feel.

Like the necrons, they don´t make sound, they don´t scream, they don´t show emotions or face expressions, they just march making the sound of empty cans, they walk slowly spreading death and destruction. True terrifying enemy.

Warhammer 40k necrons? 

Hell yeah!!!

[arne1234]

well their where rumors that one type of husk would be pregnant asari that you first have to shoot in the belly then in the head to prevent the offspring leaping at you. Now she is yust bloaty.

So you won't be shooting pregnant women.

[TexasToast712]

mauro2222 wrote...
 If you wanted to end WWII, why not kill hitler? the weight of the moral that his face had was tremendous, just use a sniper and pum dead,

Yes, because it would have been soooo easy to stroll into N*zi Germany with a sniper rifle and take out Hitler whom was likely armed and most even more likely heavily guarded. /sarcasm

Just shut up you filthy hippy.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:39 .

[arne1234]

And killing Hitler would have offcourse stopped all the relevants troubles in Germany that made it possible for Hitler to rise in power in the first place, right?
No killing Hitler would have caused the war to happen, the only difference would have been that we were now fighting himmler or one of his other nasty friends. Now a devils advocate during the treaty of versailles... someone that stood up for the germans and therefore prevented the starting conditions for NASI germany that could have saved us WO II

Modifié par arne1234, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:55 .

[nhsk]

mauro2222 wrote...

I´m not debating how the war turned to be... " Japan did strike the first blow however, making WWII a defensive one" thats why they provoqued Japan . I like how you put "cost", yesterday wars were for power and lands, today wars are for power and resources, they still remain stupid and barbaric. If you wanted to end WWII, why not kill hitler? the weight of the moral that his face had was tremendous, just use a sniper and pum dead, it wasn´t that hard to the USA to kill Kennedy... Oh yes I forgot that the longer the war time is, the more profit rich people gets.
And war is not an extension of diplomacy, violence is used when diplomacy fails.

Hitler survived several assassination attempts, inluding being BOMBED you ignorant dumb****.

Modifié par nhsk, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .

[arne1234]

He was also in jail for making a coup atempt on his goverment in 1923 people were very displeased with their goverment and the economic realities afther WO I.
Killing Hitler wouldn't have changed that.
You have to remembe germany was a land that was trying to reinvent themselfs. To get WO II you need to understand europe as it was back then.

Also non if this has anything to do with Mass Effect

[AtreiyaN7]

I actually felt sorry for the Protheans turned Collectors to be honest. Despite their appearance, personally, I thought they were to be pitied on some level. I even have some sympathy for the Infected in L4D2. It's not like they asked to be turned into zombies after all. Most of the time I regret killing any sentient lifeform, whether or not I can see their faces. This is probably because I'm a fairly hardcore Paragon with a conscience that refuses to shut up most of the time - heh. The only NPCs I haven't felt particularly bad about killing are Batarians, because the majority of my experiences with them thus far have been less than positive, heretic Geth (because they suppor tthe Reapers), aaaaand...Cerberus personnel in their current, quite human forms.

Honestly, I have enough disgust with what they did from ME1 to tide me over into ME3. BW doesn't even have to bother with dehumanizing them for me - hah. If you look at Indoctrinated people from the vids on the derelict Reaper in ME2...they still seem pretty much human. Ditto on the people in the Arrival DLC. I do think that one possible way in which they might be dehumanized could be cybernetic implants a la Saren. He did seem to have had a lot of organic bits replaced by the end (per his reanimation by Sovereign). Maybe the Cerberus enemies we fight in ME3 will have more visible, external signs of cybernetics? It would seem a little too Borg-like for my tastes, but who knows.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I'd like to be able to avoid at lest some fights dammit. You know..taking a different route...sneaking..diversions...stuff liek that.

I LOVED Crysis (not Crysis 2)  because of that. I made it my goal to pass the game with as least human kills as possible. If feels so rewarding, especially knowing what happens later.

But no. In ME3 we have Cerberus soldiers popping out of floors and falling from the skies, making battles unavoidable.

[Unpleasant Implications]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

If you want to make it an option, sure, why not. But not every Shepard is going to have their guts twisted over giving everyone a shotgun kiss. My personal philsophy is if someone sticks a weapon in your face (or your direction), you respond in kind, and that extends to my Shepard as well. 

I agree. Just like that little boy who disappeared into the vents in the trailer. I bet there's an option to just ignore him.

As long as there are options, I'm fine. Not every soldier is merciless. In fact, most of them aren't.

I figure they'll (Bioware) just slap a helmet on them and say, "They're Cerberus, ruthless terrorists. Kill the terrorists!" Or "They're indoctrinated, trust us, this is mercy." And why did you have to use the kid in the vents as an example? This immediately came to mind.

Kid:(with small, timid voice) Everyone's dying.

Shepard: I should go.

[DiegoProgMetal]

In a war, you kill or get killed. A good soldier like Shepard knows that.

[easyt3hremember]

The Only games I've played and I felt bad for shooting Soldiers was MGS3-4 I mean sometime's they freak out with fear and run away, make smug comments, and sometimes just plain ****** themselves in fear, so Maybe in ME3 if they wanted to give Cerberus Grunts a Human Feel they Should Show there emotions and not blindly run into a field of gunfire screaming "Ow, I need backup!, weeking there entegrity, and the ever so prominete huh-uh-ughh"

Modifié par easyt3hremember, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:37 .

[mauro2222]

TexasToast712 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...
 If you wanted to end WWII, why not kill hitler? the weight of the moral that his face had was tremendous, just use a sniper and pum dead,

Yes, because it would have been soooo easy to stroll into N*zi Germany with a sniper rifle and take out Hitler whom was likely armed and most even more likely heavily guarded. /sarcasm

Just shut up you filthy hippy.

Can´t you see the irony don´t you? It was easy to kill kennedy

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Shepard killed many Cerberus agents in ME 1 too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:05 .

[mauro2222]

nhsk wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I´m not debating how the war turned to be... " Japan did strike the first blow however, making WWII a defensive one" thats why they provoqued Japan . I like how you put "cost", yesterday wars were for power and lands, today wars are for power and resources, they still remain stupid and barbaric. If you wanted to end WWII, why not kill hitler? the weight of the moral that his face had was tremendous, just use a sniper and pum dead, it wasn´t that hard to the USA to kill Kennedy... Oh yes I forgot that the longer the war time is, the more profit rich people gets.
And war is not an extension of diplomacy, violence is used when diplomacy fails.

Hitler survived several assassination attempts, inluding being BOMBED you ignorant dumb****.

Yes I´m ignorant, telling otherwise is more ignorant too, the more you read the more you became aware of your ignorancy. If you are talking about project valkyrie and others, they failed yes, but nobody tried to empty a machine gun on hitler

[Core_Commander]

Umm... I remember killing a lot of humans, salarians, batarians, asari... some of them had very characteristic features, some of them had names, mannerisms you could glimpse throughout those short interactions, some of them betrayed you, some of them you have betrayed. I remember executing a kneeling woman, shooting her in the back of the head, after she helped you and promised to change her life, celebrating her newfound freedom.

No, ME certainly isn't going the easy "Star Wars" route with that. There is opposition, but most of them aren't just "some stormtroopers". You can name your victims, remember their expressions. If you get immersed enough, your Shepard can feel regret.

Sure, Collectors and Vorcha are the typical "evil is ugly, mow them down" type - but they're pretty much the rarest type of enemy in ME2. But what about Jentha? The scared, wounded merc? The jaw-dropped salarian? Or Samara, if you are so inclined?

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:25 .

[Pulletlamer]

I don't care if they are humans or not. Shepard is a soldier, in a battlefield. Cerberus, in this case, is the enemy. Yes, because they're brainwashed, indoctrinated, or for whatever reason. The reason doesn't matter. What matters is that you're in the middle of a fight, and they're shooting you. It's not like Shepard is going to say: I quit! I don't kill humans!
They're not innocent people. If I was Shepard, thinking about mercy would be stupid.

Another thing would be encountering Cerberus scientists/people unarmed. Then Shepard should have choice of sparing their lives or not.

If they joined Cerberus, it's their fault. I'm sure they knew the risks of joining a terrorist (or with fame of being terrorist) pro-human organization when they signed up. Even more when you join a combat-oriented cell. They're no different than mercs. They're paid to fight and follow orders. That alone are enough reasons to deserve being killed.

It's like if you were a WWII soldier. I'm sure you would probably feel sorry for killing people, most of them fathers and whatnot, but it's not like you're going to feel sorry for them in the middle of the fight, while they're shooting at you, and you don't have time to think, it's either kill or die. Putting psychological traumas aside (Shepard can be a ruthless bastard all the game and he is still sane mentally).


Dehumanization it's not necessary. There's plenty of WWII games, were you
kill the poor third reich soldiers who most of them IRL weren't even ****s themselves nor shared their ideology.

All the games need enemies. Most people (me included) conform themselves knowing they're the bad guys and in the game it's ethical to kill them. Also, here's a tip: don't go with the enemy, they (mostly) always loose in games.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:37 .

[Tree fox]

You know, in Archangels recruitment mission there is a Blue Suns girl named Jentha. You can talk to her about what Archangel did but when you're fighting with Garrus she pops out and you have to kill her.

[Golden Owl]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It's often not enough that enemies are "bad guys". Not enough that the protagonist is a professional soldier/killer like Shepard. To make us players kill enemies without the slightest remorse in games, enemies have to be dehumanized. That's one reason for the prevalence of monsters/zombies as enemies in games, because unconsciously we always regret killing our own kind (or any other really sapient species).

The Mass Effect series is no different. In ME1, 90% of the enemies are Geth. Just robots. Not even alive. So killing them is no more murder than trashing an old toaster. In ME2, the Collectors are bugs. Unable to speak unless possessed, only making gurgling noises (like the Geth). Mordin even assures us that they can't be saved: "Protheans dead long ago, Collectors just final insult", and Shepard personally said that "killing a Collector is probably doing it a favor". As for the mercs, well it's their job to kill/be killed for money, so you are free to feel no remorse whatsoever for them.

What I wonder is how are we going to feel completely remorseless for killing so many Cerberus agents in ME3. For all we know, despite being indoctrinated/brainwashed/misled into opposing Shepard, the majority of them could be like the Cerberus crew we meet in ME2: either well-meaning people who genuinely believe they joined Cerberus to help humanity (like Miranda, Jacob, Rupert), or some one who's largey clueless about what Cerberus did (like Kelly, Ken & Gabby).

My question is how will BioWare makes us NOT feel sorry for killing these people, even if they are hidden behind masks/shields/mechs. They are not just killer robots like the Geth, or mindless zombies like the Husks or the Collectors. They are people. Human. Most likely no more morally corrupt or despicable than Shepard or anyone on Shepard's team.

Shepard, whether Paragon or Renegade, never expressed any regret for killing any enemy. Let's see that change in ME3. Let's hope that is one of the "more emotional sides" of the Commander that we'll see.

I didn't feel great killing the Geth or Collectors....The Geth just a matter of they shoot at Shep, he shoots back....The Collectors, more of a mercy kill than anything, also once again the rule, they shoot at Shep, he shoots back....The Mercs, they chose that path, no sympathy....Cerberus agents, same as the Mercs....And have never killed or punched the non attacking animals, would feel worse for that.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .