130 réponses à ce sujet

[Soccer FeverMan]

mauro2222 wrote...

Well if I was the one shooting, I would probably feel remorse, even if the other wanted to kill me with an atomic bomb.. But Shepard is not a normal and natural human with defined morals, he is a soldier or a killer, for me are the same.

Im not sure if i fully comprehend what you meant, but what i'm thinking right now is i feel that is incredibly disrespectful to all soldiers in the world regardless of their country. Yes i realize some of them might have very little empathy or sympathy, but many of them are human and are not merciless killers. Most go in the armed forces because they have something they want to protect and be part of something bigger than themselves.

[Confused-Shepard]

Excuse while I heartily laugh at the notion that I'm supposed to feel sorry for people actively trying to kill me. Honestly? Bioware could have indoctrinated civilians fight you and I would shoot them just the same. I could have a nice, "Oh woe is me!" cry later. In fact, Bioware should totally do that.

[nhsk]

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes I´m ignorant, telling otherwise is more ignorant too, the more you read the more you became aware of your ignorancy. If you are talking about project valkyrie and others, they failed yes, but nobody tried to empty a machine gun on hitler

From 1923 and up to 1945 Hitler was the target of at least 17 assassination attempts, in war period 2 attempts at least per year, including bombs, being shot at, a bomb on a plane. But he survived mostly by mere luck sometimes, but also because he had a bloody fanatical lifeguard. All attempts served to make him more and more paranoid however and thus harder to kill.

I am sure if it was as easy to stroll into a country and kill a leader as you say that Gadaffi was dead already. Or there never was a reason to invade Iraq.

But the point is that even though you had managed to kill Hitler the allies feared that Eichmann, Himmler or someone even more ruthless would take over, they were regarded as even more a threat than Hitler.

And yes, you are ignorant. And still a dumb****.

Modifié par nhsk, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:59 .

[mauro2222]

Soccer FeverMan wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Well if I was the one shooting, I would probably feel remorse, even if the other wanted to kill me with an atomic bomb.. But Shepard is not a normal and natural human with defined morals, he is a soldier or a killer, for me are the same.

Im not sure if i fully comprehend what you meant, but what i'm thinking right now is i feel that is incredibly disrespectful to all soldiers in the world regardless of their country. Yes i realize some of them might have very little empathy or sympathy, but many of them are human and are not merciless killers. Most go in the armed forces because they have something they want to protect and be part of something bigger than themselves.

I´m not against what soldiers represent, and I´m aware of what they want to do, but what I hate is their training, they are conditioned to leave behind their humanity, they are brainwashed with propaganda, with a stupid sense of duty and such dishonored things that they became psychopaths. Those who disobey orders of not killing someone because there is no need, are true soldiers. Every single human life is bigger than any imaginary line in a map, their mission is to protect those who are defendless and to spread knowledge and tolerance among the people.

[Had-to-say]

I was watching a nature documentary on television on killer whales. There was a mother humpback and her calf migrating from one area of the ocean to another. The calf and its mother were approached by a group of about 5 adult killer whales. The killer whales followed the mother and her calf for miles, harrassing them until they could seperate the baby from the mother. It was a slow brutal process. They went at it until they exhausted both the mother and the calf.

Once they seperated the baby from the mother, they killed it and ate its tongue. The five killer whales then left the baby's body uneaten. The whales didn't even bother to eat more of the baby humpback. So much effort just to eat the tongue.

Some argue that animals can't feel compassion. Compassion is not the same in all creatures it is only documented that human beings can feel compassion. Not ever person qualifies as a human being. Nature dictates that animals be opportunist killers if it is beneficial or entertaining. Should we think that a human being is anything other than an animal? Self preservation is one hell of a motivator to commit murder, but humans also kill for recreation.

War is not a place to show compassion. It could be that we as a species are just not evolved much beyond animals.We still find entertainment value in watching other animals suffer, especially if they compete with or offend us. If  someone takes your mate you become hostile. It is in our programming. If someone takes your resources you will kill them if it means you are certain of your personal survival. We humans are very dirty animals.

Animals/humans come equipped with strange appetites. Some even have appetites for murder. I think the E.T.s will come when we evolve beyond the desire to kill. Shepard shows compassion, it is the one thing that seperates him from the Reapers.

Should we judge the Reapers for being self preserving opportunistic killers incapable of compassion?

Modifié par Had-to-say, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:16 .

[mauro2222]

nhsk wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes I´m ignorant, telling otherwise is more ignorant too, the more you read the more you became aware of your ignorancy. If you are talking about project valkyrie and others, they failed yes, but nobody tried to empty a machine gun on hitler

From 1923 and up to 1945 Hitler was the target of at least 17 assassination attempts, in war period 2 attempts at least per year, including bombs, being shot at, a bomb on a plane. But he survived mostly by mere luck sometimes, but also because he had a bloody fanatical lifeguard. All attempts served to make him more and more paranoid however and thus harder to kill.

I am sure if it was as easy to stroll into a country and kill a leader as you say that Gadaffi was dead already. Or there never was a reason to invade Iraq.

But the point is that even though you had managed to kill Hitler the allies feared that Eichmann, Himmler or someone even more ruthless would take over, they were regarded as even more a threat than Hitler.

And yes, you are ignorant. And still a dumb****.

Insulting me shows your level of education and maturity by the way. The attemps of assassination against hitler were from their own citizen or from outsiders? If it was from the inside, then there is your answer.

I´m not sure of what did you mean to say with Gadaffi, he is a tool, a puppet whos actions approved all over the years by the UN were finally made public, and the people is not happy with that, so they start a civil war in the country to remplace the puppet with another. Pretty much what the CIA done all over the years in South America.

[nhsk]

mauro2222 wrote...

Insulting me shows your level of education and maturity by the way. The attemps of assassination against hitler were from their own citizen or from outsiders? If it was from the inside, then there is your answer.

I´m not sure of what did you mean to say with Gadaffi, he is a tool, a puppet whos actions approved all over the years by the UN were finally made public, and the people is not happy with that, so they start a civil war in the country to remplace the puppet with another. Pretty much what the CIA done all over the years in South America.

I just don't have the patience to talk politely to anyone who thinks that waltzing into a country during war time to assassinate its leader is done so easily as you say. And it doesn't make a difference on whether the attempts were from in- or outsiders, if anything outsiders would have had a harder time making it to Hitler.

And even that Gadaffi is a tool, a puppet, if it was so easy to remove him I'm sure he would have been dead a long time ago, but you know what happens when foreigners kill a leader? They become martyrs, you don't want that and during the time of the third reich, a lot of puppets worse than the master puppet was waiting in the shadows to take over for Hitler.

And try snap back by insulting my level of education or maturity, yes good luck with that, I still say you don't know **** about the world, are ignorant and a dumb****.

[mauro2222]

nhsk wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Insulting me shows your level of education and maturity by the way. The attemps of assassination against hitler were from their own citizen or from outsiders? If it was from the inside, then there is your answer.

I´m not sure of what did you mean to say with Gadaffi, he is a tool, a puppet whos actions approved all over the years by the UN were finally made public, and the people is not happy with that, so they start a civil war in the country to remplace the puppet with another. Pretty much what the CIA done all over the years in South America.

I just don't have the patience to talk politely to anyone who thinks that waltzing into a country during war time to assassinate its leader is done so easily as you say. And it doesn't make a difference on whether the attempts were from in- or outsiders, if anything outsiders would have had a harder time making it to Hitler.

And even that Gadaffi is a tool, a puppet, if it was so easy to remove him I'm sure he would have been dead a long time ago, but you know what happens when foreigners kill a leader? They become martyrs, you don't want that and during the time of the third reich, a lot of puppets worse than the master puppet was waiting in the shadows to take over for Hitler.

And try snap back by insulting my level of education or maturity, yes good luck with that, I still say you don't know **** about the world, are ignorant and a dumb****.

Like who? who will rise up again to replace Hitler?
They don´t kill him because it will be direct intervention on the sovereign land of Libia, that will cause repercussions in the world against the UN.

"And try snap back by insulting my level of education or maturity, yes
good luck with that, I still say you don't know **** about the world,
are ignorant and a dumb****."

I don't have to say anything, you are showing yourself alone.

"And it doesn't make a difference on whether the attempts were from in-
or outsiders, if anything outsiders would have had a harder time making
it to Hitler."

If it was from the inside it would be probably due to differences in their ideals or for to not want a full scale war that in time will destroy their nation. If outsiders actually tried to assasinate him, it will because they care about the rising menace to other lifes, if they don´t is clearly because there is a benefit in that war, such as money and power, and guess what? that is what wars between nations are for. If they failed is because they can say "oh we tried" and erase all suspicions.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:45 .

[Nixter Shepard]

TIM Has been a Reaper in disguise this whole time.

[RocketManSR2]

Tree fox wrote...

You know, in Archangels recruitment mission there is a Blue Suns girl named Jentha. You can talk to her about what Archangel did but when you're fighting with Garrus she pops out and you have to kill her.

I wanted to recruit & romance her dammit!

Edit: This topic is really going off course. Topics that do that tend to end badly.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:51 .

[Skirata129]

mauro2222 wrote...

Like who? who will rise up again to replace Hitler?
They don´t kill him because it will be direct intervention on the sovereign land of Libia, that will cause repercussions in the world against the UN.

He's answered that question several times already. and assassinations can often cause more problems than they solve, as an assassination is only considered as such when it takes place outside of war. If we were at war with libya, we'd be free to send in a sniper team and hit Gaddafi from a mile away (yes it would be much more complicated than that), however because we are not at war, the US is prohibited from assassinating a foreign national by numerous laws. Most of the media organizations are extremely liberal and scream bloody murder if the word assassination is even hinted at.

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Like who? who will rise up again to replace Hitler?
They don´t kill him because it will be direct intervention on the sovereign land of Libia, that will cause repercussions in the world against the UN.

He's answered that question several times already. and assassinations can often cause more problems than they solve, as an assassination is only considered as such when it takes place outside of war. If we were at war with libya, we'd be free to send in a sniper team and hit Gaddafi from a mile away (yes it would be much more complicated than that), however because we are not at war, the US is prohibited from assassinating a foreign national by numerous laws. Most of the media organizations are extremely liberal and scream bloody murder if the word assassination is even hinted at.

Yes of course you would likely kill him, the military and the people, not the goverment or the banquers, for them war is profit, for us is life wasted and more debt.

[Skirata129]

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes of course you would likely kill him, the military and the people, not the goverment or the banquers, for them war is profit, for us is life wasted and more debt.

what are you talking about?

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes of course you would likely kill him, the military and the people, not the goverment or the banquers, for them war is profit, for us is life wasted and more debt.

what are you talking about?

What would happen if USA goes to war with Libia? You will want the head of Gadaffi (such a barbaric expression ) but the goverment, the weapons manufacturers and the banquers will want the war to continue as long as is possible.

[Skirata129]

the government wouldn't neccesarilty want the war to continue as wars are expensive, weapons and munitions manufacturers would, but the rest of the business industry would not as oil companies would use it as an excuse to jack up oil prices. War is rarely a profitable business nowadays since looting and pillaging were prohibited.

[lsmoke]

how will enemies be dehumanized in me3?

i think partly by most people not giving the humanization of characters in the game much thought (especially when theyre fodder for progress and XP in the game). no matter how well created the universe is the vast majority of enemies you end up blasting are nameless, identical grunts that people feel no more strongly for than the turtles that mario jumps on to do away with them.

sure there were a few emotionally deep enemies in me1 and me2, saren even. but in the end id have to say the vast majority of players make up their minds about how seriously to take the enemys humanity/existence/demise even before coming into contact with them (say someone playing paragon exclusively and/or someone playing renegade exclusively). plus it doesnt hurt that no matter from what standpoint youre playing shepard as, the game(s) at least thus far have all made it extremely appearant that youre doing something noble and galaxy-saving.

although i have a feeling that mass effect 3, being the end of the series, will have much deeper and darker possible choices for shepard a la KOTOR where you could take over being the villain of the galaxy, etc....

also i just want to add, i do think, me1 had many more ambiguously moral decisions in it where shepard himself had the potential to act as judge, jury, and executioner and i think thats something bioware should implement more in me3. me2 was all about shepard either encouraging or preventing the killings of others.

Modifié par lsmoke, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:20 .

[gunswordfist]

We'll feel no remorse for killing indoctrinated Cerberus while Bioware attempts to make us bad for doing so on certain occasions

[Skirata129]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Tree fox wrote...

You know, in Archangels recruitment mission there is a Blue Suns girl named Jentha. You can talk to her about what Archangel did but when you're fighting with Garrus she pops out and you have to kill her.

I wanted to recruit & romance her dammit!

Me too. I felt bad about killing her, because my shep would have tapped that.

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

the government wouldn't neccesarilty want the war to continue as wars are expensive, weapons and munitions manufacturers would, but the rest of the business industry would not as oil companies would use it as an excuse to jack up oil prices. War is rarely a profitable business nowadays since looting and pillaging were prohibited.

The goverment is not the people, they are individuals, politicians sell themselves everytime they can, if someone says to them I will support your campaing, they change all their formulas to make happy his master. Looting and pillaging is a old way of stealing, yes is not implemented nowadays. Is profitable for those who by today are the most powerful men in the whole world, the bankers.

[Someone With Mass]

I don't think it's a bad thing if I don't have any feelings about shooting a guy in the face with my sniper rifle.

And most enemies in ME3 won't even be humans.

Not anymore, at least.

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Tree fox wrote...

You know, in Archangels recruitment mission there is a Blue Suns girl named Jentha. You can talk to her about what Archangel did but when you're fighting with Garrus she pops out and you have to kill her.

I wanted to recruit & romance her dammit!

Me too. I felt bad about killing her, because my shep would have tapped that.

Jentha? I don´t remember her dammit. I remember something like Chief Jentha xD

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[Skirata129]

mauro2222 wrote...

[The goverment is not the people, they are individuals, politicians sell themselves everytime they can, if someone says to them I will support your campaing, they change all their formulas to make happy his master. Looting and pillaging is a old way of stealing, yes is not implemented nowadays. Is profitable for those who by today are the most powerful men in the whole world, the bankers.

true, and the businesses with the most money have the most to spend in washington for lobbying, and the biggest industry would be opposed to a war that drives up the price of oil. the food industry. bankers aren't the most powerful, they just hold other people's money in trust. if their clients lose their money due to debts and rising costs, no one wins.

[mauro2222]

Skirata129 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

[The goverment is not the people, they are individuals, politicians sell themselves everytime they can, if someone says to them I will support your campaing, they change all their formulas to make happy his master. Looting and pillaging is a old way of stealing, yes is not implemented nowadays. Is profitable for those who by today are the most powerful men in the whole world, the bankers.

true, and the businesses with the most money have the most to spend in washington for lobbying, and the biggest industry would be opposed to a war that drives up the price of oil. the food industry. bankers aren't the most powerful, they just hold other people's money in trust. if their clients lose their money due to debts and rising costs, no one wins.

Believe me, they win, a clear example is the crysis of 2001 in my country. They central bank emits the money that the state wants or need with interest or debt, when war comes more money is needed and the nation debt increase rapidly and the bankers gain more and more.

Modifié par mauro2222, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .

[RocketManSR2]

mauro2222 wrote...

Skirata129 wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Tree fox wrote...

You know, in Archangels recruitment mission there is a Blue Suns girl named Jentha. You can talk to her about what Archangel did but when you're fighting with Garrus she pops out and you have to kill her.

I wanted to recruit & romance her dammit!

Me too. I felt bad about killing her, because my shep would have tapped that.

Jentha? I don´t remember her dammit. I remember something like Chief Jentha xD

She was the second-in-command of the Blue Suns during Garrus' recruiting
mission. Damn she was hot. I felt bad putting that Mantis round between
her eyes.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:33 .