265 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

In the ME series asa whole?

amnely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.
Not to mention that  it should be pretty obvious that it's not geth, as all geth share some similarities and it should have been more than obvious after studying the remain, that the ship is FAR more advanced than anytihng the geth ever demonstrated, and it has different design and tech.


The nwe have the whole Ilos thing...the VI interfact? The prothean hybernation tubes? Waht, I know the VI lost power, but since when does loosing power destroy a a computer? Dont' tell me one can't recover any data from the hardware at all?

Or the "dead" reaper the Cerberus stumbled upon. Why keep it secret? There's the perfect proof of repaers right there!

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.
Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

[marshalleck]

Apparently the only way to make Shepard look good is for the rest of the galaxy to be bumbling idiots. Although even Shepard has a few turns on that ride as well.

[Fredvdp]

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

[marshalleck]

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:15 .

[Rivercurse]

Yeah I've also pretty much always assumed the Council know all about it but won't publicly say they do for obvious reasons.

[Bogsnot1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Namely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.

Gee, I dunno, maybe they didnt find any bits that contained any carbon?

Not to mention that  it should be pretty obvious that it's not geth, as all geth share some similarities and it should have been more than obvious after studying the remain, that the ship is FAR more advanced than anytihng the geth ever demonstrated, and it has different design and tech.

Previously unencountered technology benig "used" by the Geth who had not been seen outside the Veil for over 200 years. Its a safe enough assumption to make that its Geth.*

The nwe have the whole Ilos thing...the VI interfact? The prothean hybernation tubes? Waht, I know the VI lost power, but since when does loosing power destroy a a computer? Dont' tell me one can't recover any data from the hardware at all?

Shep's the only one who could understand it. By the time they work out how to safely fire it up without frying its circuits, Shep's dead.

Or the "dead" reaper the Cerberus stumbled upon. Why keep it secret? There's the perfect proof of repaers right there!

Secret, pro-human ex-blackops** covert organisation remember, They want to keep any advancved tech for themselves, for their own agenda.

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.
Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

Your lack of understanding and/or insight =/= plothole.


* Or safe enough assumption to let the general populace to make so they dont go into a panic and start doomsday cults, with the associated looting and breakdown of civil order, that goes with "end of days" scenarios.
** Or still part ofthe Alliance Military if you happen to be drinking the same Kool-Aid as Zulu_DFA

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:26 .

[Blarty]

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

I can see how you might think that, you'd be wrong, but I can see it.

Let's take the concepts of anecdotal, demonstrable or imperical evidence

Anecdotal, Saren's flagship attacks the Citadel, on board are geth, it is flanked by geth warships - no one has seen the Geth in centuries to know what technology the Geth have been creating, in order to provide any clear evidence to support that this is anything other than a big geth warship.

Demonstrable - geth platforms are fully mechanical realised AI, from the simple geth trooper right up to the Collossus, not a huge jump to surmise that their drop ships may in fact be platforms, so not a big jump again to move up to say the big Citadel attacking warship is 'just a platform'

Imperical - None. The Reapers destroy almost all evidence of their prior attacks in order to ensure there are few clues to warn new nascent species about their impending, inescapable doom. Sovereign is the only Reaper to be known, only after the attack on the Citadel is the derelict Reaper (supposedly hit by the Mass Field weapon that struck Klendagon) found.

The only ones who know of the Reapers first hand, and are truly aware of what Sovereign really is, are the Normandy crew (esp those party to the conversation at the Prothean Beacon on Virmire), Saren  and TIM.

Although you have to hate the Turian councillor, you can't take a single man's visions as truth (does not form a precedent nor indicates a subconscious broadcast into a number of people). Part of the true horror of the Reapers and their galactc genocide, is that nothing is known about them before they arrive, and they clean up nearly all evidence of them being there that when the cycle repeats, they are lost to the passage of time.

[Paulinius]

I love how they believe Shepard and his evidence about Saren which was just an easily fakeable recording but when he shows them a prothean world, the conduit, and sovereign they disregard it.

Makes perfect sense.

[marshalleck]

Blarty wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

I can see how you might think that, you'd be wrong, but I can see it.

Let's take the concepts of anecdotal, demonstrable or imperical evidence

Anecdotal, Saren's flagship attacks the Citadel, on board are geth, it is flanked by geth warships - no one has seen the Geth in centuries to know what technology the Geth have been creating, in order to provide any clear evidence to support that this is anything other than a big geth warship.

Demonstrable - geth platforms are fully mechanical realised AI, from the simple geth trooper right up to the Collossus, not a huge jump to surmise that their drop ships may in fact be platforms, so not a big jump again to move up to say the big Citadel attacking warship is 'just a platform'

Imperical - None. The Reapers destroy almost all evidence of their prior attacks in order to ensure there are few clues to warn new nascent species about their impending, inescapable doom. Sovereign is the only Reaper to be known, only after the attack on the Citadel is the derelict Reaper (supposedly hit by the Mass Field weapon that struck Klendagon) found.

The only ones who know of the Reapers first hand, and are truly aware of what Sovereign really is, are the Normandy crew (esp those party to the conversation at the Prothean Beacon on Virmire), Saren  and TIM.

Although you have to hate the Turian councillor, you can't take a single man's visions as truth (does not form a precedent nor indicates a subconscious broadcast into a number of people). Part of the true horror of the Reapers and their galactc genocide, is that nothing is known about them before they arrive, and they clean up nearly all evidence of them being there that when the cycle repeats, they are lost to the passage of time.

The Council admits belief in Shepard and the Reapers in ME1. In ME2 they've reverted to their pre-Battle of the Citadel selves, assuming they're still alive. That's regression, no matter how you try to spin it or explain it through the story (oh it's been two years and all's quiet, etc. etc.)

[who would know]

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

This irked me. If the council publicly denied events in order to keep the calm, fine. But they should be straight up when meeting with Shepard.

Modifié par who would know, 20 juillet 2011 - 11:36 .

[SomeKindaEnigma]

Sweet, yet another plothole thread. Never gets old.

[marshalleck]

who would know wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

This irked me. If the council publicly denied events in order to keep the calm, fine. But they should be straight up when meeting with Shepard.

Exactly. It's not like this scenario would be any more difficult or challenging to write than having the Council not believe Shepard. It's all explained by Bioware themselves anyways, as I mentioned earlier. If you hit google and go back a few years to ME2 previews, you can catch many instances of Casey talking about how Shepard is to be isolated from his/her friends and allies to make ME2 more dark. 

Whether that worked or not is up the player. Personally I think it didn't. 

[CitizenSnips]

The Alliance also knows about it but it keeping it under wraps.

[Tasker]

It'll probably end up that they denied the Reapers in order to get Shep to run around like a headless chicken to divert the Reapers attention from their secret anti-reaper research project.

Then right at the end of ME3 just as the end looks bleakest, the Turian counsellor pops up, air quotes and says " Ah yes, Reapers.... SURPRISE MOTH** *******! " and blows them away with a big anti-reaper cannon.

[Someone With Mass]

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Namely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.

Gee, I dunno, maybe they didnt find any bits that contained any carbon?

Lol.
Pretty much anything can be dated. There are multiple methods to date things and any scientist worth a penny could do it.
It's just bad writing. Very bad writing.

Previously unencountered technology benig "used" by the Geth who had not been seen outside the Veil for over 200 years. Its a safe enough assumption to make that its Geth.*

No.
Technologies and designs share certain properties. Tehre's no way you'll not be able to tel la human ship form an asari ship unpon closer inspection. And yet you assume repars and geth cna't be told apart? This is redicolous at hte most basic logical level. Two things that do not share the same properties cannot be the same. It's as simple as that.
Not to mention that you do run into geth trough whole on ME1 and ME2, so you kinda know what geth tech looks like.
Again, bad writing.

The nwe have the whole Ilos thing...the VI interfact? The prothean hybernation tubes? Waht, I know the VI lost power, but since when does loosing power destroy a a computer? Dont' tell me one can't recover any data from the hardware at all?

Shep's the only one who could understand it. By the time they work out how to safely fire it up without frying its circuits, Shep's dead.

Wut? IT's a computer. The data in it is not magicly gone just because power runs out.
And since when can only Sheppard understand it? Vigil was speaking in a format all your team members understood.

Or the "dead" reaper the Cerberus stumbled upon. Why keep it secret? There's the perfect proof of repaers right there!

Secret, pro-human ex-blackops** covert organisation remember, They want to keep any advancved tech for themselves, for their own agenda.

True, I cna understand removing the most interesting bits and getting a head start...But with hte Reapears coming, you'd think taht convincing hte galaxy of hte reaper threat would be more importnat.
Cerberus got hte idiot ball (again) because of bad writing.

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.
Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

Your lack of understanding and/or insight =/= plothole.

Unfortunatley, these are plot holes, not my lack of insight.

[roflchoppaz]

smudboy, I thought you were banned.

[sael_feman]

It is true TIM (The Illusive man) knows about the reapers, if he is in league with them is yet to be seen....he could be.

The Shadow Broker also knew about the reapers....with Liara as the new Shadow Broker hopefully in ME3 evidence could be sent to the Council.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

Or they just expected the players to be smart and figure that out on their own. Alas, that's clearly not the case.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:41 .

[CajNatalie]

When I saw this thread's title, the first thing that came in to my head was...
"Which one?"

XD

Both ME games are littered with plot holes, the second more than the first. They're still enjoyable to play so I generally just laugh them off.

[sael_feman]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.



Or they just expected the players to be smart and figure that out on theirs. Alas, that's clearly not the case.

The first conversation with the Alliance council will be amusing when we get our hands on ME3 in March 2011, the council will have to admit they were wrong in an embarrassing (amusing for me) moment.

[Someone With Mass]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, this is just poor writing. I cringe when I have to think about the plot holes and inconsistencies, but it is very real.

The idea of not spreading panic is bull****. Sovereign just stomped and lasered the **** out of the Citadel, and then his guts rained down upon trillions of survivors. And the council successfully concinvced them A) its not a reaper and its no longer a threat and everyone can resume their oblivious lifestyles.

You couldn't fly an unfamiliar plane across USA skies 10 years ago without citizens still talking about it today, there is no way you're going to calm the fears of trillions of aliens after a giant invasion. Its just poor writing to advance ME2's plot.

Millions...

[Mann42]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

Why would they trust Shepard enough to say that much when he is working for Cerberus, an organization they believe has plans to disrupt the Council? Shepard disappears for two years, believed dead, then reappears working for Cerberus. I wouldn't trust him with my plans to save the galaxy either, if I were analyzing things from their perspective. Admitting anything to Shepard and giving him any information about their plans or lack thereof is also admitting these things to Cerberus and giving them information that the Council most likely doesn't want them to have. 

While I'll agree that being railroaded into joining Cerberus, and the way it happened, was bad writing, I honestly don't see public disagreement by all of Shepard's former allies about the existence of the Reapers to be evidence that they don't believe it, especially when Shepard has become a pro-human terrorist (from their perspective). 

Just because we know that Shepard is the key to saving the galaxy doesn't mean it makes any sense for anyone else to believe that. That would be bad writing. Shepard's just one guy, and if the Council and the Alliance do believe in the Reapers, they have no reason or benefit to share that information with an unstable special forces officer that runs around spreading doomsday scenarios to the public, disappears for years, and then reappears as a terrorist. It would be completely out of character for real politicians or ones in a fictional world.

Modifié par nexworks, 20 juillet 2011 - 12:45 .