265 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In fact, the entire mission including the conversations with Saren on Virmire and at the Citadel, the conversation with Benezia, the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire got recorded by them.

If recording devices really were around, neither Sovereign or Saren would have been stupid enough to have those conversations. Benezia would reveal stuff at the end, so she'd have to just die without saying much

I beg to differ. If Sovereign kills Sheppard and blows Normandy away, no one is hte wiser. They can tell you all they want. Your recording it is rellevant only if you make it out alive.

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In fact, the entire mission including the conversations with Saren on Virmire and at the Citadel, the conversation with Benezia, the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire got recorded by them.

If recording devices really were around, neither Sovereign or Saren would have been stupid enough to have those conversations. Benezia would reveal stuff at the end, so she'd have to just die without saying much

I beg to differ. If Sovereign kills Sheppard and blows Normandy away, no one is hte wiser. They can tell you all they want. Your recording it is rellevant only if you make it out alive.

Sure, arrogance would work earlier. But after Shepard survives Virmire, you've just blown up the ME1 endgame. Well played, sir.

Eidt: I was trying to make ME1 work without a massive rewrite.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[littlezack]

There's also the possibility that, even if you have recording devices on the hardsuits, they're not always recording. When Shepard stumbled on Sovereign, his first thought probably wasn't to start recording things for future proof. Hell, he didn't even realize what he was talking to at first.

[Someone With Mass]

littlezack wrote...

There's also the possibility that, even if you have recording devices on the hardsuits, they're not always recording. When Shepard stumbled on Sovereign, his first thought probably wasn't to start recording things for future proof. Hell, he didn't even realize what he was talking to at first.

And I think those shields are already draining enough juice.

[SpiffySquee]

You know what? Let's say the suites DID record something. (never romanced Ash, so never heard that ) Let's say the suits DID record Sov on Vermire and Vigil. So what? What would that prove? The council stated they felt Saren was playing Shepard. Try to make him think the Reapers were real.  They could very easily dismiss a video tape of the recording of Sov becasue it was in Saren's base. Saren could have programed a hologram to say ANYTHING. Just because some red hologram says reapers are real, does not mean they are.

Same with Vigil. If all the council sees is a Hologram saying that it's prothean, that does not make it so. They would have to verify that. They would not say, "Oh, we have a video tape where the hologram said it was prothean, so it must be!"

That would be like a judge saying, "Hey, I have a video tape of a suspect killer saying he is innocent, so he must be!!" 

At most, the video tape would give them a good enough reason to try and verify the information. Which they tried to do. They couldn't. So now what?

They accepted tali's recording of Saren because they could verify that was HIS voice. We have voice identification software today. That would not do any good with Sov or Vigil. So what would recording really prove?

And As I said in another thread, the Asari councilor would never mind meld with an agent of Cerberus, or probably any Specter. They share thoughts, remember? Why would she want to give Shepard access to every secret known to the council? That would be crazy.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
In fact, the entire mission including the conversations with Saren on Virmire and at the Citadel, the conversation with Benezia, the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire got recorded by them.

If recording devices really were around, neither Sovereign or Saren would have been stupid enough to have those conversations. Benezia would reveal stuff at the end, so she'd have to just die without saying much

I beg to differ. If Sovereign kills Sheppard and blows Normandy away, no one is hte wiser. They can tell you all they want. Your recording it is rellevant only if you make it out alive.

I'd suggest the possibility that there was some kind of jamming signal interfering with any suit recording device, the possibility of such is alluded to on the Eden Prime mission. Since the first playthrough I've assumed that the effects mentioned by the hidden colonists were from the indoctrination effect but there's no reason that jamming the recording couldn't be a second effect. Given that the transmission suddenly turns to static it seems likely, if the soldier had been killed then the transmission could expect to have continued.

That would make sense in regards to the Virmire mission, they were attempting to replicate the indoctrination effect at that base and Shepard and friends were tromping around that particular lab section for awhile.

On Ilos, the conversation with Vigil is followed shortly by a Mako trip through a mass relay. Unlike vessels such as the Normandy, Makos isn't designed with that kind of journey in mind so there wouldn't be any effort to shield the interior from whatever energies are put out by journey. It's not unlikely that those energies could interfere with
whatever recordings were being made.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

But if you remember from Kasumi's loyalty mission that getting Mr. Hock to talk was enough just for her omnitool to make 22nd Century voice recognition software believe it was Hock saying "Perrugia". Who's to say that Tali couldn't have gotten hold of a long conversation of Saren talking, and the well known Matriarch Benezia and put together that exact "conversation"? You know that "evidence." They believed that recording, but wouldn't believe the other stuff? I seriously doubt it. I call major plot hole, or at least showing that the Council members are only of average intelligence (or less), which is about 100 and about 10 pts higher than a chimpanzee.

I would also bet that the Mako was pretty well shielded. Why wouldn't they protect the crew? And by 22nd Century standards as well. The Mako was designed for hostile environments which could also include radiation and intense electromagnetic energy. I just have trouble buying into that.

[Savber100]

One possible explanation in why the suit cameras won't work is that both Sovereign and Vigil were talking in their heads so that the camera would only reveal an image of Sovereign (which the Council would still assume a geth creation) and Vigil (again it doesn't point directly to Reapers).

Talking to Matriarch Be****a didn't reveal anything much about the Reapers so there was no damage there.

Modifié par Savber100, 24 juillet 2011 - 01:06 .

[SpiffySquee]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

But if you remember from Kasumi's loyalty mission that getting Mr. Hock to talk was enough just for her omnitool to make 22nd Century voice recognition software believe it was Hock saying "Perrugia". Who's to say that Tali couldn't have gotten hold of a long conversation of Saren talking, and the well known Matriarch Benezia and put together that exact "conversation"? You know that "evidence." They believed that recording, but wouldn't believe the other stuff? I seriously doubt it. I call major plot hole, or at least showing that the Council members are only of average intelligence (or less), which is about 100 and about 10 pts higher than a chimpanzee.

I would also bet that the Mako was pretty well shielded. Why wouldn't they protect the crew? And by 22nd Century standards as well. The Mako was designed for hostile environments which could also include radiation and intense electromagnetic energy. I just have trouble buying into that.

While I see your point about Kasumi, and I do feel Bioware could have used a more convincing argument against Saren,  there is a big difference between one word and an entire conversation between two different people. Even so, it is much easier to beleive in a Specter going Rogue than a mythical race of machines coming to kill us all.

Even with recordings, it is simply not enough evidence to convince even the average person of a fairy tale, much less get a government to act upon it. And it is not like the council just dismissed everything Shep said. The analyzed Sov. They went to Illos in search of Vigil. They tried to validate Shepard's story. There just was not enough evidence to do so. OJ Simpson had a crap load more evidence against him and he walked.... just saying...

[Lotion Soronarr]

SpiffySquee wrote...

You know what? Let's say the suites DID record something. (never romanced Ash, so never heard that ) Let's say the suits DID record Sov on Vermire and Vigil. So what? What would that prove? The council stated they felt Saren was playing Shepard. Try to make him think the Reapers were real.  They could very easily dismiss a video tape of the recording of Sov becasue it was in Saren's base. Saren could have programed a hologram to say ANYTHING. Just because some red hologram says reapers are real, does not mean they are.

Same with Vigil. If all the council sees is a Hologram saying that it's prothean, that does not make it so. They would have to verify that. They would not say, "Oh, we have a video tape where the hologram said it was prothean, so it must be!"

That would be like a judge saying, "Hey, I have a video tape of a suspect killer saying he is innocent, so he must be!!" 

At most, the video tape would give them a good enough reason to try and verify the information. Which they tried to do. They couldn't. So now what?

They accepted tali's recording of Saren because they could verify that was HIS voice. We have voice identification software today. That would not do any good with Sov or Vigil. So what would recording really prove?

And As I said in another thread, the Asari councilor would never mind meld with an agent of Cerberus, or probably any Specter. They share thoughts, remember? Why would she want to give Shepard access to every secret known to the council? That would be crazy.

Ashely specificly said that "we have out suit recordings" ...after Vimire. After talking to Sovy.

now, yes, one can say the reaper story is far fetched and hard to belive. But doens't that make it highly unlikely Saren would program a hologram to say something so unlikely? Sure if he wanted to throw people off his trail, he could have come up with something more easily believable.
The second problem is that it doesn't throw anyone of Sarens trail. If you desbelieve Sovy hologram, you just go after Saren as usual. If you do belive it, you'll jsut go after Saren with even more urgency than before!

Vigil. Vigil could easily be verified as beign Prothean. The recodring would confirm it was made on Ilos and any team sent to check would see prothean ruin, prothean equipment, and a hut-down prothean computer.


As for the mind-melding. You make a good point there. Unless therei s some control of the information flow, the Councilor wouldn't do it. BUT, there are plenty of other who could do it. the councilor can simply ask someone else (whom she trusts) to mind-meld and confirm everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
I'd suggest the possibility that there was some kind of jamming signal interfering with any suit recording device, the possibility of such is alluded to on the Eden Prime mission. Since the first playthrough I've assumed that the effects mentioned by the hidden colonists were from the indoctrination effect but there's no reason that jamming the recording couldn't be a second effect. Given that the transmission suddenly turns to static it seems likely, if the soldier had been killed then the transmission could expect to have continued.

Once can jam incoming/outgoing signals or transmissions.
One cannot really jam a video recording - you'd have to stop light and sound for it. You could try to fry thr equipment with a EM pulse, but military stuff is shielded agaisnt such thing, so you'd need a massively powerfull pulse for something..and we got nothing to hint something like that might have happened, especially since we know Sovy was not in vicinity while on Vimire.
And since Ashley stated after that mission that you have recordings..which would be seneless to say if those were destroyed.

[SpiffySquee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ashely specificly said that "we have out suit recordings" ...after Vimire. After talking to Sovy.

now, yes, one can say the reaper story is far fetched and hard to belive. But doens't that make it highly unlikely Saren would program a hologram to say something so unlikely? Sure if he wanted to throw people off his trail, he could have come up with something more easily believable.
The second problem is that it doesn't throw anyone of Sarens trail. If you desbelieve Sovy hologram, you just go after Saren as usual. If you do belive it, you'll jsut go after Saren with even more urgency than before!

Vigil. Vigil could easily be verified as beign Prothean. The recodring would confirm it was made on Ilos and any team sent to check would see prothean ruin, prothean equipment, and a hut-down prothean computer.


As for the mind-melding. You make a good point there. Unless therei s some control of the information flow, the Councilor wouldn't do it. BUT, there are plenty of other who could do it. the councilor can simply ask someone else (whom she trusts) to mind-meld and confirm everything.

Wait... Ash saying they have suit recording does end the debate (I asked for proof, and you submitted proof! ) But this doesn't solve anything. It means they DID take recording and would have submitted them in their reports. Does anyone besides Smudboy honestly feel that Shepard made recording and did NOT submit them in his reports? I stress that submitting a report suggests you gave the council all evidence at your disposal. This obviously still wasn't enough and why should it be?

You say that it is unlikely that Saren programmed the Hologram to mess with Shepard. Not really, since the Council already stated that Saren saw Shepard's reports and knew that Shepard believed in the reapers. The Council could easily beleive that Saren is trying to use this to his advantage to hide his true goals.Either way, it is a much more likely reason than mother goose coming to kick our collective backsides.

You guys have to stop thinking like gamers who know something bad is going to happen because it is a game and you know both sides of the story, and start thinking like a real person in the real world. If I came up to the U.S. senate and told them Robot Unicorns were coming to kill us all, how much proof do you think they would need? Do you think a video tape of a hologram telling me they are coming would be good enough? Hell, I could walk a robot unicorn right into the congress building and have him detail the plan, and most would think I was just pulling an elaborate prank.

They could take it apart and study it and a lot of Congress members would say, "Yes it is impressive, but the Japanese can do amazing things with Tech." A normal adult mind would have amazing difficulty grasping the idea that a fairy tale is real. Add to it, the fact that believing it is real means disrupting all of society, and I don't see why it is so hard to beleive they just don't beleive it, or are afraid to beleive it.

As for the mind meld, you have a point and I was about to give that one to you, but I remembered something. Those visions were a jumble. Even after the scifer... cifer... (however you spell that word) It took Liara, arguably the foremost expert in Prothean culture to be able to grasp the meaning. If a normal asari tried to understand the visions, they would probably just get what we got, a bunch of creepy images of someone's mouth... The point is that it took the combination of the vision, the scifer, AND Liara's expertise to explain the visions. The council would ahve to find an Asari that was as educated in Prothean culture as Liara (not sure if they exist) willing to do the mind meld, AND be someone the Council trusted enough to beleive them when they said Robot Unicorns were coming. Do you know of an Asari like that? Because I sure don't.

[Savber100]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ashely specificly said that "we have out suit recordings" ...after Vimire. After talking to Sovy.

now, yes, one can say the reaper story is far fetched and hard to belive. But doens't that make it highly unlikely Saren would program a hologram to say something so unlikely? Sure if he wanted to throw people off his trail, he could have come up with something more easily believable.
The second problem is that it doesn't throw anyone of Sarens trail. If you desbelieve Sovy hologram, you just go after Saren as usual. If you do belive it, you'll jsut go after Saren with even more urgency than before!

Vigil. Vigil could easily be verified as beign Prothean. The recodring would confirm it was made on Ilos and any team sent to check would see prothean ruin, prothean equipment, and a hut-down prothean computer.


As for the mind-melding. You make a good point there. Unless therei s some control of the information flow, the Councilor wouldn't do it. BUT, there are plenty of other who could do it. the councilor can simply ask someone else (whom she trusts) to mind-meld and confirm everything.

As for the mind meld, you have a point and I was about to give that one to you, but I remembered something. Those visions were a jumble. Even after the scifer... cifer... (however you spell that word) It took Liara, arguably the foremost expert in Prothean culture to be able to grasp the meaning. If a normal asari tried to understand the visions, they would probably just get what we got, a bunch of creepy images of someone's mouth... The point is that it took the combination of the vision, the scifer, AND Liara's expertise to explain the visions. The council would ahve to find an Asari that was as educated in Prothean culture as Liara (not sure if they exist) willing to do the mind meld, AND be someone the Council trusted enough to beleive them when they said Robot Unicorns were coming. Do you know of an Asari like that? Because I sure don't.

Bingo and who else would second Liara, who was only a teenager from a pureblood couple? Shepard? Garrus? Wrex? 

The vision would prove nothing had not all the elements that Shepard managed to witness miraclously meld together. The Councillors don't have this luxury and I won't be surprised if the Asari used the mumble jumble as proof of Shepard's so-called fragile mental state. 

Modifié par Savber100, 24 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[GunMoth]

I'm not sure if this was already said, but Carbon dating does not work on artifacts made entirely out of metal - only objects that contain C14.

Other methods of dating archaeologists use (I forget the term of this method - I'll grab my textbook if anyone wants me to cite my resources) require organic material - or rely on bones. (If you find a dead fish you can study a bone that is located in its ear to determine not only the age of the fish - but the environment and atmosphere that fish lived in. Its similar to dating by using tree rings.) A lot of the newer methods that are more accurate are also very circumstantial. :C

The reaper was obliterated in the attack - like Anderson stated. I doubt genetic / organic material would survive an explosion with a lot of firey flames.

Hope that helps?


EDIT: Also, even if there are other plot holes in terms of evidence and the council - I understand what they're trying to illustrate. Its easier to believe that a madman with too much power has attacked the citadel than it is to believe a monster from mythology is coming to devore organics.

I used this metaphor in another thread, but if a man piloting a private jet said that his jet was really Satan and that more legions of satanic/demonic jets would rain from the sky, while proceeding to drive the jet into the white house - people would assume that he was an insane religious fanatic. Or that he had other motives. 

Editedit: OH and if one of the soldiers / investigators stepped forward and claimed that the jet spoke to him and that he found an artifact left behind by the Mayans that predicted all of this - it would be chalked up to PTSD. 

Modifié par GunMoth, 24 juillet 2011 - 11:51 .

[Daddy Bags]

Paulinius wrote...

I love how they believe Shepard and his evidence about Saren which was just an easily fakeable recording but when he shows them a prothean world, the conduit, and sovereign they disregard it.

Makes perfect sense.

Excellent point. Good to see Bioware thought this one through.

[SpiffySquee]

Daddy Bags wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

I love how they believe Shepard and his evidence about Saren which was just an easily fakeable recording but when he shows them a prothean world, the conduit, and sovereign they disregard it.

Makes perfect sense.

Excellent point. Good to see Bioware thought this one through.

Not an excellent point at all

"Hey, I have a recording of a killer admitting to the crime" is a lot easier to believe than "Hey, I have a video tape of robot unicorns coming to kill us all."