265 réponses à ce sujet

[Core_Commander]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I agree marshalleck, but for slightly different reasons (or those he did not state).

Good writing does not leave this much room open to interpretation. Good writing cannot be so easily argued on the interwebs - where, everything can be argued.

That isn't to say that the "meaning" of a story - or the "character" of the Protagonist could not be argued about endlessly... but the dialogue should be concise, to the point, and reveal the truth behind the NPCs' thoughts (which we cannot know).

Now you're smudboying it up a bit. classical rules of writing are there, but it doesn't mean that bending, or indeed breaking them now and another is always bad.

ME was originally thought up as a trilogy, thus it it acceptable to explain motivations of characters, especially secondary or tertiary like the Council, in the concluding game rather than giving hints of what the characters are thinking... rather than in the whopping 60 seconds of interaction you get with their holograms in ME2.

Occam's razor has more than one blade: you can use the paradigm "it's bad writing", like Smudboy likes to do... but you could as well go for "Council is in denial" (unlikely, but not unheard of when a prosperous empire is about to fall)... or "they don't trust Shepard and are keeping him in the dark because he's a loose cannon", which does a fairly good job of explaining their motivations as well - especially if the realization of the Reaper threat had made them a bit paranoid.

Those beings govern trillions of lives, could they do it if they had their hearts on hand all the time?

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:07 .

[Beerfish]

So because large government entities say they don't beleive in something means that they are being honest? If so our world and our governments are all one big plot hole.

[Lotion Soronarr]

nexworks wrote...

Why would they trust Shepard enough to say that much when he is working for Cerberus, an organization they believe has plans to disrupt the Council? Shepard disappears for two years, believed dead, then reappears working for Cerberus. I wouldn't trust him with my plans to save the galaxy either, if I were analyzing things from their perspective. Admitting anything to Shepard and giving him any information about their plans or lack thereof is also admitting these things to Cerberus and giving them information that the Council most likely doesn't want them to have. 

While I'll agree that being railroaded into joining Cerberus, and the way it happened, was bad writing, I honestly don't see public disagreement by all of Shepard's former allies about the existence of the Reapers to be evidence that they don't believe it, especially when Shepard has become a pro-human terrorist (from their perspective). 

Just because we know that Shepard is the key to saving the galaxy doesn't mean it makes any sense for anyone else to believe that. That would be bad writing. Shepard's just one guy, and if the Council and the Alliance do believe in the Reapers, they have no reason or benefit to share that information with an unstable special forces officer that runs around spreading doomsday scenarios to the public, disappears for years, and then reappears as a terrorist. It would be completely out of character for real politicians or ones in a fictional world.

a) if they dont' trust Sheppard, why give him back Specter status?
Shepard knows about the reapers. If he's wokring for Cerberus, then Cerberus knows too.

In short, it makes no sense to pretend Reapers don't exist in front of Sheppard - even moreso since hteir mere existence is not super-sensitive information that would doom teh Council if Cerberus got their hands on it.


EDIT:
Interestingly that Admiral Hackett (in Arrival) admits the Cerberus is the only ones trying to do something about the Reapers and the state of the galaxy.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Helm505 wrote...

The Council also could be wary of admitting to Shepard that the Reapers are real for fear that Shepard would use a recording of that admission to try to rally public support. Shepard is a loose cannon, and he's a loose cannon who could theoretically have one of those black-box things that allows the recording of memories and can display them on a screen.

A recoder like that would have come in mighty handy with all those talks with Sovereign, Harbringer and Saren. Really...you'd think the Omni-Tool could record such stuff. Yet shep never thinks of turning it on to get some evidence....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Technologies and designs share certain properties. Tehre's no way you'll not be able to tel la human ship form an asari ship unpon closer inspection. And yet you assume repars and geth cna't be told apart? This is redicolous at hte most basic logical level. Two things that do not share the same properties cannot be the same. It's as simple as that.
Not to mention that you do run into geth trough whole on ME1 and ME2, so you kinda know what geth tech looks like.
Again, bad writing.

Normany SR1 case in point. Take it into Geth space, have it blown it to bits and what will the Geth discover. Some bits look Turian, some look human. Which, exactly, is it?

Human. As it is primarily human designed, made to accomodate humans.
No problem to determine it whatsoever.

Wut? IT's a computer. The data in it is not magicly gone just because power runs out.
And since when can only Sheppard understand it? Vigil was speaking in a format all your team members understood.

Ever had a power outage while working on a computer? Anything stored in the swap file that had not yet been writen to disk, as well as anything stored in RAM gets wiped.
Any and all connection to said computer, wouldhave had marknigs written in the Prothean language, and while there would have been experts available to read it, they would have only a general grasp of it, the same way even our experts only have a general grasp of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics.

You saying Protheans don't have any hard-data storage? That all of it is in RAM and nothing on something like a hard-disk?

True, I cna understand removing the most interesting bits and getting a head start...But with hte Reapears coming, you'd think taht convincing hte galaxy of hte reaper threat would be more importnat.
Cerberus got hte idiot ball (again) because of bad writing.

Humans saved the day the first time, and got a lot of respect and authority from the deal. Save the day again, with bigger and better weaponry, and get lots more respoect, and possibly control of the galactic government.

And risk the entire universe nad humanity in the process? TIM isn't that dumb man.
Humanity can still have bigger and better weaponry by removing the most interesting bits from the reaper corpse and forking over the rest.

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lol.
Pretty much anything can be dated. There are multiple methods to date things and any scientist worth a penny could do it.
It's just bad writing. Very bad writing.

How are they going to date a completely unknown type of metal? They almost certainly have nothing comparable to match it against, unless the process of melting down organic creatures to make construction materials is more widespread in the ME universe than I've been lead to believe.

Previously unencountered technology benig "used" by the Geth who had not been seen outside the Veil for over 200 years. Its a safe enough assumption to make that its Geth.*

No.
Technologies and designs share certain properties. Tehre's no way you'll not be able to tel la human ship form an asari ship unpon closer inspection. And yet you assume repars and geth cna't be told apart? This is redicolous at hte most basic logical level. Two things that do not share the same properties cannot be the same. It's as simple as that.
Not to mention that you do run into geth trough whole on ME1 and ME2, so you kinda know what geth tech looks like.
Again, bad writing.

Cosmetic differences aren't as important as you make out, especially to the geth who show little interest in the aesthetics of their designs. If a prototype warship were designed for a unique purpose, and assembled with a unique material, there's no reason it couldn't look like something completely unlike other geth vessels.

Shep's the only one who could understand it. By the time they work out how to safely fire it up without frying its circuits, Shep's dead.

Wut? IT's a computer. The data in it is not magicly gone just because power runs out.
And since when can only Sheppard understand it? Vigil was speaking in a format all your team members understood.

Prothean technology is depicted as being very different from the technology that contemporary races use, there's no reason to suppose that the computer programming that they used would be compatible with the devices and programs used by species who developed largely independent from prothean technological paths.

It is entirely possible that a power surge, or even simple wearing out of the hardware, could destroy or corrupt the data that Vigil controls. Even if the data is still retrievable, the technology remains completely alien and if it took more than two years to figure out how to repower the machine it would not be a surprise. 

True, I cna understand removing the most interesting bits and getting a head start...But with hte Reapears coming, you'd think taht convincing hte galaxy of hte reaper threat would be more importnat.
Cerberus got hte idiot ball (again) because of bad writing.

The Council, including Udina, does acknowledge the Reaper threat at the end of ME1, backsliding with no explanation is sloppy writing.

My own explanation would be to compare their initial response to the hysteria following the WTC attack, for some time afterwards people still seemed to be acting in a panic and going along with ideas and plans that they never would have supported before the attacks and in many cases have come to regret supporting after the panic wore off. It's not a canon explanation, it may not even be a convincing one, but it lets me shrug and keep playing instead of beating my head against a wall whenver I talk to the council.

[Mister Mida]

Concerning the matter with the Council, I think a lot of people will be unpleasantly surprised when they play ME3 and find the Council was indeed in denial all along, never bothered with the Reapers at all, and need us to save their sorry ass. Of course there is a possibility that the Council is indeed lying to you and are building forces and preparing ever since the Battle of the Citadel. But personally, I don't see enough evidence to be fully convinced that they're just lying to you for being with Cerberus.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:24 .

[Core_Commander]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
a) if they dont' trust Sheppard, why give him back Specter status?
Shepard knows about the reapers. If he's wokring for Cerberus, then Cerberus knows too.

In short, it makes no sense to pretend Reapers don't exist in front of Sheppard - even moreso since hteir mere existence is not super-sensitive information that would doom teh Council if Cerberus got their hands on it.

EDIT:
Interestingly that Admiral Hackett (in Arrival) admits the Cerberus is the only ones trying to do something about the Reapers and the state of the galaxy.

a) the moment Shepard arrives at the Citadel he's an enigma. Keep your friends close, and your (potential) enemies closer. Their alternatives would be arrest him (blocked by human Councilor, political ****storm incoming) or let him go altogether (losing out on... well, Commander Shepard, if he's telling the truth - and which they have no way of knowing).

Seriously, they don't even see you in person, even though the Presidium is wholly fixed. It's not like they can't spare 60 seconds for a (former or not) Spectre.... The only explanation is that they fear Shep could gun them down IF he's brainwashed/control chipped/indoctrinated.

so they already know - not much Council can do at that point besides telling him "keep out of the Council space (and be grateful to us)". Who's to say they don't have a dozen Spectres investigating Cerberus activities right then?

Hackett... is merely an Alliance admiral. Not exactly privy to Council secrets, especially with humanity being the least trusted Council member.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Gee, I dunno, maybe they didnt find any bits that contained any carbon?

Not to mention, even if Sovvy was carbon-rich, radiocarbon dating would be utterly useless anyway.  It's based on the rate of C14 production in Earth's atmosphere (which in turn is dependent on Earth's atmospheric composition) and the fact that uptake rates in plants cause their levels of the isotope to more or less match atmospheric levels.  I'm sure you can spot some of the problems w/ carbon dating Sovvy (a few of these have already been touched on):

Was the carbon taken from a planet?  Multiple planets?  Did they even have biospheres?  What were the rates of C14 production on these worlds?  How exactly was the C14 getting into these biospheres, if indeed they existed?  Did any of those organisms have some biochemical quirk that skewed their C14 ratio way up or way down compared to typically expected levels on those worlds? What amount of variation in C14 levels over time exists on these worlds?  What about variations due to location at any specific time? What, if any, factors in the manufacturing processes involved in the creation of Sovereign could affect C14 levels? So on, So forth.

Many similar concerns deriving from the unknown provenance of the materials and ignorance of the manufacturing techniques also make dating via other radioisotopes more than a little problematic.

Sovy isnb't made from unobtanium. He's made from materials of which at least some are known, if not all.
And he's a starship..so you'd be looking at C14 half-life IN SPACE...Something that any space-faring species should be aware of.
not to mention that this is the future, so the galaxy probably has even mroe advanced methods of dating. I find hte notion that Sovereign cannot be dated - when mass relays and everything else can - laughable.

[Veex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Good writing does not leave this much room open to interpretation. Good writing cannot be so easily argued on the interwebs - where, everything can be argued.

That isn't to say that the "meaning" of a story - or the "character" of the Protagonist could not be argued about endlessly... but the dialogue should be concise, to the point, and reveal the truth behind the NPCs' thoughts (which we cannot know).

You'll have to pardon me for disagreeing, but entire professions exist to do nothing but debate the motives and thoughts of characters in literature. Interpretation is an extremely common proponent of writing in any medium, video game or otherwise. You can certainly assert that you value a more straight forward, illicit narrative, but assigning it a value is just a matter of personal preference.

I'm of the opinion that dialogue in particular should vary as wildly as possible, lest you have a collection of characters "speaking" in concise, transparent tones. That doesn't make my preference better or worse than yours of course, but the fact that we can discuss the motive and personality of characters in Mass Effect is a positive for me, not a negative. 

[Someone With Mass]

Goneaviking wrote...

How are they going to date a completely unknown type of metal? They almost certainly have nothing comparable to match it against, unless the process of melting down organic creatures to make construction materials is more widespread in the ME universe than I've been lead to believe.

Just to add to it: They've been trying to get mineral samples of mass relays for a very long time without any success. Hell, they even let their ships shoot at the damn things without getting as much as a crumb to analyze. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

DadeLeviathan wrote...

Yeah, as much as I love the series, Mass Effect has a massive amount of plot holes. However, many of those plot holes can be explained as, "Without that plot hole, we wouldn't have a story." So I am content to overlook most of them to a certain extent.

What you should be asking is "Can I have an interesting story without this plot hole?"

[Jenaimarre]

Jenaimarre wrote...

Pretty sure this has been said before. The council told Shepard that they found nothing to suggest that Sovereign could not have been built by the Geth. Whether they lied to Shepard or not remains to be seen, and I am certain we will find out in ME3.

shamelessly quoting myself.

[Robhuzz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In the ME series asa whole?

amnely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.
Not to mention that  it should be pretty obvious that it's not geth, as all geth share some similarities and it should have been more than obvious after studying the remain, that the ship is FAR more advanced than anytihng the geth ever demonstrated, and it has different design and tech.

Have you considered the fact that the council does, in fact, know Sovereign was a Reaper yet just deny it in the hopes it blows over. They (especially the Asari) are really proud they have a galacatic community that's stable (in their eyes, namely by ignoring every threat) and they wouldn't want to see this disturbed by the Reaper threat now would they? Add to this that Asari and Salarians seem to be pacifists and both unwilling and unable to fight a proper war and it's much easier to just deny the threat...

[Core_Commander]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Sovy isnb't made from unobtanium. He's made from materials of which at least some are known, if not all.
And he's a starship..so you'd be looking at C14 half-life IN SPACE...Something that any space-faring species should be aware of.
not to mention that this is the future, so the galaxy probably has even mroe advanced methods of dating. I find hte notion that Sovereign cannot be dated - when mass relays and everything else can - laughable.

Mass relays can be dated from "comparing samples of space dust trapped within their gravity well with space dust of the nebula they were in". Any other method had failed.

If you'd want to do it same way, then a) bits and pieces of Sovereign don't really have much gravity well to them, and which nebula would you compare it to?

Most things in fantasy (and soft SF like Mass Effect are simply that, space fantasy) can be related to "real world", but some just are the way they're written and explicitly told to us. Even Mass Relays and Eezo don't make a sliver of sense as far as real physics goes... Deal with it.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Core_Commander wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
a) if they dont' trust Sheppard, why give him back Specter status?

a) the moment Shepard arrives at the Citadel he's an enigma. Keep your friends close, and your (potential) enemies closer. Their alternatives would be arrest him (blocked by human Councilor, political ****storm incoming) or let him go altogether (losing out on... well, Commander Shepard, if he's telling the truth - and which they have no way of knowing).

Seriously, they don't even see you in person, even though the Presidium is wholly fixed. It's not like they can't spare 60 seconds for a (former or not) Spectre.... The only explanation is that they fear Shep could gun them down IF he's brainwashed/control chipped/indoctrinated.

So you give hte person you dont' trust complete freedom to move and to act above the law and with no restrictions? Geniuos!

And the only explanation? Lol..no. Maybe they were away.. and didnt want to walk all the way. The Citadel is friggin huge. Not even in ME1 did they always talk to you in person.

[Core_Commander]

(accidental double post)

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Sovy isnb't made from unobtanium. He's made from materials of which at least some are known, if not all.
And he's a starship..so you'd be looking at C14 half-life IN SPACE...Something that any space-faring species should be aware of.
not to mention that this is the future, so the galaxy probably has even mroe advanced methods of dating. I find hte notion that Sovereign cannot be dated - when mass relays and everything else can - laughable.

Oh, wait. You're serious.

Do you really think that all the materials anywhere in space would have the exact same properties and origins?

[dryz]

you gotta think too that if the keepers work for the reapers when sovergn was destroyed the keepers would of went for any important parts and even if the council managed to get anything the keepers would just take it back.

Also the reaper in 2 was made from human "material" maybe sovergn was made from geth.

Modifié par dryz, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

How are they going to date a completely unknown type of metal? They almost certainly have nothing comparable to match it against, unless the process of melting down organic creatures to make construction materials is more widespread in the ME universe than I've been lead to believe.

Starships are complex machines. They are not made out of 1 type of material. You will find something you can date. The periodic table of element is a rather ordered and predictable thing.

Just to add to it: They've been trying to get mineral samples of mass relays for a very long time without any success. Hell, they even let their ships shoot at the damn things without getting as much as a crumb to analyze.

"Mass relays are believed to be indestructible by galactic society, but there have been no known attempts to test that theory."

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Core_Commander: It's not that the rules can't be broken - it's that it should be done "At your own risk." as a creator of anything.

Look at all the arguments on these boards. Kaidan/Ashley "Bi" - Cerberus always fails (or is evil) - Council is inept - Garrus still calibrating! - etc. etc.

On one hand - it keeps the life of the game going by causing conversation. But on the other - it could reveal a level of lazy writing, and cause a serious disconnect with a great deal of its audience.

I can criticize something I enjoy - and I enjoyed ME 2 more than ME 1 (but not as much as DA: O) - but enjoying it doesn't mean I believe it to be flawless.

Mass Effects story - I feel, it's good to very good - but it's dialogue is poor to average.

This is the problem with a great deal of video games (and yes, since it always needs to be said, this is opinion) - dialogue is axed for cost and more "pew pew" - that's a shame, and I hope that someday this trend changes.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .

[Vamp44]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

It needs the picture to complete it.....
_________________________________________________
But, generally I just ignore the plot holes if the game is entertaining me. Which Mass Effect is.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

"Mass relays are believed to be indestructible by galactic society, but there have been no known attempts to test that theory."

So much for that argument...

[dryz]

im no scientist but wouldnt carbon dating work differently in the infinate vacume of space i mean half life testing is based on material breaking down over set time in set conditions, while in space there is no enviroment so how would material break down?

[The Flame Knight]

As I recall, in ME1, the Asari Council member wanted to believe you, but was unable to take actions without proof. It's all about politics, basically. The way I look at it, one or more of the Council members might believe that the Reapers exist, but definite proof was lacking. Additionally, Shepard was working with Cerberus. The Council might not be as forthcoming with you given this fact. Lastly, the Alliance was studying Reapers in secret in Arrival. What makes you think that other species, Council or otherwise, might not be doing the same thing?

Modifié par The Flame Knight, 20 juillet 2011 - 03:50 .