265 réponses à ce sujet

[LeVaughnX]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In the ME series asa whole?

amnely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.
Not to mention that  it should be pretty obvious that it's not geth, as all geth share some similarities and it should have been more than obvious after studying the remain, that the ship is FAR more advanced than anytihng the geth ever demonstrated, and it has different design and tech.


The nwe have the whole Ilos thing...the VI interfact? The prothean hybernation tubes? Waht, I know the VI lost power, but since when does loosing power destroy a a computer? Dont' tell me one can't recover any data from the hardware at all?

Or the "dead" reaper the Cerberus stumbled upon. Why keep it secret? There's the perfect proof of repaers right there!

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.
Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

I would have tried to communicate with you but instead I'll say this...

SPELL CHECK MOTHER FU*KER DO YOU HAVE IT?!!?!?!?!


But in all seriousness Mass Effect is just like real-life. No one believes in the Reapers in ME and basically screws Shepard -- just how in real life we ignore major problems with the world and focus on pandering to the idiots.

[Core_Commander]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Core_Commander: It's not that the rules can't be broken - it's that it should be done "At your own risk." as a creator of anything.

Look at all the arguments on these boards. Kaidan/Ashley "Bi" - Cerberus always fails (or is evil) - Council is inept - Garrus still calibrating! - etc. etc.

On one hand - it keeps the life of the game going by causing conversation. But on the other - it could reveal a level of lazy writing, and cause a serious disconnect with a great deal of its audience.

I can criticize something I enjoy - and I enjoyed ME 2 more than ME 1 (but not as much as DA: O) - but enjoying it doesn't mean I believe it to be flawless.

Mass Effects story - I feel, it's good to very good - but it's dialogue is poor to average.

This is the problem with a great deal of video games (and yes, since it always needs to be said, this is opinion) - dialogue is axed for cost and more "pew pew" - that's a shame, and I hope that someday this trend changes.

Funny, I always thought ME story is mediocre to OK ("Babylon 5 by way of KotOR" for ME1, endless exposition connectedy by spaghetti thin plot for ME2), but was carried nicely by entertaining dialogue, cool characters and a couple nice plot twists... to each their own.

All in all, I've had great fun as well, and if ME3 manages to solve the Reaper conundrum in an even slightly believable way (Reapers are hyped just slightly less than Lost and DNF put together, going to be tough to meet expectations without retconning and end in anything other than a huge dinner)... while keeping similar immersion values as previous games, I'll be satisfied.

[Tonymac]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Sovy isnb't made from unobtanium. He's made from materials of which at least some are known, if not all.
And he's a starship..so you'd be looking at C14 half-life IN SPACE...Something that any space-faring species should be aware of.
not to mention that this is the future, so the galaxy probably has even mroe advanced methods of dating. I find hte notion that Sovereign cannot be dated - when mass relays and everything else can - laughable.

Oh, wait. You're serious.

Do you really think that all the materials anywhere in space would have the exact same properties and origins?

I hate to be like this man, because almost all of what I see you post is legit.

Hydrogen is Hydrogen.  It exists in every single star , in every single galaxy in all of the visible universe - and it is all hydrogen.  Thats why elements are elements -  they ARE the same everywhere.  Ever seen an asteroid that landed on Earth?  Many are made of Iron - Iron most likely from a supernova that occured millions of years ago.  And its still iron.  Regular old iron.  As a side note  - there is also no way we know of to verify its age.

The biggest issues you run into of 'fantastic' finds are the ones we find nowadays in colliders - which are pushing the energy levels of where matter is actually created and broken down - such as in the heart of a star or even a black hole.  Those are the only places in the natural universe that high enough energy levels exist to tear apart normal matter.  Thats why some of the ultra heavy elements we find with colliders nowadays only exist for a few millionths of a second - because we cannot sustain the energy levels of a massive star.  What we do is rush them around a giant track with magnets and smash them onto eachother.  You get the energy of the collision, but only briefly - whereas in stars the energy levels are able to sustain for millions of years.

I know that we are discussing science in order to shed light on an imaginary (science fiction) universe, but if we are going to stick to physics - then lets do so.

[Iakus]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

Or they just expected the players to be smart and figure that out on their own. Alas, that's clearly not the case.

Or take the middle road and have the Council just say 

"It's being dealt with.  You don't need to know any more.  Say hi to the Illusive Man for us"

[Core_Commander]

Tonymac wrote...
I hate to be like this man, because almost all of what I see you post is legit.

Hydrogen is Hydrogen.  It exists in every single star , in every single galaxy in all of the visible universe - and it is all hydrogen.  Thats why elements are elements -  they ARE the same everywhere.  Ever seen an asteroid that landed on Earth?  Many are made of Iron - Iron most likely from a supernova that occured millions of years ago.  And its still iron.  Regular old iron.  As a side note  - there is also no way we know of to verify its age.

The biggest issues you run into of 'fantastic' finds are the ones we find nowadays in colliders - which are pushing the energy levels of where matter is actually created and broken down - such as in the heart of a star or even a black hole.  Those are the only places in the natural universe that high enough energy levels exist to tear apart normal matter.  Thats why some of the ultra heavy elements we find with colliders nowadays only exist for a few millionths of a second - because we cannot sustain the energy levels of a massive star.  What we do is rush them around a giant track with magnets and smash them onto eachother.  You get the energy of the collision, but only briefly - whereas in stars the energy levels are able to sustain for millions of years.

I know that we are discussing science in order to shed light on an imaginary (science fiction) universe, but if we are going to stick to physics - then lets do so.

I heard Physics got out on Eezo stop. There's only impenetrable Citadel hull, non-researchable relays and bases in the middle of Galactic Core on this bus, sorry <_<.

[Twizz089]

Are people not allowed to change their minds about things? Maybe the council accepted the reapers were reapers out of fear. But after the attack there is no evidence to back that claim. After the attack what do we have? What evidence does Shep have to back his claims? An ancient ship that was half destroyed and cleaned up by the keepers very quickly? Even if they had enough of it to test all they could prove was that it was an old piece of tech. They couldnt prove it was a reaper. What about the encounters with the reaper? Oh wait.. only you heard that. So after the attack there was nothing to back the claims. Geth finding ancient tech is more belivable then a race of giant robots coming to the galaxy ever X amount of years killing everything then vanishing.

[fivefingaslap18]

Core_Commander wrote...

Tonymac wrote...
I hate to be like this man, because almost all of what I see you post is legit.

Hydrogen is Hydrogen.  It exists in every single star , in every single galaxy in all of the visible universe - and it is all hydrogen.  Thats why elements are elements -  they ARE the same everywhere.  Ever seen an asteroid that landed on Earth?  Many are made of Iron - Iron most likely from a supernova that occured millions of years ago.  And its still iron.  Regular old iron.  As a side note  - there is also no way we know of to verify its age.

The biggest issues you run into of 'fantastic' finds are the ones we find nowadays in colliders - which are pushing the energy levels of where matter is actually created and broken down - such as in the heart of a star or even a black hole.  Those are the only places in the natural universe that high enough energy levels exist to tear apart normal matter.  Thats why some of the ultra heavy elements we find with colliders nowadays only exist for a few millionths of a second - because we cannot sustain the energy levels of a massive star.  What we do is rush them around a giant track with magnets and smash them onto eachother.  You get the energy of the collision, but only briefly - whereas in stars the energy levels are able to sustain for millions of years.

I know that we are discussing science in order to shed light on an imaginary (science fiction) universe, but if we are going to stick to physics - then lets do so.

I heard Physics got out on Eezo stop. There's only impenetrable Citadel hull, non-researchable relays and bases in the middle of Galactic Core on this bus, sorry <_<.

It's like this, you know for the most part the physics in the world work properly. Then, there is this one little thing called science fiction, where they use element x or substance unobtanium to create cool **** like hyperspace to not make the long travel from one system to the next totatlly sad because it would take a couple hundred or thousands of years in real time to do so.

Yeah, kind of like that because of our limited knowledge with science applied to higher forms of astrophysics. We're doing all of this theory without any environment testing in space... that sort of problem.

[tobynator89]

There are no limits to what world leaders can delude themselves to believe if they want it bad enough. The name arthur neville chamberlain rears its head in particular.

Modifié par tobynator89, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[Medhia Nox]

Well, to be fair - if science fiction tried very very hard to be science fact - you would never have any of these tales.

Real space travel will likely be 99% hard work - 1% "galactic adventure" for a good LONG time. And forget about colonizing - unless a genuinely habitable planet is found, which will then require us to get to it - which, currently, is not possible.

[fivefingaslap18]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Well, to be fair - if science fiction tried very very hard to be science fact - you would never have any of these tales.

Real space travel will likely be 99% hard work - 1% "galactic adventure" for a good LONG time. And forget about colonizing - unless a genuinely habitable planet is found, which will then require us to get to it - which, currently, is not possible.

That is if we were even lucky to have found it first. Otherwise, we either leave that civilization alone, or we blast them to the ground. That's usually how colonization would go about.

[BS Veyron]

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. When Sovvy shows up hes flanked by the Geth. You cant really blame people for believing what they see over what you say. Anderson also mentions that they did not collect much of Sovvy's wreckage because the Keepers got to it first and were quick with its clean up.

[fivefingaslap18]

BS Veyron wrote...

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. 

Umm... Reaper IFF anyone?

[Medhia Nox]

I think they should have made the Citadel battle more clear... there are still people who believe that Sovereign alone endangered the Citadel and destroyed the Alliance/Turian fleets... and threatened to wipe out the Council.

The thing had an entire army with it...

[Core_Commander]

fivefingaslap18 wrote...
It's like this, you know for the most part the physics in the world work properly. Then, there is this one little thing called science fiction, where they use element x or substance unobtanium to create cool **** like hyperspace to not make the long travel from one system to the next totatlly sad because it would take a couple hundred or thousands of years in real time to do so.

Yeah, kind of like that because of our limited knowledge with science applied to higher forms of astrophysics. We're doing all of this theory without any environment testing in space... that sort of problem.

Well, my point is this: people swallow up Eezo, Dark Energy, Citadel, Relays... but then when it comes to Reapers they start clamoring about using the current, arguably flawed coal method to judge their age, because "it should be possible! it works!". Now... if Citadel's age cannot be gauged, and so do the Relays, why should bits and pieces of a Reaper be different in that regard? Why should an alien system be salvagable after we've been told it's not operational?

You cannot just apply a broad Real World/Physics themed hammer to a fantasy universe and expect it to fix everything, or "everything except one or two things, but not three". Reapers not reacting to tests in predictable manners isn't harder to swallow than biotics, as far as ME convention goes.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 04:46 .

[fivefingaslap18]

Geth ships were easier to take down. Sovereign took out most of the fleets by itself (y'know what, I'm not even going to call it a him because it wants to be known so badly as an A.I. that he deserves the title itself... wait, ******!).

[TuringPoint]

At worst, I consider this "plot hole" an example of a forced situation which is supposed to annoy you and make you more invested in Shepard's cause.

I think, mostly, it's a case of the devs and writers not fully explaining certain details of the plot, as they have it in their head.  Mind that's just a hypothesis.

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.

Don't look too closely, because more you look into lore, more holes and mistakes you recover.
Just have fun with the game..

[fivefingaslap18]

Core_Commander wrote...

fivefingaslap18 wrote...
It's like this, you know for the most part the physics in the world work properly. Then, there is this one little thing called science fiction, where they use element x or substance unobtanium to create cool **** like hyperspace to not make the long travel from one system to the next totatlly sad because it would take a couple hundred or thousands of years in real time to do so.

Yeah, kind of like that because of our limited knowledge with science applied to higher forms of astrophysics. We're doing all of this theory without any environment testing in space... that sort of problem.

Well, my point is this: people swallow up Eezo, Dark Energy, Citadel, Relays... but then when it comes to Reapers they start clamoring about using the current, arguably flawed coal method to judge their age, because "it should be possible! it works!". Now... if Citadel's age cannot be gauged, and so do the Relays, why should bits and pieces of a Reaper be different in that regard? Why should an alien system be salvagable after we've been told it's not operational?

You cannot just apply a broad Real World/Physics themed hammer to a fantasy universe and expect it to fix everything, or "everything except one or two things, but not three". Reapers not reacting to tests in predictable manners isn't harder to swallow than biotics, as far as ME convention goes.

You can try, but it usually won't work because our science is not based around the science of the time period. More than likely they probably went to a different dating method because carbon dating is probably to innacurate and/or more energy consuming. Thus it would be useless to do so, unless of course they couldn't properly date it with their equipment and had to go back to it.

However, more importantly I think that it is possible the Reapers used different elements as they travel all the way out into dark space. All we know is that they could potentially go to other galaxies and it might be possible that in those galaxies there are different elements. They could have littered the Milky Way with stuff that couldn't be dated with their tech to make their plan undetectable. Who knows really.

[Medhia Nox]

@Core_Commander - you didn't say this, but you made me think of it. There are WAY too many Biotics in ME. I don't mind them - I play as an Adept, but everywhere you turn... "I've got biotics!"

I think it would have been slightly more interesting if they had suggested "Eezo" develops inside living cells after prolonged exposure to a certain type of radiation that doesn't get through biospheres... blah blah... etc. blah.

Pretty soon we'll have Cerberus saying: "Biotics exist to serve man, not control him."

===

@fivefingerslap18: I don't agree... that wasn't the impression I got at all. Sovereign looked like he was fornicating with the Citadel spire while the Geth fought the war of screen.

[fivefingaslap18]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@fivefingerslap18: I don't agree... that wasn't the impression I got at all. Sovereign looked like he was fornicating with the Citadel spire while the Geth fought the war of screen.

True, but the geth wouldn't have invaded unless Sovereign did. Either way it was done by Sovereign's hand.

[Il Divo]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

Because when Shepard was trying to prove Saren a traitor, it was a voice-recording which brought him down.What does the Council have to gain by admitting to Shepard (in private) that they believe in the Reapers? Ken/Gabby elaborate on how they backpedaled on the Reaper threat, trying to avoid a panic. It's not even clear if the Council does believe in Reapers at this point.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

BS Veyron wrote...

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. When Sovvy shows up hes flanked by the Geth. You cant really blame people for believing what they see over what you say. Anderson also mentions that they did not collect much of Sovvy's wreckage because the Keepers got to it first and were quick with its clean up.

Sovereign is a SPACE SHIP. Iit's parts are floating IN SPACE..with a few fallen on the citadel. And it's a HUGE space ship.

You can't really honestly expect me to read that explanation with a straight face?
Keepers moving frigate-sized pieces without anyone noticing? Keepers going out in space suits to collect Soveregins parts before anyone else could get them?
No...just...no.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Core_Commander wrote...

fivefingaslap18 wrote...
It's like this, you know for the most part the physics in the world work properly. Then, there is this one little thing called science fiction, where they use element x or substance unobtanium to create cool **** like hyperspace to not make the long travel from one system to the next totatlly sad because it would take a couple hundred or thousands of years in real time to do so.

Yeah, kind of like that because of our limited knowledge with science applied to higher forms of astrophysics. We're doing all of this theory without any environment testing in space... that sort of problem.

Well, my point is this: people swallow up Eezo, Dark Energy, Citadel, Relays... but then when it comes to Reapers they start clamoring about using the current, arguably flawed coal method to judge their age, because "it should be possible! it works!". Now... if Citadel's age cannot be gauged, and so do the Relays, why should bits and pieces of a Reaper be different in that regard? Why should an alien system be salvagable after we've been told it's not operational?

You cannot just apply a broad Real World/Physics themed hammer to a fantasy universe and expect it to fix everything, or "everything except one or two things, but not three". Reapers not reacting to tests in predictable manners isn't harder to swallow than biotics, as far as ME convention goes.

Given everything else we know about the universe? No.

Didn't Cerberus determine the derelict reaper was hit 37 million years ago or something?

And b.t.w - there is a difference between good science fiction and bad science fiction. Good one is concistent  internally and has little plot holes.

Personally, I consider the we cannot taell age" a terrible piece of fluff that is incosistent as hell (as sometimes they cna tell age, sometimes they can't).

Again, a reaper isn't made fro ma single material. Even if its' armor shell is made out of unobtanium, the rest of it isn't. The internals will have wireing, conduits and all other stuff (as we seen inside the derilict reaper) and these will be made from different materials.

[Core_Commander]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Given everything else we know about the universe? No.

Didn't Cerberus determine the derelict reaper was hit 37 million years ago or something?

And b.t.w - there is a difference between good science fiction and bad science fiction. Good one is concistent  internally and has little plot holes.

Personally, I consider the we cannot taell age" a terrible piece of fluff that is incosistent as hell (as sometimes they cna tell age, sometimes they can't).

Again, a reaper isn't made fro ma single material. Even if its' armor shell is made out of unobtanium, the rest of it isn't. The internals will have wireing, conduits and all other stuff (as we seen inside the derilict reaper) and these will be made from different materials.

That's a wholly different pair of space booties and I'm sure you know it, but I'll point out the obvious anyway:

Cerberus determined that something hit a planet. You have other samples (the whole PLANET of them) to determine when the hit was made. It clocks at around X million years. You can also determine speed, just as the speed of Earthly impactors is - because you have a whole planet as your "control group".

Then you trace a line (somehow... I'll let this one slide), and you find a thing on the supposed collision course. It's Z meters away. The time for the impactor of Y speed to travel the distance Z + the age of the scar X = supposed date of the hit, assuming it "died" on the spot and didn't drift a million light years. Simple enough. Achievable (besides the tracing) with current methods. SCIENCE fiction.

But the age of the actual reaper? Indeterminable. Why? Because they're space Cthulhus made of mass-unobtanium, that's why. And Sovereign is worse, it's just bits and pieces made of such. This is where the FICTION part comes in, it shouldn't violate suspension of disbelief if considered within the "Reapers, techno-gods exist" paradigm. Sure, people will complain, but it's plausible enough I hope. <_<

Also, I'm glad that some people are such experts at Reaper construction that they know what they're made of and what they aren't, specifically their hull and wiring and conduits. The Earth is safe in ME3, just go for the wires. I'm sure they're like, copper and definitely NOT the same or similar material as the hull, because...

...because?

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .

[aftohsix]

Keepers have been proven to need space suits now? Read my sig man.