265 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackwindTheCommander]

marshalleck wrote...

who would know wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

This irked me. If the council publicly denied events in order to keep the calm, fine. But they should be straight up when meeting with Shepard.

Exactly. It's not like this scenario would be any more difficult or challenging to write than having the Council not believe Shepard. It's all explained by Bioware themselves anyways, as I mentioned earlier. If you hit google and go back a few years to ME2 previews, you can catch many instances of Casey talking about how Shepard is to be isolated from his/her friends and allies to make ME2 more dark. 

Whether that worked or not is up the player. Personally I think it didn't. 

you should also take into account the Council doesn't trust Shepard because of his involvement with Cerberus. He dissapears for 2 years, by all accounts dead, then waltzs back in sporting a shiny new Cerberus ship and crew?

Would you still trust him? They have no idea what could have happened to him in that time period, what Cerberus could have done to him.

Even over secure channels in private I wouldn't divulge any sensitive data to Shepard until I could observe him and see if hes still on the up and up.

[Medhia Nox]

All I know - is what an Austrian body-builder turned Terminator, turned Predator-killer taught me:

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

Of course - the Reapers don't "bleed" - but the point remains the same.

Who cares what they're made out of - one Reaper did not cause all that destruction in the battle for the Citadel. It was one Reaper, plus an armada of Geth.

And - from what I could tell - one missile from the Normandy finishes off Sovereign.

The Reapers are blowhards. I refute any claim that they're actually "Machine-Cthulu" - I stand by my opinion that they're just telling us that.

The fact that we could reverse engineer the thanix weaponry in less than two years (okay, the Turians did it) makes me think that they're really not that special.

If the metal their made out of is "un-obtainium" why are their weaponry so "obtainium" (I'm making a new word here people!)

[InvaderErl]

The Reapers at this point can't afford to wait, with weapons like the Thanix cannon and EDI the Milky Way races are now getting far more of a leg up on the technological scale than the Reapers ever intended. Not to mention that we know via Dr. Kenson's research (indoctrinated though she may have been) that people are starting to look at the Relays and are investigating them.  If they wait a few thousand more years (for what I don't know) then they'll have to deal with technology that's been built on the foundations of Sovereign's tech and would essentially strip them of their advantage. Essentially, the Reapers are running out of time.

As of why they just didn't fly to the Alpha relay back in ME1 I'm merely speculating here but I think we're going to see that the flight back into the galaxy took more out of them in terms of power and resources than we expected.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:21 .

[Core_Commander]

Medhia Nox wrote...

All I know - is what an Austrian body-builder turned Terminator, turned Predator-killer taught me:

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

Of course - the Reapers don't "bleed" - but the point remains the same.

Who cares what they're made out of - one Reaper did not cause all that destruction in the battle for the Citadel. It was one Reaper, plus an armada of Geth.

And - from what I could tell - one missile from the Normandy finishes off Sovereign.

The Reapers are blowhards. I refute any claim that they're actually "Machine-Cthulu" - I stand by my opinion that they're just telling us that.

The fact that we could reverse engineer the thanix weaponry in less than two years (okay, the Turians did it) makes me think that they're really not that special.

If the metal their made out of is "un-obtainium" why are their weaponry so "obtainium" (I'm making a new word here people!)

Well, the Reaper ego sure blots out the sun, and of course they're not literally "gods". They're simply so advanced that races of the galaxy wouldn't really know how to compete. Tanks and nerve gas vs. slings and greek fire.

"However one missile from the Normandy finishes off Sovereign" is about right... it *finishes* him off. That was AFTER he bluescreens from having his direct link to Saren severed, something we cannot count on happening for every one of them. He had his barriers, weapon systems and pants down. Minutes before that however, Sovereign was having a romantic tete-a-tete with the Citadel, blowing up cruisers with similar ease and a casual lack of care a young girl eats spoonfuls of ice cream with, while watching a romantic comedy.

You know, I'll let you in on a secret... Cthulhu isn't a literal "god" either. He's just a really, REEEEAALLLYYYY old alien thing, very powerful and with incomprehensible thought patterns and cravings, and big trouble for the world if he wakes up. His followers (that he doesn't care for, because he's busy being dead, but not quite dead) call him "god" because that's what comes to their warped minds. And seemingly warping reality with his mere presence... hmmm... similar to *something* I could swear... oh but he's not made of metal, so it's totally different. Right?

...now that we've established this... can I get a "Nazara fhtagn"?  

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:26 .

[Phaedon]

These ancient mythological starships that attack every 50K years are true! Shepard said that they would begin their invasion! But they haven't yet! Oh well, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that these sentient starships really exist, though.

[joltmajor]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What...did they forget how to do basic carbon dating? Sovereign is supposed to be far older than the Geth race.

You can't carbon date inorganic material.

Modifié par joltmajor, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:26 .

[Piotrburz]

Although i always recognized reapers as a machines, it seems that they are mix of organic and machine. So yes you could carbon date reaper.

[brain_damage]

The whole galaxy knows, it's just that Shepard doesn't know that they know, so s/he's the bumbling idiot here. Mordin actually admits that he has a published work about Reaper indoctrination(and in the LotSB DLC it's even named: "Indoctrination Progression and Mental Degredation (classified, STG)". Kasumi's greybox shows that the Alliance knows about Reapers. The council has just been denying their knowledge of the Reapers because Shepard is currently working with a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION and is no longer allied with the council - at the end of the first game, they flat out admit that they believe you about the Reapers.
It's just that they don't want
a) The public to panic
Their allies to know that they know, because they want to take every opportunity they get in the ensuing chaos to seize more power over the other races.
There. It's not like there's a whole gigantic dead Reaper floating in space, in the Hawking Eta. Right?

[Praetor Knight]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In the ME series asa whole?

amnely, that no one excpet Cerberus belives in Reapers.
The Council races have the remains of Sovereign and they are so utterly dumb that tehy consider it geth? What...did they forgot how to do basic carbon dating? Soverign is supposed ot be far older than the geth race. That shouldn't be hard ot figurew out.
Not to mention that  it should be pretty obvious that it's not geth, as all geth share some similarities and it should have been more than obvious after studying the remain, that the ship is FAR more advanced than anytihng the geth ever demonstrated, and it has different design and tech.

The reapers are the boogeymen, big foot, dragons, griffons, minotaurs and/or unicorn of the ME universe, why would any logical individual believe in them without more evidence?

I can see how their existence can be covered up when so little is understood of the Geth and of the Reapers.

The nwe have the whole Ilos thing...the VI interfact? The prothean hybernation tubes? Waht, I know the VI lost power, but since when does loosing power destroy a a computer? Dont' tell me one can't recover any data from the hardware at all?

I think Vigil could have hitched a ride to the Citadel and is chillin' out there now, hiding in plain sight.

I beat ME1 recently so it's fresh in my memory right now, Shepard was able to quickly reverse whatever Saren did, so I think it likely to assume that it was Vigil quietly working its magic on the Citadel Master Control systems that let Shepard be the big goddamned hero.

Or the "dead" reaper the Cerberus stumbled upon. Why keep it secret? There's the perfect proof of repaers right there!

The more I look into hte ME universe, the more holes I keep finding.
Bioware, Y U ruin this?????

TIM seems to be fighting a War (from what I've gleaned from the books and comics, I haven't read them yet just synopses on the wiki), and Shepard certainly is. So if Shepard and squad didn't get locked inside the dead reaper, I'm guessing they would have tried to do something different there. And remember sometimes it's all about location. Location, location, location, so that brown dwarf, if I remember correctly out in the Terminus, was a very bad location.


And I dunno how to not make this sound rude, so I apologize, but check the Codex more often, and explore all of the dialogue options you can, with the "Investigate" button. I know, I do that all the time. You'd see that there are very few things that can be considered plot holes by doing so, IMHO.

[Rahmiel]

I would hazard a guess that given the numerous typos in the OP, that this isn't an actual thread. There are quite a few of these threads going.. with much better grammar and spelling.

[Ulicus]

I harp on about this a lot, but the biggest problem for me is Shepard's vision being completely ignored. The Council had every right to ignore it as evidence in the first game. After Shepard deliberately disobeyed them to head into the Terminus systems due to his vision and then saved the Citadel because of it, however, no-one should be turning their noses at it any more.

Now, I don't care if BioWare can come up with some reason for the Council to still dismiss Shepard's vision -- and maybe it'll come up in ME3 -- but it was an awfully big elephant in the room.

[BatmanPWNS]

Bioware just wants an excuse for us to hate the Council.

[Someone With Mass]

Ulicus wrote...

I harp on about this a lot, but the biggest problem for me is Shepard's vision being completely ignored. The Council had every right to ignore it as evidence in the first game. After Shepard deliberately disobeyed them to head into the Terminus systems due to his vision and then saved the Citadel because of it, however, no-one should be turning their noses at it any more.

Now, I don't care if BioWare can come up with some reason for the Council to still dismiss Shepard's vision -- and maybe it'll come up in ME3 -- but it was an awfully big elephant in the room.

They're dismissing it, because the concrete evidence went ka-boom with Sovereign. And I don't think they want to waste resources because one Alliance commander had some bad dream. If he can display solid evidence, like the datapad with a picture of Harbinger or a recorded converstion with him (seriously, why didn't anyone think of that?) I'm sure he'll gain the Council's support.

Or maybe they're dismissing it because they want to keep the whole thing a secret, I don't know.

[Dave of Canada]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Even Anderson says that the Council is denying it. He doesn't say they're covering it up; he says they're not doing anything.

So unless you want to try and argue that the human Councilor is "left out of the loop" then you can't really claim that the Council is denying the reapers for the sake of the public. That's not supported by any of the evidence.

Quoting to bring it back up because some people seem to have not read it yet.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:48 .

[Ulicus]

Someone With Mass wrote...
They're dismissing it, because the concrete evidence went ka-boom with Sovereign. And I don't think they want to waste resources because one Alliance commander had some bad dream.

But that's my problem:  he proved it was more than a dream in the first game. There was *nothing else* that led him to Ilos. Nothing. At all. The Council already played their "we won't do anything because of a dream" card and Shepard already proved them wrong.

*shrug*

I wouldn't have minded so much if Shepard had been able to bring it up, only for the Council to say: "well, sure, it led you to Ilos... but you yourself have admitted you don't understand the vision fully, and originally identified the machine attackers as geth."

Or perhaps it should have been revealed that Shepard shared the vision (and perhaps even the cipher) with a few more asari experts and they all disagreed with him about the implications. Anything that didn't just outright ignore it.

Someone With Mass wrote...
If he can display solid evidence, like the datapad with a picture of Harbinger or a recorded converstion with him (seriously, why didn't anyone think of that?) I'm sure he'll gain the Council's support.

It's implied that the Reapers jam the crap out of communications equipment.

"It cuts out after that, no comm traffic at all, there's nothing"

Or something. I don't know. *shrug*

Modifié par Ulicus, 20 juillet 2011 - 07:51 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Even Anderson says that the Council is denying it. He doesn't say they're covering it up; he says they're not doing anything.

So unless you want to try and argue that the human Councilor is "left out of the loop" then you can't really claim that the Council is denying the reapers for the sake of the public. That's not supported by any of the evidence.

Quoting to bring it back up because some people seem to have not read it yet.

The STG knows about the Reapers. I think that's enough.

[Tamahome560]

Anyone notice the massive troll?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

In Shepard's absence, the Council has had time to sit idle and rethink what the Reapers actually are. They're in denial... and came up with a surprisingly decent arguement for it.

The Reapers are a hard pill to swallow for them... they may just not fearfully want to believe it... kind of like how some would rather not believe in God due to the subjectively fearful implications of such a thing.

[AtreiyaN7]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

Or, an alternate possibility is that the Council knows exactly what Sovereign was and are covering things up specifically so that they can benefit from the technology while keeping non-Council races and/or other undesirables from getting hold of it. To the public, Shepard already looks a bit crazy - which I imagine would be to the Council's advantage if their goal is to keep any and all research for themselves.

The reality of the Reapers existing is incontrovertible, but what I think is that the Council refuses to believe in is the idea of a major Reaper invasion with hundreds or thousands of Reapers headed in the direction of Council space. Also, they just barely admitted Shepard was right when Sovereign was on their doorstep. And why should they say anything or explain themselves to Shepard? It's not like the Council races have any love or respect for humans. I also think the Council is led by a bunch of short-sighted morons - just like real-life politicians and bureaucrats who almost never get anything done in a timely manner, even when faced with major issues.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 20 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[marshalleck]

Tamahome560 wrote...

Anyone notice the massive troll?

Someone With Mass? He's hard to miss, unfortunately. 

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
..so you'd be looking at C14 half-life IN SPACE...

So, basically, you don't have any idea how radioisotope dating works.  Hint: the half-life of C14 doesn't depend on where the atoms are. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:19 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Core_Commander wrote...
Also, I'm glad that some people are such experts at Reaper construction that they know what they're made of and what they aren't, specifically their hull and wiring and conduits. The Earth is safe in ME3, just go for the wires. I'm sure they're like, copper and definitely NOT the same or similar material as the hull, because...

...because?

Because materials for constructing individual pieces are chosen based on their properties. Properties that are fixed and determined on an atomic level. Broze, gold, copper, etc....elements act like elements and are used in construction because of what they are.
Have you any idea how many different materials are used in construction of just your average PC?

If you're telling me reapers are made compeltely out of unobtanium, that has any and all properties that are needed to make a fucntioning starship (most of which are conflicting, mind you), then thats not science-fiction any more..that's magic in purest form.
Not to mention that we seen the internals of a repaer, and different parts are definately made of different materials - one can easily tell with the naked eye (given that different element have different visuals...just like all metals have the metallic gleam)

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Because materials for constructing individual pieces are chosen based on their properties. Properties that are fixed and determined on an atomic level. Broze, gold, copper, etc....elements act like elements and are used in construction because of what they are.
Have you any idea how many different materials are used in construction of just your average PC?

If you're telling me reapers are made compeltely out of unobtanium, that has any and all properties that are needed to make a fucntioning starship (most of which are conflicting, mind you), then thats not science-fiction any more..that's magic in purest form.
Not to mention that we seen the internals of a repaer, and different parts are definately made of different materials - one can easily tell with the naked eye (given that different element have different visuals...just like all metals have the metallic gleam)

Eh, mankind in Mass Effect found an element that reduces the mass of objects and creates dark energy when a current runs through it. And it made it possible for some people to move things with their minds. And FTL travels.

Not to mention that they have only mapped about 5% of the galaxy at best.

You're honestly trying to tell me that there isn't a chance that Reapers might be made of some sturdy stuff that the humans haven't discovered yet?

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:03 .

[Core_Commander]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because materials for constructing individual pieces are chosen based on their properties. Properties that are fixed and determined on an atomic level. Broze, gold, copper, etc....elements act like elements and are used in construction because of what they are.
Have you any idea how many different materials are used in construction of just your average PC?

If you're telling me reapers are made compeltely out of unobtanium, that has any and all properties that are needed to make a fucntioning starship (most of which are conflicting, mind you), then thats not science-fiction any more..that's magic in purest form.
Not to mention that we seen the internals of a repaer, and different parts are definately made of different materials - one can easily tell with the naked eye (given that different element have different visuals...just like all metals have the metallic gleam)

What I wrote was "same or similar". Unknown alloys. Weird properties. Unreliable readings, if one was to try and research it. Heck, why not? We're talking about machines of unknown origin, probably made in an unknown place when dinosaurs were rocking the Earth and hairy proto-protheans were still busy smearing their caves' walls with poop.

In short, it's still "light" science fiction, so unless we're not told something specifically, we don't know. IF we're told something specifically we have to take it into our paradigm, if it doesn't make sense then it's the author's licentia poetica... or author's fail if it's too outlandish to swallow, whichever. Intricacies of reaper design is unknown, because they said so. Age is impossible to gauge, because it is. That's what we're given to work with, comparing to computers and whatevers is pointless because the "fact" (as in in-universe fact) has already been stated. We're not told why, either the Council is bullsh$%ng Shepard or Sovereign's charred remains, making up less than half of his original mass, weren't enough to conduct proper tests with clear results.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:07 .