265 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Piotrburz wrote...

Although i always recognized reapers as a machines, it seems that they are mix of organic and machine. So yes you could carbon date reaper.

No, not really.  Again this will pretty much be an exercise in futility, unless you know exactly where the carbon came from, whether multiple sources of carbon were involved, how it was processed, etc., etc., etc.  Even here on Earth, where we have typically lots of data about the environment and origins of the materials or organisms being dated, it's not just a matter of "count how many C14 atoms are left".  That's just the starting point.  For instance, we know of some organisms where, due to their biology and local environment, it can give highly skewed or even variable dates. Another example: nuclear weapons testing drastically altered atmospheric levels (as in, roughly doubled them), which in turn affected the carbon cycle, which in turn affected levels in various organisms, which in turn will affect any future dating done on them.  How could you possibly compensate for stuff like that if you have no clue where in the hell the carbon came from (much less whether the manufacturing processes involved further screwed with the C14 ratios)?

And similar problems would exist for other radioisotope methods (potassium-argon, uranium-lead, etc.) unless you had a very good idea of where all the materials in Sovereign came from, how and when those materials were manufactured, and so on.  For example, imagine you just randomly found a deformed lump of depleted uranium somewhere and tried dating it without knowing anything about fission reactors, uranium enrichment processes, etc.  The date derived would be completely worthless.  It could have been made a week ago, and you'd have no idea whatsoever.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:39 .

[tez19]

Humans are superior to the alien scum. Only the humans can figure things out.

[Iakus]

scyphozoa wrote...

For all this discussion, this topic is just a matter of thinly veiled plot devices. Council denies reapers, all evidence is lost or destroyed, etc etc, whatever it takes to advance the plot of ME2.

Indeed.  It's not so much a plot hole as a heavy-handed DM Fiat to put the story back on the rails.

And a big reason why I'm now really disillusioned about the whole concept of imported saves.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I kept thinking during Vigils spiel, what? Noone is recording this with their omni-tool?

[WoolyJoe]

Blah blah blah, blah-boobedy by-yah. Boobeddie by-blah, ka-kookety blah. Herpy derpy-derp, ta tiddly tum - tiddly plot-holes da bipply by-blah bloo! Ba-boopedy points of view ta tiddly tum-ti-too. Bum-di bad writing ta-tiddly derpy herpy dum! Ta tiddly I-play-the-games-but-love-to-moan-regardless by-blah boopdy bleep-bloop in-da-bungalow! W'at da bloobedy by-yah is-BioWare-thinking-!-unproffessional-and-poorly-written herpy dumpty sat-on-a-wall derp!
Rob Schneider is: poorly writing and making plot-holes rendering the imported saves pointless!
Rated PG-13

Modifié par WoolyJoe, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:04 .

[WoolyJoe]

Aka: I don't care - and why dwell?

Modifié par WoolyJoe, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:03 .

[Wulfram]

joltmajor wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What...did they forget how to do basic carbon dating? Sovereign is supposed to be far older than the Geth race.

You can't carbon date inorganic material.

Well, Soylent Reaper is people, so that shouldn't be a problem, right?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Eh, mankind in Mass Effect found an element that reduces the mass of objects and creates dark energy when a current runs through it. And it made it possible for some people to move things with their minds. And FTL travels.

Not to mention that they have only mapped about 5% of the galaxy at best.

You're honestly trying to tell me that there isn't a chance that Reapers might be made of some sturdy stuff that the humans haven't discovered yet?

Yes. Because you cannot maxe complex machinery out of  a singular itmes. It's like making a computer out of a rock. It might be an amzing rock, but different computer parts require completely different properties, and a rock can't have ALL of them. Super rosk or steel or alloy - it doesn't matter. It can be both rigid and flexible, both conductive and non-conductive, both metallic and non-metallic, etc, etc...

Core_Commander wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because
materials for constructing individual pieces are chosen based on their
properties. Properties that are fixed and determined on an atomic level.
Broze, gold, copper, etc....elements act like elements and are used in
construction because of what they are.
Have you any idea how many different materials are used in construction of just your average PC?

If
you're telling me reapers are made compeltely out of unobtanium, that
has any and all properties that are needed to make a fucntioning
starship (most of which are conflicting, mind you), then thats not
science-fiction any more..that's magic in purest form.
Not to mention
that we seen the internals of a repaer, and different parts are
definately made of different materials - one can easily tell with the
naked eye (given that different element have different visuals...just
like all metals have the metallic gleam)

What I wrote was "same or similar".
Unknown alloys. Weird properties. Unreliable readings, if one was to
try and research it. Heck, why not? We're talking about machines of
unknown origin, probably made in an unknown place when dinosaurs were
rocking the Earth and hairy proto-protheans were still busy smearing
their caves' walls with poop.

In short, it's still "light"
science fiction, so unless we're not told something specifically, we
don't know. IF we're told something specifically we have to take it into
our paradigm, if it doesn't make sense then it's the author's licentia
poetica... or author's fail if it's too outlandish to swallow,
whichever. Intricacies of reaper design is unknown, because they said
so. Age is impossible to gauge, because it is. That's what we're given
to work with, comparing to computers and whatevers is pointless because
the "fact" (as in in-universe fact) has already been stated. We're not
told why, either the Council is bullsh$%ng Shepard or Sovereign's
charred remains, making up less than half of his original mass, weren't
enough to conduct proper tests with clear results.

Tons of unknown alloys with super-properties, constructio nadn method thousands of yours ahead of our know. Would any sane individual ever belive it was Geth?

And no, I can't agree with you fully there. While we do have to work with what we're told, sometimes what we're told is a bunch of crap. anything they tell me that goes against common sense is instant-faluire as far as I'm concerned.

[Bad King]

Rivercurse wrote...

Yeah I've also pretty much always assumed the Council know all about it but won't publicly say they do for obvious reasons.

It's possible- Maelon mentioned reaper indoctrination in Mordin's loyalty mission which perhaps implies that the STG know about the reapers- Mordin certainly knows about them too.

It is also mentioned on the news that the council races are building up their militaries (during Mass Effect 2).

Modifié par Bad King, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:19 .

[BS Veyron]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BS Veyron wrote...

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. When Sovvy shows up hes flanked by the Geth. You cant really blame people for believing what they see over what you say. Anderson also mentions that they did not collect much of Sovvy's wreckage because the Keepers got to it first and were quick with its clean up.

Sovereign is a SPACE SHIP. Iit's parts are floating IN SPACE..with a few fallen on the citadel. And it's a HUGE space ship.

You can't really honestly expect me to read that explanation with a straight face?
Keepers moving frigate-sized pieces without anyone noticing? Keepers going out in space suits to collect Soveregins parts before anyone else could get them?
No...just...no.

Who said they had to be frigate sized pieces?  Not enough is known about the keepers to know what they are capable of.  For all we know they have the capability of taking apart the sections of Sovvy into managable pieces.  It is also mentioned that nobody where the keepers come from and where they dispose of stuff they remove.  Its mentioned they can remove whole bulkheads and reorganize sections of the citadel in a matter of hours.  Something the Citadel races cant do. 

[Medhia Nox]

We were also told originally that the Geth were "impossible to study because they fried their internals" - thereby making the Geth Rifle you get in ME 2 so "unique".

Of course - then we find Tali with a veritable junkyard of "half-working" devices, and some she claims were so close to working that she couldn't send them to her father.

If the Geth could achieve this (though, evidently they couldn't in the second game) why would the Reapers leave anything behind?

Honestly - depriving organics of my vast knowledge would be first on my list. ((Which makes the Collector base so mental that I don't fear the Reapers... at all))

===

@Core_Commander: C'mon - be fair - Cthulu is so much better at being "ancient and unknowable" than these Reaper fellas.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 21 juillet 2011 - 12:48 .

[Sgt Stryker]

BS Veyron wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BS Veyron wrote...

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. When Sovvy shows up hes flanked by the Geth. You cant really blame people for believing what they see over what you say. Anderson also mentions that they did not collect much of Sovvy's wreckage because the Keepers got to it first and were quick with its clean up.

Sovereign is a SPACE SHIP. Iit's parts are floating IN SPACE..with a few fallen on the citadel. And it's a HUGE space ship.

You can't really honestly expect me to read that explanation with a straight face?
Keepers moving frigate-sized pieces without anyone noticing? Keepers going out in space suits to collect Soveregins parts before anyone else could get them?
No...just...no.

Who said they had to be frigate sized pieces?  Not enough is known about the keepers to know what they are capable of.  For all we know they have the capability of taking apart the sections of Sovvy into managable pieces.  It is also mentioned that nobody where the keepers come from and where they dispose of stuff they remove.  Its mentioned they can remove whole bulkheads and reorganize sections of the citadel in a matter of hours.  Something the Citadel races cant do. 

And yet the Citadel races recovered enough of Sovereign to develop Thanix cannons and EDI.

[The Spamming Troll]

dudes your forgetting weve got enemy protections that make you immune to everything! ill just make sure ive got a ton of shields, and the reapers attacks will simply make me shuffle my feet a bit.

"did a reaper just bomb me, or was that a mosquito?"

maybe the thing i hate the most in the entire franchise, is the way were going to beat the reapers!

hail enemy protections!

[Savber100]

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

And you wanted them to go telling their plans to a formerly DEAD Spectre that is now resurrected and is working with Cerberus, a terrorist organization known for its xenophobia? 

It might not have been a smart move to alienate Shepard but I understand why they would be feigning disbelief.

In the end, I think the Council knows better and is working to counter the threat BUT is refusing to release the info into the public to avoid chaos while also refusing to tell a formerly dead Spectre what their plans are because they believe that Shepard is a security risk. After all, Shepard randomly appears, working for a terrorist organization, and you want the Council to go all "Yippee, Shepard is back and is working with an anti-alien organization. We should tell him EVERYTHING that the Council is currently planning!"

The Salarian Councillor was vague when Shepard demanded that they examine Sovereign. Is it really too much to ask if they were hiding something from who they assume is a formerly dead, Cerberus-influenced agent?

As Udina said, Shepard's return is a "bureaucratic nightmare" for everyone. 

Modifié par Savber100, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:43 .

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, Soylent Reaper is people, so that shouldn't be a problem, right?

Assuming there isn't some sort of nanowizardry going on that converts the gooified remains into something else...sure you could carbon date some of the stuff in a Reaper.  Of course, the individuals processed to make said Reaper are not all going to have been born and raised on the same planets (or have lived in the same locations on said planets, which could be highly significant depending on the species in question) and their remains are going to all be hoplessly jumbled together and the carbon-containing components may have been replaced any number of times during that particular Reaper's lifetime (amongst other confounding factors) so whatever date you might get is totally useless.

[Quething]

Savber100 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm going with the Council denying everything to avoid panic. It's not bad writing, it's just pointed out so people on BSN can have something new to bit*h about.

Bull****. If that were the case, why can't they admit it in private with Shepard, and say that's why they're publicly denying the Reapers?

"We believe you Shepard, but try to understand our predicament. We'd have complete chaos on our hands if we announced the imminent apocalyptic end of our civilization. We're doing what we can, but we won't discuss it with you while you're affiliating with Cerberus." (dialogue continues as normal about reinstating Spectre status as show of good faith, etc.)

How hard was that to write? Not hard, trust me. I know because I just wrote it.

And you wanted them to go telling their plans to a formerly DEAD Spectre that is now resurrected and is working with Cerberus, a terrorist organization known for its xenophobia? 

It might not have been a smart move to alienate Shepard but I understand why they would be feigning disbelief.

In the end, I think the Council knows better and is working to counter the threat BUT is refusing to release the info into the public to avoid chaos while also refusing to tell a formerly dead Spectre what their plans are because they believe that Shepard is a security risk. After all, Shepard randomly appears, working for a terrorist organization, and you want the Council to go all "Yippee, Shepard is back and is working with an anti-alien organization. We should tell him EVERYTHING that the Council is currently planning!"

The Salarian Councillor was vague when Shepard demanded that they examine Sovereign. Is it really too much to ask if they were hiding something from who they assume is a formerly dead, Cerberus-influenced agent?

As Udina said, Shepard's return is a "bureaucratic nightmare" for everyone. 

You're ignoring the Anderson issue. Unless you're positing that Anderson, too, is trying to give Shep the runaround in ME2. It doesn't seem impossible to me -- dude either wouldn't tell me where Ash is, or wouldn't tell Ash what was up with me, depending on the outreach project timeline, which is a little sketch from an "Anderson's completely in your corner" perspective -- but it seems really unlikely to me that BioWare intended that. I think the player is supposed to be able to believe Anderson. And Anderson says the Council doesn't believe and isn't doing anything.

This is why I've only got one save where the Council lives. Not because I hate the turian councillor, not because I play renegade, but because it makes some of the ME2 retconning markedly easier to swallow. A new Council claiming not to believe to each other, while every one of their individual governments is secretly investigating and collecting info (Mordin's STG work, Dr Kenson's project, the Thanix cannon), makes perfect sense. The old Council and Anderson either lying to your face and to each other, or being genuinely ignorant, after the ME1 epilogue and in light of the STG/Thanix cannon, makes much less, no matter how much one is inclined to believe politicians to be willfully stupid.

Modifié par Quething, 21 juillet 2011 - 02:23 .

[Kabanya101]

What I don't understand is how Cerberus kept the reaper hidden. Cloaking devices work on electronics, like Joker says with Legion's loyalty quest, "We're only hidden on radar. Someone could just look out a window to spot us."

So probes that are sent through space taking photos would eventually come across it, seeing as it was as big as the Moon.

[Sgt Stryker]

Well, it was in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf. Please tell me your comment about the Moon is hyperbole; there's no way the derelict Reaper was THAT large.

[b1n0ry]

The plot holes were so massive I fell through one of them.

[Kathleen321]

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

Or maybe it is really good writing, so good we haven't caught on. Perhaps the council has been backing up the reapers the whole time. I always thought the council was backing up the Reapers or were indoctrinated. It would explain why they are denying obvious evidence and were against Shepard the whole time. Who knows?I think there is going to be quite a few surprises in ME3. 

[marshalleck]

Kathleen321 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

Or maybe it is really good writing, so good we haven't caught on. Perhaps the council has been backing up the reapers the whole time. I always thought the council was backing up the Reapers or were indoctrinated. It would explain why they are denying obvious evidence and were against Shepard the whole time. Who knows?I think there is going to be quite a few surprises in ME3. 

No, it's not. It's the idiot ball scenario I presented earlier. If you don't believe me, dig up old previews and interviews with Casey Hudson. He talks about how they specifically set out to make the player feel alienated (and make the story "dark") by cutting off the expected avenues of support. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:17 .

[Medhia Nox]

I feel like the most important, intelligent, and special person in the future... thank you Bioware!

[Savber100]

Quething wrote...

You're ignoring the Anderson issue. Unless you're positing that Anderson, too, is trying to give Shep the runaround in ME2. It doesn't seem impossible to me -- dude either wouldn't tell me where Ash is, or wouldn't tell Ash what was up with me, depending on the outreach project timeline, which is a little sketch from an "Anderson's completely in your corner" perspective -- but it seems really unlikely to me that BioWare intended that. I think the player is supposed to be able to believe Anderson. And Anderson says the Council doesn't believe and isn't doing anything.

This is why I've only got one save where the Council lives. Not because I hate the turian councillor, not because I play renegade, but because it makes some of the ME2 retconning markedly easier to swallow. A new Council claiming not to believe to each other, while every one of their individual governments is secretly investigating and collecting info (Mordin's STG work, Dr Kenson's project, the Thanix cannon), makes perfect sense. The old Council and Anderson either lying to your face and to each other, or being genuinely ignorant, after the ME1 epilogue and in light of the STG/Thanix cannon, makes much less, no matter how much one is inclined to believe politicians to be willfully stupid.

Anderson didn't trust you with his affairs anymore than the Council. He refused to comment on VS's current condition, pointing out that the Commander was working with Cerberus. Some would ask why Anderson didn't trust Shepard after the events of ME. The answer is simple. Shepard was DEAD for two years and then suddenly reappears and is working for Cerberus. This is more weird than Starbuck from BSG reappearing after her demise and is more than enough reason to have Anderson hold back information about ANYTHING that might end up being heard by Cerberus.

If Anderson REALLY thinks that the Council is not paying attention, I believe it's because the Council has not yet really trust the Alliance despite their role at the Battle of the Citadel. 

I doubt Humanity, the newest member of the Council, is being allowed to know every little backroom dealing of the Council and I won't not surprised if Anderson is out of the loop.

marshalleck wrote...

No, it's not. It's the idiot ball
scenario I presented earlier. If you don't believe me, dig up old
previews and interviews with Casey Hudson. He talks about how they
specifically set out to make the player feel alienated (and make the
story "dark") by cutting off the expected avenues of support. 

So we're relying on old ME2's preview and interviews to prove that we have found plotholes within ME2 before the third chapter of a 3-part story has been released... Huh...  <_<

Modifié par Savber100, 21 juillet 2011 - 04:13 .

[marshalleck]

Savber100 wrote...

So we're relying on old ME2's preview and interviews to prove that we have found plotholes within ME2 before the third chapter of a 3-part story has been released... Huh...  <_<

I never called it a plot hole. In fact I said it's not a plot hole.  My second post on the first page:

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1.