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[Savber100]

marshalleck wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

So we're relying on old ME2's preview and interviews to prove that we have found plotholes within ME2 before the third chapter of a 3-part story has been released... Huh...  <_<

I never called it a plot hole. In fact I said it's not a plot hole.  My second post on the first page:

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

All right... change my words from "plothole" to "bad writing" 

If this was a standalone game, I would have agreed but is it that far-fetched to think that Bioware might be preparing for several big twist for ME3 with possible twists like TIM believing Shepard is indoctrinated or Council is hiding something from Shepard? If this happens and the writers does it right, would this still be considered as "bad writing"?

[Dreamdancer]

Reading this thread I wonder how many of the people saying "plothole" or "bad writing" have looked at current day politicians and wondered how completely out of touch with reality they are.
For me, when I heard the council tell me that they do not believe in a credible Reaper threat, my reaction was more like "Hah! Typical"
For one, the actual evidence Shep can present for a Reaper invasion is scarce indeed. And two, it is a common human trait to ignore or shove aside evidence that does not fit our preconceived notions. We even have the remarkable ability to lie to ourselves, which gets easier the longer an event is in the past. The revered leaders we know and love are no exception to this. Quite the contrary.

So when the council basically told my Shep to mind his own business because "Reapers? There are no stinking Reapers", this was frighteningly in line with what I've come to expect of humans in general and high level politicians in particular.

Then again, I am a certifed cynic.

Modifié par Dreamdancer, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:41 .

[HTTP 404]

cake is a lie, reaper is a lie

[armass]

I agree it's stupid that Shepard is supposed to have so much evidence to show, yet she cant use any of it because the plot requires that the reapers have a surprise attack. Then again even with evidence at hand some people would just refuse to believe it even then, they keep denying to the bitter end. It's human nature and that nature seems to be common among the aliens too. I guess they finally believe when they get blasted apart by the reapers beams, get torn to shreds by husks or get crushed under the rubble.

Modifié par armass, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:56 .

[ramdog7]

Dreamdancer wrote...

Reading this thread I wonder how many of the people saying "plothole" or "bad writing" have looked at current day politicians and wondered how completely out of touch with reality they are.
For me, when I heard the council tell me that they do not believe in a credible Reaper threat, my reaction was more like "Hah! Typical"
For one, the actual evidence Shep can present for a Reaper invasion is scarce indeed. And two, it is a common human trait to ignore or shove aside evidence that does not fit our preconceived notions. We even have the remarkable ability to lie to ourselves, which gets easier the longer an event is in the past. The revered leaders we know and love are no exception to this. Quite the contrary.

So when the council basically told my Shep to mind his own business because "Reapers? There are no stinking Reapers", this was frighteningly in line with what I've come to expect of humans in general and high level politicians in particular.

Then again, I am a certifed cynic.

^this! also in ME1 kaiden says that the council doesnt want to belive that their is nothing wrong with the galaxy 

[Savber100]

armass wrote...

I agree it's stupid that Shepard is supposed to have so much evidence to show, yet she cant use any of it because the plot requires that the reapers have a surprise attack.

What evidence? We had a dead AI which only proves to the Council that the Prothean exitsted since without Vigil no one would have came into the conclusion that it was the Reapers. Shepard had the vision and Vigil to prove to himself that he wasn't just dreaming this stuff up. The rest had nothing besides Shepard's word. 

That leaves Sovereign's remains which we're still debating if it's just bad writing or perhaps the Council was hiding something from Shepard or a simple reflection of the boneheadness of politicans. You know... like the Ministry of Magic when it was OBVIOUS that Voldemort was back in HP. 

I personally think it's stupid to dismiss a second part of a trilogy as full of plotholes and bad writing when we can't explain the gaps simply because we don't have enough info. 

Modifié par Savber100, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:05 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

BS Veyron wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

BS Veyron wrote...

The only people to come into direct contact with a Reaper itself is you and your team with nothing to show for it. When Sovvy shows up hes flanked by the Geth. You cant really blame people for believing what they see over what you say. Anderson also mentions that they did not collect much of Sovvy's wreckage because the Keepers got to it first and were quick with its clean up.

Sovereign is a SPACE SHIP. Iit's parts are floating IN SPACE..with a few fallen on the citadel. And it's a HUGE space ship.

You can't really honestly expect me to read that explanation with a straight face?
Keepers moving frigate-sized pieces without anyone noticing? Keepers going out in space suits to collect Soveregins parts before anyone else could get them?
No...just...no.

Who said they had to be frigate sized pieces?  Not enough is known about the keepers to know what they are capable of.  For all we know they have the capability of taking apart the sections of Sovvy into managable pieces.  It is also mentioned that nobody where the keepers come from and where they dispose of stuff they remove.  Its mentioned they can remove whole bulkheads and reorganize sections of the citadel in a matter of hours.  Something the Citadel races cant do. 

Because we saw Sovy blow up and we saw what's left. Gigantic pieces floating in space. How hard it it to collect them when you have a whole fleet around to tow parts?

And yes, while anyone should be capable of brekaing Sovy apart, it both takes time and it cannot be bone without anyone noticing. Sovys remains are floating around in space. They're not in the citadel, where keepers can emerge from secret doors.

Medhia Nox wrote...

We were also told originally that the
Geth were "impossible to study because they fried their internals" -
thereby making the Geth Rifle you get in ME 2 so "unique".

Of
course - then we find Tali with a veritable junkyard of "half-working"
devices, and some she claims were so close to working that she couldn't
send them to her father.

If the Geth could achieve this (though,
evidently they couldn't in the second game) why would the Reapers leave
anything behind?

Honestly - depriving organics of my vast
knowledge would be first on my list. ((Which makes the Collector base so
mental that I don't fear the Reapers... at all))

Good point. but alas it doesn't hold water. the Dead Repaer that had very muhc working tech on it and the Sovereigns cannons the turians reverse-engineered kinda go contrary to that. And all the Reaper tech Cerberus is researching. If it was all fried, there would be nothing to reserve-engineer or research.
And yeah...weird about the geth. Evne more weird when you have entire geth ships remains floating around Citadel. If that can't allow for a good comparison between geth ships and sovereign I don't know what would.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Savber100 wrote...

armass wrote...

I agree it's stupid that Shepard is supposed to have so much evidence to show, yet she cant use any of it because the plot requires that the reapers have a surprise attack.

What evidence? We had a dead AI which only proves to the Council that the Prothean exitsted since without Vigil no one would have came into the conclusion that it was the Reapers. Shepard had the vision and Vigil to prove to himself that he wasn't just dreaming this stuff up. The rest had nothing besides Shepard's word. 

That leaves Sovereign's remains which we're still debating if it's just bad writing or perhaps the Council was hiding something from Shepard or a simple reflection of the boneheadness of politicans. You know... like the Ministry of Magic when it was OBVIOUS that Voldemort was back in HP. 

I personally think it's stupid to dismiss a second part of a trilogy as full of plotholes and bad writing when we can't explain the gaps simply because we don't have enough info.

hte poster said SUPPOSED to have. Like evidence you'd expect you'd have, yet the game/story won't let you have it.

You know that helment or gun cams are not that uncommon among soldiers of developed counies anymore? You'd think that SpecOps in hte future would be able to record what they are seeing or hearing. If not with the helmet-cam, then with the Omni-tool or whatever.

I nreality, you should have an overwhelming avalanche of evidence. Yet the game doens't allow that. Yes, I call that bad writing...idiot ball is passed around like crazy.

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

 Sovys remains are floating around in space. They're not in the citadel, where keepers can emerge from secret doors.

Not according to what the game said:

Anderson: We don't have much to look at. Pieces of it rained all over the station. It was chaos, with who knows how many species combing the wards for their dead. We secured as much of it as we could, but between the keepers and a whole lot of unauthorized salvage, there's no way to account for even half of that thing.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes. Because you cannot maxe complex machinery out of  a singular itmes. It's like making a computer out of a rock. It might be an amzing rock, but different computer parts require completely different properties, and a rock can't have ALL of them. Super rosk or steel or alloy - it doesn't matter. It can be both rigid and flexible, both conductive and non-conductive, both metallic and non-metallic, etc, etc...

Then again, just because we have a few kind of computers doesn't mean we know how all potential computers in the galaxy works.

[vallore]

Someone likely already posted this but, unless I’m mistaken, carbon dating can only be used to determine when something died, not when it start living, so it shouldn’t be of much use in Sovereign's case.

Now, what actually the Council believes about Sovereign is more uncertain than it looks; their disbelief could be in itself a ruse, reflecting both their official cover story and the fact that they don’t trust Shepard, (or Andersen, apparently), with their findings.

Still, even if they secretly believe Sovereign was a Reaper they may, for instance, assume the thing was a relic from a bygone age; a lone survivor from the war of the machines with the Proteans, and therefore not a threat anymore.

[Tonymac]

Dreamdancer wrote...

Reading this thread I wonder how many of the people saying "plothole" or "bad writing" have looked at current day politicians and wondered how completely out of touch with reality they are.
For me, when I heard the council tell me that they do not believe in a credible Reaper threat, my reaction was more like "Hah! Typical"
For one, the actual evidence Shep can present for a Reaper invasion is scarce indeed. And two, it is a common human trait to ignore or shove aside evidence that does not fit our preconceived notions. We even have the remarkable ability to lie to ourselves, which gets easier the longer an event is in the past. The revered leaders we know and love are no exception to this. Quite the contrary.

So when the council basically told my Shep to mind his own business because "Reapers? There are no stinking Reapers", this was frighteningly in line with what I've come to expect of humans in general and high level politicians in particular.

Then again, I am a certifed cynic.

I'm going to pitch in with you too on this.  I see no plothole per se, just something thats going on behind the scenes and we are not seeing the whole story.  I would not trust a cerberus agent that was formerly a SPECTRE with all of the upfront info. 

I also wonder if the Citadel has some kind of Indoctrination device located on the Presidium.  Low level Indoctrination is time conuming, and leaves most of the hosts mental capacity intact - i.e. it would be hard to detect.  Harbinger did indeed mention in Arrival that our leaders would beg to be harvested.

And there is this doom and gloom thingy - like the peeps that say the world ends on such and such day - we have all seen it time and time again.  Only to laugh at it.  Ya man - sure - the world is going to end.  Now STFU and pass me a beer.....

[Lotion Soronarr]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

 Sovys remains are floating around in space. They're not in the citadel, where keepers can emerge from secret doors.

Not according to what the game said:

Anderson: We don't have much to look at. Pieces of it rained all over the station. It was chaos, with who knows how many species combing the wards for their dead. We secured as much of it as we could, but between the keepers and a whole lot of unauthorized salvage, there's no way to account for even half of that thing.

Which is, again, bollocks.
We was massive pieces ofit. no unauthorized salvage could have moved those pieces undetected. It's like carting an aircraft carrier away.
And even if you salvaged only 10% of it, that still a lot, as Sovereign was a massive vessel.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes. Because you cannot maxe complex machinery out of  a singular itmes. It's like making a computer out of a rock. It might be an amzing rock, but different computer parts require completely different properties, and a rock can't have ALL of them. Super rosk or steel or alloy - it doesn't matter. It can be both rigid and flexible, both conductive and non-conductive, both metallic and non-metallic, etc, etc...

Then again, just because we have a few kind of computers doesn't mean we know how all potential computers in the galaxy works.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Really? REALLY?

No matter who builds a computer, it's going to be built out of complex components and multiple materials, as it has a complex function and purpose.
It's basic common sense at work here.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really? REALLY?

No matter who builds a computer, it's going to be built out of complex components and multiple materials, as it has a complex function and purpose.
It's basic common sense at work here.

Common sense? In a science fiction game? Right...

[Kathleen321]

Dreamdancer wrote...

Reading this thread I wonder how many of the people saying "plothole" or "bad writing" have looked at current day politicians and wondered how completely out of touch with reality they are.
For me, when I heard the council tell me that they do not believe in a credible Reaper threat, my reaction was more like "Hah! Typical"
For one, the actual evidence Shep can present for a Reaper invasion is scarce indeed. And two, it is a common human trait to ignore or shove aside evidence that does not fit our preconceived notions. We even have the remarkable ability to lie to ourselves, which gets easier the longer an event is in the past. The revered leaders we know and love are no exception to this. Quite the contrary.

So when the council basically told my Shep to mind his own business because "Reapers? There are no stinking Reapers", this was frighteningly in line with what I've come to expect of humans in general and high level politicians in particular.

Then again, I am a certifed cynic.

haha true. Hate of idiotic politicians is something humanity can relate to. 

[Para Pett]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes. Because you cannot maxe complex machinery out of  a singular itmes. It's like making a computer out of a rock. It might be an amzing rock, but different computer parts require completely different properties, and a rock can't have ALL of them. Super rosk or steel or alloy - it doesn't matter. It can be both rigid and flexible, both conductive and non-conductive, both metallic and non-metallic, etc, etc...

Then again, just because we have a few kind of computers doesn't mean we know how all potential computers in the galaxy works.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Really? REALLY?

No matter who builds a computer, it's going to be built out of complex components and multiple materials, as it has a complex function and purpose.
It's basic common sense at work here.

That doesn't mean you know how to work it though.  Especially if you've never seen it before, or any of the writing on it.  You wouldn't know what any button would do, and you could have a chance of wiping any data on their by not being careful.  Good luck with deciphering it and then actually being able to use any data taken from it.

[Nizzemancer]

Stormrider 15 wrote...

also the computer on illos somehow self destructed or something after shep talked to it (anderson sais it)

No, they just haven't been able to make it work, I'm guessing prothean powergrids are a little bit more advanced than "plug in powersource".

[Nizzemancer]

Wut? IT's a computer. The data in it is not magicly gone just because power runs out.
And since when can only Sheppard understand it? Vigil was speaking in a format all your team members understood.

Vigil analyzed our transmissions and learned our language as he went along, the part that only shepar understands is due to him having had a prothean beacon forced into his head so it makes sense if you
A. Pay attention.
and
B. Think a little.

[Sgt Stryker]

I think a lot of these threads wouldn't exist if people followed those two principles, Nizzemancer. Not saying that's a bad thing.

[88mphSlayer]

alien scientists r dumb

[slimgrin]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, this is just poor writing. I cringe when I have to think about the plot holes and inconsistencies, but it is very real.

The idea of not spreading panic is bull. Sovereign just stomped and lasered the **** out of the Citadel, and then his guts rained down upon Millions of survivors. And the council successfully concinvced them A) its not a reaper and its no longer a threat and everyone can resume their oblivious lifestyles.

You couldn't fly an unfamiliar plane across USA skies 10 years ago without citizens still talking about it today, there is no way you're going to calm the fears of Millions of aliens after a giant invasion. Its just poor writing to advance ME2's plot.

It is poor plotting. DA may have had the generic fantasy elements, but its plot is a hundred times more convincing than Mass Effect. By now the story and lore of ME3 is swiss cheese.

[marshalleck]

Savber100 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

So we're relying on old ME2's preview and interviews to prove that we have found plotholes within ME2 before the third chapter of a 3-part story has been released... Huh...  <_<

I never called it a plot hole. In fact I said it's not a plot hole.  My second post on the first page:

marshalleck wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

Mordin says the council denies the Reaper threat to avoid panic, not because they don't believe it.

Which explains why they deny it to Shepard's face in the privacy of the ambassador/councilor quarters, over channels that are surely secured.

/sarcasm

It's not a plot hole though. It's just more bad writing. Bioware wanted the player to feel cut-off from their allies in ME2, to make it more grimdark. So they passed the Council the idiot ball and rolled back all the progress players could have made with them in ME1. 

All right... change my words from "plothole" to "bad writing" 

If this was a standalone game, I would have agreed but is it that far-fetched to think that Bioware might be preparing for several big twist for ME3 with possible twists like TIM believing Shepard is indoctrinated or Council is hiding something from Shepard? If this happens and the writers does it right, would this still be considered as "bad writing"?

I'm not going to excuse weaknesses in the story based on some conjecture that maybe someday it will all make sense. Call it politicians being politicians all you want, one look at Sovereign's size, composition, and capabilities should be enough to confirm that it's not a geth construct. Presumably there was actual geth wreckage to compare to, yeah? 

Whether Sovereign was an AI or just a warship is immaterial to the fact that its very existence and capabilities represent a significant threat to Council species. If some species built one, they could have built more. That's not something you just ignore once it's no longer in your face. Politicians can be major ****s, I agree, but very few individuals are obtuse to such a degree, and it's certainly unlikely that someone so utterly naive and incapable of basic threat analysis would be able to survive into adulthood, much less politically maneuver their way into a Council seat. Come on. As Wrex says, "don't ****** in my ear and tell me it's raining."

Neither Bioware nor any other developer get points for potential. I am not interested in evaluating what the story could be; I'm interested in what it is.

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:35 .

[Someone With Mass]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah, this is just poor writing. I cringe when I have to think about the plot holes and inconsistencies, but it is very real.

The idea of not spreading panic is bull. Sovereign just stomped and lasered the **** out of the Citadel, and then his guts rained down upon Millions of survivors. And the council successfully concinvced them A) its not a reaper and its no longer a threat and everyone can resume their oblivious lifestyles.

You couldn't fly an unfamiliar plane across USA skies 10 years ago without citizens still talking about it today, there is no way you're going to calm the fears of Millions of aliens after a giant invasion. Its just poor writing to advance ME2's plot.

I don't think every single one of those people know what a Reaper is, or what they look like. So if the Council says it's something the geth created, people are going to believe it, because they don't know any better.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really? REALLY?

No matter who builds a computer, it's going to be built out of complex components and multiple materials, as it has a complex function and purpose.
It's basic common sense at work here.

Common sense? In a science fiction game? Right...

Common sense is something you want to have in every piece of fiction.
If you prefer lack of common sense, then why not have Sheppard just stare at the wall while the Reapers invade, and try to eat trough his ass while at it. Hey, it doesn't have to make sense, right?