174 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

Luc0s wrote...

I perfectly understand atheism just fine. Atheism is the lack of believe in any god or deity. What's not to understand about it?

No, atheism does not mean "believing that god does not exist", atheism means "lack of belief in god(s)". That's the most modern and the currently most common accepted definition of atheism.

Let's make the distinction between "strong" and "weak" atheism. Your claim is that atheism is weak atheism, full stop, and that's not the case. Not believing in a deity does not mean rejecting the idea that a deity can exist. The currently most common accepted definition of atheism is exclusively "strong" atheism, while "weak" atheism is synonomous with the much preferred term "agnosticism."

[Dave of Canada]

Luc0s wrote...

I have no idea either. But you can still believe one way or the other if you give it some thought.

I used to consider myself religious, I gave it some thought and reflected upon all my religious teachings from childhood mixed with my life experiences and now I'm agnostic. Does this mean I don't exist?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:30 .

[mesmerizedish]

MightySword wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
If it's in-game, then you're playing the game. I think they call it Build Mode in TS3? You're still playing the game in Build Mode.

But it's a different "state" of the game and completely seperated from playing "your character". The argument here is that the character you playing is not the one altering the world, you are. Meaning it's the same as NWN, when you put down a castle in NWN, it wasn't your character doing it.

But I'm spending my character's money. My character is making these purchases. If you mean to say that it's not my character who's doing it because there aren't animations to show my character putting up wallpaper, that's just asburd. It's a game, so everything is an abstraction.

[mesmerizedish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I have no idea either. But you can still believe one way or the other if you give it some thought.

I used to consider myself religious, I gave it some thought and reflected upon all my religious teachings from childhood mixed with my life experiences and now I'm agnostic. Does this mean I don't exist?

No, but apparently you're a liar.

[Dave of Canada]

Luc0s wrote...

How would you describe your agnosticism?

I don't sit one side or the other, I view a higher deity as being an unknown factor that no one can know for certain of it's existance or non-existance. Which essentially falls into agnosticism 101.

[Dave of Canada]

Luc0s wrote...

Yes, but I didn't ask what you KNOW or think you can know. I asked what you BELIEVE.

What do you BELIEVE? Do you believe god(s) exist or not?


knowing =/= believing

I believe that there's no way to truly know.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .

[mesmerizedish]

Luc0s wrote...

weak atheism =/= agnosticism.

Agnosticism is the belief that you don't know if God exists, or a stronger position within agnosticism is the belief that you CAN'T know if God exists.

However, "knowing" and "believing" are two different things.

I don't know if god exists. I even believe I can't know if god exists. But if you ask me: "do you BELIEVE god exists?" my answer would be: "No."


What does that make me? That makes me a agnostic atheist, or a "weak atheist" as you prefer to call it.

angnostic atheism = weak atheism


Also, strong atheists are people who claim they "know" god does not exist. Strong atheism would be gnostic atheism.

weak atheism = I don't believe in god / I believe god doesn't exist
strong atheism = There is no god / I know god doesn't exist

You're putting too wide a gap between "knowledge" and "belief." To any given person, they're identical. If I claim not to "know" something, I accept that it might not be true. If I accept that it might not be true, I don't really believe it.

Beliefs can only be labeled "knowledge" by an omniscient entity, because all knowledge is is those beliefs that overlap with truth.

If I believe in God, I know God exists. If I believe there is no God, I know God doesn't. If I accept that either position could be wrong, I don't believe either, and I'm an agnostic.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:41 .

[jlb524]

Luc0s wrote...

weak atheism = I don't believe in god / I believe god doesn't exist
strong atheism = There is no god / I know god doesn't exist

Belief is thinking a proposition is true.

Knowledge is justified true belief.  I don't think anyone can claim knowledge that God exists or does not because there's no justification for either.

By that definition, weak and strong atheism are really the same thing.

[mesmerizedish]

Luc0s wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Yes, but I didn't ask what you KNOW or think you can know. I asked what you BELIEVE.

What do you BELIEVE? Do you believe god(s) exist or not?


knowing =/= believing

I believe that there's no way to truly know.

You still didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask if you truly know if god does or doesn't exist. I asked if you believe god does or doesn't exist.

Do you believe god exists or not?


Please just answer the question with a yes or no.

It's not a yes or no question. As I said, it's not a binary.

[MightySword]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MightySword wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
If it's in-game, then you're playing the game. I think they call it Build Mode in TS3? You're still playing the game in Build Mode.

But it's a different "state" of the game and completely seperated from playing "your character". The argument here is that the character you playing is not the one altering the world, you are. Meaning it's the same as NWN, when you put down a castle in NWN, it wasn't your character doing it.

But I'm spending my character's money. My character is making these purchases. If you mean to say that it's not my character who's doing it because there aren't animations to show my character putting up wallpaper, that's just asburd. It's a game, so everything is an abstraction.

Uhm ... that's why I'm not talking about the buymode or build mode specifically. If you do it on "your sim", than that's not your playing god, just still RPing without the animation to carry it. And I already mentioned that this is not unheard of in RPG. Again, the elderscroll series as an example let your character buy and upgrade house as well as furniture.

What the "God" mod means is the ability to change the gameworld and the neighborhood like a world editor. And this is done seperatly from your sim, the buy and build mode when you altering your neighbor has no impact on your sim.

[whykikyouwhy]

Luc0s wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Yes, but I didn't ask what you KNOW or think you can know. I asked what you BELIEVE.

What do you BELIEVE? Do you believe god(s) exist or not?


knowing =/= believing

I believe that there's no way to truly know.

You still didn't answer my question.

I didn't ask if you truly know if god does or doesn't exist. I asked if you believe god does or doesn't exist.

Do you believe god exists or not?


Please just answer the question with a yes or no.

Are you asking if the forumites here believe "God" (capital G) exists, or "a god" exists? And which god is it? Is it a singular god? What if a person only believes in some gods within a specific pantheon?

Just curious. For clarification and all.

[mesmerizedish]

MightySword wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MightySword wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
If it's in-game, then you're playing the game. I think they call it Build Mode in TS3? You're still playing the game in Build Mode.

But it's a different "state" of the game and completely seperated from playing "your character". The argument here is that the character you playing is not the one altering the world, you are. Meaning it's the same as NWN, when you put down a castle in NWN, it wasn't your character doing it.

But I'm spending my character's money. My character is making these purchases. If you mean to say that it's not my character who's doing it because there aren't animations to show my character putting up wallpaper, that's just asburd. It's a game, so everything is an abstraction.

Uhm ... that's why I'm not talking about the buymode or build mode specifically. If you do it on "your sim", than that's not your playing god, just still RPing without the animation to carry it. And I already mentioned that this is not unheard of in RPG. Again, the elderscroll series as an example let your character buy and upgrade house as well as furniture.

What the "God" mod means is the ability to change the gameworld and the neighborhood like a world editor. And this is done seperatly from your sim, the buy and build mode when you altering your neighbor has no impact on your sim.

Ah, I misunderstood which mode you were talking about. Also, I have no clue what the premise of the discussion is I'm a bit distracted by people who have epistemology wrong.

[Dave of Canada]

Luc0s wrote...

I didn't ask if you truly know if god does or doesn't exist. I asked if you believe god does or doesn't exist.

And it isn't that simple, by ignoring the "maybe" option you're removing some of the aspects from agnosticism. I'd always answer with "maybe" and forcing me to pick yes or no (while I don't believe either side) is simply responding to you an answer you desire (and proves your point).

I believe that there's no way to truly know if god exists or not, I don't believe in god and I don't believe that god doesn't exist. I'm on the fence and I have no leanings on either side. I believe that we can't make an informed decision because there's no knowledge to support either side.

By dismissing that I can't be in the middle, you're dismissing my "belief". I can't answer yes or no, it's not an answer I believe in.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:49 .

[jlb524]

Luc0s wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

elief is thinking a proposition is true.

Knowledge is justified true belief.  I don't think anyone can claim knowledge that God exists or does not because there's no justification for either.

By that definition, weak and strong atheism are really the same thing.

No, because strong atheists claim to know that god doesn't exist.

Of course you and I both understand these strong atheists are wrong and maybe a littlebit deluded, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

Same goes for theists. Some people dare to say they KNOW god exists. Of course you and I both understand these strong theists are wrong and maybe a bit deluded, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

I'm still not sure if the distinction can be made as it all boils down to a belief and not actual knowledge.  People throw around the word 'knowledge' to make it sound better...but what they actually possess is still a belief and not knowledge b/c their claims cannot be justified.

[mesmerizedish]

Luc0s wrote...

No, because strong atheists claim to know that god doesn't exist.

Of course you and I both understand these strong atheists are wrong and maybe a littlebit deluded, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

Same goes for theists. Some people dare to say they KNOW god exists. Of course you and I both understand these strong theists are wrong and maybe a bit deluded, but that doesn't stop them from claiming it.

Maybe this will help you:



Whether you call it "knowledge" or "belief," it's the exact same thing to you, since there's no absolute justification for the belief. But if you believe it, then you believe that it overlaps with truth. If you believe it overlaps with truth, then you claim to know it.

Claiming to know something and claiming to believe something are identical from the PoV of the claimant. If you claim not to know it, then you don't believe it.

[jlb524]

Luc0s wrote...

It IS a binary.

Just like the question "Are the rooms in your wall black?" can only be answered with a binary.

Either the walls in your room are black, or they are a different color, which would mean they aren't black.

So either the answer to the question is "yes" or the answer to the question is "no".

The colors of the room can be proven to be black or not black though...so your statement "The walls are black" would be knowledge as it's justifiable and not simply a belief...it would be a justifiable true belief...i.e., knowledge.

The same cannot be said of the existence of a diety.

Modifié par jlb524, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .