29 réponses à ce sujet

[Mandamus Le Noir]

Hi guys,

this is my first post on these forums, so I hope I'm posting this in the correct section

I played through NwN 2 OC back in 2007 and I had a lot of fun, but I did have the impression that some elements seemed a bit rushed, or unfinished.

I've been interested in playing it again but after reading some random pages over at the NwN 2 Wiki I've learnt that there supposedly was a lot of content cut from this game, much like KotOR 2. But I'm not sure I understand correctly what is meant by deleted content, I was hoping some of you might be willing to explain it for me a little more?



1) What is actually meant by "cut" content? Is it content simply disabled but technically included in the game, stuff that was not coded but that has some leftover files, things implied but never developped? A mix of all that?


2) To what extent could it be added back into the OC? I assume this can achieved with the toolset/editor, but are there enough voice files left for this to happen? And how much would actually have to be "created" to connect the deleted content with the rest of the OC?


3) Would it be allowed/legal/tolerated by Obsidian/Atari?


4) Has this already been done? I have noticed mods such as NwN 2 Plot fixes and the Romance Pack but they seem to go beyond fixing stuff and adding deleted content and add completely new custom content or change random elements in the OC (like the gender swap thing in Plot Fixes?)


5) Is there a comprehensive list of alleged cut content? I have found mentions here and there of specific deleted scenes, but I can't seem to find a more complete list.


Thanks in advance for answers to any of these questions I find the notion of deleted content fascinating, I may mess around with the OC modules on my own to dig it up and see if I can enable some of it in my own game.

Modifié par Mandamus Le Noir, 20 juillet 2011 - 05:30 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Mandamus Le Noir wrote...

Hi guys,

this is my first post on these forums, so I hope I'm posting this in the correct section

I played through NwN 2 OC back in 2007 and I had a lot of fun, but I did have the impression that some elements seemed a bit rushed, or unfinished.

I've been interested in playing it again but after reading some random pages over at the NwN 2 Wiki I've learnt that there supposedly was a lot of content cut from this game, much like KotOR 2. But I'm not sure I understand correctly what is meant by deleted content, I was hoping some of you might be willing to explain it for me a little more?

1) What is actually meant by "cut" content? Is it content simply disabled but technically included in the game, stuff that was not coded but that has some leftover files, things implied but never developped? A mix of all that?

Mixture, the devs just removed enough so folks did not have to deal with a buggy mess, there are features from NWN1 still in it, as well as things atari did not like. They also rushed in their development due to Atari, NWN2 was started when dragon age was and dragon age just came out last year if that is any comparison. I am amazed how good it was with how much time they had to work on it.

2) To what extent could it be added back into the OC? I assume this can achieved with the toolset/editor, but are there enough voice files left for this to happen? And how much would actually have to be "created" to connect the deleted content with the rest of the OC?

Most of it actually has been that can be easily ( reeron added a few missing spells for example ). This is probably the most moddable game around, with it's only competition being NWN1 in that regard. Frankly it just is not that much, if you want new content you should just get Kaedrins PRC, it's higher quality than what comes with the OC, and has far more content than what was cut.

Much of the cut content is basically cut because it needs major work to make it happen properly. Counterspelling for example i readded, but it's completely new content, the original feature was a complete mess in NWN1, and often will go completely crazy.

You should take a look at the OC makeover, which actually took working content from later expansions and put it in the OC.

3) Would it be allowed/legal/tolerated by Obsidian/Atari?

That is what this game is all about, see the scripting forum, the custom content forum, the tools forum, the modules forum, all of those focus on just doing this sort of thing. You cannot really change the actual modules and redistribute them, but you can change the 2da files, scripts. Just don't sell it, and generally the community shares freely ( i use scripts and things from others and vice versa in my content, asking permission of course, but everyone is sharing except for a very small minority )

4) Has this already been done? I have noticed mods such as NwN 2 Plot fixes and the Romance Pack but they seem to go beyond fixing stuff and adding deleted content and add completely new custom content or change random elements in the OC (like the gender swap thing in Plot Fixes?)

Yes the vault is full of this. The reason it goes beyond just readding what was cut is that we have the same tools as the devs are using. Most things in the modules of the OC are not being changed because they are mostly copyrighted, so it would be hard to change the story, or re-enable things in those modules as you'd not be able to distribute new copies of the OC modules.

Since there generally is a reason things were cut, the process for enabling it is generally the same as it would be for adding that content to the game. A few things like great club, ghostwise halfling, are simple, the spells were just adding icons and re-enabling scripts, but those also create their own issues.

5) Is there a comprehensive list of alleged cut content? I have found mentions here and there of specific deleted scenes, but I can't seem to find a more complete list.

No, it's not really seen as important and the things easy to add are already done, harder things require major efforts, most people just create new content. By the time you do what is needed to "readd" content, you are really creating new content. There also is the issue of compatibility, most users really like kaedrins stuff, which is changing the same files. It becomes a choice of whose content you are using in these cases.

( Note that Kaedrin was discussing with the devs about actually doing classes for expansions, and there has been a lot of community content done by rpgplayer1, tonyK and others which you are using in the game. This is not stuff which is done by amateurs but generally of higher quality than comes with the game. Kaedrin actually fixes a few major issues like polymorph, and fixes numerous bugs in his content. )

Thanks in advance for answers to any of these questions I find the notion of deleted content fascinating, I may mess around with the OC modules on my own to dig it up and see if I can enable some of it in my own game.

I would suggest getting Kaedrins class pack, TonyK's AI, and taking a look at what they add. Take a look at the other forums here as well for info on how to do things and the like.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 20 juillet 2011 - 06:59 .

[Mandamus Le Noir]

Thank you for the long reply, I appreciate it

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Mixture, the devs just removed enough so folks did not have to deal with a buggy mess, there are features from NWN1 still in it, as well as things atari did not like. They also rushed in their development due to Atari, NWN2 was started when dragon age was and dragon age just came out last year if that is any comparison. I am amazed how good it was with how much time they had to work on it.

Thanks for clearing this up. It's pretty sad they had to rush in their work but I agree the game turned out to be fine in spite of it.

Most of it actually has been that can be easily ( reeron added a few missing spells for example ). This is probably the most moddable game around, with it's only competition being NWN1 in that regard. Frankly it just is not that much, if you want new content you should just get Kaedrins PRC, it's higher quality than what comes with the OC, and has far more content than what was cut.

Much of the cut content is basically cut because it needs major work to make it happen properly. Counterspelling for example i readded, but it's completely new content, the original feature was a complete mess in NWN1, and often will go completely crazy.

You should take a look at the OC makeover, which actually took working content from later expansions and put it in the OC.

Interesting, but to be honest I'm less interested in cut gameplay content than in the possibility of polishing the existing quests and readding deleted cut scenes to make the OC feel more "finished" story wise.

That is what this game is all about, see the scripting forum, the custom content forum, the tools forum, the modules forum, all of those focus on just doing this sort of thing. You cannot really change the actual modules and redistribute them, but you can change the 2da files, scripts. Just don't sell it, and generally the community shares freely ( i use scripts and things from others and vice versa in my content, asking permission of course, but everyone is sharing except for a very small minority )

Yes the vault is full of this. The reason it goes beyond just
readding what was cut is that we have the same tools as the devs are
using. Most things in the modules of the OC are not being changed
because they are mostly copyrighted, so it would be hard to change the
story, or re-enable things in those modules as you'd not be able to
distribute new copies of the OC modules.

It's good to know the community is based on sharing, but it is disappointing that the official modules themselves cannot be altered and re released, although I understand the reasons why that is. Oh well, I can alter the modules for myself
I suppose the problem is that ideally I'd more interested in expanding the existing official modules and readding deleted quests rather than creating entirely new modules/adventures, which is what NwN 2 modding seems to be more focused on. I have modded Morrowind, where it is very easy to make new quests/locations for the official "world", that's probably why I'd like to do that with NwN 2.

No, it's not really seen as important and the things easy to add are
already done, harder things require major efforts, most people just
create new content. By the time you do what is needed to "readd"
content, you are really creating new content. There also is the issue of
compatibility, most users really like kaedrins stuff, which is changing
the same files. It becomes a choice of whose content you are using in
these cases.

( Note that Kaedrin was discussing with the devs
about actually doing classes for expansions, and there has been a lot of
community content done by rpgplayer1, tonyK and others which you are
using in the game. This is not stuff which is done by amateurs but
generally of higher quality than comes with the game. Kaedrin actually
fixes a few major issues like polymorph, and fixes numerous bugs in his
content. )

Well new high quality content is more than welcome and I appreciate it but I'm more interested (in this thread) in modifying the OC to have it more polished, I'm less interested in new classes and gameplay fixes. They sure look interesting, though. I'm more thinking of doing something similar to the Sith Lords Restoration Project (on my own) for this game, for my personal use.

I would suggest getting Kaedrins class pack, TonyK's AI, and taking a look at what they add. Take a look at the other forums here as well for info on how to do things and the like.

Thank you, I will!


edit: hmm, I repeat myself a lot in my reply, sorry about that. I'm not good at writing concise posts

Modifié par Mandamus Le Noir, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

It's just your priority really. Most other games are really hard to mod, and about the only thing you can do is additions to the main story. Because of this, that is what people coming from other games kind of want to do, something easy enough for them to handle, they only have to fix one thing and it improves the basic game. After folks play in the toolset for a bit, they start realizing it's pretty easy to just do things from scratch.

You could also do new stories based on areas in the OC, covering the aftermath, or prequels.

I'd say the project closest to what you are doing is the OC makeover ( http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=393 ), anything which you could share, well it would be best if it was put into that package so end users can just install one thing. If you come up with something cool, relay it to Kaldor who can do QA testing and integrate it, and perhaps help you improve whatever it is you did.

[Mandamus Le Noir]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

It's just your priority really. Most other games are really hard to mod, and about the only thing you can do is additions to the main story. Because of this, that is what people coming from other games kind of want to do, something easy enough for them to handle, they only have to fix one thing and it improves the basic game. After folks play in the toolset for a bit, they start realizing it's pretty easy to just do things from scratch.

You could also do new stories based on areas in the OC, covering the aftermath, or prequels.

Yes that's probably my problem, modding this game seems to be very different than modding Bethesda games and I haven't quite wrapped my head around this yet.

I'd say the project closest to what you are doing is the OC makeover ( http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=393 ), anything which you could share, well it would be best if it was put into that package so end users can just install one thing. If you come up with something cool, relay it to Kaldor who can do QA testing and integrate it, and perhaps help you improve whatever it is you did.

If I ever manage to create something worth releasing I'll be sure to do that, this makeover seems very professionally done. For now I'll have to read quite a few tutorials before being able to do anything of interest to others.

I'm not even sure I can pull it off, I'm more of a modeler/texturer myself, scripts are not my forte. Ah well, thanks for all the help, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my (probably frequently asked) questions. I'll have fun learning how to mod NwN 2 regardless of my results from editing the OC

Modifié par Mandamus Le Noir, 21 juillet 2011 - 08:56 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

I would suggest just making an area to begin with, not even with the goal of making it look good but more of how to just use the toolset. Then see if you can add creatures and then just go in game and see what happens when you attack them.

Starting from a blank area means everything there is something you did, that means it will be less complicated. It will allow you to learn the toolset.

The OC will have quite a few things which make things more complicated. Unless you understand many different things, it can get confusing when people get really advanced. It also does not do many things the best possible way and isn't a great role model for how you should do things, it's usually better to learn from the community members who have become experts in each area, and who have already struggled with what you are looking at. ( and of course if you study Kaldors stuff, and ask him how and why he did xyz, well that is very useful to you )

The vault has tutorials, and i put up some things as well here which should help. http://nwcitadel.for...splay.php?f=140 ( nothing here is specific to PW's )

Up to you what you focus on of course, it just helps to keep your options open.

( if you are a modeler, Hellfire_RWS from http://www.rwscreations.com can set you to work doing some pretty nifty things as well, he's got animation rigs and is doing riding, flying, swimming, and needs all the help he can get. You should send him a PM or talk to him in IRC and discuss things with him, as what he is doing is very amazing. I hear he does not like texturing that much. )

[ottery]

I think that one of the reasons the OC has an incomplete feel is the development history - the lead designer (Ferret Baudoin, also of DA: Awakening fame) left and the replacement (JE Sawyer) came in and tried to dramatically simplify a lot of the plans to get the game out on time. At least, that's what I've gathered from seeing snippets in interviews.

I don't have any technical knowledge, and don't know how much of the coding for cut content is left. The dialog file has some missing conversations and references to missing quests and places. Nothing too major - not on a KotoR2 scale. There's:

- the Privy Man quest
- Casavir/Moonstone Mask quest
- possible Sand quest
- mention of Red Fallows Watch (Bishop's place of origin)
- some kind of cave in act three
- different introduction for Grobnar
- backstory about the original Shadow War
- meeting survivors from West Harbour (possibly a quest)
- post-attack conversations in West Harbour
- Shandra conversations

Personally, I doubt that most of that is recoverable. The conversation with the Privy Man might be, since his character is included in the toolset. I doubt that the associated quest to discover the Tome of Ilka-whatsit is, however. It would have involved going into the sewers and maybe fighting some sort of bad guy lich.

It's pretty clear that the devs meant Mephasm to be Neeshka's ancestor, but they never took that further. Maybe it was meant to be a kind of Chekhov's gun for a future expansion.

[I_Raps]

ottery wrote...
It's pretty clear that the devs meant Mephasm to be Neeshka's ancestor, but they never took that further. Maybe it was meant to be a kind of Chekhov's gun for a future expansion.

I thought that briefly, but it doesn't add up.  Mephasm is a devil, Neeshka is demonic - not likely, without some significant twists and turns.  There would have to be one rather unique creature in between, and then the human element thrown in. 

But since we're on the subject of a unique creature as the tiefling's ancestor, that brings me to my own thinking - that Neeshka and Shandra are cousins.

Modifié par I_Raps, 24 juillet 2011 - 06:38 .

[The Fred]

Is Neeshka demonic? I thought you only needed fiendish blood (of any kind) to be a Tiefling? I also seem to remember that there's some dialogue between them if you take her with you when you meet him (don't think I did though, she's annoying as hell and useless to boot...).

[kamal_]

The Fred wrote...

Is Neeshka demonic? I thought you only needed fiendish blood (of any kind) to be a Tiefling? I also seem to remember that there's some dialogue between them if you take her with you when you meet him (don't think I did though, she's annoying as hell and useless to boot...).

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Neeshka
Last paragraph. She's apparently batezu descended, so devil, not demon. Also Mephasm was involved with her lineage, though he may not be actually related.

[I_Raps]

Qara: Is that really the best your demon blood can squeeze out, tail for brains?

Neeshka: Usually they call me "thief", "cursed one", "demon wench", "rat-child", "goat-girl", the list goes on. You'd think "Neeshka" wasn't that hard to remember.
Player: You mean you get those insults all the time?
Neeshka: It's not too bad, I mean, all those things are true.

Player: Neeshka - that's an odd name.
Neeshka: I'm told it means something in the Lower Planes, but since I don't get down there much... although, obviously, good old grandpa made a habit of coming up there for the night life, if you, uh, get my meaning.
Player: So you're a tiefling?
Neeshka: Yeah, but shhh - don't tell anyone, I wouldn't want anybody else to figure it out - I mean, aside from the horns. And the traces of demon blood.

Khelgar Ironfist: Wh-what the hells is this? First, the demon, now this willow-thin slip of an elf? Let's invite all the realms! Make a grand army, tromping through the wilderness! "Enemies, come get us! Here we arrre!"

...

Plus, she seems pretty Chaotic to me. Everybody seems to think she's demonic, including she herself. Against that, we have Baalbison's nose.  Baalbison's the same demon who calls your male character female.  Hmmm.

It's pretty clear her background is unusual to say the least.  Ammon Jerro-ish, in fact.

Modifié par I_Raps, 25 juillet 2011 - 12:17 .

[kamal_]

I_Raps wrote...

Qara: Is that really the best your demon blood can squeeze out, tail for brains?

Neeshka: Usually they call me "thief", "cursed one", "demon wench", "rat-child", "goat-girl", the list goes on. You'd think "Neeshka" wasn't that hard to remember.
Player: You mean you get those insults all the time?
Neeshka: It's not too bad, I mean, all those things are true.

Player: Neeshka - that's an odd name.
Neeshka: I'm told it means something in the Lower Planes, but since I don't get down there much... although, obviously, good old grandpa made a habit of coming up there for the night life, if you, uh, get my meaning.
Player: So you're a tiefling?
Neeshka: Yeah, but shhh - don't tell anyone, I wouldn't want anybody else to figure it out - I mean, aside from the horns. And the traces of demon blood.

Khelgar Ironfist: Wh-what the hells is this? First, the demon, now this willow-thin slip of an elf? Let's invite all the realms! Make a grand army, tromping through the wilderness! "Enemies, come get us! Here we arrre!"

...

Plus, she seems pretty Chaotic to me. Everybody seems to think she's demonic, including she herself. Against that, we have Baalbison's nose.  Baalbison's the same demon who calls your male character female.  Hmmm.

It's pretty clear her background is unusual to say the least.  Ammon Jerro-ish, in fact.

All I have to go on is the wiki. And the average prime would probably think of anything lower planes as "demon". Yes, she does seem chaotic, but she's officially neutral according to the wiki, if the wiki's right and she's neutral, then the neutrality is easier explained as neutral because it trended away from lawful with her chaotic actions, rather than neutral coming from chaotic (which would mean more and more lawful behaviors).

[Axe_Edge]

 Demonic or Devilish, my PCs don't care.  Neeshka eases the wait for Kaelyn's appearance.

[ottery]

  Six posts in the last few hours. Clearly to make a thread take off in this forum all you have to do is mention Neeshka. 

Modifié par ottery, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:42 .

[kevL]

Neeshka? khelgar wants her so bad .......

[I_Raps]

ottery wrote...

  Six posts in the last few hours. Clearly to make a thread take off in this forum all you have to do is mention Neeshka. 

Neeshka's a hottie!  What can we say?

kevL wrote...

Neeshka? khelgar wants her so bad .......

That's pretty evident, too.  The things she can do with that tail...

Modifié par I_Raps, 25 juillet 2011 - 06:23 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

<Shameless plug>
The MotB Makeover SoZ Edition allows the possibility of adventuring with Neeshka once again. Tail and all.
</Shameless plug>

[Mandamus Le Noir]

(off topic: isn't there a way to preview a post before submitting it? I keep looking for one but so far no luck)

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

snip

Wow thanks for all the suggestions! (and sorry for the late reply)

Thank you for the link, Neverwinter Citadel Project seems to have a lot of interesting tutorials to get started on scripting. I think I'll just do what you suggested, and start by making a new area just to see how it works, and then move on from there.

Thanks for the warning concerning the scripts from the OC, I learnt how to mod Morrowind from looking at Bethesda's work, I'll be sure not to do that here.

As for modeling, I'll see. I'd like to try and convert a few hair meshes I made for Morrowind, just to see if it is an easy process.

ottery wrote...

snip

Thank you for the post and the list, that's interesting The alternative introduction for Grobnar sounds intriguing, to be honest I never liked how the character was introduced in the OC, it didn't feel very natural. It's interesting to know that not as much content was cut from NwN2 than from KotOR 2, since I had read some comments on various places that seemed to imply otherwise. People tend to exagerate that kind of things I suppose.


I didn't expect to see so many posts about Neeshka! I love the character as well, especially when she makes fun of Elanee (never liked that character). Personally I kind of like how her origins are left ambiguous, maybe a definite answer to that question was not included in the game on purpose, I like how there are only hints for us to build theories upon.

Modifié par Mandamus Le Noir, 25 juillet 2011 - 11:17 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Mandamus Le Noir wrote...
As for modeling, I'll see. I'd like to try and convert a few hair meshes I made for Morrowind, just to see if it is an easy process.

I would talk to hellfire as he's available and when you get to the point when you need to do that, (IRC channel generally), and can tell you what issues are going and can make the process as easy as it can be. Main issue is the devs used 3DSMax 8, and the best pipeline for doing things is based on that older version. ( It's required for the most advanced things that are done )

I think heads and hair are much easier and other versions, blender, etc are used for them.

I cannot over emphasize the value of using the IRC channel, having a direct conversations about how you should do things, or when you run into a problem, or they just link to a webpage that shows how to deal with the given problem, that just reduces the headaches. There is a definite correlation between who hangs out in that channel and who is releasing the content for the game.

[Giantevilhead]

A lot of the companion stuff definitely got cut.

There's the whole thing about Sand being forced out of the merchant district by Qara's father and Qara hiding her true power.

There's a lot of dialogue that suggest Ammon Jerro was either supposed to be a wizard or sorcerer, or maybe an eldritch theurge.

Not to mention how several characters just stopped getting any kind of character development at certain points in the game.

[The Fred]

Mandamus Le Noir wrote...
I didn't expect to see so many posts about Neeshka! I love the character as well, especially when she makes fun of Elanee (never liked that character).

OK so maybe I'm just team Elanee rather than team Neeshka but despite the former's stalkerish tendancies, I think I'd rather take her over the annoying, arrogant, over-freckled tiefling girl (whether demonic or devilish) especially given that she doesn't die so often. Maybe it's just me, but I found her really annoying.

I think it's also possible that the devs didn't even know which her ancestry was. When I think of fiends, demons come to mind before devils anyway, so a lot of people (both in-game characters and perhaps the writers themselves) might just assume. I suppose if the content we think was cut hadn't have been, we might know, but as it is I guess it's just one of nature's mysteries.

[Yrkoon]

I_Raps wrote...

Qara: Is that really the best your demon blood can squeeze out, tail for brains?

Neeshka: Usually they call me "thief", "cursed one", "demon wench", "rat-child", "goat-girl", the list goes on. You'd think "Neeshka" wasn't that hard to remember.
Player: You mean you get those insults all the time?
Neeshka: It's not too bad, I mean, all those things are true.

Player: Neeshka - that's an odd name.
Neeshka: I'm told it means something in the Lower Planes, but since I don't get down there much... although, obviously, good old grandpa made a habit of coming up there for the night life, if you, uh, get my meaning.
Player: So you're a tiefling?
Neeshka: Yeah, but shhh - don't tell anyone, I wouldn't want anybody else to figure it out - I mean, aside from the horns. And the traces of demon blood.

Khelgar Ironfist: Wh-what the hells is this? First, the demon, now this willow-thin slip of an elf? Let's invite all the realms! Make a grand army, tromping through the wilderness! "Enemies, come get us! Here we arrre!"

...

Plus, she seems pretty Chaotic to me. Everybody seems to think she's demonic, including she herself. Against that, we have Baalbison's nose.  Baalbison's the same demon who calls your male character female.  Hmmm.

It's pretty clear her background is unusual to say the least.  Ammon Jerro-ish, in fact.

  And even aside from alignment and companion dialogues,  Devil and Human mixing produces  *Cambions*, not tieflings.     But Neeshka is a tiefling.

Still, that doesn't explain the strange dialogue between Mephasm  and Neeshka.  He clearly speaks to her in a personal, almost fatherlike manner, at one point even asking her to appreciate the "value" of their meetings.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 31 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .

[mungbean]

Is there any earlier release version of Kaedrin's PrC pack which works without SoZ? Anybody got a link for that?

[painofdungeoneternal]

You can get the full game, with all expansions and patches on steam for $19.99 - if you wait it's only $9.99 as its often on sale.

Without SOZ, the custom classes end up getting buggy, not really something i think kaedrin can fix but more of a game bug. ( i think they think they are the restricted classes in SOZ ). It also is a lot harder to support those without expansions as a developer ( it's not even realistic ), especially when all new players are getting all of them by default.

On my pw i allow people to play without expansions, and besides some things like grey orcs being invisible if you don't have SOZ, it's not that much of a problem. I would think his latest version for SOZ will be giving you less bugs than using an old version. ( he is very good at improving his work and making it more solid over time )

[mungbean]

I ordered platinum online instead, much prefer dvd editions. Go figure, it cost less than half as much for a new copy of platinum than it does for SoZ on its own. Oh well, guess I've got two spare oc/motb dvd's now.

Now I'll have to go clean out my override and put in all the SoZ versions of the mods. Don't know if to thank you or kill you