295 réponses à ce sujet

[pizzapicante]

Yay another flame-war between DAO fans (my side) and the dirty, dirty DA2 fans side, seems it is the only thing the BSN is used for this days beyond help with the toolset.

[pizzapicante]

...and fanficts, I forgot fanficts, but I dont know how to edit...

[TEWR]

you just hit the edit button

[Sylvianus]

devSin wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

That's it. It was never said anything about the gameplay design, I think. It's a bit premature to think that Bioware is already fixed.

Go read all the various interviews and the few times Mike Laidlaw has come back to the forums (he's also affirmed that voiced protagonist is here to stay IIRC).

That's not to say they don't intend to bring some parts of Origins forward into future installments (or that they won't continue to change gameplay elements as needed).

But it's a bit disingenous to suggest that they haven't made it known that they're happy with the change in direction and that they intend to continue much the same in the future. You say it can change, and I agree that this is true, but I absolutely do not believe that will ever mean they return to something that plays more like Origins (than like Dragon Age II), and I have not seen them say anything that should lead other people to believe this.

I guess it depends on how you feel DA2 has actually been received. I personally don't think it's been received as poorly as some here would expect (indeed, as some here apparently hope for), but I imagine it'll be a long time before we find out (actually, we probably never will).

They were happy with their production with dao too, and they changed everything however. It means nothing.
The Mass Effect team loved the exploration for Mass Effect 2, but not the players. They decided to change.

Then I suggest nothing , only be careful to not establish as fact what is simply well received on the side of Bioware. As not to make false illusions. (For those who wan t) or already falling into criticism ( for those who do not want to.)

See the words of Mr. Elpers, they were really clear. And they are current unlike those of Mr Laildlaw.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:35 .

[Morroian]

devSin wrote...

Morroian wrote...

I dunno, if DA3 brought back tactical cam

I don't think you'll get back the tactical camera mode. Not ever. It's PC-only and imposes constraints on the art team that they apparently don't like. Maybe for AoE targeting (although, a modifier key that simply disables snapping to targets when held down would probably work just as well), but not as a mode you can just play in.

They could enable free camera movement even if it isn't isometric, they apparently have done to some extent on the console version, no-one has ever explained why that wasn't on the PC version. I think all those changes I mentioned are perfectly doable for DA3. And I forgot one as well add a subtitle of the full line for each dialogue option as you hover over it.

Modifié par Morroian, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[Cyne]

^adding a voiced PC toggle button should be easy enough

[jmadsen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DAO's squigglies look like some sort of weird fish monster...

looks like lips to me

[Firky]

I'm not getting Dragon Age:Origins from that drawing though. Are there 4 different paths through the game? Based on ... Origin stories? (There might be some merit to that, but they'd have to start seperately and converge at the end.)

Apart from some extra quests here and there, it's just really 4 (?) hubs, a couple of optional bits, and an ending - the same ending. The "consequences" really come from how you percieve events, like what happened to Connor, who is on the throne in Orzammar etc. I'd draw it is a straight line, with 6 seperate line beginnings, and four hubs to go and do, coming back to the one line.

Slightly on topic, did I read somewhere that what you do in the DLC might have some (presumably small) impact on DAII's plot? I wonder which act would be best to play it in.

[macrocarl]

@Finky Are you referring to the party banter that makes mention of it? I know I read that somewhere on here. Or something different?

[Morroian]

Firky wrote...

Slightly on topic, did I read somewhere that what you do in the DLC might have some (presumably small) impact on DAII's plot? I wonder which act would be best to play it in.

John Epler said that it has some plot flags that are carried back into the main game that will be used later in some way. I doubt that would be for the main game more likely future DLC. Aside from those plot flags it doesn't appear to have much integration with the main game.

I think he also said it would be best near the end of Act 1 or near the beginning of Act 3.

[Firky]

^ Aw. Still, interconnected story DLCs would be kinda cool.

Here is my Origins drawing. (We need a draw Origins thread. And, this drawing doesn't take into account things like Morrigan's choice etc, or different resolutions to each flower bulb, because that doesn't actually change the progression of the game, just your perception of Ferelden. But, it's the basic idea. Edit: Although it probably needs a few squiggles for optional sidequests and some kind of mess at the end for landsmeet.)



I think party banter reflecting choices, in DLC or the game, would be cool. I wonder if it would be easy to implement.

Edit: Also, I wonder why end of Act 1 or beginning of Act 3. I honestly can't think of why, unless it is better if sibling is still *spoiler*.  I was planning to play it in 2.

Modifié par Firky, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:43 .

[Morroian]

I guess there could be new party banter, that certainly would be nice, and fairly easy to implement I imagine.

[Imrahil_]

lobi wrote...

That first drawing reminds me more of BG1.  That was awesome.  I wish someone would make more games like that.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:13 .

[Corto81]

JohnEpler wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm not certain what was objectionable about the first statement. Certainly, if what you're looking for is essentially another Origins, well, this is still the same game at the core. We're not removing the voiced protagonist, we're not slowing down combat animations, we're not returning to the old art style. So, yes, if what you're hoping is that this DLC turns DA2 into Origins, then you will be disappointed.

Hooray! 

Well, let me clarify by saying that this is simply true of the DLC. I have no idea what our future plans are on the franchise, but anyone expecting a massive overhaul of these sorts of things in a DLC will be rather disappointed.

Fair enough, and reasonable.

However, I do hope you guys get together before delving into DA3 and see/add up (as personally detached as you can get) what style and type of game the RPG community wants more.

[Bryy_Miller]

DraCZeQQ wrote...
i dont get why other RPG making companies can be so mean! =(

I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or if you seriously think design decisions for multi-million dollar projects that take years to make are made out of spite.

[ARustyFirePlace]

thanks for the help bioware, you just saved me some cash.

[DraCZeQQ]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...
i dont get why other RPG making companies can be so mean! =(

I'm not sure if you are trying to be funny or if you seriously think design decisions for multi-million dollar projects that take years to make are made out of spite.

What? Me? Funny? On the interwebz? Nowai ... I was really suggesting that CD Project RED and Obsidian made awesome RPGs and DLCs on purpose!

[bEVEsthda]

devSin wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

This scares me a bit. I understand that, within context, he's talking about DA2 DLC but something in the back of my mind keeps making me think this is going to be the attitude the rest of the series is based on.

They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

If you can provide specifics about exactly what you feel Origins did so much better than Dragon Age II, then post that in the constructive criticism thread. But if you're crossing your fingers that DA2 will just be a bump in the road, soon to be forgotten, you're ignoring the obvious. They are *not* going back.

If you want something that you felt DA2 missed to actually be different in DA3, you need to tell them about that thing. If you're looking simply for Origins-style gameplay, you probably need to resign yourself to just playing Origins.

Oh, DA2 will most certainly be just a bump in the road. I don't think it will be exactly forgotten though. Atari's E.T. isn't exactly forgotten. The question is really if DA3 will join DA2 in that bump, and if the road will end there.
And I think BW has been very careful about not saying that DA3 will be like DA2. They are obviously far more cautious than the few DA2 fans here, who cling to fantasies about DA2 doing commercially well and having fan-audience of any significant size. These forums are not a congestion place for DA2 haters. Rather the opposite. Most of them left already. Only those who care, occasionally still drop in.

In my local game shop, DA:O and even BG is proudly displayed on the shelves. No trace of PC-DA2 and a few scattered PS3 and XB360 DA2 in the bargain bin for roughly about $10. Curious, I asked. The answer: "oh if you want that you better try mailorder. We won't stock it again". It's the same scene everywhere, retailers are forced to get rid of their stock at very low prices. DA2 is not popular and doesn't deserve to be. It sold in well thanks to DA:O. DA3 will not have that benefit. If Bioware seriously think that they will get away with making DA3 on the same recipe as DA2, they have something very harsh set up for themselves.

[AloraKast]

JohnEpler wrote...

Ahh, spin. It's not just for corporations!

I'm not certain what was objectionable about the first statement. Certainly, if what you're looking for is essentially another Origins, well, this is still the same game at the core. We're not removing the voiced protagonist, we're not slowing down combat animations, we're not returning to the old art style. So, yes, if what you're hoping is that this DLC turns DA2 into Origins, then you will be disappointed.

[...]

And I'm really not sure what you find objectionable about that last quote. Obviously, the primary audience for any DA2 DLC is people who enjoyed DA2. It'd be rather foolish to focus it on people who didn't like the game - that's not to say that we don't take the concerns of people who disliked aspects of DA2 into account. And that would be the second half of that statement - we're hoping that we can show things with Legacy that indicate we've seen what the fans felt strongly about and worked on improving those aspects. Obviously, not everyone's going to feel that what we do is enough. Some people will feel we didn't address their specific concern. But in the end, the evidence one way or another will be in the content we provide.

Have yet to go through all of the 10 or so pages of this thread. Also have not come across this being discussed anywhere else, so apologies if this has already been covered in detail elsewhere.

John, could you please reveal some more details or give more examples of what kind of fan feedback you tried to incorporate into this DLC? Of course, having to work within the defined boundaries of DA2, so like you said, things like the voiced protagonist and the art style would not be affected, but am curious as to other examples of the changes that were incorporated as a result of fan feedback.  I know that the recycled maps has already been mentioned and perhaps the wave mechanics but can you reveal (and perhaps discuss a bit more in depth) any more changes?

For me personally (and of course while operating within those already defined boundaries of DA2) the thing that stands out is the relationship aspect. I found the relationships (both romantic and otherwise) in DA2 to be lacking, shallow and ultimately unsatisfying. The companion characters, while interesting and with much potential, were left with that potential unrealized as I felt we were only allowed to skim the surface when trying to develop a relationship with said companions. Especially considering that the whole story spans 7 years, I would have thought that those relationships would be much more meaningful and developed than what we ultimately got. Because I was restricted in when and where I was able to converse with my companions, have any meaningful discussions with them and get to know them better, my relationships with them were similarly restricted.  I do believe that the characters are interesting with rich backgrounds but I felt we weren't allowed to explore them in any greater detail. I found that Varric was my best friend (and Varric is an awesome character) and that my most meaningful romantic relationship was with Fenris (he had the most heart, I found, even though leaving me for 3 years while remaining by my side to fight was really strange - I think he should have had that 'after' conversation much, much sooner than 3 years later). However, as great as those characters are I have to say that my (or rather Hawke's) relationships with them fell short of most of the relationships I experienced in Origins.

So that is what I'm wondernig about; whether there will be any more focus on the relationships to be found in this DLC or whether it's mainly a story driven DLC with some generic companion banter thrown in the mix. I truly believe that a solid story with a strong heart and personal connection outweighs any technical shortcomings or changes in art style or the fighting mechanism. I think that if DA2 allowed me to form that personal connection, the other elements that disagree with me wouldn't seem as bad. But I found that I cared little for most of my companions, my relationships with them were shallow and unfulfilling and, while Kirkwall was plagued by all sorts of disasters and literally burned around me, I couldn't care less about the plight of the city that was supposed to be my home for the last x years.

I suppose that is what I am looking for, whether from this DLC or any future expansion; that HEART that was missing from DA2.

[alex90c]

You're not going to get all that from a three hour DLC.

[TEWR]

@AloraKast: Luke Barrett said on another thread that they're working and looking into how to improve relationships with companions, like people wanting to give Merrill hugs.

[WilliamShatner]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@AloraKast: Luke Barrett said on another thread that they're working and looking into how to improve relationships with companions, like people wanting to give Merrill hugs.

What about a smack on the back of the head???

[TEWR]

God I hope not! Merrill is awesome.

[AloraKast]

Thanks Redux. That would really be awesome if they can pull it off. So many of those little moments were missing in DA2... Keeping my fingers crossed for future additions (whether relationship focussed DLC - now wouldn't that be amazing - or an expansion).

[LeBurns]

Firky wrote...

^ Aw. Still, interconnected story DLCs would be kinda cool.

Here is my Origins drawing. (We need a draw Origins thread. And, this drawing doesn't take into account things like Morrigan's choice etc, or different resolutions to each flower bulb, because that doesn't actually change the progression of the game, just your perception of Ferelden. But, it's the basic idea. Edit: Although it probably needs a few squiggles for optional sidequests and some kind of mess at the end for landsmeet.)



I think party banter reflecting choices, in DLC or the game, would be cool. I wonder if it would be easy to implement.

Edit: Also, I wonder why end of Act 1 or beginning of Act 3. I honestly can't think of why, unless it is better if sibling is still *spoiler*.  I was planning to play it in 2.

What about the ending where your Warden is dead?  Even in the ending DAO had options and choices that made it a MUCH deeper game.