295 réponses à ce sujet

[Edhriano]

Hmmm... well if you put it like that it is not wrong.. entirely ..

But perhaps ...

DA:O ending
1. The blight end, you (gw) live
2. The blight end, you (gw) died >.< ...

Modifié par Edhriano, 24 juillet 2011 - 07:06 .

[hoorayforicecream]

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...

Doesn't Do Anything? We don't truly know the totality of that decision, since DAII pretty much sidedstepped the whole discussion by going with a story in a different region, unrelated. 

Further, while there may have been minimal technical impact from a gameplay perspective, the whole situation was a profound and emotionally compelling plot peice - and i can't say that I ever felt anywhere near as invested in any of the characters in DAII. I could sacrafice myself. I could sacrafice my lover Alistair. I could also choose the "easy way out" by performing a dark and unkown ritual which may have profound implications later - unless of course they decide to completely ignore the unfinished plotlines in DAO with DAIII. 

In any case, saying that the choice doesn't change anything is ignoring the true depth that was present in DAO. Wether this is a commentary on the game, your interpretation thereof, or other factors is a distinction I leave to you.

The differences at the end of DAO are cosmetic. None of them matter or have any sort of major effects in the long run. The best you get is different allies to summon during the battle of Denerim, and some placards that appear during the epilogue that may or may not be true anyway.

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Honestly, I'd wager that if DA2 had some epilogue placards and a post-final-battle conversation with the companions, there would have been a lot less hate.

[Ayanko]

Actually if the Warden died, the team mates suffered badly from it.
My wardens never die, I've raised an army almost single handed and they want me to die?
"You must be joking, surely you're joking"
cocky Warden Quote

[Rxdiaz]

Sorry but this is a stupid argument to defend DA2. At this point why not say we should all just kill ourselves in real life because we are all going to die anyway. How the game plays out and how the characters end up is important. Hell otherwise let's all drink the kool-aide because in the end nobody is getting out of here alive anyway...

[upsettingshorts]

Rxdiaz wrote...

How the game plays out and how the characters end up is important.

And DA2 has plenty of this.

The argument that the ending specifically in DAO had significantly more variation doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.

I can't discuss the potential fates of various companions because this is a No Spoiler forum.  That all of them aren't decided at the endgame itself is immaterial, they can still play out differently.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 juillet 2011 - 07:20 .

[abaris]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Every game is just smoke and mirrors. The difference between well made and badly made smoke is only how convincing the trick is pulled. If it appears to come from the backside, then something's wrong. If a story seems to be pulled from the hindparts, there's something wrong with the story.

And that seems to be the reason why the second DA instalment fails to convince many who liked the first part.

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Honestly, I'd wager that if DA2 had some epilogue placards and a post-final-battle conversation with the companions, there would have been a lot less hate.

That would have been great. Also no O' Blob in mage siding might have helped...a lot.

I still don't understand THAT.

[erynnar]

abaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Every game is just smoke and mirrors. The difference between well made and badly made smoke is only how convincing the trick is pulled. If it appears to come from the backside, then something's wrong. If a story seems to be pulled from the hindparts, there's something wrong with the story.

And that seems to be the reason why the second DA instalment fails to convince many who liked the first part.

And yes, plaquards would have helped, but it wouldn't have saved the game. There are far too many flaws for a few epilogue panels to save it from the blehs.

It would however have helped those who were pissed off about the ending (including those who love the game). By the time I got to Act 3 and had to fight two MMORPG bosses, I really didn't give a damn.

Ending it at Act 2 would have made me a happier camper, and made the game less meh for me.

Modifié par erynnar, 25 juillet 2011 - 12:02 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

erynnar wrote...

abaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Every game is just smoke and mirrors. The difference between well made and badly made smoke is only how convincing the trick is pulled. If it appears to come from the backside, then something's wrong. If a story seems to be pulled from the hindparts, there's something wrong with the story.

And that seems to be the reason why the second DA instalment fails to convince many who liked the first part.

And yes, plaquards would have helped, but it wouldn't have saved the game. There are far too many flaws for a few epilogue panels to save it from the blehs.

It would however have helped those who were pissed off about the ending (including those who love the game). By the time I got to Act 3 and had to fight two MMORPG bosses, I really didn't give a damn.

Ending it at Act 2 would have made me a happier camper, and made the game less meh for me.

You can choose to stop playing at the end of Act 2.



I would've actually removed Act 2 from the equation and beefed up Act 1/3 instead. I mean as far as implementation goes, Act 2 was the standout. I liked how Isabela's character development was integrated into the storyline and the general interactions with the Arishok were great. The fact that there were different ways to approach the situation with differing results too, was a major plus. But from a narrative standpoint, it didn't really do much other than to try an establish the reason why Hawke was Champion. Something that could've easily been done in Act 1, had their been a questline revolving around Kirkwall's smaller factions (Red Iron, Coterie, Guards, Nobles, Alienage, etc)

[In Exile]

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...
Doesn't Do Anything? We don't truly know the totality of that decision, since DAII pretty much sidedstepped the whole discussion by going with a story in a different region, unrelated. 

It doesn't do anything in DA:O. Whether it does anything further is up for debate.

Further, while there may have been minimal technical impact from a gameplay perspective, the whole situation was a profound and emotionally compelling plot peice 

It was contrived. It was a plot bomb that was dropped on you right at the end of the game, with no warning or context. I suppose it was emotional for you. 

- and i can't say that I ever felt anywhere near as invested in any of the characters in DAII.

Okay? That doesn't relate to my point.

I could sacrafice myself. I could sacrafice my lover Alistair. I could also choose the "easy way out" by performing a dark and unkown ritual which may have profound implications later - unless of course they decide to completely ignore the unfinished plotlines in DAO with DAIII. 

None of that changes the content of DA:O. You have a different cutscene, at the end of the game. Which is what I said. If the fluff makes an impact, sure. But it doesn't change the content.

In any case, saying that the choice doesn't change anything is ignoring the true depth that was present in DAO. Wether this is a commentary on the game, your interpretation thereof, or other factors is a distinction I leave to you.

I'm not ignoring any depth. I said that DA:O does not have varied content. You didn't say it has varied content: you said it had content that was personally impactful. I never denied that. 

[Firky]

Did my arrow with a flower drawing start this?

(I was just vaguelly trying to draw content delivery in Origins, because I didn't really understand the previous artist's fish creature. It wasn't an attempt to undermine emotional impact of endings. And, if Connor died in the middle, for example, you might feel terrible about it, but it doesn't change the content delivered during Origins. If it does, please correct me.)

Choice and consequence isn't about discrete content in Dragon Age (in my opinion), like in Witcher 2 in which I tried to replicate the same path through Act 1, but failed, and didn't even know why. (I got to the prison barge totally differently.) It's more about playing off the idea that you're engaged with characters and buying into the "impact on the world" idea (in my opinion.) That Origins had unique beginnings to frame Ferelden helped, I think.

I did think it was good in DAII, that you could see the impact of your actions in subsequent acts. I wish it was more than incidental stuff, like letters from people you helped. There were more meaningful things, including content, like a cool battle with that dwarf you borrowed money from. I didn't see that first time. I found a few of those moments second time thru, anyway.

Modifié par Firky, 25 juillet 2011 - 02:22 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The differences at the end of DAO are cosmetic. None of them matter or have any sort of major effects in the long run. The best you get is different allies to summon during the battle of Denerim, and some placards that appear during the epilogue that may or may not be true anyway.

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Honestly, I'd wager that if DA2 had some epilogue placards and a post-final-battle conversation with the companions, there would have been a lot less hate.

Probably.

Most magic shows wouldn't have the same effect without the smoke and mirrors.

[TEWR]

mrcrusty wrote...

erynnar wrote...

abaris wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Every game is just smoke and mirrors. The difference between well made and badly made smoke is only how convincing the trick is pulled. If it appears to come from the backside, then something's wrong. If a story seems to be pulled from the hindparts, there's something wrong with the story.

And that seems to be the reason why the second DA instalment fails to convince many who liked the first part.

And yes, plaquards would have helped, but it wouldn't have saved the game. There are far too many flaws for a few epilogue panels to save it from the blehs.

It would however have helped those who were pissed off about the ending (including those who love the game). By the time I got to Act 3 and had to fight two MMORPG bosses, I really didn't give a damn.

Ending it at Act 2 would have made me a happier camper, and made the game less meh for me.

You can choose to stop playing at the end of Act 2.



I would've actually removed Act 2 from the equation and beefed up Act 1/3 instead. I mean as far as implementation goes, Act 2 was the standout. I liked how Isabela's character development was integrated into the storyline and the general interactions with the Arishok were great. The fact that there were different ways to approach the situation with differing results too, was a major plus. But from a narrative standpoint, it didn't really do much other than to try an establish the reason why Hawke was Champion. Something that could've easily been done in Act 1, had their been a questline revolving around Kirkwall's smaller factions (Red Iron, Coterie, Guards, Nobles, Alienage, etc)

*long winded comment on how I would've made DA2, which would've been much better than what we got, that involved spoilers. I shall PM it to those who wish to read it. *

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[Cyberarmy]

Firky wrote...

Did my arrow with a flower drawing start this?

Yes, your drawing skills are that bad...
No worries tough mine drwaing skillz none existant.

[devSin]

Wow, the No Spoilers Allowed tag on this board really doesn't mean a single thing, does it?

Way to go, mods!

Modifié par devSin, 25 juillet 2011 - 07:55 .

[TEWR]

devSin wrote...

Wow, the No Spoilers Allowed tag on this board really doesn't mean a single thing, does it?

Way to go, mods!

Ah crap....


sometimes I just get carried away and just keep going with it. time to edit that out, but save it to word.

[devSin]

That's OK. You could probably find at least a hundred posts in the first page of threads for the two general boards that violate the "rule".

It's like getting thrown in jail, but they don't lock the cell doors. They say "You can't leave." but yeah, you can just walk right out and nobody will do anything.

Heaven forbid you post in a topic that was last active longer than two days ago, but go right ahead and copy the whole game text verbatim in your posts, we don't have no problems with that!

IT'S NOT LATE, AND I'M NOT BITTER.

Modifié par devSin, 25 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[Cyberarmy]

Screw the spoiler stuff...and dont mind the chicken...
İt was a such good read The Ethereal Writer Redux (Tewr?) and reminds me how DA2 is a wasted potantial.
Can you PM it to me pretty please.

[PillarBiter]

Firky wrote...

Did my arrow with a flower drawing start this?

no, my weird fish thing did

[DiabolicallyRandom]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...

Doesn't Do Anything? We don't truly know the totality of that decision, since DAII pretty much sidedstepped the whole discussion by going with a story in a different region, unrelated. 

Further, while there may have been minimal technical impact from a gameplay perspective, the whole situation was a profound and emotionally compelling plot peice - and i can't say that I ever felt anywhere near as invested in any of the characters in DAII. I could sacrafice myself. I could sacrafice my lover Alistair. I could also choose the "easy way out" by performing a dark and unkown ritual which may have profound implications later - unless of course they decide to completely ignore the unfinished plotlines in DAO with DAIII. 

In any case, saying that the choice doesn't change anything is ignoring the true depth that was present in DAO. Wether this is a commentary on the game, your interpretation thereof, or other factors is a distinction I leave to you.

The differences at the end of DAO are cosmetic. None of them matter or have any sort of major effects in the long run. The best you get is different allies to summon during the battle of Denerim, and some placards that appear during the epilogue that may or may not be true anyway.

It's good that DAO resonated with you, and that you enjoyed it. I'm glad you did. But DAO wasn't some magical journey of perfection, it was a bunch of smoke and mirrors to make you think it mattered. They just had more time to make the smoke and mirrors more convincing.

Honestly, I'd wager that if DA2 had some epilogue placards and a post-final-battle conversation with the companions, there would have been a lot less hate.

I am not referring to implications within DA:O itself. I am referring to canon-wide implications such as:

Assuming one performed the dark ritual with morrigan, what sort of world changing implications might that have? If you did so, its arguable that the archdemon is in fact NOT dead.

You, or alternately, alistair gave your life to kill the archdemon - or so it is portrayed. What sort of implications does that have for the grey wardens as an order? perhaps they are now more respected? or perhaps at that final moment when you were to chicken **** to die yourself, you made grey wardens look like cowering peices of vile trash.

You speak as if the entirety and totality of the choices made near end game cannot and will not have any profound effect on future games - while that may be true, we DO NOT know that. And any claims as to awakenings making it all pointless, again, we do not know that - if you chose to continue with your dead warden, that was YOUR retconning - and it is NOT a canon choice.

Wether or not you felt invested in the DA:O story does not change the fact that those decisions, COULD have wildly varying implications in DA3 or another DA game.


Edit: To further specify my point, you are looking at it as a self contained unit - I am approaching this game the same way I would a series of books.

If the end of a book ends with unanswered questions, its logical to assume those questions may be answered in a future installment.

Much the same in that DAII ended without telling you wtf was going on.

Modifié par DiabolicallyRandom, 26 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[Morroian]

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...

I am not referring to implications within DA:O itself. I am referring to canon-wide implications such as:

Assuming one performed the dark ritual with morrigan, what sort of world changing implications might that have? If you did so, its arguable that the archdemon is in fact NOT dead.

The dark ritual is not canon so the implications can't be that great. 

DiabolicallyRandom wrote...

You speak as if the entirety and totality of the choices made near end game cannot and will not have any profound effect on future games - while that may be true, we DO NOT know that. And any claims as to awakenings making it all pointless, again, we do not know that - if you chose to continue with your dead warden, that was YOUR retconning - and it is NOT a canon choice.

I would bet you any amount that none of the implications you mention will be dealt with in future games. Nor will the Bhelen/Harrowmount choice, the anvil choice or the werewolves/elves choice. The only thing that will be dealt with will be Morrigan/Flemeth and the OGB if you did the dark ritual.