295 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Firky - I think it's just that lots of DA:O fans are still bitter at feeling like they are not being recognised as a legitimate audience (because the evil DA2 was for other people, not them).

Speaking as someone who greatly preferred DA:O but still enjoyed DA2, I'm not sure why those who disliked the second game expect a DLC of that game to cater to people who didn't enjoy it--unless they think the DLC is supposed to be a Bioware Apology to True Fans or something.

Anyway, I hope the DA2 fans enjoy the DLC. I've just gotten my DA:O DLCs to work and much fun is being had.

[Firky]

^ I want to replay Leliana's Song just for the music. (And it was a decent DLC too.)

That's a very good point on fans of DA:O not feeling like they were recognised as a legitimate audience with DA2. Why is that? Do you think it primarily comes down to the RPG elements lost or more visibly absent? (Item descriptions, fixed follower outfits, narrow narrative path etc?)

Some of the RPG elements could certainly be "fixed" by a DLC.

[Morroian]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Faster combat is great to me. Waves and exploding blood bags and enemies dropping from the sky are horrible horrible horrible and it is MIND BOGGLING that your studio ever had them make it to production.

The exploding bodies was a bug, this has been well documented by now.

As for the waves well they came from the approximate positions of roofs, alleys etc obviously thats just not good enough and they need to be seen rounding that corner or balanced on the roof above.  

[Siven80]

Nothing wrong with that interveiw imo.

I am looking forward to playing the DLC. Sounds interesting and im looking forward to less combat waves. Also more Warden info for me is a good thing

I like DA2, i like many of the gameplay changes, but its not perfect and neither was DAO as ive said in other threads, and if people think a DLC is going to change the core gameplay of the whole of DA2...well they have no sense of reality.

[tez19]

Gamers are whiners. The more hardcore/geeky the gamer the more they complain. 'Tis the internet.

[Tommy6860]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Firky - I think it's just that lots of DA:O fans are still bitter at feeling like they are not being recognised as a legitimate audience (because the evil DA2 was for other people, not them).

Speaking as someone who greatly preferred DA:O but still enjoyed DA2, I'm not sure why those who disliked the second game expect a DLC of that game to cater to people who didn't enjoy it--unless they think the DLC is supposed to be a Bioware Apology to True Fans or something.

Anyway, I hope the DA2 fans enjoy the DLC. I've just gotten my DA:O DLCs to work and much fun is being had.

This^ is what should be the true reasoning of a gaming fan, aside from their preferences. I feel the same way, as I didn't hate the game, it just wasnt to what I feel an RPG is.

[Edited for clarity]

Modifié par Tommy6860, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:28 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Morroian wrote...

The exploding bodies was a bug, this has been well documented by now.

As for the waves well they came from the approximate positions of roofs, alleys etc obviously thats just not good enough and they need to be seen rounding that corner or balanced on the roof above.  

The game went gold and shipped with the exploding bodies. The exploding bodies were in the demo.  They were not a "bug" they were just not appreciated and therefore patched out.  Anyone play testing the game would see the bodies were excessive on ALL platforms. I don't think this was a "woops we didn't mean for that to happen we just never saw it" like that quest bug where the guy is standing in the coast area and you can't interact with him (or the dozens of other simliar questy bugs).  The bodies exploding were "awesome" utnil they realized that majority of people don't like to see such ridiculous cartoonish effects.

That ranting aside, it's nice to know it was changed with the patch. Too bad the majority of fans had already played the game and finished with the game before it was implemented.

Waves were awful, and I'm glad to hear the Legacy DLC has minimized them and that they intend to minimize their use in future DA games.   They wanted to make combat stretched out, the way they did it was (imho) stupid.  Will be interesting to see how the combat is prolonged with out waves this time (looks like more hitpoints and more shields from the demo of Legacy I saw).

The dropping from ceiling and spiders from the sky was just . Would love to see the devs reason for letting that go in the game as it was. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The dropping from ceiling and spiders from the sky was just . Would love to see the devs reason for letting that go in the game as it was. 

Do you get mad at Spider-Man for not always showing where his webs attach to off panel as he swings or something? 

[Morroian]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The game went gold and shipped with the exploding bodies. The exploding bodies were in the demo.  They were not a "bug" they were just not appreciated and therefore patched out.   

So..... you realise you're saying Bioware were lying about it being a bug.

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

The dropping from ceiling and spiders from the sky was just . Would love to see the devs reason for letting that go in the game as it was. 

They probably thought people would treat it like the abstraction it was, like I said they came from the direction of roofs and alleys etc.

[TEWR]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...


The game went gold and shipped with the exploding bodies. The exploding bodies were in the demo.  They were not a "bug" they were just not appreciated and therefore patched out.  Anyone play testing the game would see the bodies were excessive on ALL platforms. I don't think this was a "woops we didn't mean for that to happen we just never saw it" like that quest bug where the guy is standing in the coast area and you can't interact with him (or the dozens of other simliar questy bugs).  The bodies exploding were "awesome" utnil they realized that majority of people don't like to see such ridiculous cartoonish effects.

Or it could've been a bug in the demo and they didn't know the exact reason why. At least now when they explode it's fairly realistic (usually when they're frozen).

Waves were awful, and I'm glad to hear the Legacy DLC has minimized them and that they intend to minimize their use in future DA games.   They wanted to make combat stretched out, the way they did it was (imho) stupid.  Will be interesting to see how the combat is prolonged with out waves this time (looks like more hitpoints and more shields from the demo of Legacy I saw).

Waves existed in Origins as well. They were just implemented better and made sense to the story. Darkspawn, Corrupted Spider Queen's army, and maybe some others.

The dropping from ceiling and spiders from the sky was just . Would love to see the devs reason for letting that go in the game as it was. 

I don't remember any spiders dropping down from the open sky (honestly I don't remember). There may be caves with a view of the sky, but there are also partial ceilings in the cave that the spiders could've dropped down from. But they would also either be waiting for you or come out from openings in the cave paths.

Either way though, spider implementation should be improved so it doesn't appear to look like they're dropping down from the open sky if that was indeed the case. But for all we know those spiders were moving through the opening in the cave ceiling and then descended down. I mean, spiders do have legs which they use to move and all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:48 .

[Sanguinerin]

Personally, I've had a positive response toward the Legacy DLC. It's definitely not a day-one purchase and I'm going to wait around for fan feedback. I didn't enjoy Dragon Age II enough to up and buy all extra content as soon as it's available as I did with Origins and Mass Effect. Still, I would venture out there to say that BioWare is listening to feedback. Obviously, the product will have the final say, as all I or anyone else can do at the moment is sit back and think about whether or not they want to purchase it.

I also recognize that DLC can't change the make-up of the game. I'm still a bit unnerved by the new genlock design although as has been stated, the particular image we see is an alpha. I'm hoping that there are some variations at least. The hurlocks weren't quite so drastic of a change in comparison to what we've seen so far of genlocks.

The combat pace isn't going to change. The art style shouldn't be drastically drawn into a new direction. If DLC was the only place where these new things occurred, it would be far more immersion breaking by going from one to the other.

What I would prefer from DLC, however, would be some changes to the core game that are less drastic. Balance out the waves, perhaps add some actual quest dialogue to the deliver (deemed "fed-ex") quests, etc. I would prefer something that deepens the core rather than expands on a well-developed layer of outside content. It's entirely possible that this does happen, but there's still all that core content surrounding it to go by.

Why expand on the core instead of adding newer, outer layers? I'm not going to purchase DLC to play by itself and then move on, especially from a post-campaign save. If I buy it, I'm going to play it integrated within an actual play-through. However, it's rough enough trying to get through parts of the core game without adding on extra content.

Granted, I've barely touched the game since I finished it during release week, with occasional moments where I go back and try. I've made it to Act I several times still but I eventually quit again. I don't mean to be insulting when I criticize it, I genuinely want to to move past what I don't like and continue enjoying the world that I started loving from Origins. It's a decent game if it was standing on it's own right from another developer, but it fell short (in my opinion) of succeeding against Origins and as a BioWare game in general.

I'm thankful to the developers for their hard work. The biggest fault I find with the game is that, yes, I do feel like the product was rushed. I think that too much was decided to be altered from what existed considering the actual length of development. These are points that I probably won't change my mind about. However, I'd like to say again that I do think that they're listening. They seem to genuinely be trying to deepen the experience of the game.

I'm not saying don't remain skeptical. Honestly, I still am. I'd still like to take their efforts with an open mind and give this new content the opportunity to "show" rather than "tell." I would say that most people who had a negative reaction with DAII are still around is because they're hoping for better. With that, I think, comes giving the new content a chance. Caution and small steps, maybe, but a chance.

Here's hoping I stated all of that clearly. I was a bit distracted while writing it.

[TheBlackBaron]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Firky - I think it's just that lots of DA:O fans are still bitter at feeling like they are not being recognised as a legitimate audience (because the evil DA2 was for other people, not them).

Speaking as someone who greatly preferred DA:O but still enjoyed DA2, I'm not sure why those who disliked the second game expect a DLC of that game to cater to people who didn't enjoy it--unless they think the DLC is supposed to be a Bioware Apology to True Fans or something.

Anyway, I hope the DA2 fans enjoy the DLC. I've just gotten my DA:O DLCs to work and much fun is being had.

Well, I'm not one of the ones that was expecting that, but I can see where they're coming from. DA2 was essentially developed and marketed as the Dragon Age game for people that didn't enjoy DA:O for whatever reason. So I suppose you can always hold out hope that DA2's negative reception might have caused a kneejerk back in the opposite direction for its first DLC, especially one that's been as long time coming (by DLC standards) as this one, no matter how irrational that might be. 

[Saintthanksgiving]

I'm not really upset about anything Legacy related in that interview, I dont think anyone reasonably thought that it would change Anyone's mind on DA2.

My problem is the same problem that I have had with DA2 and every single Dev interview given since the release.  I launched into a tirade on this topic a couple of months ago on one of my Fundamental threads...

• Why am I supposed to feel like some kind of heel because I was expecting a sequel to Origins?
• What kind of logic supports the idea that fans of Origins are idiots for expecting the sequel to be anything like the original?
• If I bought the Original game and liked it enough to pre order the sequel, why was my interest ignored for a fan that doesnt even exist yet?  By the Dev's own admission DA2 was designed for a fanbase THAT IT DIDNT EVEN HAVE YET.
• Did it ever occur to anyone that ORIGIN's success may have had something to do with the fact that authentic, quality, RPG's are hard to come by on consoles?
• Don't get me wrong, Origins wasnt perfect, but DA2 doesnt try to fix the faults of Origins.   It dumps the game completely and hijacks it into an entirely different bastardized genre.
• My biggest beef, the one that burns me up and sends me up the wall, is this Company motto that all the changes in DA2 were meant to appeal to a "wider audience." 
• Spending two years churning out a monotonous game that has a plot held together with Duct tape has nothing to do with mass appeal. 
  
• Cutting content from the game, only to sell it back to the player as "Pay as you go" DLC is not broadening your fanbase.  It's profiteering.
  
• AND Spitting in the face of the people who pay for your products is not going to engender you to a new demographic. 

The lack of respect shown to Origins Fans by this development team is a Fundamental Disgrace.  You know who I'm talking to.  Yes You.  The EULA prevents me from calling you out by name anymore but rest assured...

To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee
Fundamentally yours,
The Champion of the People 

Modifié par Saintthanksgiving, 21 juillet 2011 - 03:12 .

[Shuma Gorath]

tez19 wrote...

Gamers are whiners. The more hardcore/geeky the gamer the more they complain. 'Tis the internet.

Let me guess, you still live in your Mother's basement?

[Alex the Droog]

Bioware devs are getting butt hurt on this thread.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Firky wrote...

^ I want to replay Leliana's Song just for the music. (And it was a decent DLC too.)

That's a very good point on fans of DA:O not feeling like they were recognised as a legitimate audience with DA2. Why is that? Do you think it primarily comes down to the RPG elements lost or more visibly absent? (Item descriptions, fixed follower outfits, narrow narrative path etc?)

Some of the RPG elements could certainly be "fixed" by a DLC.

Lel's Song is the first one I've played and finished (besides the DLC that came with the deluxe DA:O edition), and gotta agree about the music. I think I've listened to those tracks--and all of those tracks--more than I have the DA2 score.

As to the disgruntled DA:O fans, I think it varies from person to person where DA2's game mechanics, art direction and everything else are concerned, but one blanket reason may be EA's (or Bioware's, or both) admission the game was technically going out of its way to attract the fans of action games. This was reflected, IMO, in the balance between the excessive focus on combat (action) and reduced RPG elements you mentioned. Not all DA:O fans minded this, of course, but naturally there will be those who think it's a travesty.

I think it's a sad direction and hope it levels out to balance the two a bit more. Considering the devs have said the DLC will be very story-oriented perhaps this is there intent, even if item descriptions and other stuff are still absent. We'll see.

But basically DA2 was trying to rope in a non-RPG audience and make that audience like RPGs, while keeping their current fans happy. I think many perceived that the non-RPG audience, the 'fresh money', was the crowd being concentrated on at the expense of the core crowd.

One person's opinions.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Well, I'm not one of the ones that was expecting that, but I can see where they're coming from. DA2 was essentially developed and marketed as the Dragon Age game for people that didn't enjoy DA:O for whatever reason. So I suppose you can always hold out hope that DA2's negative reception might have caused a kneejerk back in the opposite direction for its first DLC, especially one that's been as long time coming (by DLC standards) as this one, no matter how irrational that might be.

Well, the devs have said they have listened to all the negative feedback for DA2 and tried to take that on board with Legacy. It remains to be seen what negative feedback they acted upon, but not all of that feedback was from Origin fans. Plenty of DA2 fans didn't like reused environments, for isntance.

Hoping for a kickback to DA:O while in the DA2 engine will just get people upset. Maybe Bioware will consider a DLC called 'Retro' for the DA:O fans, but considering how much work would have to be done changing the UI, animations and everything else I rather doubt it would be cost-effective. XD

[Savber100]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I'm not really upset about anything Legacy related in that interview, I dont think anyone reasonably thought that it would change Anyone's mind on DA2.

My problem is the same problem that I have had with DA2 and every single Dev interview given since the release.  I launched into a tirade on this topic a couple of months ago on one of my Fundamental threads...

• Why am I supposed to feel like some kind of heel because I was expecting a sequel to Origins?
• What kind of logic supports the idea that fans of Origins are idiots for expecting the sequel to be anything like the original?
• If I bought the Original game and liked it enough to pre order the sequel, why was my interest ignored for a fan that doesnt even exist yet?  By the Dev's own admission DA2 was designed for a fanbase THAT IT DIDNT EVEN HAVE YET.
• Did it ever occur to anyone that ORIGIN's success may have had something to do with the fact that authentic, quality, RPG's are hard to come by on consoles?
• Don't get me wrong, Origins wasnt perfect, but DA2 doesnt try to fix the faults of Origins.   It dumps the game completely and hijacks it into an entirely different bastardized genre.
• My biggest beef, the one that burns me up and sends me up the wall, is this Company motto that all the changes in DA2 were meant to appeal to a "wider audience." 
• Spending two years churning out a monotonous game that has a plot held together with Duct tape has nothing to do with mass appeal. 
  
• Cutting content from the game, only to sell it back to the player as "Pay as you go" DLC is not broadening your fanbase.  It's profiteering.
  
• AND Spitting in the face of the people who pay for your products is not going to engender you to a new demographic. 

The lack of respect shown to Origins Fans by this development team is a Fundamental Disgrace.  You know who I'm talking to.  Yes You.  The EULA prevents me from calling you out by name anymore but rest assured...

THIS. 

Not exactly with tone there but THIS THIS THIS fully explains my current feelings. 

Let me sum this all up with a history of what I thought of DA2: 

Bioware: Who wants DA2? :innocent:
Me: Well hell yeah!   I loved DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS and I love to see a sequel that BUILDS upon Dragon Age: Origins. So what's it going to be, Bioware? More cool origins? Can I be a Qunari this time? 


Bioware: Naw, you'll going to be a human fleeing Ferelden during the Blight. After all, who said that this was going to be Origins 2? 

Me: Well, seeing how it's a sequel to Origins and everyone loved that feature, I thought that was logi- 

Bioware: Hush up and listen before you judge. 

Me: Ok fine.. 

Bioware: We're going to make combat faster. 

Me: Hmm.. ok, I admit the combat in DA:O got a little slow. 

Bioware: See? I told you'll like that. Now, we decided to make the game focus on your rise in Kirkwall. It will be a more personal story. It's the story of the Champion and his family. 

Me: Glad to see you're breaking away from the "save the world" storyline, So are we going to see Orlais, Rivain? 

Bioware: Say what now? 

Me: You once said that DA is about the WORLD of Thedas, so I assumed that DA2 will open up to more nations like Orl- 

Bioware: You'll be staying in Kirkwall for most of the time. 

Me: What,,, <_<

Bioware: Cuz it's a more PERSONAL story... duh! 

Me: Well at least we get to see a living, growing city with day/night cycles like The Witcher, right? I mean if you're not making more places surely you'll try your best to make the city alive. 

Bioware: Nope, Kirkwall will feel more lifeless than Denerim. The only difference is that you'll be stuck there for the entire game. OH and you'll be seeing the same map over and over again. While we're at it, your companions would NEVER change their clothes unless you romance them because we want EVERYONE to recognize them when they play this game because they're too dim to recognize them by their faces. OH and enemies are now appearing like little angels falling from the sky! 

Me: Bioware, you have never let me down with your products. I have regarded you as on par with companies like Valve. I know you won't let m-. 

Bioware: We're also taking away the isometric camera from the PC version. 

Me: You motherf--! 

Bioware: What did you except from a SEQUEL of Dragon Age: Origins? Dragon Age: Origins 2? 

Me: You tell me.. <_<

Bioware: You just don't get it.  Now go and check out our wonderful new DLC for $10! 

Modifié par Savber100, 21 juillet 2011 - 05:59 .

[Edhriano]

@Savber100

Yeah ... that pretty much hit the jackpot ...

[Black Arachnia]

LoL Sooo True.....

[TEWR]

I'm curious, what was so special about the isometric camera that made people upset when it disappeared?

[Firky]

^ That's probably my one and only gripe. I don't even care about reused areas. It's pretty simple. It's a party based RPG and you can't see the entire party at the same time. I have all tactics and behaviours turned off. I micromanage everyone, like in the Baldur's Gate days. Not everyone plays one character at a time. (How many play like me though, I don't know.)

Having said that, with a bit of practice I got used to skipping around the action. But I still have to do silly stuff like select a melee then a ranged character in order to target an enemy for the ranged character.

Modifié par Firky, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:19 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Filament wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

...It's unfortunate that you feel that way about the various changes and how BioWare presented them, but I feel that you are significantly mischaracterizing their presentation of those changes just to make them look bad, and I can't help but think maybe you just shouldn't have bought the game if you were so upset by the new direction. Evidently by your characterization of their pre-release comments you were around long enough to make an informed decision on the matter and didn't just buy  it blindly.

It really weirds me out when people take DA2, its DLC, and the press stuff as personal insults and use terms like "spitting in our face" in a completely serious tone. I mean... really, when I buy a Big Mac and it doesn't look like the advertised sandwich, I don't think that it's McDonalds spitting in my face. I don't think that it's them disrespecting me. I just eat the burger, and if it bothers me that much, I don't buy it anymore and move on.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 21 juillet 2011 - 07:30 .

[WilliamShatner]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Filament wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

...It's unfortunate that you feel that way about the various changes and how BioWare presented them, but I feel that you are significantly mischaracterizing their presentation of those changes just to make them look bad, and I can't help but think maybe you just shouldn't have bought the game if you were so upset by the new direction. Evidently by your characterization of their pre-release comments you were around long enough to make an informed decision on the matter and didn't just buy  it blindly.

It really weirds me out when people take DA2, its DLC, and the press stuff as personal insults and use terms like "spitting in our face" in a completely serious tone. I mean... really, when I buy a Big Mac and it doesn't look like the advertised sandwich, I don't think that it's McDonalds spitting in my face. I don't think that it's them disrespecting me. I just eat the burger, and if it bothers me that much, I don't buy it anymore and move on.

Well if you don't like a burger from McDonalds you have hundreds of other choices of places to go to get a burger you do like.

Now, off the top of your head tell me ten other companies that produce squad based RPGs like DA:O.  Go.