295 réponses à ce sujet

[Fraevar]

JohnEpler wrote...

There's some overlap, but most of the work was done by the DA core team. That's not to say that the expertise the ME gained from Shadow Broker wasn't tapped, but most of the folks who worked on Shadow Broker are hard at work on ME3. 

Mass Effect and Dragon Age have small 'core' teams of people in each department who are, essentially, the 'franchise experts'. The particular departments will grow and shrink according to the project needs across the company - so when Dragon Age 2 was in production, for example, Cinematic Design swelled to about 250% of its current size. When ME3 started ramping up, most of the Cinematic Designers moved over to Mass Effect, with a group of four people staying on board to handle DLC and any post-production work (hammering out a consistent style guide for future content, for example). That's not to say that some of those core people won't change projects if the need is great, but usually, DLC will be done by the 'core' group of the particular franchise.

Wait, Legacy has *four guys* doing Cinematic Design. John, a lot of your status updates regarding work suddenly make a lot more sense! Kudos.

[Cutlass Jack]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Can we get back to the part about Dragon Age 2 not being a sequel to origins? No one explained that part to me yet and I've been asking for months.

Sure just as soon as you explain why it absolutely had to be. I mean I've played through many sequentially numbered Final Fantasy games that had nothing to do with each other besides Chocobos. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I don't think DA2 was so much "experimenting" as it was" taking the old formula out behind the woodshed and shooting it."

More than that though, the statement doesn't even make sense.

And why is everyone so accepting of a plan that disregarded a core audience for the prospected interest of some phantom group of neo rpg'ers?

I feel like the guy from NETWORK here.....

Not everyone agrees with you. That must be pretty shocking for a self-professed champion of the people. 

[MeAndMySandvich]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

I don't think DA2 was so much "experimenting" as it was" taking the old formula out behind the woodshed and shooting it."

More than that though, the statement doesn't even make sense.

And why is everyone so accepting of a plan that disregarded a core audience for the prospected interest of some phantom group of neo rpg'ers?

I feel like the guy from NETWORK here.....

Well, I'm not. I think the plan failed catastrophically. But I don't think that changing the formula is inherently bad. I'd imagine that they thought, before the fact, that the core audience would like the changes. This "DA2 is intended for a new audience" thing reeks of post-hoc justification, IMO.

[devSin]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Can we get back to the part about Dragon Age 2 not being a sequel to origins? No one explained that part to me yet and I've been asking for months.

Because it doesn't play as much like Origins as some would expect of a sequel. The wording they use to discuss it is ridiculous (because it is the sequel to Origins, like it or not), especially for people who like both (I think it's a fine sequel, except for all the finishing touches they didn't have time to even think about let alone implement), but I guess it's valid to try to separate people who want the old gameplay style (which is never coming back) from people who didn't like or were never even exposed to the old style.

LiquidGrape wrote...

I've always thought the DLC format seems a pretty neat way for developers to 'test the waters' and experiment with new ideas within the framework of what tools and restrictions they've already acquainted themselves with. Does this ring true to your experience?

I've always wanted this, but in the past, I think the teams have been too separate. Rob did a lot of design work, Ferret was apparently the lead designer, and you had a smidgeon of junior (I assume) designers (level and cinematic) to get it all in place. So even though they could try new things, their discoveries may not have made their way forward into new games.

Expansions have always been a good avenue for trying out new ideas, and they retain some of the core design team (from the full game, although I think they mostly ended up using just the live team for Awakening too), but I guess it remains to be seen who's working on the DLC for Dragon Age II (I think Rob is a GM now, and I think they've transitioned to using their primary writers even for DLC, but I'm not sure they'll get any of the principle designers back).

Modifié par devSin, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[Edhriano]

As long as people see and understand that the most common and obvious reason
why people pre-ordered DA2 is because they really really like and enjoy DA : O ....

I don't know about everyone else, but I really enjoy having multiple race selection,
like to customize my companion(s) with different armor,  had fun exploring beatiful unique
not recycled copy maps, good to have tactical view camera and really happy with
many different ending.


Man ... is it just me or is it really "hot" here?

Modifié par Edhriano, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .

[Naltair]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Sure just as soon as you explain why it absolutely had to be. I mean I've played through many sequentially numbered Final Fantasy games that had nothing to do with each other besides Chocobos. 

Agreed, Dragon Age is not a direct sequel meaning you control the same protagonist and continue their adventures.  It is a sequel in that it continues to set stories in the same world with the same lore and pivotal characters.

We see Flemeth again and Isabella, we meet characters from the first game who have a logical reason to be elsewhere.  We see locations that may have been mentioned in the first game and learn more about central conflicts that are affecting the world.  We also see some of our impacts from the first game incorporated into the world. 

So it is a sequel in that it takes place in the Dragon Age world just with a new less “save the world” story.  Similar in style to how Final fantasy always incorporates elements of the Final fantasy brand into each game but each is a
stand alone world with a new story.  Dragon Age I presume will be more a collection of stories that describe the world during this crucial moment in history.

Modifié par Naltair, 21 juillet 2011 - 06:28 .

[aries1001]

DA2 is a sequel to Origins much in the same way Oblivion is sequel to Morrowind. Like Oblivion, continues the stories set in the Elder Scrolls universe, DA2 continues the story set in the Thedas universe. In that sense, it is sequel....

As I've said in the fan review thread, I (still) like the game,l even after having experienced the wave combat. It could have been done better, I find, but to me, the game, DA2, is fine little game, trying to tell a personal tale. I still find the game somewhat ugly in the visual presentation, but when the combat is -ahem- going -e.g. - I don't notice is as much. The visual and cinematic presentation of the characters are fine and great, imo, - it is the environments...that's looks ugly... for some reason...I'm not talking about they look bad, I'm talking about the art design and art direction here.

[Erode_The_Soul]

But Dragon Age II has been successful. We’ve attracted a lot of new fans
and even old fans who said, ‘You know, I struggled with Origins or I
wasn’t able to complete it, and I found DA2 much more palatable’. At the
end of the day, right now that is our audience. There are a lot of
people who enjoyed DA2 and they’re looking for more content, and that is
the primary audience for this. But I’m hoping that we can also win back
a lot of people that were perhaps expecting something else with DA2 and
are willing to give it a chance.

This scares me a bit. I understand that, within context, he's talking about DA2 DLC but something in the back of my mind keeps making me think this is going to be the attitude the rest of the series is based on. I liked DA2 for what it was: a decent action RPG well below the standard I've come to expect from Bioware. But having just completed a Dalish runthrough of Origins, I've come to realize that my preference for Origins wasn't just rose-colored nostalgia glasses. While both games had their strong points that I feel should be combined for DA3, for me, DAO was far superior to DA2. The idea that the audience they're focusing on is one that didn't care for Origins is a scary thing.

[TEWR]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...

Can we get back to the part about Dragon Age 2 not being a sequel to origins? No one explained that part to me yet and I've been asking for months.

Sure just as soon as you explain why it absolutely had to be. I mean I've played through many sequentially numbered Final Fantasy games that had nothing to do with each other besides Chocobos. 

and moogles!

Though sometimes they changed in appearance. Other times, they stayed the same.

Also, one of the earlier games prior to FFXII took place in Ivalice centuries before FFXII as a part of a bunch of FF games called the Ivalice Alliance. Fun fact

[Tirfan]

^ Bah, the only real Ivalice is the one in original Final Fantasy Tactics, every other iteration of Ivalice is not Ivalice.

If you have not played Final Fantasy Tactics, do it now.

And I'm going into the off-topic land.

[devSin]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

This scares me a bit. I understand that, within context, he's talking about DA2 DLC but something in the back of my mind keeps making me think this is going to be the attitude the rest of the series is based on.

They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

If you can provide specifics about exactly what you feel Origins did so much better than Dragon Age II, then post that in the constructive criticism thread. But if you're crossing your fingers that DA2 will just be a bump in the road, soon to be forgotten, you're ignoring the obvious. They are *not* going back.

If you want something that you felt DA2 missed to actually be different in DA3, you need to tell them about that thing. If you're looking simply for Origins-style gameplay, you probably need to resign yourself to just playing Origins.

[lobi]

So bad writing with shallow charactors, short dev times and skimping on content shall be the norm? Oh well it was fun while it lasted.
Mass effect is their cash cow so maybe that is getting better treatment by those that allocate resources.
DA team could maybe go where they will feel at home, perhaps Bungee has openings.

Modifié par lobi, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:04 .

[macrocarl]

@lobi, are you responding to devSin's post? Because that's not what he said. If you are referring to someone else posting, then ignore me!
And yes, from what I have read, BW is not going back to a silent protagonist for anything DA2 related. No getting rid of the wheel, combat.... but with tweaks obviously. Like this DLC will use waves more realistically/ effectively for example. This DLC will address recycled environments. But they will continue to listen to customer feedback and tweak things as they go. As for DA3 they have also stated that nothing is set yet.

[Morroian]

devSin wrote...
They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

I dunno, if DA3 brought back tactical cam, had better encounter design, didn't reuse areas so much, slowed down combat a tad, had more realistic animations andless restriction in classes I reckon quite a lot of those critical of DA2 would be mollified.

[devSin]

Morroian wrote...

I dunno, if DA3 brought back tactical cam

I don't think you'll get back the tactical camera mode. Not ever. It's PC-only and imposes constraints on the art team that they apparently don't like. Maybe for AoE targeting (although, a modifier key that simply disables snapping to targets when held down would probably work just as well), but not as a mode you can just play in.

[macrocarl]

mousestalker wrote...

You know when things are facts because someone posts "It is a fact that when someone says 'It is a fact that what I am saying is a fact'".

It is a fact that everyone who disagrees with me smells worse than those who agree with me.

It's even more true when someone says something is a 'scientific fact' because the truth of the statement is backed up by science.

It is a scientific fact that the people who agree with me have a refreshing minty scent.

I agree! (Walks off with a refreshingly minty smell into the sun set)

[dheer]

devSin wrote...
They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

I've seen they're ok with it, for now. Nothing about how all future installments will have all three of those.

devSin wrote...
I don't think you'll get back the tactical camera mode. Not ever. It's PC-only and imposes constraints on the art team that they apparently don't like. Maybe for AoE targeting (although, a modifier key that simply disables snapping to targets when held down would probably work just as well), but not as a mode you can just play in.

Thankfully, that's your opinion. They haven't commented on it for future games. Just because they made a poor decision for DA2 doesn't mean they'll repeat it going forward.

Modifié par dheer, 21 juillet 2011 - 09:38 .

[Imrahil_]

devSin wrote...
The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

... They are *not* going back.

...& customers won't be coming back.

[Sylvianus]

Morroian wrote...

devSin wrote...
They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

I dunno, if DA3 brought back tactical cam, had better encounter design, didn't reuse areas so much, slowed down combat a tad, had more realistic animations andless restriction in classes I reckon quite a lot of those critical of DA2 would be mollified.

The voice is here to stay, the dialogue wheel is liked. ( david gaider )

That's it. It was never said anything about the gameplay design, I think. It's a bit premature to think that Bioware is already fixed.

In truth, I think Bioware, reassess all fields and hasn't yet decided on anything. It will take probably another months to decide what to keep, what to change, what improvement, what to bring.

Then it's a business, everything is relative. Say it's here to stay, several years before  the next game arrives doesn't mean much. Opinions can change and fast.

[Erode_The_Soul]

devSin wrote...

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

This scares me a bit. I understand that, within context, he's talking about DA2 DLC but something in the back of my mind keeps making me think this is going to be the attitude the rest of the series is based on.

They've already said this. Publicly. About more than DLC.

The voice is here to stay. The dialogue wheel is here to stay. The gameplay design is here to stay (but with improvements, some of which they've commented about).

If you can provide specifics about exactly what you feel Origins did so much better than Dragon Age II, then post that in the constructive criticism thread. But if you're crossing your fingers that DA2 will just be a bump in the road, soon to be forgotten, you're ignoring the obvious. They are *not* going back.

If you want something that you felt DA2 missed to actually be different in DA3, you need to tell them about that thing. If you're looking simply for Origins-style gameplay, you probably need to resign yourself to just playing Origins.

I'm under no illusion that they'll disregard DA2 completely, nor do I think they should (I also don't think I suggested such a thing in my post ). DA2 had a lot of good things going for it that absolutely should be moved to the next iteration. There were also some things that were good in theory but were executed poorly (such as wave combat) that just needs some...tweaking to be a success.
My concern is that Origins did a lot of things well too, but for some reason those things are rarely ever mentioned by the devs and were, in some instances, removed (such as the isometric camera ). If it's true that this new audience (in a general sense) didn't like Origins, and by extention, didn't care for these things, and Bioware is catering more to their concerns, then there is the potential to completely ignore or forget the things it's predecessor did well.
I've accepted that they've taken a new direction for this series. What concerns me is that they might forget where it all started completely. That's something I'm afraid of.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:04 .

[PillarBiter]

lobi wrote...

So bad writing with shallow charactors, short dev times and skimping on content shall be the norm? Oh well it was fun while it lasted.
Mass effect is their cash cow so maybe that is getting better treatment by those that allocate resources.
DA team could maybe go where they will feel at home, perhaps Bungee has openings.

what Im really pissed about is this object. What was bad about the writing? Seriously, Because I had a lot more wtf moments in DAO then I did in DA2. I think the writing was fluent in da2, I cared more for the story there. DAO often had me feeling I didnt know what i was doing or fighting for. I was so lost in the gajillion sidetracks and sidequests that I forgot I was even trying to raise an army. And every time I was trying to get a people to join me, they wanted me to go help them, and that sidetracked me even further.
Some people might like this, but not me. A story is a story, and you have to have a goal or crossroads through which every players iteration of that story passes at some point, in order to have some nice progress.

Im going to post an image of how I see the different storylines in both, to show you what I mean. Excuse my paint skills.

[devSin]

Sylvianus wrote...

That's it. It was never said anything about the gameplay design, I think. It's a bit premature to think that Bioware is already fixed.

Go read all the various interviews and the few times Mike Laidlaw has come back to the forums (he's also affirmed that voiced protagonist is here to stay IIRC).

That's not to say they don't intend to bring some parts of Origins forward into future installments (or that they won't continue to change gameplay elements as needed).

But it's a bit disingenous to suggest that they haven't made it known that they're happy with the change in direction and that they intend to continue much the same in the future. You say it can change, and I agree that this is true, but I absolutely do not believe that will ever mean they return to something that plays more like Origins (than like Dragon Age II), and I have not seen them say anything that should lead other people to believe this.

I guess it depends on how you feel DA2 has actually been received. I personally don't think it's been received as poorly as some here would expect (indeed, as some here apparently hope for), but I imagine it'll be a long time before we find out (actually, we probably never will).

Modifié par devSin, 21 juillet 2011 - 10:25 .

[TEWR]

DAO's squigglies look like some sort of weird fish monster...