430 réponses à ce sujet

[Boiny Bunny]

How did we get onto proportions of female gamers? That isn't really what this topic is about. Also, please don't quote such rubbish studies here. They are based on asking a very small sample population a series of questions, then assuming that the results can be extrapolated to the entire world (as many 'studies' of today are).

They provide no real measure of the types of games that women play, nor the hours that are spend on them. The only way to obtain proper data to draw such conclusions would be to ask the gender of they player, then monitor the number of hours they spend on every game. If this could be aggregated across say, all Xbox LIVE users, PSN users, and Steam users, then you would be able to draw a much more accurate picture of what the % of 'hardcore' female gamers is (if you can define 'hardcore' quantitatively first, that is to say).

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:19 .

[Bugsie]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

How did we get onto proportions of female gamers? That isn't really what this topic is about. Also, please don't quote such rubbish studies here. They are based on asking a very small sample population a series of questions, then assuming that the results can be extrapolated to the entire world (as many 'studies' of today are).

They provide no real measure of the types of games that women play, nor the hours that are spend on them. The only way to obtain proper data to draw such conclusions would be to ask the gender of they player, then monitor the number of hours they spend on every game. If this could be aggregated across say, all Xbox LIVE users, PSN users, and Steam users, then you would be able to draw a much more accurate picture of what the % of 'hardcore' female gamers is (if you can define 'hardcore' quantitatively first, that is to say).

I'm not really sure you understand how sampling works in relation to population studies and making interpretations from the results.  The reason that many are based on smaller sample sizes is because it's actually extremely different to get large numbers for any study, the method for retrieving information is based on a variety of things not just size (although the larger the sample size the closer your estimate will be), but the reality is unless you survey every single female gamer and associated male gamer (and even then other factors will come into play like changing gaming habits) any information you draw will only ever be an estimate of what is occuring. 

Examining all Xbox LIVE users, PSN users, and Steam users, and monitoring every single game they play is impractical.  There are also many other factors you can introduce here, (beside gender) but then that will just muddy the water, to the point where you can never get close to ever answering the question you asked in the first place.

The measure they do provide is an estimate - how good that estimate will be is based on a number of other factors including probabilities of the descriptive statistics they've chosen to use. Poo poo these studies all you want, but the truth of the matter is a lot of good demographic and scientific studies are carried out on lesser numbers than those presented. 

[Sinapus]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Someone made a "penis" reference on the first page. I'm pretty sure it can't get any worse.

This is only at page 6. I'm still making my way through. Let it be known that anything I find that's worse than that is hereby your fault.

;)

[wolfsbane12]

As a guy, i get tired of the same dude character in every game so given the chance to pick m/f i chose femshep for a differnt gaming experience and quite enjoyed not only Jennifer Hale's performance but also seeing what is an archetypal male character so well embodied by a female.

Some of the obvious guys on this forum who take pot shots at women who talk about a strong female character or possible role model are just sad.
Just sayin.

[Quorrah]

Wait. Is this seriously a thread dedicated to FemSheps being more awesome then MaleSheps? wtf? This isn't the 1910's. FemSheps are just as important than the MaleSheps. And vice versa. o_O

This looks like a hoax for girls to get more attention. Oh brother. :x

*runs away before getting mobbed to death by my own gender*

[Scy Lancer]

Is feminism still an issue? I'm confused by this. I thought they could vote and stuff already. They want more prominent rolls in scifi series now? How far down the check list of equality have they gone now?
They want more parts in scifi. Then do it. No one is stopping them. Do it.

[Raiil]

Scy Lancer wrote...

Is feminism still an issue? I'm confused by this. I thought they could vote and stuff already. They want more prominent rolls in scifi series now? How far down the check list of equality have they gone now?
They want more parts in scifi. Then do it. No one is stopping them. Do it.

*pats* It's much more complicated than that, Scy. Feminism is so big that it belongs to no-one, and everyone.


However, in a lot of media, women tend to be shunted into the damsel in distress role, or as second to a male (essentially unable to work as a leader or on their own- and often when they are alone, they're complete b--ches and EVOL). Basically, femShep was a major moment for a lot of female sci-fi fans; we have a hero that can go about kicking ass and taking names, and we can do it without having to lean heavily on men for support, or being in a relationship, or being subserviant. 


I'm almost 30 now, but as a preteen and into my teens, there was a very big dearth of women in media that I could really look up to. For me, it was Storm; as a multiracial (and thus by definition minority) female myself, most of the women I saw in books, in movies, etc, were either boy-crazy idiots (see: the entire Sweet Valley High series) or strong-willed women 'saved' by the love of a man, and they were almost invariably always white. When I got into comics and saw Storm, it was a moment where there was a woman who was unapologetically strong, who was respected and whose respect was sought, who had nothing to prove to anyone because she was strong and every one knew it. Shepard, to me, is stepping into those shoes when played as femShep.


There's this popular (and incorrect) thought held by massive media players (movie execs, many video game directors/producers) that no one wants to see a woman in a lead role, and thus a cycle exists where women are never leads in anything besides dramas and romantic comedies (or leads in video games), and so everyone figures it's because no one wants to see them there, and so we never see female leads. It's not as simple as just writing it and making it. BioWare gets huge kudos for allowing us to choose the gender and facial composition (and by extension, race) and playing it straight- Shepard is a badass, no matter what gender we are or how we look. It's refreshing.

[Scy Lancer]

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

[MACharlie1]

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

Unfortunately, as I've said in a previous thread, feminism (or any issue for that matter) won't stop being an issue until nobody cares about it anymore. And by nobody cares I mean, the day when someone says that say a woman is president and the next guy over says "And...?" 

When Obama was elected, beside the fact that I voted for the other guy, it kinda peeved me that the front page of the local newspaper was "NATION ELECTS FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT". Its like for people who fight for equality and rawr rights - sure have a habit of bringing up those differences that we really should be ignoring when it comes down to serious matters. 

[xXljoshlXx]

Valentia X wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

Is feminism still an issue? I'm confused by this. I thought they could vote and stuff already. They want more prominent rolls in scifi series now? How far down the check list of equality have they gone now?
They want more parts in scifi. Then do it. No one is stopping them. Do it.

*pats* It's much more complicated than that, Scy. Feminism is so big that it belongs to no-one, and everyone.


However, in a lot of media, women tend to be shunted into the damsel in distress role, or as second to a male (essentially unable to work as a leader or on their own- and often when they are alone, they're complete b--ches and EVOL). Basically, femShep was a major moment for a lot of female sci-fi fans; we have a hero that can go about kicking ass and taking names, and we can do it without having to lean heavily on men for support, or being in a relationship, or being subserviant. 


I'm almost 30 now, but as a preteen and into my teens, there was a very big dearth of women in media that I could really look up to. For me, it was Storm; as a multiracial (and thus by definition minority) female myself, most of the women I saw in books, in movies, etc, were either boy-crazy idiots (see: the entire Sweet Valley High series) or strong-willed women 'saved' by the love of a man, and they were almost invariably always white. When I got into comics and saw Storm, it was a moment where there was a woman who was unapologetically strong, who was respected and whose respect was sought, who had nothing to prove to anyone because she was strong and every one knew it. Shepard, to me, is stepping into those shoes when played as femShep.


There's this popular (and incorrect) thought held by massive media players (movie execs, many video game directors/producers) that no one wants to see a woman in a lead role, and thus a cycle exists where women are never leads in anything besides dramas and romantic comedies (or leads in video games), and so everyone figures it's because no one wants to see them there, and so we never see female leads. It's not as simple as just writing it and making it. BioWare gets huge kudos for allowing us to choose the gender and facial composition (and by extension, race) and playing it straight- Shepard is a badass, no matter what gender we are or how we look. It's refreshing.

I don't understand how femShep was major movement for females honestly sheperd is just a vessel for you to interact with the mass effect universe unlike Storm who is an actual character. I don't think Bioware should get kudos for having a character custimazation. 

[Raiil]

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

From a legal viewpoint, you're correct, at least in some countries. Societally, it's like racism- we've made a lot of progress but we've still got a ways to go. Part of it is simply that it takes time to play catch up- women's rights are, in the span of existence, a fairly new phenemona and we're still acclimating. A hundred years ago, women were expected to stay at home and have children, in addition to the work needed to keep the family afloat. Today, many are still uncomfortable with the idea of women being primary breadwinners in a family or choosing career over family- and by many, I do mean men and women together. It's not just dudes being uncomfortable with it.

If you want to talk numerically, there are a fair few of media that have female protaganists. However, having them in an action role is pretty unusual. In visual media, whittling them down from just having a female in charge to having a female in charge that doesn't look like, well, Miranda, is somewhat of a rarity. There are a fair number of women who don't want to strut around in a catsuit or a gold bikini.  Put it this way- start doing a comparison between movies with a female lead, and movies with a female lead that isn't a romantic comedy or a period drama. Girls with guns are pretty rare. Girls with guns (or the appropriate equivalent) who aren't dressed alluringly are pretty thin on the ground. 


There are still discussions over feminine versus masculine, which may be inherent to the problem. A man who takes charge, is bold and decisive, and knows what he wants is often considered to be a strong guy. A woman who is the same is often considered to be a b--ch. I'm not saying you're one of those guys, but it is a stereotype that persists. Strong male is awesome. Strong female is a ball-buster, or so they say.


Feminism still exists because a) there are still some issues, there are some people with persecution complexes (yeah, I went there, come at me bro! er, sis) in particular cases and c) because feminism is such a broad field of thought and study that it's basically a giant blob with a lot of opinions. Feminism doesn't have one steady definition, thanks to the several different waves and schools of thought that permeate it.

[Raiil]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

Is feminism still an issue? I'm confused by this. I thought they could vote and stuff already. They want more prominent rolls in scifi series now? How far down the check list of equality have they gone now?
They want more parts in scifi. Then do it. No one is stopping them. Do it.

*pats* It's much more complicated than that, Scy. Feminism is so big that it belongs to no-one, and everyone.


However, in a lot of media, women tend to be shunted into the damsel in distress role, or as second to a male (essentially unable to work as a leader or on their own- and often when they are alone, they're complete b--ches and EVOL). Basically, femShep was a major moment for a lot of female sci-fi fans; we have a hero that can go about kicking ass and taking names, and we can do it without having to lean heavily on men for support, or being in a relationship, or being subserviant. 


I'm almost 30 now, but as a preteen and into my teens, there was a very big dearth of women in media that I could really look up to. For me, it was Storm; as a multiracial (and thus by definition minority) female myself, most of the women I saw in books, in movies, etc, were either boy-crazy idiots (see: the entire Sweet Valley High series) or strong-willed women 'saved' by the love of a man, and they were almost invariably always white. When I got into comics and saw Storm, it was a moment where there was a woman who was unapologetically strong, who was respected and whose respect was sought, who had nothing to prove to anyone because she was strong and every one knew it. Shepard, to me, is stepping into those shoes when played as femShep.


There's this popular (and incorrect) thought held by massive media players (movie execs, many video game directors/producers) that no one wants to see a woman in a lead role, and thus a cycle exists where women are never leads in anything besides dramas and romantic comedies (or leads in video games), and so everyone figures it's because no one wants to see them there, and so we never see female leads. It's not as simple as just writing it and making it. BioWare gets huge kudos for allowing us to choose the gender and facial composition (and by extension, race) and playing it straight- Shepard is a badass, no matter what gender we are or how we look. It's refreshing.

I don't understand how femShep was major movement for females honestly sheperd is just a vessel for you to interact with the mass effect universe unlike Storm who is an actual character. I don't think Bioware should get kudos for having a character custimazation. 

Because we were given the opportunity to play a badass woman who didn't flirt, waggle her hips, or seduce people into complying with them. Character customisation has existed for a while, but BioWare, imho, is one of the few companies willing to take a chance on their audience, knowing that a fair few of them are women, and say 'You know what? You count too. Your opinions and wants matter.' They gave us the opportunity to RP something some of us have wanted to be able to play as- a person who was tough as nails, who was smart, savvy, strong and skilled, and who happened to be a female. 


I've been a gamer since I was six. I'm 29 now. In 23 years of gaming, the chance to play a female whose ****** weren't flopping madly every time I made a move or who were dressed like a porno reject is both rare and a very nice change of pace.

[Scy Lancer]

...No I think things like that will always be an issue. First black president, first woman president, first midget in space, people like it when other people brake a chain and can step into new spotlights.
I guess what really threw me was the deal with females taking larger rolls in scifi and other mediums was to point out how few there were or to show how far they have come.

[Scy Lancer]

@Valentia
So it's more feminist want an integration into predominantly male character arcs?
WET was a good video game with an amazing female main character.
Lifetime and Oxygen television networks run the gambit of stories with female leads.
Hungers Game, though I have not read the books, I guess fallows a female protagonist and that series seems to be really popular.
I'll even through in the series I'm reading right now. Song of Fire and Ice. The female characters in that series are written so beautifully to stand along side the male characters. Neither male or female in a dominant position over the other.
...maybe it's more I don't see why people have a problem with, I'm not sure what to call it, the feminist ideal maybe? But then again I still don't understand feminism now a days.

[xXljoshlXx]

Scy Lancer wrote...

@Valentia
So it's more feminist want an integration into predominantly male character arcs?
WET was a good video game with an amazing female main character.
Lifetime and Oxygen television networks run the gambit of stories with female leads.
Hungers Game, though I have not read the books, I guess fallows a female protagonist and that series seems to be really popular.
I'll even through in the series I'm reading right now. Song of Fire and Ice. The female characters in that series are written so beautifully to stand along side the male characters. Neither male or female in a dominant position over the other.
...maybe it's more I don't see why people have a problem with, I'm not sure what to call it, the feminist ideal maybe? But then again I still don't understand feminism now a days.

 

I like how your first line sounded like you were upset at the premise of Women taking taking predominant male arcs but im pretty sure that's not how you meant it.

[Scy Lancer]

@Josh
Oh no I'm not upset. Just trying to figure it out is all. Just because I don't understand modern feminists doesn't mean I have anything against them.

[Comsky159]

Scy Lancer wrote...

...No I think things like that will always be an issue. First black president, first woman president, first midget in space, people like it when other people brake a chain and can step into new spotlights.
I guess what really threw me was the deal with females taking larger rolls in scifi and other mediums was to point out how few there were or to show how far they have come.

I just think good sci-fi literature transcends real-life socio-political agenda, I play ME to escape that stuff. If people want to make a point out of it they can go ahead, but I just like to think of it foremost as a bloody good game. Bioware has already proved themselves completely equitable and I we don't need them to go out of their way now to necessarily force any ideology.

Please, feel free to protest anywhere but in literature (particularly sci-fi), voids the aesthetics/romance of an experience.

[nightcobra]

Valentia X wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

From a legal viewpoint, you're correct, at least in some countries. Societally, it's like racism- we've made a lot of progress but we've still got a ways to go. Part of it is simply that it takes time to play catch up- women's rights are, in the span of existence, a fairly new phenemona and we're still acclimating. A hundred years ago, women were expected to stay at home and have children, in addition to the work needed to keep the family afloat. Today, many are still uncomfortable with the idea of women being primary breadwinners in a family or choosing career over family- and by many, I do mean men and women together. It's not just dudes being uncomfortable with it.

If you want to talk numerically, there are a fair few of media that have female protaganists. However, having them in an action role is pretty unusual. In visual media, whittling them down from just having a female in charge to having a female in charge that doesn't look like, well, Miranda, is somewhat of a rarity. There are a fair number of women who don't want to strut around in a catsuit or a gold bikini.  Put it this way- start doing a comparison between movies with a female lead, and movies with a female lead that isn't a romantic comedy or a period drama. Girls with guns are pretty rare. Girls with guns (or the appropriate equivalent) who aren't dressed alluringly are pretty thin on the ground. 


There are still discussions over feminine versus masculine, which may be inherent to the problem. A man who takes charge, is bold and decisive, and knows what he wants is often considered to be a strong guy. A woman who is the same is often considered to be a b--ch. I'm not saying you're one of those guys, but it is a stereotype that persists. Strong male is awesome. Strong female is a ball-buster, or so they say.


Feminism still exists because a) there are still some issues, there are some people with persecution complexes (yeah, I went there, come at me bro! er, sis) in particular cases and c) because feminism is such a broad field of thought and study that it's basically a giant blob with a lot of opinions. Feminism doesn't have one steady definition, thanks to the several different waves and schools of thought that permeate it.

i think it's more to the case that they can't portray a strong woman in the first place
the same qualities that makes a strong man also makes a strong woman, not a b--ch
but rather the qualities they're putting that would make a b--ch would make an a-hole out of the male counterpart.

[James2912]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

Unfortunately, as I've said in a previous thread, feminism (or any issue for that matter) won't stop being an issue until nobody cares about it anymore. And by nobody cares I mean, the day when someone says that say a woman is president and the next guy over says "And...?" 

When Obama was elected, beside the fact that I voted for the other guy, it kinda peeved me that the front page of the local newspaper was "NATION ELECTS FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT". Its like for people who fight for equality and rawr rights - sure have a habit of bringing up those differences that we really should be ignoring when it comes down to serious matters. 

I agree and i share your feelings! But I am not saying who I voted for. 

[kumquats]

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.

I envy you for your naivety.

[Goneaviking]

kumquats wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.

I envy you for your naivety.

I pity him for it. You don't need to be female to know that gender equality is still something glimpsed off in the distance more often than something genuinely achieved. The depiction of women in entertainment, and general expectations made of women in the home and family life should be enough to clue people to the reality.

The OP had a good point about it being a good thing when science fiction puts out female characters who are strong because they were raised to have the same expectations from life as men, but like others I don't believe that femshep is a good example of it, for the same reasons: 

Femshep is virtually identical to Maleshep in almost every way and that default Shep shown in previews and artwork is almost always Maleshep suggests that she's not really written to be female. The female NPCs generally, but not always, make for better examples of feminist rolemodels.

[jamesp81]

nhsk wrote...

The more people scream about wanting something the less sympathetic I get for their cause and less inclined, if I was in charge, to giving it to them.

Strange how my brain work.

You're not the only one.

I'm generally inclined to treat everyone the same.  If they yell and shout and demand and generally walk around with chips on their shoulders.....that changes.

I'll usually give people what they ask for.  I'm just like that, for whatever reason.  I will also tend to resist any attempt to take it by force.  I also tend to not get on well with people who assume that I must be part of the problem.  I make no such assumption about people I don't know.  If I'm going to be treated that way, I will ensure their treatment is justified, so to speak

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 juillet 2011 - 03:05 .

[jamesp81]

Shepard Lives wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Hey look at all the insecure guys with small penises in this thread.

I'm not too sold on the small penis insinuations, but I agree with the basic sentiment. Dudes get their knickers in such a twist. Relax, people. We're not being overwhelmed or anything. As I've already said, we can endure a little bashing considering the amount of spotlight-hogging perpetrated by the male gender since forever.

Pardon me, but I did not cause that nor encourage it.  Therefore, it is not my fault.  I will deal with it the same as I would any other unjust accusation.

[jamesp81]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Scy Lancer wrote...

I guess I don't understand why there is feminism in this day and age. It's not like anyone is stopping a woman from being what they want or taking up a roll that they want. Ok, maybe there are people who are doing that, but it's against the law and over all ridicules.
There are many movies, tv shows, video games, and books that have strong female leads.Is it that there isn't enough? Or that no one is making female characters specifically geared for the main roll?
Thanks for the pat, but I guess I just don't see what's wrong.
Also think that the FemShep is a really great character to play.

Unfortunately, as I've said in a previous thread, feminism (or any issue for that matter) won't stop being an issue until nobody cares about it anymore. And by nobody cares I mean, the day when someone says that say a woman is president and the next guy over says "And...?" 

When Obama was elected, beside the fact that I voted for the other guy, it kinda peeved me that the front page of the local newspaper was "NATION ELECTS FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT". Its like for people who fight for equality and rawr rights - sure have a habit of bringing up those differences that we really should be ignoring when it comes down to serious matters. 

I think MACharlie gets it.

[KyreneZA]

femShep doesn't matter, else her looks would also have been based off a European model (in itself a stereotype). femShep doesn't matter, else her actions in the game would have promoted feminism more. femShep doesn't matter, else her rigging would not have been based off maleShep.

OTOH, do I really want my daughter to aspire to a reneb*tch, or a parasofty femShep? Do I really want my son to only play femSheps as punishment for being male?

I don't generally agree with them, but for f*ck sakes, the S/S crowd have more to bleat about than the poorly done by feminsts in the ME franchise.