22 réponses à ce sujet

[zapkeet]

with the Fade for example, why is it that if you try to coax them out of their temptation in a FRIENDLY manner, it gives you the most rivalry points (where you can't override it even with their apology speech later), but if you choose the more aggressive response, it doesn't net you as many rivalry points

seems kind of odd to me

[elearon1]

My guess would be, because it makes them feel bad about themselves.  If you give them a target by being aggressive, they feel less like they are crawling to you on their knees, or being patted on the head, but they are actually being treated like adults who are confronted for their weaknesses ... it is more respectful.

Modifié par elearon1, 20 juillet 2011 - 09:34 .

[Torax]

I'm guessing that you're talking about Merrill? She gives -10 for both diplomatic & aggressive. It's the sarcastic one that give 10 friendship. You can get +15 friendship in the conversation after if you choose both both diplomatic or a sarcastic and then diplomatic responses. If you do 2x sarcastic or any aggressive responses you'll get more rivalry. I only assume it's merrill cause the rest don't really give much in rivalry if at all for disagreement.

[zapkeet]

Torax wrote...

I'm guessing that you're talking about Merrill? She gives -10 for both diplomatic & aggressive. It's the sarcastic one that give 10 friendship. You can get +15 friendship in the conversation after if you choose both both diplomatic or a sarcastic and then diplomatic responses. If you do 2x sarcastic or any aggressive responses you'll get more rivalry. I only assume it's merrill cause the rest don't really give much in rivalry if at all for disagreement.

actually, it's +20 rivalry if you use the diplomatic solution, and so you can only get +15 friendship afterwards...hence a total of -5 rivalry...

granted I don't know why i even bother with Merill I'm very pro-mage but very anti-demon.  Hence, I can't get her out of neutrality, not a fan of Isabella either since her personality isn't for me.  Blahhhh, there is no girl for me in this game ;_;

[Torax]

It's why you go Rival with Merrill. To convince her that Demons are bad. Her whole Rival/Friendship has nothing to do with Templars & Mages and everything to do with Spirits. Well and the whole Mirror is bad thing. Hawke doesn't ride her on the Blood Magic much.

Her Rivalry is pretty easy to get to. Like destorying all the books when you come across them. Refuse to give her the tool. Stuff like that. She'll even kick you out of her house at one point. I like that she is at least standing up for herself during it. Heh.

Modifié par Torax, 20 juillet 2011 - 10:29 .

[Wulfram]

Destroying the "evil tomes" gets you +10 rivalry each, which should solve any stuck in the middle problems if you want to go rivalry.

[zapkeet]

Torax wrote...

It's why you go Rival with Merrill. To convince her that Demons are bad. Her whole Rival/Friendship has nothing to do with Templars & Mages and everything to do with Spirits. Well and the whole Mirror is bad thing. Hawke doesn't ride her on the Blood Magic much.

Her Rivalry is pretty easy to get to. Like destorying all the books when you come across them. Refuse to give her the tool. Stuff like that. She'll even kick you out of her house at one point. I like that she is at least standing up for herself during it. Heh.

that's just it though, if it has nothing to do with templars and mages, why does she get approval whenever i choose to help mages?

It wouldn't be that big of a deal if it was like origins, but there are so few options to get the points that it seems blahhh

granted, I've only gotten +15 for her at the moment total, so I doubt it's too late...

[RampantAndroid]

elearon1 wrote...

My guess would be, because it makes them feel bad about themselves.  If you give them a target by being aggressive, they feel less like they are crawling to you on their knees, or being patted on the head, but they are actually being treated like adults who are confronted for their weaknesses ... it is more respectful.

Well, you have to admit it's better than in DAO where you just throw gifts at everyone and worry about approval ratings because people might leave your party/not give personal quests...even if it makes little sense.

[zapkeet]

RampantAndroid wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

My guess would be, because it makes them feel bad about themselves.  If you give them a target by being aggressive, they feel less like they are crawling to you on their knees, or being patted on the head, but they are actually being treated like adults who are confronted for their weaknesses ... it is more respectful.

Well, you have to admit it's better than in DAO where you just throw gifts at everyone and worry about approval ratings because people might leave your party/not give personal quests...even if it makes little sense.

true, i'm just saying that the point of origin's system was that you could follow your own morality, and they would react differently in how you reacted, but you could still make friends by finding them gifts

in this one...eh, I just wish there were more instances to gain rivalry/frienship points...and that they didn't overflow so easily.  Merrill is definitely a unique character in that aspect, but i think the game thinks that, because i'm pro-mage and anti-demon, that I don't care about her because the bar is at neutral.  Which isn't true at all.  Granted, this IS the first playthrough where she is in my main party, so hopefully i'll be able to notice more opportunities

[Torax]

How deep in so far are you with her? Have you even done mirror image yet? That is kind of the deciding factor for the most part for her rivalry

[zapkeet]

also, another curious point. I know that if you give them gifts then it will improve their rivalry OR friendship based on how far they are leaning. However, what about if you use the companion choice in the options (such as asking a mage to determine if someone is possessed). Is that always friendship? or does that lean one way or the other?

[zapkeet]

Torax wrote...

How deep in so far are you with her? Have you even done mirror image yet? That is kind of the deciding factor for the most part for her rivalry

not yet, I've only just gotten her in act 1.  So if i bring her with me, stay anti demon but pro-mage, i should be able to get a rival romance with her?

[Torax]

aye, I've only ever disagreed with her on Demons and the Mirror. You can get a ton of Rivalry thanks to things like Night Terrors, Not giving her the item she wants from her Act 2 quest. Destroying all the demon books in front of her. Just that quest and it's follow up conversations should knock you right deep into rivalry if you're not skirting it already.

p.s. the wiki has lists for which give rivalry and which give friendship sorted based on the path you want to take. Here is merrill's. I just didn't want to spoil it all for you.

http://dragonage.wik...errill/Approval

Just did a running total from the wiki. With all the books it's a grand total of 240 Rivalry not including gifts.

Modifié par Torax, 21 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[RampantAndroid]

zapkeet wrote...

true, i'm just saying that the point of origin's system was that you could follow your own morality, and they would react differently in how you reacted, but you could still make friends by finding them gifts

in this one...eh, I just wish there were more instances to gain rivalry/frienship points...and that they didn't overflow so easily.  Merrill is definitely a unique character in that aspect, but i think the game thinks that, because i'm pro-mage and anti-demon, that I don't care about her because the bar is at neutral.  Which isn't true at all.  Granted, this IS the first playthrough where she is in my main party, so hopefully i'll be able to notice more opportunities

Sure, I see what you mean; I'm just starting act 3 and never have her in my party, but have almost maxed her out. A lot comes from the companion quests with her.

As for the system, well - I prefer the DA2 system, really. I can do as I want to do, and not worry about finding all the gifts (and who they belong to) and people leaving.

Really, the system I want is this: if people disagree with you, they don't hang out. You don't have a set of 7 possible companions, the world is your pool of possible companions. If your party doesn't agree with you, find ones who do and are up to the task. Hard to implement, sure - but a hell of a lot more fulfilling to play, I imagine.

And for the people who normally disagree with you, they'll tag along on certain quests that appeal to them. IE: I want more depth 

[jaybee93]

zapkeet wrote...

also, another curious point. I know that if you give them gifts then it will improve their rivalry OR friendship based on how far they are leaning. However, what about if you use the companion choice in the options (such as asking a mage to determine if someone is possessed). Is that always friendship? or does that lean one way or the other?

I've never used the companion choice in the dialogue options without gaining friendship, unless they're already maxed. So yes, I think this is always a plus, like saying to your friend, "Glad you're here with your unique skillset." Not likely to make them mad.

[Knight of Dane]

jaybee93 wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

also, another curious point. I know that if you give them gifts then it will improve their rivalry OR friendship based on how far they are leaning. However, what about if you use the companion choice in the options (such as asking a mage to determine if someone is possessed). Is that always friendship? or does that lean one way or the other?

I've never used the companion choice in the dialogue options without gaining friendship, unless they're already maxed. So yes, I think this is always a plus, like saying to your friend, "Glad you're here with your unique skillset." Not likely to make them mad.

There is one case in the hanged man act 3 if you bring Isabela along you can ask her to sleep with Emile De Launcet, that will gain 15+ Rivalry.

[Wulfram]

RampantAndroid wrote...

As for the system, well - I prefer the DA2 system, really. I can do as I want to do, and not worry about finding all the gifts (and who they belong to) and people leaving.

Whereas for me I find the opposite. 
In Origins I can do what I want without much problem - Zevran aside, people will leave only if I set out to ****** them off or I do something they'll obviously find totally abhorrent - though I should probably try to be vaguely nice to my intended romance.

In DA2, on the other hand...
Fenris will try to kill me because I don't support slavery and blood magic. 
The game will assume I don't support free mages if I take exception to Anders' being possessed by a spirit which makes him kill innocent mage girls.  Or, if I end up on the friendship side, it assumes I'm totally fine with him being possessed by a murderous spirit just because I want mages to be free.
Trying to discourage a holy war wipes out most of my attempts to persuade Sebastian to fight for his principality
Isabela may well leave if I'm morally upstanding but have something of a sense of humour.

I feel I have to metagame far more in DA2

[jaybee93]

Knight of Dane wrote...

jaybee93 wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

also, another curious point. I know that if you give them gifts then it will improve their rivalry OR friendship based on how far they are leaning. However, what about if you use the companion choice in the options (such as asking a mage to determine if someone is possessed). Is that always friendship? or does that lean one way or the other?

I've never used the companion choice in the dialogue options without gaining friendship, unless they're already maxed. So yes, I think this is always a plus, like saying to your friend, "Glad you're here with your unique skillset." Not likely to make them mad.

There is one case in the hanged man act 3 if you bring Isabela along you can ask her to sleep with Emile De Launcet, that will gain 15+ Rivalry.

*l* Oh right... I'd forgotten that. Poor Bella.

[bleetman]

zapkeet wrote...

Torax wrote...

How deep in so far are you with her? Have you even done mirror image yet? That is kind of the deciding factor for the most part for her rivalry

not yet, I've only just gotten her in act 1.  So if i bring her with me, stay anti demon but pro-mage, i should be able to get a rival romance with her?

You're not required to consistently rivalry her to fulfill a rivalmance. Any friendship points - provided you haven't maxed it out - will be undone during Mirror Image if you pick the rivalry option.

In fact, it's my understanding that doing so in combination with the two followup conversations you can have with her back in the alienage, plus the actual romance scene, are enough to max out her rivalry regardless of where you are beforehand. I've only ever needed to gain any rivalry with her beforehand to prevent her friendship from maxing out. It's not something you need to specifically pursue.

Modifié par bleetman, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:24 .

[zapkeet]

alright, sounds good

also noticed that her rivalry talent is called "outcast", which is minor but does anyone else think that's a nitpicky detail? She isn't an outcast if you stand by her side but just choose to be against her actions

[Torax]

It's called Outcast because she was basically an outcast of her people. Since you followed the Rivalry path you also backed the opinions of her people. So to a point that makes her even more of an outcast in a sense.

[maxernst]

Wulfram wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

As for the system, well - I prefer the DA2 system, really. I can do as I want to do, and not worry about finding all the gifts (and who they belong to) and people leaving.

Whereas for me I find the opposite. 
In Origins I can do what I want without much problem - Zevran aside, people will leave only if I set out to ****** them off or I do something they'll obviously find totally abhorrent - though I should probably try to be vaguely nice to my intended romance.

In DA2, on the other hand...
Fenris will try to kill me because I don't support slavery and blood magic. 
The game will assume I don't support free mages if I take exception to Anders' being possessed by a spirit which makes him kill innocent mage girls.  Or, if I end up on the friendship side, it assumes I'm totally fine with him being possessed by a murderous spirit just because I want mages to be free.
Trying to discourage a holy war wipes out most of my attempts to persuade Sebastian to fight for his principality
Isabela may well leave if I'm morally upstanding but have something of a sense of humour.

I feel I have to metagame far more in DA2

I'm totally with you on this.  My Hawke mostly tried to steer a cautious middle path, while wisecracking away. On my playthrough, Fenris tried to kill me and Isabela took off. Anders killed Ella.  Merrill was almost dead in the middle of the scale at the end of the game, despite the fact that she was with me for every single quest in Act 2 & 3 (she was my only mage, used Anders only for dissent and dropped him).  Bethany and Varric were the only people I maxed out (friendship in both cases) and I didn't go far into rivalry with anyone.

I think if you're not a highly confrontational personality and don't take an extreme viewpoint on the mage issue, that it's almost impossible to keep the companions around without metagaming.

Modifié par maxernst, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:09 .

[Sepewrath]

Wulfram wrote...
Whereas for me I find the opposite. 
In Origins I can do what I want without much problem - Zevran aside, people will leave only if I set out to ****** them off or I do something they'll obviously find totally abhorrent - though I should probably try to be vaguely nice to my intended romance.

In DA2, on the other hand...
Fenris will try to kill me because I don't support slavery and blood magic. 
The game will assume I don't support free mages if I take exception to Anders' being possessed by a spirit which makes him kill innocent mage girls.  Or, if I end up on the friendship side, it assumes I'm totally fine with him being possessed by a murderous spirit just because I want mages to be free.
Trying to discourage a holy war wipes out most of my attempts to persuade Sebastian to fight for his principality
Isabela may well leave if I'm morally upstanding but have something of a sense of humour.

I feel I have to metagame far more in DA2

That's why I by far prefer DA2, everything in Origins was so mechanical, its like people's personalities, your actions none of that mattered outside of "that big thing, that really pissed them off" but you could be an absolute jerk a downright evil person, but as long as your nice to Leli and give her some shoes, she'll be your best friend, despite your many character flaws. I like the fact that in DA2, it is about personality, that it is about actions, that if you want to make these relationships synthetic, that you are forced to metagame instead of them just being synthetic to start with.