134 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Arcian wrote...

Paragon = Sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Renegade = Sacrifice the many for the good of the few.

You've got that backwards, Balak is a perfect example. Paragon Shepard is perfectly willing to let Balak live to bomb an entire colony and kill millions of people another day, just to save a few lives and appease his self-righteousness.

While Renegade Shepard on the other hand will lose a few people to ensure Balak can never again entertain the idea of killing millions of colonists by dropping an asteroid on them. 

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 juillet 2011 - 11:38 .

[Aimi]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Oh good, it's been a while since we had a nice paragon/renegade flamewar.

hahaha

so was the joke the fact that they happen all the time, or was it the fact that there's no such thing as a "nice" flamewar about this stuff

or both I suppose

[Lumikki]

marshalleck wrote...

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council.

This wasn't so good example from you. Council was inside they flag ship, The Destiny Ascension what included 10000 crew. Losses for human fleet was heavy, but less than 10000.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:22 .

[SandTrout]

Lumikki wrote...

This wasn't so good example from you. Council was inside they flag ship, The Destiny Ascension what included 10000 crew. Losses for human fleet was heavy, but less than 10000.

While factually accurate, it does not represent how the situation was presented to the player at the time. We were esentially told that we could recomend saving the DA and the council at the cost of human vessels that may be required to defeat Sovereign, with no clear knowlege as to how many ships would be lost, or the crew size of the DA.

We only learned that the DA had as many crew as it did (and more than it should have, IMO) until ME2. The decision at the time was "expend functioning ships to save a disabled one with critical leaders on board, while risking not being able to take down Sovereign in time" or "allow 1 disable ship to be destroyed with critical leaders on board so that you have more firepower to throw at sovereign."

It actually bugged me a lot when I was told that it had a crew of 10,000. There is no good Reason to have that many crew on a ship that is that advanced. Many duties that would normally require crew on a modern navy vessel of similar scale would be taken over by technology and VI.
It should have had a crew of maybe 1k, and most of those for maintenance.

The SR1/2 was of similar scale as a modern submarine, which is normally manned by about 150 people, but the SR1 had only a few dozen crew, even assuming that we only saw 1/3 of the crew at any given time.

That's really a side issue for me, though.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

OP, if the trend continues, yes... you won't see a more positive outcome.

I think it's interesting btw that some Paragon pickers feel so 'superior' in their thinking... doesn't occur to them how those same actions would work in the real world or that Bioware could've easily made those choices play out differently... and arguably still can...

The outcome is the only leg any risk taker (putting the council before the galaxy, etc.) can stand on.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:03 .

[Undertone]

Ieldra2 wrote...

All I can say is this:

If pragmatic decisions that make strategic sense at the cost of morals don't occasionally have a strategic benefit over their alternatives, then something is wrong with the way the universe is designed.

QFT.

This nails it perfectly.

[Undertone]

marshalleck wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Paragon = Sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Renegade = Sacrifice the many for the good of the few.

You've got that backwards, Balak is a perfect example. Paragon Shepard is perfectly willing to let Balak live to bomb an entire colony and kill millions of people another day, just to save a few lives and appease his self-righteousness.

While Renegade Shepard on the other hand will lose a few people to ensure Balak can never again entertain the idea of killing millions of colonists by dropping an asteroid on them. 

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council. 

Another wise man.

And you could call me a butt-hurt renegade but it's a fact none of the decisions bite a paragon. Hell you can even talk-jutsu Zaeed regardless that Shep is the reason he lost 20 years of his life ruining his revenge. If somebody did this to me I would kill them the first chance I got.  

[Massadonious1]

Right, the "real world". People can rationalize these decisions as the "best choice" because there are no real world implications, just changes to the pixels on the screen. You can act out your specific ideology without actual repercussions. But, if you honestly think you could make the same choices if the lives of 10,000, a million, a planet's worth, or even 1 REAL person was in your specific hands, then you're either deluding yourself, or you're a psychopath.

Most of us will never have that power. To say you would know what to do with it is ludicrous.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:15 .

[nhsk]

No they won't, but no choices will have any real impact before the epilogue.

[Seboist]

Undertone wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Paragon = Sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Renegade = Sacrifice the many for the good of the few.

You've got that backwards, Balak is a perfect example. Paragon Shepard is perfectly willing to let Balak live to bomb an entire colony and kill millions of people another day, just to save a few lives and appease his self-righteousness.

While Renegade Shepard on the other hand will lose a few people to ensure Balak can never again entertain the idea of killing millions of colonists by dropping an asteroid on them. 

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council. 

Another wise man.

And you could call me a butt-hurt renegade but it's a fact none of the decisions bite a paragon. Hell you can even talk-jutsu Zaeed regardless that Shep is the reason he lost 20 years of his life ruining his revenge. If somebody did this to me I would kill them the first chance I got.  

Paragon can also get away with betraying Garrus in his LM at the last minute without ANY prior knowledge of Sidonis' motivation. Shepard doesn't even have to use any talk-jutsu afterwords!

Also if the evidence is submitted in Tali's LM(which is a renegade action for some reason) there isn't any intimidate talk-jutsu option to get her loyalty.

Modifié par Seboist, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:21 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

@Massadonious1, depends on how well you roleplay and (to perhaps a lesser extent) what your personal history is.

Anyone can have power... how well they'd use it is based on the person that has it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:23 .

[Lumikki]

SandTrout wrote...

It actually bugged me a lot when I was told that it had a crew of 10,000. There is no good Reason to have that many crew on a ship that is that advanced. Many duties that would normally require crew on a modern navy vessel of similar scale would be taken over by technology and VI.
It should have had a crew of maybe 1k, and most of those for maintenance.

The SR1/2 was of similar scale as a modern submarine, which is normally manned by about 150 people, but the SR1 had only a few dozen crew, even assuming that we only saw 1/3 of the crew at any given time.

That's really a side issue for me, though.

Flag ship size was huge, compare to example Normandy. Like ant standing next to elefant.

So, while bigger ship has less crew compared to size, bigger ships does have more crew in general. So, when you have like 1000 times bigger ship, it's gonna have a lot of crew too.

Not knowing battle details enough for making decissions.. Mm.. little issues yes, but often you don't know everyting, if you aren't directly part of them. Like it was in Shepard case.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[Undertone]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Right, the "real world". People can rationalize these decisions as the "best choice" because there are no real world implications, just changes to the pixels on the screen. You can act out your specific ideology without actual repercussions. But, if you honestly think you could make the same choices if the lives of 10,000, a million, a planet's worth, or even 1 REAL person was in your specific hands, then you're either deluding yourself, or you're a psychopath.

Most of us will never have that power. To say you would know what to do with it is ludicrous.

You can say that for your life. Don't assume it's the same for everyone.

And I was talking about it from metagame perspective. Even if it's not "real world", there's a level of suspension of disblief. That's why Shepard can't stop bullets with a magic wave like Neo. Same goes with choices. You have a hardcore merc who has indulged in violence almost his entire life and focused and dreamed about revenge for the past 20 years and Shepard ruins that moment. You seriously expect such person to get convinced in 1 minute and become loyal to Shep? To me that spells jarring inconsistency with the character and another of those talk-jutsu moments for paragons.

[SandTrout]

Lumikki wrote...
Flag ship size was huge, compare to example Normandy. Like ant standing next to elefant.

So, while bigger ship has less crew compared to size, bigger ships does have more crew in general. So, when you have like 1000 times bigger ship, it's gonna have a lot of crew too.

Not knowing battle details enough for making decissions.. Mm.. little issues yes, but often you don't know everyting, if you aren't directly part of them. Like it was in Shepard case.

I am not saying that the DA should have the same crew size as the Normandy. I would compare the DA to a large aircraft carrier, in terms of modern analogs. The largest US carriers have a crew of about 5-6k, including air-crew (pilots and associated maintenance personnel). Considering the nature of the DA as a non-carrier dreadnought, it makes no sense at all that they would have a 10k crew size. As I said in my initial post on the topic, 1k crew is a more reasonable number, IMO.

[Lumikki]

SandTrout wrote...

As I said in my initial post on the topic, 1k crew is a more reasonable number, IMO.

I ques we all have our own ideas about this. In my opinion other hand 10k was very small size of crew for that size of ship.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:46 .

[SandTrout]

Lumikki wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

As I said in my initial post on the topic, 1k crew is a more reasonable number, IMO.

I ques we all have our own ideas about this. In my opinion other hand 10k was very small size of crew for that size of ship.

Having actually served in the Navy, I honestly cannot think of what possitions 10k crew could occupy. Every person on a ship has a job to do, and there are a limited number of possitions that might need to be filled on this type of craft:

Targeting, piloting, navigation, sensors, communications, network, food-service, engines, on-board power, weapon maintenance, life support, supply distribution, onboard stores, paperwork, medical. Those jobs involved with maintenance would take up the majority of the number.

If the DA needs 10k crew in order to keep in operational, then it is using execeptionally unreliable technology, which makes little sense, considering how long the Asari have be in space, and their technology has not advanced significantly beyond that of Humans. New technology is always the least reliable, but Asari tech has been in use for centruries.

[Feanor_II]

Well, all of us had asumed that Paragon = Good......

But who knows, maybe some paragon decisions taken in the previous games have a negative oucome, the could surprise us.

Who will asure us that curing Krogans is good? Maybe Mordin was right and posibilities led to massive war.
Was really a good idea destroying Collector Base? Surely with it Cerberus will have the upper hand, but maybe losing that technology could be fatal
And so.......

[PPF65]

marshalleck wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Paragon = Sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Renegade = Sacrifice the many for the good of the few.

You've got that backwards, Balak is a perfect example. Paragon Shepard is perfectly willing to let Balak live to bomb an entire colony and kill millions of people another day, just to save a few lives and appease his self-righteousness.

While Renegade Shepard on the other hand will lose a few people to ensure Balak can never again entertain the idea of killing millions of colonists by dropping an asteroid on them. 

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council. 

Renegades hand the Collector base over to Cerberus. If you acctually trust TIM with that kind of technology then you're just stupid. This is especially when you consider that he sent you into the Collostor Ship knowing it was a trap, and told people you were with Cerberus when it would have been much easier to enlist help if he hadn't.

You don't give a narcissistic sociopath like TIM that kind of power.

Also, if you play totally a renegade, then you don't even try to warn the Batarians that the Alpha Relay is about to go off like a supernova in Arrival. Thats the difference between doing something because its the lesser of two evils, and commiting a war crime because it makes your life easier.

Modifié par PPF65, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:40 .

[PPF65]

double post... you didn't see nothing...

Modifié par PPF65, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:40 .

[Isaidlunch]

Nevermind, I'm not going to start a TIM flame war.

Modifié par Kazanth, 22 juillet 2011 - 10:22 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

PPF65 wrote...
Renegades hand the Collector base over to Cerberus. If you acctually trust TIM with that kind of technology then you're just stupid. This is especially when you consider that he sent you into the Collostor Ship knowing it was a trap, and told people you were with Cerberus when it would have been much easier to enlist help if he hadn't.

You don't give a narcissistic sociopath like TIM that kind of power.

Also, if you play totally a renegade, then you don't even try to warn the Batarians that the Alpha Relay is about to go off like a supernova in Arrival. Thats the difference between doing something because its the lesser of two evils, and commiting a war crime because it makes your life easier.

Someone missed the fact that Shepard's been working with Cerberus throughout Mass Effect 2 to rescue humans and develop counter technology against the Collector threat.  So now that humanity is temporarily in the clear you don't continue working with Cerberus against the galaxy-wide threat that started the relationship in the first place?

TIM can have various reasons for doing what he did... some of which has been vindicated by game facts.. For example... it's now known that the Shadowbroker, Liara, and the Geth can spy and have spied (or tried to spy) on the events and intel transpiring on the Normandy.  The Shadowbroker in particular sells information and isn't above dealing with the Collectors.  Justifiable.

TIM telling people Shepard's working with Cerberus squashes whether Shepard was kidnapped (or even working against his own will to some extent).  Less of a shock after 2 years of nothing when word of Shepard's status is revealed beforehand.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 juillet 2011 - 10:34 .

[Undertone]

PPF65 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Paragon = Sacrifice a few for the good of the many.
Renegade = Sacrifice the many for the good of the few.

You've got that backwards, Balak is a perfect example. Paragon Shepard is perfectly willing to let Balak live to bomb an entire colony and kill millions of people another day, just to save a few lives and appease his self-righteousness.

While Renegade Shepard on the other hand will lose a few people to ensure Balak can never again entertain the idea of killing millions of colonists by dropping an asteroid on them. 

Another example would be Paragons throwing the Alliance fleet into a blender just to save the Council. 

Renegades hand the Collector base over to Cerberus. If you acctually trust TIM with that kind of technology then you're just stupid. This is especially when you consider that he sent you into the Collostor Ship knowing it was a trap, and told people you were with Cerberus when it would have been much easier to enlist help if he hadn't.

You don't give a narcissistic sociopath like TIM that kind of power.

Also, if you play totally a renegade, then you don't even try to warn the Batarians that the Alpha Relay is about to go off like a supernova in Arrival. Thats the difference between doing something because its the lesser of two evils, and commiting a war crime because it makes your life easier.

Typical paragon self-righteousness. I wonder how many of you would have actually played paragon if the two games so far weren't designed that every choice works out for you.

You see the tree but don't see the forest. Trusting TIM is irrelevant, you need all resources, technology or information you can get to defeat the Reapers. In my eyes you are total moron for blowing up the first and only oppurtunity so far that Shepard has of obtaing such tech and learning something from it. In actuality however the base will only play minor role in terms of ME3 just like every choice.

The Collector Ship could have written a big sign "It's a TRAP" [insert Admiral Ackbar pic] and it would have been less obvious. Are you kidding me? Some random turians managed to bring it down and by sheer perfect chance disable it's power but leave it intact. Uh-huh. And where were the remains of  the destroyed ship? Or why don't we meet any crew resistance in the beginning. You had to be a moron not to know it's a trap from the start.

More help if TIM didn't say Shep was with Cerberus? Uhm have you actually spoken to the Council? Or Anderson or VS? Or the rest of your initial crew? This doesn't have to do anything with Cerberus. Have you even played ME1? The whole reason why they made Shep a Spectre was because they didn't want to send ships and trigger a war in the Terminus systems. What kind of help are you talking about?

Warning the batarians is inconsequential - you can't help them either way. Why waste time when actually the clock is ticking and you are going to die unless you get to your ship pronto.

[Blooddrunk1004]

They should made it like first KOTOR.
Both Light and Dark side endings were very good and satisfying.
Although i prefer the dark ending.

[Undertone]

There are tons of ways to balance paragon and renegade. First make persuation separate from morality. Second renegade shouldn't equal less content.

Take the Council choice - make paragon Shepard popular with the aliens and hated by humans. Make Renegade Shep - popular with humans and hated by aliens. Meet the New Council and have the new human councillor congratulate you (in private) for advancing mankind. Or if it's full human Council have it all congratulate you and promote you.

Modifié par Undertone, 22 juillet 2011 - 10:45 .