134 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fu*** Paragon and Renagade system. Hate the labels. Hate the system. I want ot see it gone. No more of htat paragon/renegade bull***, just choices and cohnsequences.

Unfortunately, Bioware loves their morality meters and the blue=good, red= bad training we got from playing their other games is stil here.
I pitty people who cna't break away from this polarising and limiting way of thinking. And I pitty the developers who can't let go of it. I would like nothing mroe than to see that mater, and hte bonuses for maxing htem out, gone.


Speaking of choices, the why I'd do it would be the folloowing:
- no single choice dooms/saves you...rather the combination thereoff.

So, if you kept the base - huge boost for you. Humanity gets better pew-pew or something.
A "paragon" player who destroyed it, doesn't get that huge boost, but if he kept legion and dealt with the quarians, he might get 2 fleets to compensate.

[LiquidLogic2020]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Roxy12 wrote...

Holding the human fleet back does nothing - they would have had to wait until the Citadel's arms opened anyway. So you wait until the geth had destroyed the Ascension - and hope for the best?

The Citadel fleet is dealing with the Geth, they're being swarmed and  the Destiny Ascension's capabilities to serve any purpose in combat is offline (as said by their announcement when they contact you).

You're told that Sovereign is trying to regain control fo the station and you're asked if you should stay back to keep your reinforcements for Sovereign or send them in to fight to (maybe, don't forget that it's entirely possible to fail due to the Destiny Ascension being really weak) save the Destiny Ascension and deal with the Geth fleet.

Shepard has control of the station at the time, (s)he makes the call as the arms are starting to open. There's a lot of gambling on the Paragon decision that everything will work out just fine and you'll be capable of taking out Sovereign without the destroyed Alliance ships.

Otherwise, galactic extinction!

I saw that as a chance to earn humanity galactic respect myself, show them that we arnt self centred ect. I just hope mass 3 is better for those of use that actualy role play insted of grinding para/rene points.

[Ieldra]

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...
Who even goes all the way paragon or renegade? That would just mean your playing through the game as a really dull character.

You'd be surprised I think.

But the problem is not limited to full Paragons or Renegades. It's the single decisions and their consequences which are the problem. Regardless of whether you play mostly Paragon or Renegade, the consequences should be believable. You wouldn't think that if you read my posts, but most of my Shepards have more Paragon than Renegade points. It's exactly because I am aware of the costs that Paragon decisions should have that I consider it important that my Renegade decisions occasionally pay off.

Most people who stop to think about the decisions before they select an option don't make Renegade decisions for the lulz or because they like playing sociopathic jerks, but because they think Shepard cannot affort the risk of making a Paragon decision in this particular instance. We should be correct sometimes.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:13 .

[LiquidLogic2020]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LiquidLogic2020 wrote...
Who even goes all the way paragon or renegade? That would just mean your playing through the game as a really dull character.

You'd be surprised I think.

But the problem is not limited to full Paragons or Renegades. It's the single decisions and their consequences which are the problem. Regardless of whether you play mostly Paragon or Renegade, the consequences should be believable. You wouldn't think that if you read my posts, but most of my Shepards have more Paragon than Renegade points. It's exactly because I am aware of the costs that Paragon decisions should have that I consider it important that my Renegade decisions occasionally pay off.

Most people who stop to think about the decisions before they select an option don't make Renegade decisions for the lulz or because they like playing sociopathic jerks, but because they think Shepard cannot affort the risk of making a Paragon decision in this particular instance. We should be correct sometimes.

Thats sort of what im saying though, the only real reson to go all the way para/rene is simply so you can coerce everyone. So your actualy punished for making the choices you want to since your be left with moderatly low scores for both.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The 'save the Council' choice pits those specific Council members ahead of the entire galaxy's safety. You know that the Ascension is offline and dead in the water, you're told that casualties would be high sending the fleet (our only hope against Sovereign) to try and save it, and you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment... causing the death of the entire galaxy (INCLUDING THE COUNCIL YOU WANT TO GAMBLE ON TRYING TO SAVE)....

With what's at stake, saying that removing Sovereign first is 'human selfishness' sounds really stupid to me.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:28 .

[LiquidLogic2020]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The 'save the Council' choice pits those specific Council members ahead of the entire galaxy's safety. You know that the Ascension is offline and dead in the water, you're told that casualties would be high sending the fleet (our only hope against Sovereign) to try and save it, and you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment... causing the death of the entire galaxy (INCLUDING THE COUNCIL YOU WANT TO GAMBLE ON TRYING TO SAVE)....

With what's at stake, saying that removing Sovereign first is 'human selfishness' sounds really stupid to me.

But you know your going to save the citidel, it's a game after all so the choice was realy sacrifce human lives for the respect of the galaxy or watch them die to be seen as a selfish self centered race. Thats just the way I saw it anyway im sure we all had different reasons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

:blink::pinched:

My brain hurts......


Meta-gaming logic again???????

[Barquiel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The 'save the Council' choice pits those specific Council members ahead of the entire galaxy's safety. You know that the Ascension is offline and dead in the water, you're told that casualties would be high sending the fleet (our only hope against Sovereign) to try and save it, and you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment... causing the death of the entire galaxy (INCLUDING THE COUNCIL YOU WANT TO GAMBLE ON TRYING TO SAVE)....

With what's at stake, saying that removing Sovereign first is 'human selfishness' sounds really stupid to me.

You knew that Sovereign resurrects Saren?


I'm impressed!

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

You knew that Sovereign resurrects Saren?


I'm impressed!

... where does he say that?

[Barquiel]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment

Which has nothing to do with Robo-Saren and it's said multiple times ingame that Sovereign is trying to regain control of the station even before Robo-Saren?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:49 .

[RAF1940]

Mesina2 wrote...

I think to get perfect ending you need to combine Paragon and Renegade choices.

"Perfect ending"? I certainly hope ME3 doesn't have a "perfect ending".

[nhsk]

RAF1940 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I think to get perfect ending you need to combine Paragon and Renegade choices.

"Perfect ending"? I certainly hope ME3 doesn't have a "perfect ending".

Better than total fudge up then.

[Barquiel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment

Which has nothing to do with Robo-Saren and it's said multiple times ingame that Sovereign is trying to regain control of the station even before Robo-Saren?

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay (...and the inside man is dead). Why do you think they used the conduit?

[RAF1940]

nhsk wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I think to get perfect ending you need to combine Paragon and Renegade choices.

"Perfect ending"? I certainly hope ME3 doesn't have a "perfect ending".

Better than total fudge up then.

I just hope there isn't one ideal ending that everyone will metagame to try and get.

[nhsk]

I just want a suicide mission where there will die some people no matter what you do, but I guess that is the same to some people.

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay (...and the inside man is dead). Why do you think they used the conduit?

He doesn't need an inside man, unless you think he's sitting outside doing nothing. He needs an inside man to close the station's arms after the Keepers refuse to respond, though he doesn't need an inside man to summon the Reapers. You apply Vigil's data file after Saren is dead, otherwise you're implying Vigil's data file served no purpose at delaying the Reapers because Saren was dead.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Barquiel wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment

Which has nothing to do with Robo-Saren and it's said multiple times ingame that Sovereign is trying to regain control of the station even before Robo-Saren?

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay (...and the inside man is dead). Why do you think they used the conduit?

If Sovy can link-up with Citadel computers...not necessarily.

[Barquiel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay (...and the inside man is dead). Why do you think they used the conduit?

He doesn't need an inside man, unless you think he's sitting outside doing nothing. He needs an inside man to close the station's arms after the Keepers refuse to respond, though he doesn't need an inside man to summon the Reapers. You apply Vigil's data file after Saren is dead, otherwise you're implying Vigil's data file served no purpose at delaying the Reapers because Saren was dead.

Why do you think Sovereign resurrects Saren if he has already done his job?

Modifié par Barquiel, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:04 .

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

Why do you think Sovereign resurrects Saren if he has already done his job?

Because the game needed a last boss. Honestly, that's the case. He doesn't need Saren to hack the station, otherwise Vigil's data file would serve no purpose (as all it does is hand the station to you temporarily while Sovereign is trying to regain control, as mentioned by people ingame).

Keepers don't summon the Reapers, the Reaper Vanguard does. Keepers didn't work, so Saren took their place.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:16 .

[SandTrout]

Barquiel wrote...

Why do you think Sovereign resurrects Saren if he has already done his job?

Shepard could still take steps to override or hinder Sovereign's control of the citadel as long as he has access to the central command console. There is also the posibility of sabotaging the citadel to disable its Mass Relay capablities.

Resurecting Saren was more about removing Shepard than activating the relay.

[Medhia Nox]

I too hope that for a "perfect" ending - a mix of major paragon/renegade choices would be necessary.

However - by "perfect" I mean easiest - where everyone lives.

Because there's no choices that are ever going to end with - "you lose".

And this mythical "Reaper's Win" ending - that's going to solely depend on choices made in ME 3 - so players can save and replay.

[Yezdigerd]

SandTrout wrote... While factually accurate, it does not represent how the situation was
presented to the player at the time. We were esentially told that we could recomend saving the DA and the council at the cost of human vessels that may be required to defeat Sovereign, with no clear knowlege as to how many ships would be lost, or the crew size of the DA.

Then you didn't pay that much attention. The DA's size and power were even adressed in actual cutscenes ingame. If it can take tourist groups of 500 people the crew should be sizable.

Ieldra2 wrote...Saving the Council, as presented by thegame, is a gamble with galactic extinction.

Quite the contrary. It amazes me how anyone can argue that not aiding the citadel forces and stabbing the
council in the back somehow increases the chance of stopping a reaper invasion.The Turian fleet, the military
peacekeeping superpower of the galaxy is 5 times the size of the alliance navy.The Salarian and Asari supposedly have 3 times the capital ship of the humans. And the DA has has almost as much firepower as the rest of of the asari fleet combined, (repeat, the one who was 3 times the size of the alliance fleet total).Sovy and his geth buddies kicks the crap out of them, yet somehow renegades have come to the conclusion that the human minnows can take Sovereign out on their own.. without support.

It's truly baffling. it didn't even occur to me that it was anything but the standard renegade douchebaggery at the time.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:14 .

[Dave of Canada]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Sovy and his geth buddies kicks the crap out of them, yet somehow renegades have come to the conclusion that the human minnows can take Sovereign out on their own.. without support.

The Citadel fleet (which wasn't the entire fleet, as quite a lot were positioned at closed off Mass Relays.) were devastated by Sovereign and his Geth. Humanity is going in to deal only with Sovereign. The Council fleet is too busy defending the Destiny Ascension or fighting the Geth to be of any use at all, so you're losing resources to fight Sovereign with if you fight to defend the Destiny Ascension (briefly).

 It amazes me how anyone can argue that not aiding the citadel forces and stabbing the
council in the back somehow increases the chance of stopping a reaper invasion.

How is it "stabbing the council in the back" to abandon them to save the galaxy? They've been telling me all game to do the hard decisions. Even the Turian Councilor said people must be sacrificed for the greater good.

The Turian fleet, the military
peacekeeping superpower of the galaxy is 5 times the size of the alliance navy.The Salarian and Asari supposedly have 3 times the capital ship of the humans.

Which weren't available at the time, as they weren't there.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:21 .

[DJRackham]

LordAnguis wrote...
... To the OP: Actually, I think the keeping the Box is the Renegade speech option with Kasumi. Neutral and Paragon (Middle and Top choices) are basically the same thing: it's what Keiji wanted, so destroy it. The bottom is keep it, if she feels she can keep it safe. ...

Actually, you are only partially correct.  The neutral (middle) option is "It's what Keiji would have wanted" as you stated. But the Paragon (top) option is to keep it, and the Renegade (or bottom) option is to destroy it.

Modifié par DJRackham, 22 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .