134 réponses à ce sujet

[Magicman10893]

I think the only Paragon decision that would bite you in the ass is telling Kasumi to keep the greybox. Like Keji said, that information could implicate the Alliance in something, and is best to be destroyed. Perhaps the greybox could get captured and the information could be revealed and making the rest of the races hate the Alliance. Now, I doubt in the middle of fighting the Reapers that the other races would take the time to go to war with the Alliance, but it might make gaining their trust to fight against the Reapers harder.

[Asari_Party]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Citadel fleet is dealing with the Geth, they're being swarmed and  the Destiny Ascension's capabilities to serve any purpose in combat is offline (as said by their announcement when they contact you).

Their main drive is offline, that's all.

maneuvering thrusters -> They can turn around slowly and bring their main gun to bear (the firepower of the DA compensates your losses).

[Dave of Canada]

Roxy12 wrote...

Their main drive is offline, that's all.

maneuvering thrusters -> They can turn around slowly and bring their main gun to bear (the firepower of the DA compensates your losses).

Except the kinect barriers are going down and they're surrounded by the Geth fleet pretty much getting focused down (which you overhear in the distress call), the Alliance arrives to (maybe) save them shortly afterward (they aren't passed the Relay yet).

Do you expect the Destiny Ascension to slowly move away to Sovereign when it's defenses are down and it's taking complete damage while the Geth fleet are still there (with the Council fleet scrambling to protect the Council)?

It's capabilities of being the Dreadnaught it's supposed to be were immediately shot when they took the Council onboard (thereby making it so they can't throw themselves into combat), it was shot further when they lost their defenses and were still being attacked.

[Yezdigerd]

Dave of Canada wrote...
The Citadel fleet (which wasn't the entire fleet, as quite a lot were positioned at closed off Mass Relays.) were devastated by Sovereign and his Geth.

and the alliance 5th fleet isn't the entire human navy either.  The citadel is the seat of goverment, administration and the heart of the mass relay network, I see no reason to assume it would have anything but the heaviest military presence in council space.

Humanity is going in to deal only with Sovereign. The Council fleet is too busy defending the Destiny Ascension or fighting the Geth to be of any use at all, so you're losing resources to fight Sovereign with if you fight to defend the Destiny Ascension (briefly).

and this is the second assumption that I cannot comprehend. Why do renegades believe the geth forces wouldn't break of and engage the alliance forces if Sovereign required it? Their purpose is to protect sovereign, not to engage the council fleet in a meaningless sideshow. Its a god to them, they are fearless, their losses are irrelevant.

How is it "stabbing the council in the back" to abandon them to save the
galaxy? They've been telling me all game to do the hard decisions. Even
the Turian Councilor said people must be sacrificed for the greater
good.

Because nothing is served by letting the geth pound the council fleet and destroy the only ship that by all account is able to damage Sovereign with it's defences intact. Since I cannot see how engaging them can be avoided, its just common sense to act in concert with the council defences, and hope that you and your allies have enough time to take care of sovereign too.

The Turian fleet, the military peacekeeping superpower of the galaxy is 5 times the size of the alliance navy.The Salarian and Asari supposedly have 3 times the capital ship of the humans.

Which weren't available at the time, as they weren't there.

Clearly you need to play that part again, The presence of the Turian ships and commanders are very prominent. Salarian and Asari vessels are also present.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 22 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .

[Dave of Canada]

Yezdigerd wrote...

and the alliance 5th fleet isn't the entire human navy either.  The citadel is the seat of goverment, administration and the heart of the mass relay network, I see no reason to assume it would have anything but the heaviest military presence in council space.

Because the Council spread out all their forces to different Mass Relays expecting Saren and the Geth to show up from there? The Council states this after Udina / Council "betray" you.

and this is the second assumption that I cannot comprehend. Why do renegades believe the geth forces wouldn't break of and engage the alliance forces if Sovereign required it? Their purpose is to protect sovereign, not to engage the council fleet in a meaningless sideshow. Its a god to them, they are fearless, their losses are irrelevant.

Same reason they don't attack people who save the Council.

Because nothing is served by letting the geth pound the council fleet and destroy the only ship that by all account is able to damage Sovereign with it's defences intact.

How does your Shepard know it's the only ship that can damage Sovereign?

Since I cannot see how engaging them can be avoided

Avoid the Council fleet which is dealing with them, they are all hanging out in one spot.

its just common sense to act in concert with the council defences, and hope that you and your allies have enough time to take care of sovereign too.

"It's best to defend the Council, let's just hope I didn't destroy the galaxy by doing so."

Clearly you need to play that part again, The presence of the Turian ships and commanders are very prominent. Salarian and Asari vessels are also present.

There's a few, they weren't all there. You need to play the part where the Council says they spread out their fleet to stop Saren, not expecting the Conduit or Sovereign capable of manipulating every Mass Relay.

[rt604]

I don't look at Renegade and Paragon as good and bad necessarily, but I believe that paragon finds the best solution for everyone involved, as opposed to the Renegade where the character finds a solution that favors one party over the rest.

[GamerJ]

Magicman10893 wrote...

I think the only Paragon decision that would bite you in the ass is telling Kasumi to keep the greybox. Like Keji said, that information could implicate the Alliance in something, and is best to be destroyed. Perhaps the greybox could get captured and the information could be revealed and making the rest of the races hate the Alliance. Now, I doubt in the middle of fighting the Reapers that the other races would take the time to go to war with the Alliance, but it might make gaining their trust to fight against the Reapers harder.

maby if kasumi dies and u have kept the graybox then i guess it can come into the wrong hands, not as long she lives i guess (can be wrong maby she got killed over it) but a wierd thing in the graybox is u also see a reaper picture in it, maby a hint or something on how to defeat them but the only thing to be sure the descisions were right and wrong is to wait till me3 unfortunaly it isnt 2012 yet =-(

[Yezdigerd]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because the Council spread out all their forces to different Mass Relays expecting Saren and the Geth to show up from there? The Council states this after Udina / Council "betray" you.

The council have assigned forces to guard the mass relay yes, but nothing about "all" (which would redicoulous ofc.) where the ships have been taken from is anyone's guess. but sure its possible to assume the citadel defence it lighter then usual, or not, It is still the brain and communication center of the empire and should be the most heavily defended point in citadel space, that the DA is stationed there makes sense.

Same reason they don't attack people who save the Council.

So you mean that the Geth just let the human fleet destroy them with impunity? and while yes the geth fleet aren't coming to Sovereign's aid if you abandon the citadel defence forces, I can't for the life of me understand why or why anyone would assume a black hole would swallow them up.
Besides it's quite pointless to argue hindsight since we then know the paragon one was the correct one.

Because nothing is served by letting the geth pound the council fleet and destroy the only ship that by all account is able to damage Sovereign with it's defences intact.

How does your Shepard know it's the only ship that can damage Sovereign?

He doesn't, but the DA is the mother of all superdreadnoughts, who are built to destroy capital ships with many times the firepower of the entire alliance fleet keeping it operational is the best shot at Sovereign . (If Arrival is to be believed the DA inflict significant damage even in a renegade playthrough, although not relevant for the decision ofc.)

Avoid the Council fleet which is dealing with them, they are all hanging out in one spot.

And what is your reason for believing that the Geth forces canno't move 20 kilometers? You think the alliance fleet can approach Sovereign undetected? and even if they could, how long would it take for the Geths to be in firing range? unless they already are.

"It's best to defend the Council, let's just hope I didn't destroy the galaxy by doing so."

Well since there is no reason to assume the alliance fleet can inflict any significant damage on Sovereign anyway, what would you do?

There's a few, they weren't all there. You need to play the part where the Council says they spread out their fleet to stop Saren, not expecting the Conduit or Sovereign capable of manipulating every Mass Relay.

And I never said they were all there ofc. It's simply that in order for you to assume the human fleet have more firepower then the citadel defence forces, the human fleet needs be extremely dispropotionate in numbers, which beggars belief at the citadel strongpoint, considering how puny the human alliance is in comparable military strength.
Once again the Destiny's Ascension alone is said to have almost equal firepower of the rest of the asari fleet which is 3 times the size of the alliance fleet in total.
So how many ships are in the 5th fleet? maybe there are like 4 other fleets then? so 5th fleet would have the equivalant of 1/7 of the the DA firepower? not to mention the the Turian and Salarian Dreadnoughts?

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

you know that Sovereign could retake the station at any moment

Which has nothing to do with Robo-Saren and it's said multiple times ingame that Sovereign is trying to regain control of the station even before Robo-Saren?

Sovereign needs an inside man to activate the relay (...and the inside man is dead). Why do you think they used the conduit?

No that's not the case, Saren already did his part before Shepard even arrived.  That's why one of your squadmates are yelling at you to stop Sovereign "before he regains control of the station!"

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Well since there is no reason to assume the alliance fleet can inflict any significant damage on Sovereign anyway, what would you do?

Since Sovereign is still poised to take control at any time... the other alternative (if Sovereign could not be stopped quickly enough) would be to destroy the Citadel (or atleast the control center so that Sovereign cannot access it).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 juillet 2011 - 02:28 .

[Nixter Shepard]

Mesina2 wrote...

I think to get perfect ending you need to combine Paragon and Renegade choices.

Agreed

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barquiel wrote...

Why do you think Sovereign resurrects Saren if he has already done his job?

Because Sovereign saw the effects of Shepard using Vigil's data file and has no idea what else Shepard can do.  Shepard became a threat and challenged his claim to the station.  Shepard had to be dealt with.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 23 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[Lumikki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Most people who stop to think about the decisions before they select an option don't make Renegade decisions for the lulz or because they like playing sociopathic jerks, but because they think Shepard cannot affort the risk of making a Paragon decision in this particular instance. We should be correct sometimes.

"We" don't stop thinking, where to you get these idiotic assumptions. "We" just have different way to look situations than YOU DO. Why to hell you think the choises is there in first place.

All you do is, just say that renegade decission should sometimes pay off. I agree, but issue is that PLAEYRS here CAN'T handle it, because they can't handle anything negative when there is positive possible too. We have seen it many times here in this forum, how people complain because they did not get the most positive outcome.

So, what you do here, is asking negative outcome for paragon path players. Someting what most of them don't like.

Paragon leads in good more often, because the way paragon path is by it's own nature. Renegade lead in less good situation, even if end result can be good, because the path is filled with ruthless decissions. It's nature of renegade paths.

Hole choises are just choises how to deal situation, there is no right or wrong choise, just different attitude. It's allows us players define our characters attitute.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 juillet 2011 - 12:09 .

[Lumikki]

Nixter Shepard wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

I think to get perfect ending you need to combine Paragon and Renegade choices.

Agreed

Perfect ending is idiotic, because this would FORCE every metagamer play both paragon and renegade. Like there is right and wrong choises. Paragon / renegade has never been right or wrong choises. It has been allways players ability define characters attitude how to deal situations.

I consider better design, that there is easyer and harder path in good endings. Meaning some choises helps and some make it harder, but it doesn't remove good ending, unless you do too many harder choises, what cause bad ending. Point been there is no perfect path, just easyer and harder paths.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 juillet 2011 - 04:28 .

[Savber100]

The Paragade will be winner .

Hurray for the hidden middle ground in ME3! ;p

[Asari_Party]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except the kinect barriers are going down and they're surrounded by the Geth fleet pretty much getting focused down (which you overhear in the distress call), the Alliance arrives to (maybe) save them shortly afterward (they aren't passed the Relay yet).

Do you expect the Destiny Ascension to slowly move away to Sovereign when it's defenses are down and it's taking complete damage while the Geth fleet are still there (with the Council fleet scrambling to protect the Council)?

It's capabilities of being the Dreadnaught it's supposed to be were immediately shot when they took the Council onboard (thereby making it so they can't throw themselves into combat), it was shot further when they lost their defenses and were still being attacked.

The kinetic barriers are down to 40%, not offline.

They are unable to leave the battle or outrun the geth without their main drive. Yes, I expect that they'll do something useful.


- No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought.
...and you sacrifice your only dreadnought? That doesn't make sense to me.
- the timeframe is the same
- The remnants of the Citadel fleet couldn't even protect the Ascension; there's no way they'd be able to stop the geth from backing up Sovereign.
- you lose no firepower

Modifié par Roxy12, 23 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yezdigerd wrote...
and this is the second assumption that I cannot comprehend. Why do renegades believe the geth forces wouldn't break of and engage the alliance forces if Sovereign required it? Their purpose is to protect sovereign, not to engage the council fleet in a meaningless sideshow. Its a god to them, they are fearless, their losses are irrelevant.

Maybe they would, but this is irrelevant.
You need as much firepower in as shorter time-span as possible, focused on Sovy. Losses are irrelevant.
In the geth attakc the human fleet from behind, it is irrelevant. Soverign MUST fall. Not ot mention that if hte geth turn ot face the humans, then the council fleet cna attack them from behind.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yezdigerd wrote...
And I never said they were all there ofc. It's simply that in order for you to assume the human fleet have more firepower then the citadel defence forces, the human fleet needs be extremely dispropotionate in numbers, which beggars belief at the citadel strongpoint, considering how puny the human alliance is in comparable military strength.
Once again the Destiny's Ascension alone is said to have almost equal firepower of the rest of the asari fleet which is 3 times the size of the alliance fleet in total.
So how many ships are in the 5th fleet? maybe there are like 4 other fleets then? so 5th fleet would have the equivalant of 1/7 of the the DA firepower? not to mention the the Turian and Salarian Dreadnoughts?

The ship seen at the citadel are some turian cruisers, the DA and a what I think are salarian cruisers...hard to tell.
Note that the Citadel doesn't have to have the biggest military presence. That's bogus. Does Washington DC have the biggest military presence? Nope.
Military forces are spread based on where you think they should be.
No one belived Saren could reach hte Citadel, so there was no need to keep a large force there.

And b.t.w - the DA was heavily damaged..otherwise they wouldn't calling for aid. To assume it would take care of sovereign is wrong. Even if you save hte DA, do you ever see it attacking the Sovereign? nope, it's nowhere to be seen. 
Let's not forget-  Sovereign is inside the Citadel, Da is outside, with engines donw. Hence, USELSSS in the fight against Sovy.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Most people who stop to think about the decisions before they select an option don't make Renegade decisions for the lulz or because they like playing sociopathic jerks, but because they think Shepard cannot affort the risk of making a Paragon decision in this particular instance. We should be correct sometimes.

"We" don't stop thinking, where to you get these idiotic assumptions. "We" just have different way to look situations than YOU DO. Why to hell you think the choises is there in first place.

All you do is, just say that renegade decission should sometimes pay off. I agree, but issue is that PLAERS here CAN'T handle it, because they can't handle anything negative when there is positive possible too. We have seen it many times here in this forum, how people complain because they did not get the most positive outcome.

So, what you do here, is asking negative outcome for paragon path players. Someting what most of them don't like.

Paragon leads in good more often, because the way paragon path is by it's own nature. Renegade lead in less good situation, even if end result can be good, because the path is filled with ruthless decissions. It's nature of renegade paths.

Hole choises are just choises how to deal situation, there is no right or wrong choise, just different attitude. It's allows us players define our characters attitute.

Roleplying goes down the drain when such simplistic system is used, and consequences are so artificial.

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Roleplying goes down the drain when such simplistic system is used, and consequences are so artificial.

So true, but where you see role-players?

[turian councilor Knockout]

Doesn't matter, i think whether it is renegade or paragon there will be choices in each that will have negative or positive effects on game so i don't read too much in it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Roleplying goes down the drain when such simplistic system is used, and consequences are so artificial.

So true, but where you see role-players?

In a game where there's only choices and consequences. No shoehornign or atificial division into some paragon/renegande BS.

[Blooddrunk1004]

Paragade is always how i play. People seriously need to realize that not every choice is good and evil.
Most of "big choices" are grey like The Witcher.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Paragade is always how i play. People seriously need to realize that not every choice is good and evil.
Most of "big choices" are grey like The Witcher.

It's harder to paly that way when the game clearly marks one path as better or awards extreemes (maxing out paragon or renegade gives you bonuses and extra options)

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Roleplying goes down the drain when such simplistic system is used, and consequences are so artificial.

So true, but where you see role-players?

In a game where there's only choices and consequences. No shoehornign or atificial division into some paragon/renegande BS.

Yeah, but that paragon/renegade BS only affects metagamers, not role-players. *wink*

Real role-players have 3 choise and every choise is equal valid. Point been, if you let the BS affect you decission making, that's your own issue.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 juillet 2011 - 01:00 .