I have just completed Liara the DLC for the first time and I
must say that I am totally puzzled. Feels like playing a Final Fantasy game. She
doesn’t make any sense, any…
-Why would she go through so much trouble and risk her life
to rescue Shepard’s body from the Shadow B. just to turn it to the Cerberus. Cerberus
(!), of all things. Why not to Blue Suns or Eclipse for that matter?…
-Why she loses all interest (love) with Shepard after that,
never checks Shepard’s condition with Cerberus as if there was Nothing between
them before, as if she didn’t risk her life, and concentrates on giving her
life for Feron?? AND, when Shepard comes back, she blames him/her for “such a
long time being away”, can hardly find time for him/her, says that the Galaxy
doesn’t work this way, etc. That now the aim of her life is to free Feron and
kill the Shadow B. That is hell of an aim, considering that Shepard is finally back
alive! This doesn’t make any sense, unless she simply sold Shepard’s body to
Cerberus for money.
-At the end she casts aside both Shepard and Feron, one is
sent away to defend the Galaxy, while the other is send away to repair the
Shadow B. ship?
-TIM says that she works for the Shadow B. Why would TIM lie
to Shepard one minute after they met? He wouldn’t spend 4 billion for the
Lazarus project and 2 billion to rebuild Normandy
just to start useless lies, which are trivial to check. Looking at the way how she
is set, she indeed might work for the Shadow Broker. How else would she become
most influential info trader on Illium for less than 2 years? However, she
wants to kill him and he wants to kill her. Loose ends…
Is it possible to make sense out of her behaviour?
Can it be:
She is a heartless calculating b##ch, who simply sold Shepard’s
body to TIM to become his agent. She never loved Shepard and forgets about him/her
after selling to TIM. TIM financed her career and now she has an aim to kill
the Shadow B. and take his place. TIM may put thin aim on. Feron is just an
excuse. She doesn’t care about him either. Does this explain all the lies and
behaviour?
Liara DLC does not make any sense?
Débuté par
glitter_guld
, juil. 21 2011 04:27
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:29
Corpsetorn
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Clearly you haven't read Redemption.
Because the only other option was the Collectors? Ever hear the phrase "lesser of two evils?"
Cerberus, while quastionable in intent and history, is human-centric. After saving the Citadel and defeating both Soverign and Saren Shepard has become the human ideal in the eyes of humanity, and if paragon, in the eyes of the other citadel races. It's not much of a leap to assume their intentions with Shepard's body would be less ignoble than whatever the Collectors were planning to do with it. Miranda told Liara that Cerberus was going to try to bring Shepard back, which is far more than the Blue suns or the Eclipse could achieve, let alone the fact that they'd have no reason to since Shepard would only be a pain in their sides, and the Blue suns were contracted by the Shadow Broker to acquire Shepard's body. Read Redemption.
She doesn't lose all interest in Shepard as a friend OR romantically if Shepard persued a relationship with her in ME1. When Shepard first arrives on Illium to greet her she kisses him/her, and later explains that she's having a hard time getting over two years of moruning when she and everyone else had finally moved on with their lives after the destruction of the SR1. When you mourn the loss of a friend or lover and finally get past the tough part, it would not be an easy revelation to find out that they are once again alive. If the mission is completed and certain dialogue choices are chosen, she takes Shepard back and even says that Shepard made it clear that she was taken when asked if there is anything between she and Feron. Once invited to the SR2, she talks at length with Shepard about their future and again, with certain dialogue choices, ends up sleeping with him/her. She didn't blame Shepard for anything, she just had a hard time accepting the fact that Shep was alive and that her efforts weren't in vain.
As for Feron, he helped Liara save Shepard's corpse and at a crucial moment, sacrificed himself to allow her to escape with the body. He was her friend and, of course, she felt like she owed him for what he did. For a long time she presumed Shepard dead, and since his/her corpse was with Cerberus, there was nothing more she could do so she concentrated her efforts on saving/avenging Feron and Shepard by getting back at the Shadow Broker. Again, read Redemption.
Saying she cast either of them aside is certainly not the right way to put it. She chose to remain as the Shadow Broker in order to assist Shepard with the most powerful information network in the galaxy. As it was said, Shep's place is on the battlefield. I'm not sure exactly what you expected here. It's not like Shepard was just going to retire and hang out with her at the base while the Reaper threat grows ever larger. She didn't "send Shepard away," it was simply how things were. Shepard is the only one that can stop the Reapers, and she chose to assist him in the best way she could. The galaxy is on the brink of war, there are no time outs. Both Shepard and Liara are doing what needs to be done for the time being.
As for Feron, she didn't cast him aside either. She became the Shadow Broker and he chose to assist her. As I said, the Reapers are coming, so I'm not sure what you thought would happen with she and Feron.
The Illusive Man spent the entire game lying to Shepard, is it really that surprising that he'd want to shove his dealings with Liara under the rug? Plus, he more than likely wanted to gain some degree of loyalty from Shepard before Shep ran into Liara and learned the truth. Until the DLC, Liara hid most of the details about her involvement in the Commander's resurrection.
I don't know what you are going on about in the last part of that paragraph, the game and graphic novel make all of this very, very clear.
If you played the game, explored all Dialogue options etc, and read Redemption, you wouldn't need to try to make sense out of it unless you weren't paying attention. If there is one thing Bioware doesn't lack for, it's attention to detail. ALL of your queries and criticisms are thoroughly explained and addressed by the game and the GN. Worst case, you go to ME Wiki and get a little summarized clarification.
Are you absolutely sure you are playing the same game? She never became a Cerberus or Shadow Broker agent, she lamented over Shepard's death and made it very clear in both the base game and the DLC how difficult the situation was for her, and she never stated ANY intention to replace the Shadow Broker, if you paid ANY attention whatsoever to what happened after the battle, you'd be fully aware that it was a split second decision in order to avoid losing his contacts, she even discusses it with Shepard.
Please, please, replay the DLC and read Redemption, because you don't seem to have processed anything that happened.
glitter_guld wrote...
-Why would she go through so much trouble and risk her life
to rescue Shepard’s body from the Shadow B. just to turn it to the Cerberus. Cerberus
(!), of all things. Why not to Blue Suns or Eclipse for that matter?…
Because the only other option was the Collectors? Ever hear the phrase "lesser of two evils?"
Cerberus, while quastionable in intent and history, is human-centric. After saving the Citadel and defeating both Soverign and Saren Shepard has become the human ideal in the eyes of humanity, and if paragon, in the eyes of the other citadel races. It's not much of a leap to assume their intentions with Shepard's body would be less ignoble than whatever the Collectors were planning to do with it. Miranda told Liara that Cerberus was going to try to bring Shepard back, which is far more than the Blue suns or the Eclipse could achieve, let alone the fact that they'd have no reason to since Shepard would only be a pain in their sides, and the Blue suns were contracted by the Shadow Broker to acquire Shepard's body. Read Redemption.
-Why she loses all interest (love) with Shepard after that,
never checks Shepard’s condition with Cerberus as if there was Nothing between
them before, as if she didn’t risk her life, and concentrates on giving her
life for Feron?? AND, when Shepard comes back, she blames him/her for “such a
long time being away”, can hardly find time for him/her, says that the Galaxy
doesn’t work this way, etc. That now the aim of her life is to free Feron and
kill the Shadow B. That is hell of an aim, considering that Shepard is finally back
alive! This doesn’t make any sense, unless she simply sold Shepard’s body to
Cerberus for money.
She doesn't lose all interest in Shepard as a friend OR romantically if Shepard persued a relationship with her in ME1. When Shepard first arrives on Illium to greet her she kisses him/her, and later explains that she's having a hard time getting over two years of moruning when she and everyone else had finally moved on with their lives after the destruction of the SR1. When you mourn the loss of a friend or lover and finally get past the tough part, it would not be an easy revelation to find out that they are once again alive. If the mission is completed and certain dialogue choices are chosen, she takes Shepard back and even says that Shepard made it clear that she was taken when asked if there is anything between she and Feron. Once invited to the SR2, she talks at length with Shepard about their future and again, with certain dialogue choices, ends up sleeping with him/her. She didn't blame Shepard for anything, she just had a hard time accepting the fact that Shep was alive and that her efforts weren't in vain.
As for Feron, he helped Liara save Shepard's corpse and at a crucial moment, sacrificed himself to allow her to escape with the body. He was her friend and, of course, she felt like she owed him for what he did. For a long time she presumed Shepard dead, and since his/her corpse was with Cerberus, there was nothing more she could do so she concentrated her efforts on saving/avenging Feron and Shepard by getting back at the Shadow Broker. Again, read Redemption.
-At the end she casts aside both Shepard and Feron, one is
sent away to defend the Galaxy, while the other is send away to repair the
Shadow B. ship?
Saying she cast either of them aside is certainly not the right way to put it. She chose to remain as the Shadow Broker in order to assist Shepard with the most powerful information network in the galaxy. As it was said, Shep's place is on the battlefield. I'm not sure exactly what you expected here. It's not like Shepard was just going to retire and hang out with her at the base while the Reaper threat grows ever larger. She didn't "send Shepard away," it was simply how things were. Shepard is the only one that can stop the Reapers, and she chose to assist him in the best way she could. The galaxy is on the brink of war, there are no time outs. Both Shepard and Liara are doing what needs to be done for the time being.
As for Feron, she didn't cast him aside either. She became the Shadow Broker and he chose to assist her. As I said, the Reapers are coming, so I'm not sure what you thought would happen with she and Feron.
-TIM says that she works for the Shadow B. Why would TIM lie
to Shepard one minute after they met? He wouldn’t spend 4 billion for the
Lazarus project and 2 billion to rebuild Normandy
just to start useless lies, which are trivial to check. Looking at the way how she
is set, she indeed might work for the Shadow Broker. How else would she become
most influential info trader on Illium for less than 2 years? However, she
wants to kill him and he wants to kill her. Loose ends…
The Illusive Man spent the entire game lying to Shepard, is it really that surprising that he'd want to shove his dealings with Liara under the rug? Plus, he more than likely wanted to gain some degree of loyalty from Shepard before Shep ran into Liara and learned the truth. Until the DLC, Liara hid most of the details about her involvement in the Commander's resurrection.
I don't know what you are going on about in the last part of that paragraph, the game and graphic novel make all of this very, very clear.
Is it possible to make sense out of her behaviour?
If you played the game, explored all Dialogue options etc, and read Redemption, you wouldn't need to try to make sense out of it unless you weren't paying attention. If there is one thing Bioware doesn't lack for, it's attention to detail. ALL of your queries and criticisms are thoroughly explained and addressed by the game and the GN. Worst case, you go to ME Wiki and get a little summarized clarification.
Can it be:
She is a heartless calculating b##ch, who simply sold Shepard’s
body to TIM to become his agent. She never loved Shepard and forgets about him/her
after selling to TIM. TIM financed her career and now she has an aim to kill
the Shadow B. and take his place. TIM may put thin aim on. Feron is just an
excuse. She doesn’t care about him either. Does this explain all the lies and
behaviour?
Are you absolutely sure you are playing the same game? She never became a Cerberus or Shadow Broker agent, she lamented over Shepard's death and made it very clear in both the base game and the DLC how difficult the situation was for her, and she never stated ANY intention to replace the Shadow Broker, if you paid ANY attention whatsoever to what happened after the battle, you'd be fully aware that it was a split second decision in order to avoid losing his contacts, she even discusses it with Shepard.
Please, please, replay the DLC and read Redemption, because you don't seem to have processed anything that happened.
#3
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:40
BentOrgy
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- 1 202 messages
glitter_guld wrote...
I have just completed Liara the DLC for the first time and I
must say that I am totally puzzled. Feels like playing a Final Fantasy game. She
doesn’t make any sense, any…
-Why would she go through so much trouble and risk her life
to rescue Shepard’s body from the Shadow B. just to turn it to the Cerberus. Cerberus
(!), of all things. Why not to Blue Suns or Eclipse for that matter?…
-Why she loses all interest (love) with Shepard after that,
never checks Shepard’s condition with Cerberus as if there was Nothing between
them before, as if she didn’t risk her life, and concentrates on giving her
life for Feron?? AND, when Shepard comes back, she blames him/her for “such a
long time being away”, can hardly find time for him/her, says that the Galaxy
doesn’t work this way, etc. That now the aim of her life is to free Feron and
kill the Shadow B. That is hell of an aim, considering that Shepard is finally back
alive! This doesn’t make any sense, unless she simply sold Shepard’s body to
Cerberus for money.
-At the end she casts aside both Shepard and Feron, one is
sent away to defend the Galaxy, while the other is send away to repair the
Shadow B. ship?
-TIM says that she works for the Shadow B. Why would TIM lie
to Shepard one minute after they met? He wouldn’t spend 4 billion for the
Lazarus project and 2 billion to rebuild Normandy
just to start useless lies, which are trivial to check. Looking at the way how she
is set, she indeed might work for the Shadow Broker. How else would she become
most influential info trader on Illium for less than 2 years? However, she
wants to kill him and he wants to kill her. Loose ends…
Is it possible to make sense out of her behaviour?
Can it be:
She is a heartless calculating b##ch, who simply sold Shepard’s
body to TIM to become his agent. She never loved Shepard and forgets about him/her
after selling to TIM. TIM financed her career and now she has an aim to kill
the Shadow B. and take his place. TIM may put thin aim on. Feron is just an
excuse. She doesn’t care about him either. Does this explain all the lies and
behaviour?
1: The whole Idea was presumably because Cerberus presented the only way to bring Shepard back. And really? The Suns? Eclipse? Why the hell would she do that? It'd defeat the purpose of collecting Shep in the first place; there'd be no point.
2: I highly doubt she was allowed anywhere near a Cerberus facility, let alone one like the Lazarus, where they bring people back from the dead. She simply needed to trust that it would be done. As for Ferron, she obviously felt guilty for him beaing basically left behind to rot, AND doing in the Shadow Broker presented a huge chance at a near infinite amount of information, resources and possibly manpower. It wasn't out of the blue really, and it required a staggering amount of time/energy/resources, which also explains why she kinda ignored Shep in the beginning. "I love you, but this could be one of the biggest chances we have at controlling one of the most powerful orginaztions in the galaxy, kissy face will have to wait." She's an adult, and has priorities, if she stopped her work then and there, just 'cause ONE person came back, then the Shadow Broker could have been lost. Could she have had a little bit more to say? Yes. But that's Bioware's poor writing, not the character's fault. And again, really? Money?
3: She's the Shadow Broker. What was she supposed to do? Invite them for tea? Cake? A fiesta on the skydeck? She has no free time anymore. She didn't cast off anyone; she made damn sure that the two people she cared about, (Shep and Feron.) were safe, that the Broker was dead, and now she can focus on shaping the galaxy from behind the scenes. Kind of a hefty job.
4: Yes he would, if he wanted to guide Shepard along the path he wanted. You think Generals tell their grunts every detail? Do you not remember the fact that he essentially set up the Collector Ship fiasco? Lies are hardly beyond him, if he thinks it will serve him. If Shepard believed Liara was with the Broker, its possible Shepard would have avoided her, or atleast not cozyed up to her again to the point where they could find a way to fight Cerberus; after all, the Broker's one of the few orginizations out there with the power to do so. TIM probably wanted to avoid that. Then again I don't remember Liara being mentioned as a Broker agent in the game, so this entry is really an exercise in out of the box thinking.
And lastly, no, you're just not thinking things through. Or through well/long enough. Almost all of what transpired in Lair made sense.
#4
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 09:51
eternalnightmare13
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glitter_guld wrote...
-Why would she go through so much trouble and risk her life
to rescue Shepard’s body from the Shadow B. just to turn it to the Cerberus. Cerberus
(!), of all things. Why not to Blue Suns or Eclipse for that matter?…
Really? Reaaaalllly?! You think she should've taken them to the Blue Suns or Eclispse? Why? Seriously, I want to know your rationale behind that idea. Seriously.
#5
Posté 21 juillet 2011 - 10:13
didymos1120
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#6
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 01:23
BentOrgy
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eternalnightmare13 wrote...
glitter_guld wrote...
-Why would she go through so much trouble and risk her life
to rescue Shepard’s body from the Shadow B. just to turn it to the Cerberus. Cerberus
(!), of all things. Why not to Blue Suns or Eclipse for that matter?…
Really? Reaaaalllly?! You think she should've taken them to the Blue Suns or Eclispse? Why? Seriously, I want to know your rationale behind that idea. Seriously.
He'she can't because there is no rationale.
And ss didy has pointed out, he/she obviously hasn't done their homework, which means.....
/Thread I think.
Modifié par BentOrgy, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:24 .
#7
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 01:34
Bogsnot1
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Made perfect sense to me, and I dont have Redemption.
My Shep wasnt cast aside. Liara came on board of the Normandy for sexy times.
As BentOrgy said:
/thread
My Shep wasnt cast aside. Liara came on board of the Normandy for sexy times.
As BentOrgy said:
/thread
#8
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 01:57
didymos1120
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Bogsnot1 wrote...
Made perfect sense to me, and I dont have Redemption.
No, it's not necessary. You can infer the essential facts if you pay attention to the dialogue and/or bother to use the investigate options (especially when kicking off the DLC in Liara's office and afterwards w/ Feron). But Redemption is still the setup for Lair (far more than it is for ME2 proper) and provides a lot of extra context and detail. Given how profoundly confused the OP is, I'd say in this instance it is sorely needed.
#9
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 02:13
glitter_guld
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Are you serious, guys? So, if I read Redemption and Wiki again then everything will be clear, right? This wiki reasoning, for example:
"While escaping, they run into Miranda and two Cerberus operatives, who tells them they have the same goal (looking for Shepard) and want to work with Liara. ... but Liara insists that as long as they share the common goal of saving Shepard, it should be all right. "
This makes sense??? This kindergarten style reasoning makes me laugh and makes nothing clear. I don't know about you, of course. So (especially answering to Corpsetorn), Cerberus is not perceived as pro-human in the Alliance/Citadel space. Cerberus is known to normal people (not to us, who play, and not to the resurrected Shepard, who spoke with TIM) as a Terroristic and Anti-Alien organization. Cerberus is an Enemy for humans and even more for aliens. Did you hear/read what Anderson, Kaidan, Ashley and the others say? Some of them don’t even want to deal with Shepard after that. It is propaganda maybe, but it is what it is. So, if someone from such an organization comes to me and says that they want to “save” Shepard, and I am an assari, who just risked my life to recover him/her, then “it should be all right”. Heh. A lot of sense!
BentOrgy and eternalnightmare13, the thing about Blue Suns and Eclipse was a joke, of course. They just have similarly bad reputation as the Cerberus. The joke was in that context.
Absolutely not. This thing is very clearly said in game. Liara was mumbling about that it is “her place”, that she sees it as her destiny, that she would like to do it, etc. She did not do it for Shepard at all.
If she handed Shepard’s body to a terroristic organization without even knowing what they are going to do with him after risking her life to get the said body, then it is nonsense, just as I stated.
OK, really, guys, I don’t doubt that TIM lied to her. I just don’t see any reason for him to lie. What was he trying to achieve.
And lastly, you say that the choice was between collectors or the Cerberus without being able to know what they are going to do with the body. How about neither of them? What about Liara’s own plans? Would you give a body of your loved one or a person who is extremely important for you to, say, al-Qaeda if they would promise you something… They also fight for the interests of “some” group of people.
As I said, reading wiki and redemption is not enough. Making sense is a totally different matter.
"While escaping, they run into Miranda and two Cerberus operatives, who tells them they have the same goal (looking for Shepard) and want to work with Liara. ... but Liara insists that as long as they share the common goal of saving Shepard, it should be all right. "
This makes sense??? This kindergarten style reasoning makes me laugh and makes nothing clear. I don't know about you, of course. So (especially answering to Corpsetorn), Cerberus is not perceived as pro-human in the Alliance/Citadel space. Cerberus is known to normal people (not to us, who play, and not to the resurrected Shepard, who spoke with TIM) as a Terroristic and Anti-Alien organization. Cerberus is an Enemy for humans and even more for aliens. Did you hear/read what Anderson, Kaidan, Ashley and the others say? Some of them don’t even want to deal with Shepard after that. It is propaganda maybe, but it is what it is. So, if someone from such an organization comes to me and says that they want to “save” Shepard, and I am an assari, who just risked my life to recover him/her, then “it should be all right”. Heh. A lot of sense!
BentOrgy and eternalnightmare13, the thing about Blue Suns and Eclipse was a joke, of course. They just have similarly bad reputation as the Cerberus. The joke was in that context.
Corpsetorn wrote...
… She chose to remain as the Shadow Broker in order to assist Shepard with the most powerful information network in the galaxy. …
Absolutely not. This thing is very clearly said in game. Liara was mumbling about that it is “her place”, that she sees it as her destiny, that she would like to do it, etc. She did not do it for Shepard at all.
BentOrgy wrote...
I highly doubt she was allowed anywhere near a Cerberus facility, let alone one like the Lazarus, where they bring people back from the dead.
If she handed Shepard’s body to a terroristic organization without even knowing what they are going to do with him after risking her life to get the said body, then it is nonsense, just as I stated.
OK, really, guys, I don’t doubt that TIM lied to her. I just don’t see any reason for him to lie. What was he trying to achieve.
And lastly, you say that the choice was between collectors or the Cerberus without being able to know what they are going to do with the body. How about neither of them? What about Liara’s own plans? Would you give a body of your loved one or a person who is extremely important for you to, say, al-Qaeda if they would promise you something… They also fight for the interests of “some” group of people.
As I said, reading wiki and redemption is not enough. Making sense is a totally different matter.
#10
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 02:24
glitter_guld
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didymos1120 wrote...
... Given how profoundly confused the OP is, I'd say in this instance it is sorely needed.
We are not discussing me, didymos1120. If you have a quote that clears my profound confusion, please share. Otherwise, it doesn't look very...
#11
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 02:54
BentOrgy
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I never said, nor did anything/anyone, anywhere that she didn't know who they were. Stop with the senseless conjecture and read what you yourself just posted;
".. but Liara insists that as long as they share the common goal of saving Shepard, it should be all right. "
It may or may not be naive, depending on what Drew actually wrote, but it makes it very clear that she knew Cerberus, and from her encounter with Miranda, knew what Cerberus was going to try and accomplish.
Bringing Shep back from the dead. No one else in the Galaxy offered, or even could do that, Which made them her best chance.
And we are discussing you, seeing as you were the one who was confused. And speaking of your evident confusion, we all here have tried to explain what happened, very clearly and succinctly. You're welcome.
Sheesh.
And to teh Bogsnot;
".. but Liara insists that as long as they share the common goal of saving Shepard, it should be all right. "
It may or may not be naive, depending on what Drew actually wrote, but it makes it very clear that she knew Cerberus, and from her encounter with Miranda, knew what Cerberus was going to try and accomplish.
Bringing Shep back from the dead. No one else in the Galaxy offered, or even could do that, Which made them her best chance.
And we are discussing you, seeing as you were the one who was confused. And speaking of your evident confusion, we all here have tried to explain what happened, very clearly and succinctly. You're welcome.
Sheesh.
And to teh Bogsnot;
Modifié par BentOrgy, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:58 .
