I was looking around at the tanking classes as I kinda realised that's what I really should be doing. Protecting my allies from danger by using my own body XDD.
But this triggered some confusion to me as I continued my Research I came across a handful of thinks regarding the Arcane Warrior and the numerous set-ups one could have to have the "ultimate" tank at the expense of just auto-attacking.
Apart from that pro and con, I was wondering about the other types of pro's and con's for both the Arcane Warrior and normal warrior tank. I know for a fact that the AW is a long and hard path to build up from the ground up. (Short of abusing the Duncan Glitch but in theory isn't the tank - warrior varient the same sort of thing?
I was just looking for some feedback. Depending on what people say I might decide to go through again. I made some mistakes that I'd like to rectify (plus the chance to grab some achivements =D)
The better Tank?
Débuté par
Ryuu814
, juil. 21 2011 08:16
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#2
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 12:55
TBastian
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The tank warrior is functional from the onset. With a warrior you basically just need Taunt and a working knowledge of how you can stack as much defense and armor from skills, talents, items and spells as you can, especially early game. DLC's also help. You don't need XP glitches, that only applies to NPC's like Alistair who don't start out "optimized" for tanking.
Although the Arcane Warrior is extremely tough, it is simply not a spec designed for tanking. The one big advantage warriors have over the Arcane Warrior is that they are better at managing aggro. In aggressive, damage-oriented parties this is critical - some builds are capable of such high DPS that there is simply no way an Arcane Warrior can catch up when even a true warrior in the same situation has trouble keeping aggro.
Bottomline, in most parties Arcane Warriors can serve as excellent tankers. But in certain high risk-high gain parties that aim to rampage across Ferelden once everyone gets to a certain level true warriors >> Arcane Warriors (tank-wise). In the end it all depends on your party.
Although the Arcane Warrior is extremely tough, it is simply not a spec designed for tanking. The one big advantage warriors have over the Arcane Warrior is that they are better at managing aggro. In aggressive, damage-oriented parties this is critical - some builds are capable of such high DPS that there is simply no way an Arcane Warrior can catch up when even a true warrior in the same situation has trouble keeping aggro.
Bottomline, in most parties Arcane Warriors can serve as excellent tankers. But in certain high risk-high gain parties that aim to rampage across Ferelden once everyone gets to a certain level true warriors >> Arcane Warriors (tank-wise). In the end it all depends on your party.
Modifié par TBastian, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:08 .
#3
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 12:56
Arthur Cousland
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Arcane warriors take a while to become the "ultimate tank", mainly because you don't get shimmering shield until lv 14. Until then, you can still equip armor at lv 7 once you unlock combat magic, and can use arcane shield+rock armor. Unfortunately, while you can be more durable than a warrior tank, you never get any taunt-like ability, so you'll have to work a bit harder to maintain enemy aggro.
If anyone does get in trouble, you still have your heals, glyph spells, force field and etc. While a warrior may have taunt, threaten and etc., you can more directly keep people alive than just firing off a taunt and hoping that the enemies notice.
My arcane warrior elf has a 62 armor rating and around 210 defense, along with max evasion from equipment, which makes him quite the tank. He also does pretty good damage, dual-wielding Vigilance+Voice of Velvet, so he can dish out damage while avoiding it.
While it can seem odd at first, with no weapon talents, like warriors have, I just keep reminding myself, that my dual wield rogue was pretty much auto-attacking with momentum on, so it's not that much different.
Whether you dual wield, use a staff or a weapon+shield, you still want to make magic your favored attribute. As a dual wield'er, you'll need points into dexterity to be able to equip daggers, though with the extra melee damage, you won't need to cast spells to do damage, so having base willpower is a non-issue. My arcane warrior solo'ed the archdemon on nightmare by melee'ing, so it has turned out to be an effective build. If you'd rather be more of a spellcaster, ignore dexterity alltogether and put some points into willpower, or go blood mage as your secondary spec and go magic/constitution.
Here's my arcane warrior:
http://social.biowar...na_id=238473932
If holding aggro remains an issue, then you can always bring along an warrior and just be a very durable warden, or try to be the tank until your companions start to take damage, then have the warrior taunt and take over. If you want enemies to stay glued to your warden at all times, then you'll probably have an easier time tanking as a warrior. Still, playing as an arcane warrior is fun. You could have your companions fulfill more of a support role and if they get in trouble, just cast glyph of repulsion or force field on them until you get enemy aggro back. Another solution is to simply go without companions and solo the game with your arcane warrior. They can certainly pull it off, though be weary of enemies who have access to dispel+mana clash like a certain arcane warrior in the Orzammar proving arena who always begins the fight with spell immunity.
If anyone does get in trouble, you still have your heals, glyph spells, force field and etc. While a warrior may have taunt, threaten and etc., you can more directly keep people alive than just firing off a taunt and hoping that the enemies notice.
My arcane warrior elf has a 62 armor rating and around 210 defense, along with max evasion from equipment, which makes him quite the tank. He also does pretty good damage, dual-wielding Vigilance+Voice of Velvet, so he can dish out damage while avoiding it.
While it can seem odd at first, with no weapon talents, like warriors have, I just keep reminding myself, that my dual wield rogue was pretty much auto-attacking with momentum on, so it's not that much different.
Whether you dual wield, use a staff or a weapon+shield, you still want to make magic your favored attribute. As a dual wield'er, you'll need points into dexterity to be able to equip daggers, though with the extra melee damage, you won't need to cast spells to do damage, so having base willpower is a non-issue. My arcane warrior solo'ed the archdemon on nightmare by melee'ing, so it has turned out to be an effective build. If you'd rather be more of a spellcaster, ignore dexterity alltogether and put some points into willpower, or go blood mage as your secondary spec and go magic/constitution.
Here's my arcane warrior:
http://social.biowar...na_id=238473932
If holding aggro remains an issue, then you can always bring along an warrior and just be a very durable warden, or try to be the tank until your companions start to take damage, then have the warrior taunt and take over. If you want enemies to stay glued to your warden at all times, then you'll probably have an easier time tanking as a warrior. Still, playing as an arcane warrior is fun. You could have your companions fulfill more of a support role and if they get in trouble, just cast glyph of repulsion or force field on them until you get enemy aggro back. Another solution is to simply go without companions and solo the game with your arcane warrior. They can certainly pull it off, though be weary of enemies who have access to dispel+mana clash like a certain arcane warrior in the Orzammar proving arena who always begins the fight with spell immunity.
Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:04 .
#4
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 09:17
Ryuu814
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Hm, I had a feeling grabbing the Aggro might be a tad difficult as an Arcane Warrior as lack of specific talents and skills make it harder to do so.
I might stick with the Warrior. I've always believed that the Hero of Ferelden is more epic when he doesn't have fancy spells XDD. Coincidentally this had also helped me somewhat make some decisions about my main play through on Mass Effect XD.
Thanks for the information and advice but maybe just for story and RP sake I'll keep with a basic Warrior and keep an AW play through aside for another day and character
I might stick with the Warrior. I've always believed that the Hero of Ferelden is more epic when he doesn't have fancy spells XDD. Coincidentally this had also helped me somewhat make some decisions about my main play through on Mass Effect XD.
Thanks for the information and advice but maybe just for story and RP sake I'll keep with a basic Warrior and keep an AW play through aside for another day and character
#5
Posté 22 juillet 2011 - 05:25
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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I've never saw AW as a tank class. It's a class thatis more designed to offer versatility to mages. To build an AW tank requires you to weaken the mage in general, because to be a decent tank, you have to put points into "non mage" attributes.
Leaving tanking to the warriors, if you chose that route. AW is more to help make mages less squishy and more adpatable in combat.
Leaving tanking to the warriors, if you chose that route. AW is more to help make mages less squishy and more adpatable in combat.
#6
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 12:11
TheBigMatt90
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Skadi, just no. Not at all. AW are much MUCH tougher than warriors - IE i have never seen a warrior with 70 armor 200 def and capped elemental resists. Yes it gives versatility to mages, to the point that they survive better than warriors. Why do you feel you have to put points into non mage attibutes?
Go blood mage and you cast spells with health meaning you can leave your mana pool for all the sustains.
As for aggro... Blood mage spec has lots of great aggro inducing spells, the hexes also help. Cast a fireball at the beginning of a fight or stand in the middle of a torm of the century and you will be good to go. Alternatively Spirit Healers Cleansing Aura draws a lot of aggro and is another way to run it.
My preferred gear Is Helm of Honnleath, Evons/Wades armor set, Cailen's Arms, Spellward/Lifegiver/Andruil's Blessing/Key to the City. Makes you a monster. Could also dual wield for a bit more auto damage.
Go blood mage and you cast spells with health meaning you can leave your mana pool for all the sustains.
As for aggro... Blood mage spec has lots of great aggro inducing spells, the hexes also help. Cast a fireball at the beginning of a fight or stand in the middle of a torm of the century and you will be good to go. Alternatively Spirit Healers Cleansing Aura draws a lot of aggro and is another way to run it.
My preferred gear Is Helm of Honnleath, Evons/Wades armor set, Cailen's Arms, Spellward/Lifegiver/Andruil's Blessing/Key to the City. Makes you a monster. Could also dual wield for a bit more auto damage.
#7
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 12:47
Arthur Cousland
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The arcane warrior spec was probably originally intended simply to give mages some flexibilty, but it did that and more.
A spirit healer/blood mage can be plenty durable with arcane shield, rock armor and reaper's vestments, but as an arcane warrior, a mage can be nearly invincible.
You can still pour all of your attributes into magic or magic+willpower as an arcane warrior. Adding points into dexterity will simply add to your attack score and let you equip better daggers in the off-hand for dual wielding. Some points into constitution adds a buffer in case enemies can bust through the mage's defenses, or you run into ogres who insist on spamming ram over and over, and of course arcane warrior/blood mages have a use for it.
Still, you can put everything into magic and still have an effective arcane warrior mage. An arcane warrior doesn't even have to use combat magic. You can just be a mage with armor and keep shimmering shield up while you cast spells with a staff.
A spirit healer/blood mage can be plenty durable with arcane shield, rock armor and reaper's vestments, but as an arcane warrior, a mage can be nearly invincible.
You can still pour all of your attributes into magic or magic+willpower as an arcane warrior. Adding points into dexterity will simply add to your attack score and let you equip better daggers in the off-hand for dual wielding. Some points into constitution adds a buffer in case enemies can bust through the mage's defenses, or you run into ogres who insist on spamming ram over and over, and of course arcane warrior/blood mages have a use for it.
Still, you can put everything into magic and still have an effective arcane warrior mage. An arcane warrior doesn't even have to use combat magic. You can just be a mage with armor and keep shimmering shield up while you cast spells with a staff.
#8
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 03:17
Last Darkness
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Tanking is mainly about holding threat and secondly about surviving alot of abuse. Keep this in mind.
Warriors, all 4 can make very viable Tanks(Even the Archer). Avoid Con builds and try to build more aggressivly since alot of aggro can be maintained from damage because of threaten sustain.
Rogues, can tank single targets but this is best to be avoided.
Mages
Arcane Warriors with Blood Mage or Spirit Healer can take alot of damage but you do need to work on their threat building alot. Personaly I use Staves for the 100% hit rate and play more as a heavy armored mage. (Using Evons set for best effect). Being more of a caster then using melee weapons.
Shapeshifters can also tank, notably Bear and they enjoy alot of crowd control immunities.
Often overlooked option but can be alot of fun.
Warriors, all 4 can make very viable Tanks(Even the Archer). Avoid Con builds and try to build more aggressivly since alot of aggro can be maintained from damage because of threaten sustain.
Rogues, can tank single targets but this is best to be avoided.
Mages
Arcane Warriors with Blood Mage or Spirit Healer can take alot of damage but you do need to work on their threat building alot. Personaly I use Staves for the 100% hit rate and play more as a heavy armored mage. (Using Evons set for best effect). Being more of a caster then using melee weapons.
Shapeshifters can also tank, notably Bear and they enjoy alot of crowd control immunities.
Often overlooked option but can be alot of fun.
#9
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 07:23
Ryuu814
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yeah had a look around. Heading with a Warrior Tank. Nothing beats the feeling of not being special in any way magic wise and being just as awesome XD
#10
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 10:40
Last Darkness
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Ryuu814 wrote...
yeah had a look around. Heading with a Warrior Tank. Nothing beats the feeling of not being special in any way magic wise and being just as awesome XD
All Str Two-Handers
Str Focused Weapon+Shield
and Dex Duel-Wield Daggers
Are the better Warrior Tank setups.
Dex Focused Archers in Heavy Armor work good too.
#11
Posté 23 juillet 2011 - 10:58
TheBigMatt90
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Just as a disclaimer I would like to say that I wasn't saying mages are better (my fav is the dual dagger dex monster)
, just that it is a viable build, and not just to make them a bit more durable.
, just that it is a viable build, and not just to make them a bit more durable.
#12
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 09:00
Last Darkness
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TheBigMatt90 wrote...
Just as a disclaimer I would like to say that I wasn't saying mages are better (my fav is the dual dagger dex monster)
, just that it is a viable build, and not just to make them a bit more durable.
Proper Mages (Arcane Warrior and Shapeshifter) can take the Punishment just fine or even better then a traditional warrior. They just have problems pulling and keeping threat. Which unfortunetly is the first priority to being a Tank.
#13
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 09:22
Ryuu814
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Last Darkness wrote...
Ryuu814 wrote...
yeah had a look around. Heading with a Warrior Tank. Nothing beats the feeling of not being special in any way magic wise and being just as awesome XD
All Str Two-Handers
Str Focused Weapon+Shield
and Dex Duel-Wield Daggers
Are the better Warrior Tank setups.
Dex Focused Archers in Heavy Armor work good too.
Thanks XD
My Warden (Flynn) is doing a great job in terms of tanking. Could do with some massive armour though and picked up the Warden Commander Set from the. It'll proabably be useful for when I can use my Blood Dragon set, after that I'll just have to do my research and have a look around. I need to grab the Juggernaught set for fighting things like mages and what-not though XD and Wade's platemail so I can fight Flemeth with a decent amount of fire resistance.
#14
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 12:36
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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TheBigMatt90 wrote...
Skadi, just no. Not at all. AW are much MUCH tougher than warriors - IE i have never seen a warrior with 70 armor 200 def and capped elemental resists. Yes it gives versatility to mages, to the point that they survive better than warriors. Why do you feel you have to put points into non mage attibutes?
Go blood mage and you cast spells with health meaning you can leave your mana pool for all the sustains.
As for aggro... Blood mage spec has lots of great aggro inducing spells, the hexes also help. Cast a fireball at the beginning of a fight or stand in the middle of a torm of the century and you will be good to go. Alternatively Spirit Healers Cleansing Aura draws a lot of aggro and is another way to run it.
My preferred gear Is Helm of Honnleath, Evons/Wades armor set, Cailen's Arms, Spellward/Lifegiver/Andruil's Blessing/Key to the City. Makes you a monster. Could also dual wield for a bit more auto damage.
It depends on your build, but yes, you do have to put points into things like dex and con regardless. The AW abilities drain mana like crazy when used for any length of time, and once the magic wears off, you're still left with a squishy mage. I have never found an AW to be any better at surviving than actually full blown warrior tanks like Alistair and Shale. And of course, all bets are off when you encounter templars, or any enemy with magic dispell abilities.
I find AW is far better as a DPS, as it allows the mage mroe options and better survivability. But I've never found it to be a very efficient class to use primarily as a tank.
#15
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 03:07
Ryuu814
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More research entails that the AW is actually an awesome tank with the right set-up
Their's a series of 4 videos on Youtube, each displays the hardest fights on nightmare as a solo AW. It's pretty awesome stuff.
Still sticking with my warrior though, debating is I want to use Maric's Blade and Calin's Shield combo for the set bonus or just stick with my Starfang
Their's a series of 4 videos on Youtube, each displays the hardest fights on nightmare as a solo AW. It's pretty awesome stuff.
Still sticking with my warrior though, debating is I want to use Maric's Blade and Calin's Shield combo for the set bonus or just stick with my Starfang
#16
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 09:53
TheBigMatt90
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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I have never found an AW to be any better at surviving than actually full blown warrior tanks like Alistair and Shale.
Then i'm sorry, but you are doing it wrong
#17
Posté 24 juillet 2011 - 11:18
TBastian
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You want the cold hard truth? An AW is tough BEYOND what is needed in the game. This is the reason why it is not much better than true tanks like Alistair and Shale with mage support - all that extra bonuses you are getting from Shimmering Shield? Wasted, especially once Awakenings starts (the difficulty scaling for Awakenings is horrible). In any case the true king in DA:O is damage, since damage determines just how long your enemies actually stay alive in the first place.
This is why the strongest AW's will always be the versatile ones. An AW that buffs/debuffs/nukes/disables and heals while doing a little bit of tanking on the side and who avoids auto-attacking unless necessary is easily one of the strongest characters in the game. Think about this the next time your AW is chasing around monsters trying to act like a true tanker - you're wasting your AW's full potential.
And it's in fact the reverse of your statement which is true - if your warrior, rogue or even your non-AW mage is not surviving as well as an AW in a party setting - this is considering Heals, Group Heals, Force Fields, Glyphs, good aggro management, high DPS from damage characters, etc - then it's actually your warrior/mage/rogue who is underperforming.
This is why the strongest AW's will always be the versatile ones. An AW that buffs/debuffs/nukes/disables and heals while doing a little bit of tanking on the side and who avoids auto-attacking unless necessary is easily one of the strongest characters in the game. Think about this the next time your AW is chasing around monsters trying to act like a true tanker - you're wasting your AW's full potential.
And it's in fact the reverse of your statement which is true - if your warrior, rogue or even your non-AW mage is not surviving as well as an AW in a party setting - this is considering Heals, Group Heals, Force Fields, Glyphs, good aggro management, high DPS from damage characters, etc - then it's actually your warrior/mage/rogue who is underperforming.
Modifié par TBastian, 24 juillet 2011 - 11:26 .
#18
Posté 25 juillet 2011 - 03:34
Last Darkness
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TheBigMatt90 wrote...
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I have never found an AW to be any better at surviving than actually full blown warrior tanks like Alistair and Shale.
Then i'm sorry, but you are doing it wrong
See Solo Nightmare Games.
To Skadi's defense though you can with some effort make a normal warrior tank just as tough. The problem lies in the differant damage and versatility ratios. Also keep in mind Skadi plays a AW/Spirit Healer/Battle Mage.
I think most people here are refering to the AW/Blood Mage. I personaly enjoy the Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior/Keeper myself.
Arcane Warriors though generaly have more Defense, Armor, and Resistances then any Warrior though.
More so if you manage to get them to be 100% Magic Immune as well.
Modifié par Last Darkness, 25 juillet 2011 - 03:42 .
#19
Posté 04 août 2011 - 07:54
Whitering
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A more warrior build arcane warrior is suitable for soloing the game with fairly minimal danger and a great set of tools to deal with every challenge in Nightmare or any other difficulty. It's not so great as an aggro draw for a party if you use the most traditional gear set up. You can put on Drake's and Evon's Mail to boost your hate rating but yous still won't draw as much aggro as a warrior wearing the highest str gear. The reason why you don't wear that as an AW is because the stamina drain kills your abilities to run your passives and so you are just a really crappy tank.
I have soloed the game with an AW and had a blast. By the end of Awakening she was easily my most powerful solo character, the next being one of my rogue builds. However, when I first used an AW as a meleer in a party I was quite disappointed with my aggro draw. Unless I micromanaged the heck out my party it didn't really work as a tank. As a general rule, I don't micro manage, I just set the strategies and go.
If you are on a PC I would download combat tweaks mod or some of the other rule fix mods to have the spells work more like the way they were intended, it also makes the game harder because once you get this down Nightmare is way too easy with the standard solo builds.
I have soloed the game with an AW and had a blast. By the end of Awakening she was easily my most powerful solo character, the next being one of my rogue builds. However, when I first used an AW as a meleer in a party I was quite disappointed with my aggro draw. Unless I micromanaged the heck out my party it didn't really work as a tank. As a general rule, I don't micro manage, I just set the strategies and go.
If you are on a PC I would download combat tweaks mod or some of the other rule fix mods to have the spells work more like the way they were intended, it also makes the game harder because once you get this down Nightmare is way too easy with the standard solo builds.
#20
Posté 04 août 2011 - 10:39
Dandynermite
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I'd say that Warriors are the best tanks. I have nearly 140 constitution on mine, and a lot of strength, and can solo pretty much anything on any difficulty, simply because you cannot knock me over or do anything like that, I have an immune spell, and I can weaken everybody around me til they barely scrape me. I've never tried Arcane warrior, but my warrior tank is disgusting (and boring, he just cannot die) so I'd say warriors are the best (Guardian/Champion/Reaver)
#21
Posté 04 août 2011 - 05:12
Last Darkness
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See this thread for a list of many useful mods.Whitering wrote...
If you are on a PC I would download combat tweaks mod or some of the other rule fix mods to have the spells work more like the way they were intended, it also makes the game harder because once you get this down Nightmare is way too easy with the standard solo builds.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/58/index/7438366
Dandynermite wrote...
I'd say that Warriors are the best
tanks. I have nearly 140 constitution on mine, and a lot of strength,
and can solo pretty much anything on any difficulty, simply because you
cannot knock me over or do anything like that, I have an immune spell,
and I can weaken everybody around me til they barely scrape me. I've
never tried Arcane warrior, but my warrior tank is disgusting (and
boring, he just cannot die) so I'd say warriors are the best
(Guardian/Champion/Reaver)
We are actualy discussing Origins mainly but you bring up a valid point in Awakening.
dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Carapace
With enough Constitution (about 50 points in Nightmare difficulty, which
is easily attainable with the Legion of the Dead heraldry) Carapace can
nullify just about any attack to zero damage even without Bulwark of
the Ages, making that talent somewhat unnecessary. With a high-armor
tank and three Paragon Stout Runes in combination with the Legion of the
Dead heraldry and pieces of the Sentinel Armor Set and Golem Shell Armor,
a character can have easily around 120 Constitution, enough to take no
damage from a High Dragon's mauling bite attack or, more impressively,
The Mother's massively damaging grab.
Arcane Warriors can easily become Unkillable as well. Matter of fact its pretty easy to make a Arcane Warrior who can not be hit by any attack except automatic always hit attacks and this can be done in Origins as well as Awakening.
Also have a look here.
social.bioware.com/190428/blog/13749/
Its pretty easy to make a pure DPS warrior who has 100% Spell Immune and 100% Dodge Rate.
Modifié par Last Darkness, 04 août 2011 - 05:19 .
