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Why the council denying the reapers isn't crazy


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#26
George-Kinsill

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

While you have some decent points, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of radiometric dating, but I won't blame you for it because you admitted that it's not something you are familiar with.

You state that radiometric dating only states how old the material used is. This is a misunderstanding of radiometric dating techniques. If what you said was correct, you mean that C14 dating on pretty much anything today would show that the item is billions of years old. While the atoms may be very old, Radiometric dating does not tell us how old the atoms in a material are. It tells us how long they have been in the sampled form.

This quote, taken from a Yahoo answers response sums it up well (surprise, Y!Answers is usually a ****hole).

What does it mean, then, to say that this rock is a billion years old and that rock is two billion years old? We get this information from radioactive dating. (Carbon-14 dating applies to relatively recent organic material. Other elements, such as uranium, are used for dating rocks.)

As you say, all rocks on earth are the same age in one sense, but they have solidified at vastly different times. (If you want to see new rock forming before your eyes, visit Kilauea volcano in Hawaii and watch flowing lava cool and solidify.)

Radioactive dating of a rock tells us not when the atoms came to earth, but when the rock solidified. Here's a good quotation on the subject that explains why:

"Radioactive isotopes will decay in a regular exponential way such that one-half of a given amount of parent material will decay to form daughter material in a time period called a half-life. A half-life is NOT one-half the age of the rock! When the material is liquid or gaseous, the parent and daughter isotopes can escape, but when the material solidifies, they cannot so the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes is frozen in. The parent isotope can only decay, increasing the amount of daughter isotopes. Radioactive dating gives the solidification age."


You cannot use C14 dating to measure the age of an object past roughly 50k years because by that point so much C14 has decayed that it cannot be accurately measured. However, there are multiple dating methods, and techniques such as K-Argon or Uranium dating can measure the age of an object up to many billions of years, because isotopes like K40 have a half-life of 1.3 billion years.

As for another point - recordings. Cameras are apparently standard issue on suits, evidenced by the video feed from Eden Prime at the beginning of Mass Effect 1, which came from a soldier.


This^^. Even if my mis-statement of radio carbon dating is incorrect, this should work, and even if these wouldn't work, we know for a fact that the ME universe has some way of being able to tell extreme ages. Kenson was able to show in Arrival with dust partivles that the Alpha relay was made millions of years ago, far earlier than the Protheans, and there are a number of planets with ancient civilizations that are dated to 127,000 years ago on Eingana, 300,000 years ago on Helyme, and 20 million to 40 million years ago on Etamis. I know the last age in particular is a wide range, but again, these examples show that some type of dating can be used on very ancient artifacts, and can be used to show Sov was built in a time pre-dating the Geth.

Modifié par George-Kinsill, 22 juillet 2011 - 04:22 .


#27
George-Kinsill

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SpiffySquee wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...



I did this rather quickly so the quality is a little shoddy, but it should clearly explain the points to everyone. Enjoy! ^_^


Goddamn... That YouTube Vid is long! I just stopped it at 10:11 - Good grief: You know there is an easier way of going about explaining,"Why the Council denying the existence of the Reaper Fleet isn't crazy or stupid.


Sadly, the only way to prove anything on these forums is to adress every argument one by one, or they will just say you ignored it. Thus the long video. :?


To many attempts at misplaced humor. Sure, it was funny, but it took a way from your argument. Although I guess it also depends on your goals. If it was just to prove that there was not a plot hole, which people say way to often, then yes, you succeeded. However, if you wanted to show the council are not crazy idiots, then you could have gone more in depth and not used as many random clips. Again though, it gave me a good laugh.

#28
Guest_AwesomeName_*

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I can dig it.  I sort of took it as a massive hint from the Council that this was how their relationship was going to be, when they say to Shepard, "OUR decisions affect trillions; WE cannot act without sufficient evidence. That is why we created the Spectres; if YOU think the Reapers are a real threat, then YOU must take what steps you deem necessary. We've-given-you-the-authorization-to-do-that-hint-hint" (<--hopefully that wasn't too innaccurate a paraphrase).

Modifié par AwesomeName, 22 juillet 2011 - 06:23 .


#29
SpiffySquee

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Arcian wrote...

As much as I appreciate the effort, attempting to educate idiots who failed to discover the correct answer on their own is about as constructive as dousing a burning orphanage with oil.


Tell that to Fluttershy!! She made me do it!!! :?

#30
CroGamer002

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SpiffySquee wrote...

Arcian wrote...

As much as I appreciate the effort, attempting to educate idiots who failed to discover the correct answer on their own is about as constructive as dousing a burning orphanage with oil.


Tell that to Fluttershy!! She made me do it!!! :?



Are you sure it's not King Kai?

#31
SpiffySquee

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George-Kinsill wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...



I did this rather quickly so the quality is a little shoddy, but it should clearly explain the points to everyone. Enjoy! ^_^


Goddamn... That YouTube Vid is long! I just stopped it at 10:11 - Good grief: You know there is an easier way of going about explaining,"Why the Council denying the existence of the Reaper Fleet isn't crazy or stupid.



Sadly, the only way to prove anything on these forums is to adress every argument one by one, or they will just say you ignored it. Thus the long video. :?


To many attempts at misplaced humor. Sure, it was funny, but it took a way from your argument. Although I guess it also depends on your goals. If it was just to prove that there was not a plot hole, which people say way to often, then yes, you succeeded. However, if you wanted to show the council are not crazy idiots, then you could have gone more in depth and not used as many random clips. Again though, it gave me a good laugh.


Oh dear god! I would never attempt to call them intellgent! Simply that
their idotcy is not unrealistic.  As for the humor, I did it because
it's fun to make those pictures. Makes me giggle. And besides, I have
uploaded over 1800 videos to youtube with the same type of humor... one
tends to get set in one's ways [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:27 .


#32
SpiffySquee

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

While you have some decent points, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of radiometric dating, but I won't blame you for it because you admitted that it's not something you are familiar with.

You state that radiometric dating only states how old the material used is. This is a misunderstanding of radiometric dating techniques. If what you said was correct, you mean that C14 dating on pretty much anything today would show that the item is billions of years old. While the atoms may be very old, Radiometric dating does not tell us how old the atoms in a material are. It tells us how long they have been in the sampled form.

This quote, taken from a Yahoo answers response sums it up well (surprise, Y!Answers is usually a ****hole).

What does it mean, then, to say that this rock is a billion years old and that rock is two billion years old? We get this information from radioactive dating. (Carbon-14 dating applies to relatively recent organic material. Other elements, such as uranium, are used for dating rocks.)

As you say, all rocks on earth are the same age in one sense, but they have solidified at vastly different times. (If you want to see new rock forming before your eyes, visit Kilauea volcano in Hawaii and watch flowing lava cool and solidify.)

Radioactive dating of a rock tells us not when the atoms came to earth, but when the rock solidified. Here's a good quotation on the subject that explains why:

"Radioactive isotopes will decay in a regular exponential way such that one-half of a given amount of parent material will decay to form daughter material in a time period called a half-life. A half-life is NOT one-half the age of the rock! When the material is liquid or gaseous, the parent and daughter isotopes can escape, but when the material solidifies, they cannot so the ratio of parent to daughter isotopes is frozen in. The parent isotope can only decay, increasing the amount of daughter isotopes. Radioactive dating gives the solidification age."


You cannot use C14 dating to measure the age of an object past roughly 50k years because by that point so much C14 has decayed that it cannot be accurately measured. However, there are multiple dating methods, and techniques such as K-Argon or Uranium dating can measure the age of an object up to many billions of years, because isotopes like K40 have a half-life of 1.3 billion years.

As for another point - recordings. Cameras are apparently standard issue on suits, evidenced by the video feed from Eden Prime at the beginning of Mass Effect 1, which came from a soldier.


I give you that I am not an expert on carbon dating, but if I take a sheet of metal that is 20,000 years old and use it to build a shack, all carbon dating is going to do is tell you the materials used to build the shack are 20,000 years old. It will not tell you when the shack was built. Same thing here. All it would do is tell us how old the material to build ships are, not when the ship was put together.

Also, I've been told that you would have to know where the material comes from. C14 only works because he know the conditions of earth's atmosphere and such. It would not work on say an asteroid of unknown origins. (again, I leave room for error, since this is not my expertise. I am more interested in your input than trying to prove you wrong)

As for the camera, how do you know it was a soldier with a helmet cam? We never see who recorded it or what hey used to record it. It could have been a civilian caught in a war zone with a camera phone for all we know, that he soldiers used to try and get a message out. Not the most likely scenario, I admit, but there is no evidence that it was not.

#33
Praetor Knight

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Squee, you should have used Big Foot and Unicorns to better contextualize how mythical the Reapers are. ^_^



And regarding the short segment on government, both the Articles of Confederation and Babylon 5 references,

Image IPB

#34
SpiffySquee

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Praetor Shepard wrote...

Squee, you should have used Big Foot and Unicorns to better contextualize how mythical the Reapers are. ^_^



And regarding the short segment on government, both the Articles of Confederation and Babylon 5 references,

Image IPB


Damn league of non aligned worlds! Never listen!! :D

#35
Tony_Knightcrawler

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My responses to his video, but for and against his arguments:

Shepard DID download a copy of Vigil to his omni-tool. It's in a conversation if you take Liara with you to Ilos.

Carbon dating is only useful on once-living carbon that is now dead. And that's for life-forms originating on Earth. Organisms not originating from Earth might not change carbon to a different isomer.

The Normandy should have had a flight recorder on Eden Prime AND Virmire, showing how advanced Sovereign was by being able to maneuver in that gravity. No other dreadnaught can enter the gravity well of a planet safely, but Sovereign, the LARGEST dreadnaught ever built by their knowledge, was able not only to enter/leave a planet's gravity well, but do difficult maneuvers there too. This shows that the mass effect core in Sovereign was leagues more advanced than any other.

#36
SpiffySquee

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Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

My responses to his video, but for and against his arguments:

Shepard DID download a copy of Vigil to his omni-tool. It's in a conversation if you take Liara with you to Ilos.

Carbon dating is only useful on once-living carbon that is now dead. And that's for life-forms originating on Earth. Organisms not originating from Earth might not change carbon to a different isomer.

The Normandy should have had a flight recorder on Eden Prime AND Virmire, showing how advanced Sovereign was by being able to maneuver in that gravity. No other dreadnaught can enter the gravity well of a planet safely, but Sovereign, the LARGEST dreadnaught ever built by their knowledge, was able not only to enter/leave a planet's gravity well, but do difficult maneuvers there too. This shows that the mass effect core in Sovereign was leagues more advanced than any other.


I'll have to look at Illos again, but if he did, than it was not enough to prove much :(

As for the Normandy recording Sov capabilities, the council already said they believed the geth were capable of amazing things. The recording would do nothing to prove it is not a geth ship.

#37
George-Kinsill

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SpiffySquee wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...



I did this rather quickly so the quality is a little shoddy, but it should clearly explain the points to everyone. Enjoy! ^_^


Goddamn... That YouTube Vid is long! I just stopped it at 10:11 - Good grief: You know there is an easier way of going about explaining,"Why the Council denying the existence of the Reaper Fleet isn't crazy or stupid.



Sadly, the only way to prove anything on these forums is to adress every argument one by one, or they will just say you ignored it. Thus the long video. :?


To many attempts at misplaced humor. Sure, it was funny, but it took a way from your argument. Although I guess it also depends on your goals. If it was just to prove that there was not a plot hole, which people say way to often, then yes, you succeeded. However, if you wanted to show the council are not crazy idiots, then you could have gone more in depth and not used as many random clips. Again though, it gave me a good laugh.


Oh dear god! I would never attempt to call them intellgent! Simply that
their idotcy is not unrealistic.  As for the humor, I did it because
it's fun to make those pictures. Makes me giggle. And besides, I have
uploaded over 1800 videos to youtube with the same type of humor... one
tends to get set in one's ways ../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png


Ok, your video makes perfect sense then, and again, it was a very funny video, and hopefully all those plot hole people will shut up now. Image IPB

#38
Mister Mida

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You sure got a lot of voices nagging you. I'd hate to be you.

Once again, assumptions mostly besides some good points.

Hmm... Wait, that got me thinking.

So we got one guy over here who reviews ME and focuses on the flaws while giving credit to some of the good stuff. And we got one guy over there who reviews ME (sort of) and focuses and the good stuff while admitting some stuff that's wrong.

Anti-Smudboy, is that you? I mean, you sure as hell start to sound as Smudboy.

BTW: did you got banned here?

On topic though, I'm willing to wait this argument out until I've played ME3.

#39
zweistein_J

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SpiffySquee wrote...



I did this rather quickly so the quality is a little shoddy, but it should clearly explain the points to everyone. Enjoy! ^_^


good points raised there!
nice!

#40
DxWill10

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we're doing it right now. Burying our heads in the sand.

-By 2050, there will be an additional 1.7 million people in America. (that's every man women and child in Mexico)
-Virtually all fish in the world will be gone in 50 years
-Our only sources of drinking water (aquifers) are dwindling while our populations increase. (Future wars will be fought over water)

Ah yes "overpopulation" mindlessly devouring resources allegedly increasing the rate at which we run out. We have dismissed that claim

#41
SpiffySquee

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Mister Mida wrote...

You sure got a lot of voices nagging you. I'd hate to be you.

Once again, assumptions mostly besides some good points.

Hmm... Wait, that got me thinking.

So we got one guy over here who reviews ME and focuses on the flaws while giving credit to some of the good stuff. And we got one guy over there who reviews ME (sort of) and focuses and the good stuff while admitting some stuff that's wrong.

Anti-Smudboy, is that you? I mean, you sure as hell start to sound as Smudboy.

BTW: did you got banned here?

On topic though, I'm willing to wait this argument out until I've played ME3.


Huh? what assumptions? I don't recall any assumptions at all in that video.

As for the anti smudboy,

A.I never talk like my opinion is solid fact. In every video, I make sure people know that this is simply what I believe, and that it is not necessarily any more valid than anyone else. Smudsy acts as though his video are irrefutable fact and people are blind not to see it.

B. 90% of smudsy videos are bashing ME2. I have videos of LPs of over 13 different games. less than 1 % of my videos are analysis of Mass effect games (not counting the LP of it of course)

C. Sumdboy is extremely intelligent. A little arrogant perhaps, but he does have a good grasp on scientific matters. I'm the kind of guy that would trade you a quarter for 2 dimes cause 2 is more than 1

D. Most importantly,  I never throw personal insults. I may disagree with someone's arguments, but I always respect their opinion and do not insult their intelligence simply because they have a different point of view. I don't know if smud was pushed or not, but he personally insulted a lot of people (including me) There is no need for that.

#42
Mister Mida

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SpiffySquee wrote...

Huh? what assumptions? I don't recall any assumptions at all in that video.

Around 12:45 or so you invent reasons why there would be no recordings, even Ashley says there are.

As for you not being the anti-smudboy; maybe not in behaviour, but certainly in role. But then again, you only counter against what other people say while smudboy takes the time to analyze stuff and tell about his own findings.

#43
Fishy

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Normally you don't build new stuff with very old material. The Quarians could probably give a great diagnostic about sovereign carcass.

#44
SpiffySquee

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Mister Mida wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Huh? what assumptions? I don't recall any assumptions at all in that video.

Around 12:45 or so you invent reasons why there would be no recordings, even Ashley says there are.

As for you not being the anti-smudboy; maybe not in behaviour, but certainly in role. But then again, you only counter against what other people say while smudboy takes the time to analyze stuff and tell about his own findings.


Those are not assumptions, they are simply pointing out that we have no evidence that they use cameras, and there are good reasons why they might not.  An assumption would be "They don't have cameras because they do not have the power to run them" I merely point out that we do not know enough about what they can and cannot take with them to make any assumptions about recording devices. Ash says there are recordings? Not saying your wrong, just not sure what recording you are talking about.

And last I checked, looking at he evidence we do or do not have and explain why this would make the council act the way it does, counts as analyzing and presenting my own findings...

#45
SpiffySquee

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Suprez30 wrote...

Normally you don't build new stuff with very old material. The Quarians could probably give a great diagnostic about sovereign carcass.


Sure you do! most of the metal we use today formed a very long time ago. melting metal and molding it, does not change the age of it. If I melt ice, and re freeze it, the age of the water is still the same.

#46
Praetor Knight

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Mister Mida wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Huh? what assumptions? I don't recall any assumptions at all in that video.

Around 12:45 or so you invent reasons why there would be no recordings, even Ashley says there are.

As for you not being the anti-smudboy; maybe not in behaviour, but certainly in role. But then again, you only counter against what other people say while smudboy takes the time to analyze stuff and tell about his own findings.


There is a sensor-suite built into the suit with a mini-frame, what's not clear is what type of data is recorded, and if any camera is built into the suit or not, or if cameras are built into certain weapons like assault rifles.


Then again, any visual evidence can still be brushed away, similar to swamp gas and weather balloons. And audio recordings could be submitted, but the Council did say they went to Ilos and could not corroborate what Shepard told them.

#47
didymos1120

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Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

My responses to his video, but for and against his arguments:

Shepard DID download a copy of Vigil to his omni-tool. It's in a conversation if you take Liara with you to Ilos.


Um, no, Vigil gives you a data file you put into the Citadel systems.  If you take Liara, what happens is that she balks at leaving because this may be the last chance there is to talk to Vigil. Since Saren will at any moment be moving his forces through the Conduit, Shep wisely decides to not delay.

#48
yfullman

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*Asari Councillor Mind melds with Shep. Acquires Cypher and vision of Prothean Warning, Believes Shep. Everyone dies anyway*

#49
yfullman

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Also I liked your video lol

#50
Pulletlamer

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I saw the video and I gotta agree completely with you, squee.

Imagine if one day one man enters to a congress shouting that the end of the world is coming, because he saw a vision on an artifact and God spoke to him towards it, so all governements should get ready for it and start tacking preventive measures. No one in his sane mind would believe him. Even if they believed it and investigated the supposed artifact, what? Is it gonna prove something related to the end of the world coming? No of course not, It's just an "artifact" that's there.

Aka the artifact being a prothean beacon.

Also the council can't compromise themselves to help Shepard and start announcing around that the Reapers are coming, they would only cause chaos.

Imagine yourself waking up and the News channel announcing GET ON UNDERGROUND BUNKERS THE END OF THE WORLD IS COMING OBAMA SAID IT!!!!1!!!!<_<