223 réponses à ce sujet

[SkittlesKat96]

There are so many reasons why the Council would deny the Reapers existing...I'm glad you made this video because I was getting annoyed of all the 'Am I the only one who noticed this absolutely glaring plot hole' threads

[Clonedzero]

Blarty wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

i never thought it was odd that the council denies the reapers, i mean what evidence has shepard really shown? he has absolutely no solid evidence.

think of it this way, if we sent a super badass special ops dude to say, russia to do some covert mission, then came back and started telling the military command and congress that theres a race of mole people living under ground planning to attack us and he has no solid evidence, do you think we'd believe him? really?

I'd imagine that Sovereign would be a pretty obvious 'Exhibit A' plus there is no doubt in my mind that the Council races would not have inspected Sovereign to see it was different from the geth technology.

a blown up ship where most of the wreckage wasnt salvagable isn't super great evidence, especially when to most people it just seemed like the geth version of a dreadnaught

[Blarty]

But there was enough wreckage to provide research for the Thanix Cannon, do you honestly believe that the remains of Sovereign just disappeared, or were vaporised into pieces of insignificant size?

I can understand the idea that 'it was just the geth' to a public audience, I can't however reconcile the blatant ignorance offered by the Council, particularly if you saved them, when dealing with Shepard directly.

Even a simple private message, arriving after the council meeting, of 'We understand your concerns over the Collectors, and your belief that they are, in turn, connected to the Reapers, but for the sake of public order and Citadel safety, the Council, at this time, cannot publicly corroborate the Reaper threat' would've sufficed and allow a hundred BSN threads to die happily

Modifié par Blarty, 01 août 2011 - 10:04 .

[didymos1120]

Wulfram wrote...

The "Saren made it up" theory doesn't really stand up when he committed suicide.

<turian councilor>Saren was clearly unhinged. Allying with geth.  Attacking the Citadel. No matter: we recovered no remains from the wreckage, and his alleged "suicide" would only serve to confirm it anyway.  But I'm beginning to wonder about you, Shepard.</turian councilor>

[Clonedzero]

Blarty wrote...

But there was enough wreckage to provide research for the Thanix Cannon, do you honestly believe that the remains of Sovereign just disappeared, or were vaporised into pieces of insignificant size?

I can understand the idea that 'it was just the geth' to a public audience, I can't however reconcile the blatant ignorance offered by the Council, particularly if you saved them, when dealing with Shepard directly.

Even a simple private message, arriving after the council meeting, of 'We understand your concerns over the Collectors, and your belief that they are, in turn, connected to the Reapers, but for the sake of public order and Citadel safety, the Council, at this time, cannot publicly corroborate the Reaper threat' would've sufficed and allow a hundred BSN threads to die happily

or maybe they just thought "boy! those geth have some neat new tech"

[Praetor Knight]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Because of some of the great points brought up in this thread, I made a quick add on to the video. It deals with Ash proving there are suit recordings, and the idea that he Asari could just mind meld with Shep to get he truth. Enjoy!!

Nice.


Next video, might need to touch on lobbyists and constituencies, if there are more questions regarding how the Council can down play Shepard and friends.
Uh, just sayin' that all!

[Clonedzero]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Because of some of the great points brought up in this thread, I made a quick add on to the video. It deals with Ash proving there are suit recordings, and the idea that he Asari could just mind meld with Shep to get he truth. Enjoy!!

good video dude

[Blarty]

Clonedzero wrote...

Blarty wrote...

But there was enough wreckage to provide research for the Thanix Cannon, do you honestly believe that the remains of Sovereign just disappeared, or were vaporised into pieces of insignificant size?

I can understand the idea that 'it was just the geth' to a public audience, I can't however reconcile the blatant ignorance offered by the Council, particularly if you saved them, when dealing with Shepard directly.

Even a simple private message, arriving after the council meeting, of 'We understand your concerns over the Collectors, and your belief that they are, in turn, connected to the Reapers, but for the sake of public order and Citadel safety, the Council, at this time, cannot publicly corroborate the Reaper threat' would've sufficed and allow a hundred BSN threads to die happily

or maybe they just thought "boy! those geth have some neat new tech"

Wouldn't the council, at least inform the Quarians about this new Geth tech and allow them to see if it appears to have a geth origin?

But then again, I guess, for the Council, ignorance is bliss, which is then replaced with hubris when they speak to Shepard, especially the Turian councillor

Modifié par Blarty, 01 août 2011 - 10:50 .

[asindre]

Blarty wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Blarty wrote...

But there was enough wreckage to provide research for the Thanix Cannon, do you honestly believe that the remains of Sovereign just disappeared, or were vaporised into pieces of insignificant size?

I can understand the idea that 'it was just the geth' to a public audience, I can't however reconcile the blatant ignorance offered by the Council, particularly if you saved them, when dealing with Shepard directly.

Even a simple private message, arriving after the council meeting, of 'We understand your concerns over the Collectors, and your belief that they are, in turn, connected to the Reapers, but for the sake of public order and Citadel safety, the Council, at this time, cannot publicly corroborate the Reaper threat' would've sufficed and allow a hundred BSN threads to die happily

or maybe they just thought "boy! those geth have some neat new tech"

Wouldn't the council, at least inform the Quarians about this new Geth tech and allow them to see if it appears to have a geth origin?

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

[didymos1120]

asindre wrote...

2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

In fact, they hardly know anything about what the geth have been up to over the last 300 years. That's why Tali really, really wanted that geth data you found in ME1.  Hell, that desire to find out how the geth had changed since quarian exile is why she even ended up in your party in the first place.

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[Swimming Ferret]

Can't wait to go "Reapers? But you dismissed that claim!" even as Reapers are attacking around them. >:/

Sometimes they need a good slap in the face before they'll accept anything, and even then they could be all "Oh no, you were just mistaken"

Stupid governments.

[Blarty]

asindre wrote...

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

Before the events of ME1, the geth had rarely been seen outside the Veil.... so by consequence neither had their technology, so the experts on geth and their technology would still be the Quarians.

Surely, before you make a wide ranging and generic decision like erasing the race that almost destroyed the Citadel from fact and history, you'd at least establish, or attempt to establish, some baseline facts and conclusions; just because the Quarians would not be able to authenticate Sovereign as geth technology, cannot drive a conclusion that Sovereign was built by the geth. There has been no other Geth dreadnought, no other 'being' that the geth are subservient to.

As I said, it's one thing to deny the Reaper existence publicly, it's a whole other ballgame to deny it to the people directly involved.

Modifié par Blarty, 01 août 2011 - 11:32 .

[asindre]

Blarty wrote...

asindre wrote...

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

Before the events of ME1, the geth had rarely been seen outside the Veil.... so by consequence neither had their technology, so the experts on geth and their technology would still be the Quarians.

No. There wouldn't be any experts on Geth technology since almost no one have seen them for hundreds of years. Just because no one knows more about the geth doesn't make quarians experts.

[Blarty]

asindre wrote...

Blarty wrote...

asindre wrote...

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

Before the events of ME1, the geth had rarely been seen outside the Veil.... so by consequence neither had their technology, so the experts on geth and their technology would still be the Quarians.

No. There wouldn't be any experts on Geth technology since almost no one have seen them for hundreds of years. Just because no one knows more about the geth doesn't make quarians experts.

Ah ok, fair enough - the Quarian's would be about as close as you'd get to experts... plus in ME2 Tali clearly knows her way around geth technology enough to be able to see which parts are safe (of course, her father putting them back together doesn't help, but there you go) from joining back up to the network etc.

[SpiffySquee]

Blarty wrote...

asindre wrote...

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

Before the events of ME1, the geth had rarely been seen outside the Veil.... so by consequence neither had their technology, so the experts on geth and their technology would still be the Quarians.

Surely, before you make a wide ranging and generic decision like erasing the race that almost destroyed the Citadel from fact and history, you'd at least establish, or attempt to establish, some baseline facts and conclusions; just because the Quarians would not be able to authenticate Sovereign as geth technology, cannot drive a conclusion that Sovereign was built by the geth. There has been no other Geth dreadnought, no other 'being' that the geth are subservient to.

As I said, it's one thing to deny the Reaper existence publicly, it's a whole other ballgame to deny it to the people directly involved.

Concerning the idea of telling Shep the truth in private, should I assume you did not watch the video in the original post? It give a very good reason. Why in the world would you tell someone you are not sure is mentally stable and working for a terrorist organization your true intentions and plans? Also, how do they know Shep won't turn around and show the public what they said? Much easier to just deny it to everyone.

And when did they ever say they thought Saren convinced the geth that the giant ship was a reaper? They only said Saren convinced the Geth that reapers exist, not that Sov was one. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Of course they had never seen a geth ship as big as Sov until then.... They hadn't seen any geth ship until then. Sure you see a few drop ships here and there, but just because you have only seen a few destroyers so far, doesn't mean there isn't a battle ship with their main fleet (so to speak)  And that is a heck of a lot more beleivable than robot unicorns comming to kill us all.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 01 août 2011 - 12:58 .

[didymos1120]

Blarty wrote...

Ah ok, fair enough - the Quarian's would be about as close as you'd get to experts... plus in ME2 Tali clearly knows her way around geth technology enough to be able to see which parts are safe (of course, her father putting them back together doesn't help, but there you go) from joining back up to the network etc.

By ME2, she's spent two years working on geth and she had a strong tech background to begin with, plus familiarity with historical geth designs which would flatten the learning curve a bit.  Also, Rael'Zorah not only had those two years as well, but an entire team working on his project.  And he'd have been sharing any particularly useful knowledge the project produced with Tali so she'd be even more effective at gathering parts in the field. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 août 2011 - 01:07 .

[asindre]

Blarty wrote...

Ah ok, fair enough - the Quarian's would be about as close as you'd get to experts... plus in ME2 Tali clearly knows her way around geth technology enough to be able to see which parts are safe (of course, her father putting them back together doesn't help, but there you go) from joining back up to the network etc.

Well yes, The Quarians built the geth so they knows which parts of them are safe and which are not (assuming the Geth haven't upgraded themselves too much), but they still wouldn't know what technology (ships, weapons and so on) the Geth have because that didn't exist when the Quarians and the Geth weren't at war.

[didymos1120]

SpiffySquee wrote...

And when did they ever say they thought Saren convinced the geth that the giant ship was a reaper? They only said Saren convinced the Geth that reapers exist, not that Sov was one. I don't know where you are getting that from.

I think it stems from confusing that with the fact that the Council also thinks Saren convinced Shepard (and pals) that Sovereign was a Reaper. Or at least, they claim to think that. 

[didymos1120]

asindre wrote...

Well yes, The Quarians built the geth so they knows which parts of them are safe and which are not (assuming the Geth haven't upgraded themselves too much), but they still wouldn't know what technology (ships, weapons and so on) the Geth have because that didn't exist when the Quarians and the Geth weren't at war.

There's actually a very easy way to demonstrate this.  Two easy ways, in fact:

1. Haratar Station.  No one had a clue they'd totally remodeled the thing and filled it with untold amounts of computational power, and that thing was outside the Veil the whole time they worked on it.

2. This: "A megastructure. The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere. When completed, we will all upload to it." No one had a clue they were doing that either, and megastructures are some seriously ambitious engineering.

[Ghost Warrior]

Good video,a lot of good points. But what about this one - why didn't asari Councilor try mind-melding with Shepard?

[asindre]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Good video,a lot of good points. But what about this one - why didn't asari Councilor try mind-melding with Shepard?

He made a part 2.


Squee you should edit this into the OP so it's easier to find 

[Ghost Warrior]

Thanks,I didn't see it.

[Blarty]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Blarty wrote...

asindre wrote...

1. How do you know they didn't?
2. How would that help the Quarians and Geth have been at war for years, the Quarians don't know everything the Geth does.
 

Before the events of ME1, the geth had rarely been seen outside the Veil.... so by consequence neither had their technology, so the experts on geth and their technology would still be the Quarians.

Surely, before you make a wide ranging and generic decision like erasing the race that almost destroyed the Citadel from fact and history, you'd at least establish, or attempt to establish, some baseline facts and conclusions; just because the Quarians would not be able to authenticate Sovereign as geth technology, cannot drive a conclusion that Sovereign was built by the geth. There has been no other Geth dreadnought, no other 'being' that the geth are subservient to.

As I said, it's one thing to deny the Reaper existence publicly, it's a whole other ballgame to deny it to the people directly involved.

Concerning the idea of telling Shep the truth in private, should I assume you did not watch the video in the original post? It give a very good reason. Why in the world would you tell someone you are not sure is mentally stable and working for a terrorist organization your true intentions and plans? Also, how do they know Shep won't turn around and show the public what they said? Much easier to just deny it to everyone.

And when did they ever say they thought Saren convinced the geth that the giant ship was a reaper? They only said Saren convinced the Geth that reapers exist, not that Sov was one. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Of course they had never seen a geth ship as big as Sov until then.... They hadn't seen any geth ship until then. Sure you see a few drop ships here and there, but just because you have only seen a few destroyers so far, doesn't mean there isn't a battle ship with their main fleet (so to speak)  And that is a heck of a lot more beleivable than robot unicorns comming to kill us all.

You may well say that the Council have fears of Shepard being mentally unstable, so the first thing we're going to do with Mr. Mentally Unstable, is to completely disagree and override anything he says and
throw a few airquotes in for good measure..... hmm, not so sure on that one.
Whilst it is easier tio deny it to everyone, as you say, it's much less problematic to agree with Shepard face-to-face and then be seen to do nothing publicly ; much easier to agree and integrate into his presumed fantasy, monitor, guide and deal with him accordingly, than to annoy him in the middle of the Presidium.

I don't understand where you think I said that Saren convinced the geth that the giant ship was a reaper. What I said was that lack of hard evidence of Sovereign being built by the geth does not eradicate a conclusion that Sovereign was not built by the geth. The Thanix Cannon was developed from salvaged sovereign material, given it's destructive firepower, and the fact that the technology within the Cannon can be put on a ship as small as the Normandy, do you not find it odd that the geth ships were not equipped with similar firepower, in the interests of being prepared for an all out attack on the Citadel, it would be highly likely that a geth coordinated attack (i.e. Sovereign being just a bigger geth ship) would have ensured that all geth ships were outfitted with as good systems and armaments as possible.

Anecdotally, the council could assume, and assume only, that Sovereign was a geth ship, but no more.

Belief is not equal to fact, otherwise we'd all be politicians. My point is like all political machinations, whilst it is in their interest to side with Shepard regarding Reapers, the Council will do so (ME1), until it is no longer in their interests (ME2). If we look at the council members (Paragon) that Shepard talks to, three member of three different races, working together, is it really such a leap of faith to believe that the geth and Saren were working with another third party?

It's certainly a good plot foil, and describes perfectly the machiavellian nature of politics. I'm not personally at odds with the Council sweeping it under the carpet for the public good, I am at odds however with the reasoning behind it at a governmental level - if the Council believe it is the geth, after the first Normandy blew up, why didn't the Council presume it was geth then as well..... and send a force into the Veil, for it would be much simpler to assume that the geth could build another sovereign or even more of them.... pre-emptive strikes could stop this manufacturing, before a secondary attack with more Sovereign dreadnoughts

The fact is that 'Reapers' is an inconvenience to the Council and nothing more, and I doubt they've fully explored what their conclusion of 'Oh well it's just the geth' could potentially mean

Modifié par Blarty, 01 août 2011 - 02:22 .

[asindre]

Blarty wrote...
 The Thanix Cannon was developed from salvaged sovereign material, given it's destructive firepower, and the fact that the technology within the Cannon can be put on a ship as small as the Normandy, do you not find it odd that the geth ships were not equipped with similar firepower, in the interests of being prepared for an all out attack on the Citadel, it would be highly likely that a geth coordinated attack (i.e. Sovereign being just a bigger geth ship) would have ensured that all geth ships were outfitted with as good systems and armaments as possible.

The Geth could have found the ship and used it as their own. If they didn't understand the technology, that would explain why they didn't use it in their own ships.

Anecdotally, the council could assume, and assume only, that Sovereign was a geth ship, but no more.

Belief is not equal to fact, otherwise we'd all be politicians. My point is like all political machinations, whilst it is in their interest to side with Shepard regarding Reapers, the Council will do so (ME1), until it is no longer in their interests (ME2). If we look at the council members (Paragon) that Shepard talks to, three member of three different races, working together, is it really such a leap of faith to believe that the geth and Saren were working with another third party?

If that third party is a race of mythical creatures then yes. If I told you Hitler was working with the Easter bunny too kill us all would you believe me? 

[Blarty]

asindre wrote...

Blarty wrote...
 The Thanix Cannon was developed from salvaged sovereign material, given it's destructive firepower, and the fact that the technology within the Cannon can be put on a ship as small as the Normandy, do you not find it odd that the geth ships were not equipped with similar firepower, in the interests of being prepared for an all out attack on the Citadel, it would be highly likely that a geth coordinated attack (i.e. Sovereign being just a bigger geth ship) would have ensured that all geth ships were outfitted with as good systems and armaments as possible.

The Geth could have found the ship and used it as their own. If they didn't understand the technology, that would explain why they didn't use it in their own ships.

Anecdotally, the council could assume, and assume only, that Sovereign was a geth ship, but no more.

Belief is not equal to fact, otherwise we'd all be politicians. My point is like all political machinations, whilst it is in their interest to side with Shepard regarding Reapers, the Council will do so (ME1), until it is no longer in their interests (ME2). If we look at the council members (Paragon) that Shepard talks to, three member of three different races, working together, is it really such a leap of faith to believe that the geth and Saren were working with another third party?

If that third party is a race of mythical creatures then yes. If I told you Hitler was working with the Easter bunny too kill us all would you believe me? 

And yet realistically the Collector's are treated with near myth as well. There's also no reason to believe that the 'Reapers' isn't just a ship but a thrid-party race that 'pilots' Sovereign

My point is that whilst I don't disagree with the council to sweep the Reapers 'under the carpet' as who would believe them (which is exactly your point), in a Council (where that Council survives Sovereigns attack) to Shepard discussion, it smacks of foolishness, arrogance and hubris when the council can neither confirm nor deny what Sovereign is. Sure it's all well and good to say it's the geth, but it shows an absence of fact finding. To instigate a belief that it is the doing of the geth is one thing, to then assume that and seemingly have no prepartion for a second attack by the geth makes no sense.

It's fine to deny this creature to the masses, but why deny it to people who were there at the time with you? Similarly, if the Council is destroyed and a new Council is installed, I have no issue with that Council denying the existence of Reapers, because they will not have seen Sovereign attack, and would probably have been put in place well after the start of clear-up operations.

It basically comes down to the fact that Shepard's 'death' was a convenient excuse for the 'existing' council to bury the Reapers in some bad news drawer, and when Shepard's back in ME2, they have no reason to investigate this further.

Modifié par Blarty, 01 août 2011 - 04:02 .