223 réponses à ce sujet

[asindre]

Blarty wrote...
And yet realistically the Collector's are treated with near myth as well

The difference is that they know the collectors exist, even though they don't hear much about them.

There's also no reason to believe that the 'Reapers' isn't just a ship but a thrid-party race that 'pilots' Sovereign

Shepard tells them what the reapers are.

My point is that whilst I don't disagree with the council to sweep the Reapers 'under the carpet' as who would believe them (which is exactly your point), in a Council (where that Council survives Sovereigns attack) to Shepard discussion, it smacks of foolishness, arrogance and hubris when the council can neither confirm nor deny what Sovereign is. Sure it's all well and good to say it's the geth, but it shows an absence of fact finding. To instigate a belief that it is the doing of the geth is one thing, to then assume that and seemingly have no prepartion for a second attack by the geth makes no sense.

I agree with this. They should prepare for another attack, and maybe also launch a counter-attack. And they might be doing just that. We don't see them much in ME2 and for all we know they might be building more defenses, and even launching an attack against the Geth. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. And why would the council tell Shepard about it if they were, he works for the enemy.

It's fine to deny this creature to the masses, but why deny it to people who were there at the time with you? Similarly, if the Council is destroyed and a new Council is installed, I have no issue with that Council denying the existence of Reapers, because they will not have seen Sovereign attack, and would probably have been put in place well after the start of clear-up operations. 

Maybe the coucil really believe it was a Geth ship. Even if the council saw the attack all they saw was a giant ship, there was no reason to believe it wasn't Geth just like all the other ships. And even if they believe it's a reaper, they're not gonna tell you, even face-to-face alone because as so many here in this thread has pointed out Shepards suit can record and they wouldn't want him to have a recording of them saying the reapers exist.

[SpiffySquee]

Blarty wrote...

asindre wrote...

Blarty wrote...
 The Thanix Cannon was developed from salvaged sovereign material, given it's destructive firepower, and the fact that the technology within the Cannon can be put on a ship as small as the Normandy, do you not find it odd that the geth ships were not equipped with similar firepower, in the interests of being prepared for an all out attack on the Citadel, it would be highly likely that a geth coordinated attack (i.e. Sovereign being just a bigger geth ship) would have ensured that all geth ships were outfitted with as good systems and armaments as possible.

The Geth could have found the ship and used it as their own. If they didn't understand the technology, that would explain why they didn't use it in their own ships.

Anecdotally, the council could assume, and assume only, that Sovereign was a geth ship, but no more.

Belief is not equal to fact, otherwise we'd all be politicians. My point is like all political machinations, whilst it is in their interest to side with Shepard regarding Reapers, the Council will do so (ME1), until it is no longer in their interests (ME2). If we look at the council members (Paragon) that Shepard talks to, three member of three different races, working together, is it really such a leap of faith to believe that the geth and Saren were working with another third party?

If that third party is a race of mythical creatures then yes. If I told you Hitler was working with the Easter bunny too kill us all would you believe me? 

And yet realistically the Collector's are treated with near myth as well. There's also no reason to believe that the 'Reapers' isn't just a ship but a thrid-party race that 'pilots' Sovereign

My point is that whilst I don't disagree with the council to sweep the Reapers 'under the carpet' as who would believe them (which is exactly your point), in a Council (where that Council survives Sovereigns attack) to Shepard discussion, it smacks of foolishness, arrogance and hubris when the council can neither confirm nor deny what Sovereign is. Sure it's all well and good to say it's the geth, but it shows an absence of fact finding. To instigate a belief that it is the doing of the geth is one thing, to then assume that and seemingly have no prepartion for a second attack by the geth makes no sense.

It's fine to deny this creature to the masses, but why deny it to people who were there at the time with you? Similarly, if the Council is destroyed and a new Council is installed, I have no issue with that Council denying the existence of Reapers, because they will not have seen Sovereign attack, and would probably have been put in place well after the start of clear-up operations.

It basically comes down to the fact that Shepard's 'death' was a convenient excuse for the 'existing' council to bury the Reapers in some bad news drawer, and when Shepard's back in ME2, they have no reason to investigate this further.

First, the part about Saren telling the Geth Sov was a reaper was said by Captain obvious, who share the same Icon as you and I. My sincere apologies on that one.

As the video explains, it is plausible that the Council really does not believe in the reapers and really does feel Sov was a Geth ship. However, even if you are right, They would never publicly say the reapers do not exist and then tell someone like Shep they do. One tape record released to the public and their credibility is shot in a time they can't afford to lose it. It is much safer to tell Shepard he is crazy (if a bit mean) then to risk the entire council space not believing you in such a dangerous time.

And, as always.... Shepard is working for a terrorist group! Why would you give him any information as to your real intentions??? Please answer that one.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 01 août 2011 - 08:00 .

[Gabey5]

good video

[Blarty]

SpiffySquee wrote...

First, the part about Saren telling the Geth Sov was a reaper was said by Captain obvious, who share the same Icon as you and I. My sincere apologies on that one.

ah no probs

As the video explains, it is plausible that the Council really does not believe in the reapers and really does feel Sov was a Geth ship. However, even if you are right, They would never publicly say the reapers do not exist and then tell someone like Shep they do. One tape record released to the public and their credibility is shot in a time they can't afford to lose it. It is much safer to tell Shepard he is crazy (if a bit mean) then to risk the entire council space not believing you in such a dangerous time.

And, as always.... Shepard is working for a terrorist group! Why would you give him any information as to your real intentions??? Please answer that one.

Yes I can see your point of view - however, I think it's equally as crazy and dangerous to be at complete odds with Shepard - this is 'the hero of the Citadel' - how much weight does that carry with the citizens of the Citadel, he's back from the dead even.

Surely it's better for the council to offer Shepard some form of workable viewpoint and for him to be a minor irritation, than to risk open political conflict and for him to be a knife in their back.

Modifié par Blarty, 02 août 2011 - 11:03 .

[SpiffySquee]

Blarty wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

First, the part about Saren telling the Geth Sov was a reaper was said by Captain obvious, who share the same Icon as you and I. My sincere apologies on that one.

ah no probs

As the video explains, it is plausible that the Council really does not believe in the reapers and really does feel Sov was a Geth ship. However, even if you are right, They would never publicly say the reapers do not exist and then tell someone like Shep they do. One tape record released to the public and their credibility is shot in a time they can't afford to lose it. It is much safer to tell Shepard he is crazy (if a bit mean) then to risk the entire council space not believing you in such a dangerous time.

And, as always.... Shepard is working for a terrorist group! Why would you give him any information as to your real intentions??? Please answer that one.

Yes I can see your point of view - however, I think it's equally as crazy and dangerous to be at complete odds with Shepard - this is 'the hero of the Citadel' - how much weight does that carry with the citizens of the Citadel, he's back from the dead even.

Surely it's better for the council to offer Shepard some form of workable viewpoint and for him to be a minor irritation, than to risk open political conflict and for him to be a knife in their back.

I am inclined to agree, but I wonder how much of that is because we are playing a a game and know that Shep is a bad ass. Would a real government be that concerned about one man hating them? Remember, the point is not that the council is taking the best course of action, but only that it is not unbelievable that they would take the actions they do. 

[magnuskn]

I will be very disappointed if I don't get the chance as Shepard to say "Ah, Reapers..." with airquotes to the Turian councillor. I'll even happily eat Renegade points for this.

Modifié par magnuskn, 02 août 2011 - 10:13 .

[NightAntilli]

The council are sheeple. That's why they deny it.

[George-Kinsill]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Blarty wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

First, the part about Saren telling the Geth Sov was a reaper was said by Captain obvious, who share the same Icon as you and I. My sincere apologies on that one.

ah no probs

As the video explains, it is plausible that the Council really does not believe in the reapers and really does feel Sov was a Geth ship. However, even if you are right, They would never publicly say the reapers do not exist and then tell someone like Shep they do. One tape record released to the public and their credibility is shot in a time they can't afford to lose it. It is much safer to tell Shepard he is crazy (if a bit mean) then to risk the entire council space not believing you in such a dangerous time.

And, as always.... Shepard is working for a terrorist group! Why would you give him any information as to your real intentions??? Please answer that one.

Yes I can see your point of view - however, I think it's equally as crazy and dangerous to be at complete odds with Shepard - this is 'the hero of the Citadel' - how much weight does that carry with the citizens of the Citadel, he's back from the dead even.

Surely it's better for the council to offer Shepard some form of workable viewpoint and for him to be a minor irritation, than to risk open political conflict and for him to be a knife in their back.

I am inclined to agree, but I wonder how much of that is because we are playing a a game and know that Shep is a bad ass. Would a real government be that concerned about one man hating them? Remember, the point is not that the council is taking the best course of action, but only that it is not unbelievable that they would take the actions they do. 

THhey should be worried about Shepard after the whole Saren ordeal, where a charismatic spectre was able to to somehow convince the geth, which always shoot and ask questions later when people cross the veil, to attack the citadel, breaking 300 years of tradition.

And what is Shepard? A charismatic spectre that naturally draws people to him, is considered the savior of the citadel, with Turians naming their children after him, the migrant fleet allowing him onto their ships and accepting his council, and able to convince a nationilistic krogan willing to do anything for his species to destroy the cure for the genophage. Shepard is a natural leader, and for the council to just dismiss him as a minor irritance is just idiotic, as according to their own beliefs, they could have a Saren 2.0. So yes, the councl should give him a hint of some sorts that they are willing to consider the Reaper theory after ensuring that he has no recording devices on, in order to avoid making a powerful enemy.

[Soruyao]

So one of your best secret agents goes rogue and recruits a bunch of dangerous robots who attack the citadel. Your other best agent dies and is then ressurected by a known terrorist cell (with creepy red scars to further show the unnaturalness of it) and then gets spotted in a really seedy area gathering up a collection of morally ambiguous and dangerous individuals. Eventually he/she ambles over to your station and demands the council give information that directly discounts things you're on record saying and which a terrorist cell could cause a ton of damage (To both your trustability and by causing easily exploitable panic and chaos) by recording and redistributing, and you think that it would be a smart idea to play along?

[Afalstein]

The council's early disbelief is VERY plausible--Shepherd's basically asking them to believe in a bad dream he had, one which even he doesn't understand.. The only part that gives it ANY plausibility is Liara's note that the beacons are designed to do that, information that conceivably only she might have or trust. Personally I find Anderson's level of belief to be unrealistic, as he never had the vision or even saw Shepherd having it. Makes you wonder if his belief of Shepherd's account is enhanced by his dislike of Saren.

The council's later disbelief is less understandable, and smacks of bad storytelling. Seriously? NONE of the parts of Sovereign were recovered for analysis? That thing was huge, and it broke into sizeable chunks. Realistically, some significant pieces would HAVE to be saved. Heck, part of Sovereign smashed INTO THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS! Where'd that one go?

Also, NO ONE saw Vigil? Or even had any records of him? Don't those suits of armor we wear have any cameras or anything? Wouldn't a half-way decent Special Tasks Group team be able to at least find the remants of Vigil and verify there WAS such a thing there?

IF that was at all likely, perhaps the council might be justified in thinking that Sovereign was simply a high-tech geth ship--little is known about the geth, after all, and they hadn't been seen at large for 300 years. Sovereign could have been a Geth mass-consciousness, a leader robot of sorts. Really, the only part of the attack on the Citadel that did NOT go according to the Council's scenario was Saren's back-door into the Citadel (and Sovereign's sheer power, but again, geth tech). It's not unreasonable that a top Spectre might find a way to infiltrate the Citadel.

But did NO ONE recover Saren's body and the Reaper implants? Or see the videos of his confrontation with Shepherd? Surely some of the surveillence in the council chambers must have been working.

[GreenDragon37]

The problem is not that they are lying to the galaxy, it's about them saying the Reapers don't exist to Shepard's face. Shepard knows the Reapers exist; if the Council really knew they should have told him/her (especially if he saved their lives). But it was just a poor excuse just to hammer in the whole "Cerberus is your only option" thing BioWare was going for in Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 03 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[didymos1120]

Afalstein wrote...

But did NO ONE recover Saren's body and the Reaper implants?

Saren burned to ash.  Then part of Sovereign's leg landed on said ashes.

[SpiffySquee]

Afalstein wrote...

The council's early disbelief is VERY plausible--Shepherd's basically asking them to believe in a bad dream he had, one which even he doesn't understand.. The only part that gives it ANY plausibility is Liara's note that the beacons are designed to do that, information that conceivably only she might have or trust. Personally I find Anderson's level of belief to be unrealistic, as he never had the vision or even saw Shepherd having it. Makes you wonder if his belief of Shepherd's account is enhanced by his dislike of Saren.

The council's later disbelief is less understandable, and smacks of bad storytelling. Seriously? NONE of the parts of Sovereign were recovered for analysis? That thing was huge, and it broke into sizeable chunks. Realistically, some significant pieces would HAVE to be saved. Heck, part of Sovereign smashed INTO THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS! Where'd that one go?

Also, NO ONE saw Vigil? Or even had any records of him? Don't those suits of armor we wear have any cameras or anything? Wouldn't a half-way decent Special Tasks Group team be able to at least find the remants of Vigil and verify there WAS such a thing there?

IF that was at all likely, perhaps the council might be justified in thinking that Sovereign was simply a high-tech geth ship--little is known about the geth, after all, and they hadn't been seen at large for 300 years. Sovereign could have been a Geth mass-consciousness, a leader robot of sorts. Really, the only part of the attack on the Citadel that did NOT go according to the Council's scenario was Saren's back-door into the Citadel (and Sovereign's sheer power, but again, geth tech). It's not unreasonable that a top Spectre might find a way to infiltrate the Citadel.

But did NO ONE recover Saren's body and the Reaper implants? Or see the videos of his confrontation with Shepherd? Surely some of the surveillence in the council chambers must have been working.

Everyone of your arguments are adressed in the video (and the video response attached to it)  in the OP. Watch it and then post if you don't agree :happy:

[SpiffySquee]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is not that they are lying to the galaxy, it's about them saying the Reapers don't exist to Shepard's face. Shepard knows the Reapers exist; if the Council really knew they should have told him/her (especially if he saved their lives). But it was just a poor excuse just to hammer in the whole "Cerberus is your only option" thing BioWare was going for in Mass Effect 2.

so what happens when they tell Shep he/she is right and Shep turns around and releases an audio recording to the public of the Council admitting the reaper threat? Why would they even take that chance?

[LilyasAvalon]

There was never an issue really.

In Government, as in Media, you aren't allowed to mention the giant pink elephant in the room...
...Or in this case, the giant sapient ship that tried to kill you and crashed into your backyard.

[GreenDragon37]

SpiffySquee wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is not that they are lying to the galaxy, it's about them saying the Reapers don't exist to Shepard's face. Shepard knows the Reapers exist; if the Council really knew they should have told him/her (especially if he saved their lives). But it was just a poor excuse just to hammer in the whole "Cerberus is your only option" thing BioWare was going for in Mass Effect 2.

so what happens when they tell Shep he/she is right and Shep turns around and releases an audio recording to the public of the Council admitting the reaper threat? Why would they even take that chance?

So they don't lose an ally in Shepard. The first human Spectre, the one who saved their lives/put them in power. The person who has a lot of influence and someone who they don't want working with Cerberus. Yeah, that's why. And I don't think Shep would go around telling everyone if the Council told him/her that they were building in secret and taking measures to prepare for the Reapers.

The Council just made Cerberus look better than themselves.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 03 août 2011 - 05:46 .

[littlezack]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is not that they are lying to the galaxy, it's about them saying the Reapers don't exist to Shepard's face. Shepard knows the Reapers exist; if the Council really knew they should have told him/her (especially if he saved their lives). But it was just a poor excuse just to hammer in the whole "Cerberus is your only option" thing BioWare was going for in Mass Effect 2.

so what happens when they tell Shep he/she is right and Shep turns around and releases an audio recording to the public of the Council admitting the reaper threat? Why would they even take that chance?

So they don't lose an ally in Shepard. The first human Spectre, the one who saved their lives/put them in power. The person who has a lot of influence and someone who they don't want working with Cerberus. Yeah, that's why.

You don't pay attention to many modern day politicians, do you?

Also, keep in mind that Shepard came back from the dead and was reported to be working with a known terrorist organization. These are two extremely suspicious things.

[SpiffySquee]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

The problem is not that they are lying to the galaxy, it's about them saying the Reapers don't exist to Shepard's face. Shepard knows the Reapers exist; if the Council really knew they should have told him/her (especially if he saved their lives). But it was just a poor excuse just to hammer in the whole "Cerberus is your only option" thing BioWare was going for in Mass Effect 2.

so what happens when they tell Shep he/she is right and Shep turns around and releases an audio recording to the public of the Council admitting the reaper threat? Why would they even take that chance?

So they don't lose an ally in Shepard. The first human Spectre, the one who saved their lives/put them in power. The person who has a lot of influence and someone who they don't want working with Cerberus. Yeah, that's why. And I don't think Shep would go around telling everyone if the Council told him/her that they were building in secret and taking measures to prepare for the Reapers.

The Council just made Cerberus look better than themselves.

You are completely ignoring the fact that this "great man" is working with an avowed enemy of the council. It would be like the Allies giving sensitive information to a man openly working with the **** simply because he had done a lot for them two years ago. That is crazy.
Shepard may or may not turn around and expose what the council told him to the public, but it's too great a risk. If that happened, No one would be able to trust anything the council said because they denied the Reapers publicly and said something different Privately. That is what we call political suicide when it is exposed. So risk the help of one ally (even a good one) or risk losing all credibility whatsoever with the entire galaxy ... is it really a hard choice?

[ThePwener]

Great vid. Loved the Paul-Frank bit with Sovereign.

[lovgreno]

The Council can't take Shepards bad dreams as a evidence and even so they have a lot of other people except Shepard to consider when trying to keep a huge galaxy somewhat stable politicaly and economicaly. My Shepards don't hold this against the Council as they know they are not the centre of the universe.

Edit: And working with Failberus makes everyone untrustworthy, even for Failberus themselves, so why should the Council make a exception for Shepard?

Modifié par lovgreno, 04 août 2011 - 11:51 .

[Geth_Prime]

This whole explanation wouldn't be needed if people didn't look for ways to nitpick Mass Effect's plot. I would do exactly the same in the Council's position. The only evidence you have of a Reaper's existence is one ship that could, for all you know, be a geth ship. The only person telling you otherwise is a member of a species that has very little experience in Citadel space, who is working with a terrorist organisation. Are you really going to risk time, money, people and resources for a cause with that much to go on? I think not.

Btw, loved the video Squee. Love all your videos for that matter.

[Gabey5]

NightAntilli wrote...

The council are sheeple. That's why they deny it.

yes the three most powerfula nd influential beings in the galaxy  are "sheeple"

"people believe differently then me.. they must be sheeple"

Modifié par Gabey5, 04 août 2011 - 02:31 .

[snackrat]

I found that video fascinating, thank you very much!

A segment was mentioned about Vigil's communication being telephathic, so even with the mentioned 'suit recordings', what would it be recording? The corrupted streams of skipping orange light? Technically everyone is speaking their own language and is equipped with translators to understand everyone else's, and without information on the prothean language, what would the omni-tool/suit be recording? A bunch of blips and beeps of 'data' sounds, perhaps, or the strange language of the protheans directly?

Even if Vigil were in fact speaking 'basic', all the other points still stand. MAKER KNOWS I HATE the Council and how stubborn they are, but the POINTS. STILL. STAND.

As an additional note, you're right. It's not the smartest people how make government, but the most well-connected, and the most ambitious. The Udinas of the world. A shame really, that those suited for ruling and/or making desicions are the ones who never run for office.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 04 août 2011 - 03:30 .

[SpiffySquee]

Karsciyin wrote...

I found that video fascinating, thank you very much!

A segment was mentioned about Vigil's communication being telephathic, so even with the mentioned 'suit recordings', what would it be recording? The corrupted streams of skipping orange light? Technically everyone is speaking their own language and is equipped with translators to understand everyone else's, and without information on the prothean language, what would the omni-tool/suit be recording? A bunch of blips and beeps of 'data' sounds, perhaps, or the strange language of the protheans directly?

Even if Vigil were in fact speaking 'basic', all the other points still stand. MAKER KNOWS I HATE the Council and how stubborn they are, but the POINTS. STILL. STAND.

As an additional note, you're right. It's not the smartest people how make government, but the most well-connected, and the most ambitious. The Udinas of the world. A shame really, that those suited for ruling and/or making desicions are the ones who never run for office.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it! I think you might be a bit too harsh on politicians. I think the majority have a good head on their shoulders... it's just the crazy minority that stands out

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 04 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Geth_Prime]

Unfortunately Squee, the crazy minority tend to be the ones with the most power. Anyhow, I look forward to the "I told ya so" in ME3. Or I might just disconnect again.
Btw, Squee, this is kind of off-topic but have you ever played FemShep? Because not enough people do FemShep LPs and yours would be the most entertaining. Sorry for going off-topic here.