First video How obviously diferent are Sovereign and the geth ships? Show me the short list of what the differences are between the two ships. I can ask you to make a list of the similarities between the two. Is there anything you can add there?
- Sovereign and the geth are completely
alien to each other. There
must be countless differences.
- Sovereign, as a Reaper, is far more advanced and powerful than the geth. Think of it this way, can you tell the difference between an 18th century pistol and a modern day pistol? A 19th century car and a modern day car? A 16th century warship and a modern battleship? A WW1 milltary tank and a modern military tank?
It should be painfully obvious how different they are.
- Reapers are made by melting and processing millions and millions of people into goo. The geth, on the other hand, are purely synthetic. EDI confirmed that the Reapers are a combination of both organic and synthetic material. When analyzing Sovereign’s remains, didn’t anyone at least find something organic about it?
For all we know, the geth could have copied Sovereign’s design after they turned heretic and made modifications to their ships to be more like Sovereigns. Such as?
Did they process millions of organics into goo? No.
Sovereign was worshipped as a god. Why would the geth copy what they worship and why would Sovereign allow itself to be studied?
Legion confirmd that the geth don’t have the technology to build such a powerful ship like Sovereign. The geth ships don’t even have Thanix cannons and they don’t look like cuttlefish.
Legion never makes any mention about it too. He was able to guide Shepard to and throughout the Heretic base without problems, answaering and explaining every question Shepard asked about the station and the geth. He never makes any note of something being different except when he found out that the Heretics were spying on his people.
And check
this video. We see how a ship of the True geth looks like. It doesn’t look different from the Heretics. Sadly, the quality isn’t really the best.
Let me give you an example, let’s say ships from England and ships from China back in the 16th century decide to attack the Native Americans of North America. Now, they‘re both going to have ships very different make, very different materials, very different designs. But do you think the Native Americans are gonna think they are two separate people? No, of course not! Not from one battle. They are just gonna assume that the same person make two types of ships.This is a very, VERY bad analogy.
I’ll just say that I’m pretty sure we have far more knowledge, science and technology at our disposal then Indians, especially in the 22nd century with other multiple space-faring aliens.
Shepard couldn’t download data from Vigil because the omni-tool wouldn’t have interface for Prothein data. The Protheins communicated telepathically, remember? The reason Shepard and his companion were able to communicate with Vigil was because Vigil adapted himself to match their language.When Vigil shut down, that system shut down with him. There’s nothing the Council could have gotten from him.But if you can somehow prove that they were able to get all this information from Vigil, I’ll say it’s a very valid argument.Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
Cerberus wasn’t gonna share the derelict Reaper to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard also destroyed it so he couldn’t show it to the Council.Shepard collects some research and recordings from the derelict Reaper. He could have shared them with the Council.
I wish there was an option to scan anything with your omni-tool as much as possible and then send it to the Council but the game doesn’t allow it.
By the end of Arrival, Shepard knows that the Alliance already knows about the Reapers so what’s the point in convincing the Council?Do I really have to answer this?
Do you think that the Alliance can stop the Reapers all by themselves?
What other evidences does the Council have as far as evidence goes except for Shepard’s words? None! - Everyone knows that the Protheins went extinct but don’t know how or why. An entire advanced species which had an empire stretched across the whole galaxy just simply disappeared! Doesn’t that raise any red flags?
What about these:
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Helymehttp://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Einganahttp://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Armenihttp://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Etamishttp://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Atahilhttp://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Joabhttp://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Aphrashttp://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Bothroshttp://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Tosal_Nymhttp://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Gaelonhttp://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Klendagonhttp://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Vecchiohttp://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Gamayunhttp://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Junthor I think there are more planets which I could add but I won’t bother finding them.
The Protheins aren’t the only spacefaring species known to exist. There were other mass extinctions around the galaxy which span for millions and millions of years.
Sure, you can argue that someone other than the Reapers could have caused these extinctions, but then what happened to them? Where are they now?
Every one of these species vanished, with very little traces left behind of their existence. It’s as if someone wanted it all covered up.
- There were suit recordings in ME1. Which means that
everything Shepard encountered was recorded.
- It’s also possible that there were suit recording throughout ME2. Every encounter with Harbinger could have been recorded; possibly the entire events of Arrival too. Maybe the conversations with TIM too
- There’s Ilos. The last survivbing Protheins used the site and spent decades to research anything they possibly could about the Reapers and ways to prevent their next invasion. The reason Vigil shut down was because he lost power, but losing power doesn’t destroy a computer. Powering up should have given them access to everything. Or couldn’t they at least recover data from hardware? But if all this was impossible for some unknown reasons, Shepard still had suit recording and he downloaded data from Vigil before leaving.
- Cerberus News:
“Historians and astronomers alike are abuzz tonight over a new paper published by Dr. Amanda Kenson of the University of Arcturus. Her team claims that by testing the dust trapped in the gravity wells around a mass relay, and comparing its composition to that of dust clouds in the same system, scientists can create a timeline of when the relay passed through the dust. Her conclusion? "Only a small fraction of the mass effect relays date back 50,000 years," she writes, "The majority are far older, indicating they were created by a species predating even the Protheans." Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice met the information with skepticism: "While Dr. Kenson's methods appear sound, the asari tried a similar procedure centuries ago and discounted it. What civilization could have spanned the galaxy for not thousands, but millions of years? If this were the case, we should have found mountains of evidence of their passing. Where is this species now?”
- EDI made scans and analysis of the Collector base and the human Reaper. Those would be more than enough.
- EDI also made scans of the Collector ship and had access to the databanks. She downloaded a ton of data and it’s possible that some of it has lot of information about the Reapers. Collectors are also believed to be a myth so why not bring the evidence to the Council.
- Bring a few dead Collectors to the Council and let their bodies be examined too. They would be able to
connect them to the Protheins and see how they were repurposed to serve. Perhaps they could find more clues too.
- Shepard has the Reaper IFF. He could give a copy to the Council and let them have a look through the Omega 4 Relay.
- There are some evidences about the Reapers in Keiji’s greybox.
- We took over the Shadow Broker’s base in LotSB. There are evidences there.
- Computer scans and recordings gathered from Arrival.
- There’s
this.- I didn’t read Retribution but haven’t the turians come across any evidence about the Reapers since they raided many Cerberus facilities?
- Here’s Chorban’s e-mail that you can get in ME2:
From: ChorbanI hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign! You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years. Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us. Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me. -Chorban - Cerberus was able to find out the age the derelict Reaper so couldn’t the Council have done the same thing with Sovereign? And no, it’s not because of the Great Rift of Klendagon and TIM doesn’t say that the age is at
least 37 million years.
- Shepard’s visionms could have been shown to the asari Councilor if he connected his mind with her.
- There are many evidences about indoctrination.
Kirrahe’s men were indoctrinated, Benezia was, Saren too, Vigil confirmed it, Shiala was indoctrinated until she was exposed to the Thorian, the Cerberus crew inside the derelict Reaper, the people in Arrival, etc.
Rana Thanoptis talked about it and researched it for Saren.
Maelon mentioned Reaper indoctrination in Mordin's loyalty mission, which shows that the STG knows about the Reapers. There’s also something about indoctrination in Mordin’s dossier at the SB’s base.
- What about the Cerberus files aboard the Normandy?
- Legion and his geth believe in the Reapers since they had an encounter with Sovereign. Shepard could have at least asked Legion to get some evidences from them. And why didn’t Legion tell more than just one sentence when meeting the Council?
What government would follow the words of just one man?Saren, their former top Spectre, believed it. Benezia, a well-respected 1000 year old matriarch, also believed it. The geth believe it. Cerberus believes it. The Alliance believes it and they are preparing for war. The salarian STG believes it.
Shepard’s entire crew, which are composed of one of the best and most skillful people in the galaxy, also believe in the Reapers. I wish Samara could have had a talk with the asari Councilor because the word of a Justicar would go unquestioned.
In fact, there are many people throughout the galaxy who believe in the Reapers. It’s shown in both the books and the game that rumors about the Reapers are being spread everywhere.
The point I’m trying to make is that Shepard isn’t the only person who believes in the Reapers. So I would suggest you to stop saying that.
It’s possible that the Council does know about the Reapers but they don’t want to reveal anything to the public so they wouldn’t cause massive panic. - If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would be taking actions to prepare for the invasion. This would be a galaxy-wide operation. There would be a massive increase in building ships and planetary defenses, massive increase in recruitment and military training, massive investment in weapons research and technology, increase in partnership and cooperation with many, etc. Basically, the Council would be gathering and using every available resource to prepare for the coming war.
- The Council would know that no one else had as much encounter and experience with the Reapers as Shepard. Hell, the reason Cerberus even brought Shepard back from the dead was because they believed he was the
only person who could stop the Reapers.
He was gone for two years, and for all they know Shepard might have been investigating all that time and right now have very crucial information about the Reapers. Shepard is also willing to work with them, so isn’t it dumb that they decided to ignore him completely?
Shepard is with Cerberus, but Cerberus is also fighting against the Reapers, which are the much greater evil. Keeping Shepard out of anything related to combating the Reapers is foolish.
- Anderson can be made Councilor. If he’s a Councilor then he should know about the Reapers as much as the other three Councilors. He would also know about all the steps the Council is making to fight the Reapers. But during the meeting he tells Shepard that he believes him but that the other Councilors don’t.
- Or why didn’t we at least get something from… say, I dunno… how about the Shadow Broker’s base which we got in LotSB? At least there we should have been able to confirm this.
Why would the Council trust Shepard? He was gone for two years and then he suddenly shows up working with Cerberus. And let’s not forget how it all happens and what a clusterf@ck of a story writing it was.
Why did Shepard join Cerberus in the first place? Why?! Just… why?!
Shepard could have joined either the Aliance or the Council in order to investigate the colonies. Instead, he instantly joins… Cerberus?!
Shepard doesn’t even bother to at least check with those two valid and existing options and decides to join a
terrorist organization.
What meaning of logic is that?
Shepard can be a
sole survivor who witnessed his entire unit getting slaughtered on Akuze. He can know that Cerberus
tortured Toombs,
killed Kahoku and his unit,
turned an entire colony into husks, etc. but he still
willingly joins Cerberus.
Shepard barely questions TIM too. Sure, Shepard can perhaps grumble and make very cheap protests but in the end of every conversation he goes “Derp. Yes master.” and moves along.
You are never even given an option to leave and cut ties with Cerberus until the very end of the game. In one conversation, TIM says that Shepard is free to leave if he wants after investigating Freedom’s Progress but the player never gets that option.
Later, Shepard acquires the meeting with the Council. There, they expect him to explain himself… but Shepard doesn’t bother?!
And when the playerr gets an option to say something about Cerberus, the only option you’re given is to
defend Cerberus.
Then why do they still deny it when they are alone with Shepard behind secure channels? Why wouldn’t they? Shepard is working with Cerberus. Why are they gonna tell Shepard, someone who could potentially be an enemy, that they agree that the Reapers are coming and give Shepard information that they may not want Cerberus to know?Admitting that the Reapers exist =/= Working with Shepard
Cerberus already knows about the Reapers. The Council telling Shepard that they also believe in the Reapers would be nothing new or highly classified for Cerberus.
I heard others say that if the Council wants Shepard to stop working with Cerberus all they have to do is give him a reason to stop working for Cerberus. If Shepard felt that the Council believes in the Reapers then he would stop working with Cerberus. No, he wouldn’t. First of all, there is no way that Council could know this. They shouldn’t give classified information to Shepard just because he maaaay come work with them. - So it would be up to Shepard to prove that they can trust him. Which can be done
during this side mission. But alas, it’s never acknowledged at all.
- Shepard has a lot of classified information about Cerberus aboard the Normandy. Sadly, we’re not even given an option to share it with either the Council or the Alliance.
- Shepard also had a nasty history with Cerberus, especially with the sole survivor background. In ME1, Shepard killed many Cerberus operatives and destroyed a number of their operations. But no one even mentions this as well.
What if Shepard shows an audio recording of the Council admitting about the Reapers to the public and thus causing a massive panic? The Council can’t risk that. - Then wouldn’t the Council simply have Shepard checked for that? Aren’t the Council chambers supposed to be
secured?
- Nobody else had as much encounter and connection with the Reapers as Shepard. If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would know this. So, shouldn’t the Council also know that Shepard would have far better evidence to show the public, other than just a lousy audio recording?
Shepard carried out multiple operations against the Reapers, he had suit recording when talking to Sovereign, Benezia, Saren and Vigil. He could have showed those and any other evidences too.
Shepard also had at least one meeting with the Council where they all admit that they believe in the Reapers. Why didn’t he reveal anything to the public back then?
It’s been over two years and Shepard still didn’t do anything about it but the Council now suddenly thinks that Shepard would want it revealed to the public? I don’t see how that makes sense.
- Why doesn’t Councilor Anderson keep his mouth shut? The other Councilors aren’t worried when Anderson admits that he believes in the Reapers. Showing the recording of just one Councilor admitting about the Reapers would be enough for the public to start panic.
- Shepard wouldn’t even need to record anything from the Council because he can just make a completely false recording about anything. This is proven during Kasumi´s loyalty mission, where her fake recording even bypassed the voice scanner.
- Why would Shepard do that? I don’t understand; explain why would he want to cause a massive panic? Shepard was always determined to stop and fight the Reapers. Is it because he works with Cerberus? Even Cerberus is fighting against the Reapers and not even they would want to cause a massive panic when it comes to humanity.
It’s possible that the Council is ignorant and idiotic. People are known to be like that, they like to believe that nothing is wrong. Look at WW2, the Mongol horde, the first Constitution of USA, etc. Governments did very dumb things in the past. - The irony of your argument does not escape me.
- Sure, ignorance is a bliss and denial isn’t only a river in Egypt. I get it. But it doesn’t excuse the bad writing, railroading, Shepard being an idiot and completely tongue-tied.
Second video Suit recordings don’t prove anything. Really? I mean… really?!
What about the conversation with Shiala? We find out that Saren wanmted her and the Thorian dead because he didn’t want Shepard to understand the visions and to prevent him from following his steps. The visions are what brought Saren and Shepard to Ilos in the first place. Shiala also mentions something about Sovereign, indoctrination and why Benezia exactly joined up with Saren.
What about the entire conversation with Benezia, especially when she breaks out of indoctrination and gives us an OSD with the location of the Mu Relay? The conversation confirms the indoctrination and what Shiala said.
There’s a conversation with Rana Thanoptis where they talk about indoctrination and how she was researching it for Saren.
What about Saren when he himself admits everything?
What about the encounter with Sovereign from Saren’s personal quarters.
What about the part where Kirrahe’s men sided with the geth and tried to kill you?
And the biggest of all, what about the confrontation with Vigil, a 50 000 years old Prothean VI?
Vigil confirmed everything that happened throughout ME1. He confirmed the beacons, visions, Reapers, indoctrination, Sovereign, the Conduit, Saren’s “made up” story and everything else.
Vigil also tells you how Saren and Sovereign have planned to attack the Citadel and he even gives you a data file which helped against Sovereign.
What about
THIS? After that, we shoot Saren
again to make sure he’s dead but then…
he starts coming back from the dead… and
transforms into some kind of thing and says “I am Sovereign! And this station is MINE!”
Vigil says that he’s prothean. Just because something says that it’s Prothean doesn’t mean that it’s Prothean. The Council couldn’t verify it.
Riiiiight.
The site is 50 000 years old and the entire ruin is Prothean. Each galactic species studied countless other Prothean ruins so far. Do you think that they wouldn’t be able to compare something and see? There are also dead Protheins inside the sleper pods, they could just take DNA samples and match them with the ones they found from other ruins.
Yes, they can easily verify it
It would be like a judge saying that there’s a video tape of a suspect saying that he’s innocent -- so he must be innocent! It depends on the video, of course.
But do you remember what it took to prove Saren’s guilt to the Council?
Councilor Velarn: “Some quarian just showed an audio recording where Saren admits that he’s guilty! IT’S IRREFUTABLE!”
Saren saw Shepard’s reports. He knew that Shepard believed in the Reapers so he decided to keep on messing with him. That conversation with Sovereign on Virmire can be easily dismissed as a VI programmed by Saren to keep on fooling Shepard. So… Saren prepares a hologram “Reaper” VI in his very own personal quarters in a super top secret base. He does this so he could further mess around with Shepard… just in case, huh? Despite the very small chance that Shepard would be capable of finding the base and if he would personally manage to come all the way to Saren’s personal quarters. Is that what you’re saying?
Why Saren simply didn’t set up a bomb or some other kind of trap is never dwelled upon.
In the same room, Shepard found another beacon just like the one on Eden Prime for which Saren and the geth started a war. Why Saren was dumb enough to leave that in the room if he was expecting Shepard to come is also never questioned.
Convincing the Council to believe in the Reapers is the same as convincing them to believe in fairy tales and robot unicorns coming to kill us all. You know… I’ll admit that saying how an ancient alien race coming to kill us all may sound crazy, but please, you’re over exaggerating it to the absolute extreme.
Seriously, cut the hyperbole.
If I brought a magical robot unicorn who admitted everything in front of the Congress then people would think it’s a prank. They could dissect it and most would say that it’s Japanese. Do you know what the most advanced robots of today are? Do you know what they are capable of?
ASIMO can walk up stairs and run like a human.
HRP-4C can dance and sing, but not walk well. Stickeybot can climb walls but only for a few millimeters.
Bina can talk like a 4 year old human. BigDog can keep its balance on rough terrain and find it way around a rock or tree.
These are what I remember from an article which I read a few months back.
None of these can, say, single-handedly destroy most of the American army. Even the Japanese would be at awe if they saw it. In fact, many people were amazed when they saw ASIMO just running and climbing up the stairs.
Even if an advanced robot unicorn appeared I’m sure people would be at awe. And I doubt anyone would think it’s a prank if it destroyed most of the American military all by itself.
Use more imagination. What would it take for the robot unicorn to convince you to believe its story?
What if it cured every disease on the planet? What if it shared a huge amount of mind blowing knowledge that no one on Earth knows about? What if it taught us how to build space ships? Would anyone then still think that it’s all a joke?
And I find it kinda funny that you’ve used magic as an example. You know Clarke’s third law, right?
It would take a mountain of evidence in order for the Council to believe that the Reapers exist. There is more than just a mountain of evidence about the Reapers. Sovereign alone should fit as an example.
I really don’t understand how the Council can dismiss Sovereign, a Reaper itself, as evidence. If that didn’t convince them, then I honestly don’t know what else would.
Another thing that I don’t understand is what does the Council believe and what evidences do they have to support their own believes?
I’ll just leave this link.If the asari councilor mind melded with Shepard she would share thoughts with Shepard, thus giving access to every secret the Council had. That wouldn’t be a good idea, especially because Shepard is working with Cerberus.Er, Shepard isn’t an asari. He can’t control the mind meld.
I also remember Shepard mind melding with Liara, and neither of them shared anything else but the visions. They don’t mention anything about reading something else from each other’s minds. Same goes for Shiala when she gave Shepard the Cipher.
The Consort who works at the Citadel is an asari who knows many secrets. Yet she doesn’t mind pleasing her clients.
How about that?
Mind melding with the asari Councilor wouldn’t change anything because she wouldn’t be able to make anything out of it anyway. She would only a bunch of jumbled images like what we saw. It would be like seeing someone’s open mouth. Even Liara barely made sense out of it. Actually,Liara described the experience to be
vivid and very intense. She clearly saw that the Protheans were wiped by the Reapers, she said so herself.
You don’t need to be a Prothean expert to comprehend that you’re seeing a bunch of people getting butchered by Reapers.
According to Shiala and the codex, the visions would get clearer and more understandable as time passes. Well, it’s been some time since ME1.
There’s also this
side mission in ME2 where Shepard gets another vision by a Prothean artifact. We can assume that it made the visions even clearer.
Then there’s
this vision from Arrival too.
Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 15 septembre 2011 - 03:19 .
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