223 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

One thing also is Sovereign's behavior at the battle of the Citadel. Why would the Geth have their most advanced and powerful warship head to the Citadel instead of just assisting the Geth fleet with curbstomping the council fleet. You can argue that the Geth did it to shut down the relay system (as that happend), but how would the Geth even know that it was possible to do so? How would Geth and Saren even know that there was a Citadel master control that could be used to lock the Citadel down?

[Someone With Mass]

Lizardviking wrote...

One thing also is Sovereign's behavior at the battle of the Citadel. Why would the Geth have their most advanced and powerful warship head to the Citadel instead of just assisting the Geth fleet with curbstomping the council fleet. You can argue that the Geth did it to shut down the relay system (as that happend), but how would the Geth even know that it was possible to do so? How would Geth and Saren even know that there was a Citadel master control that could be used to lock the Citadel down?

They could've found schematics on Ilos or something like it.

It's not really a secret that the Citadel station has many hidden functions either.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They could've found schematics on Ilos or something like it

That is a possibly explaination.

[CHawk15]

I can see the council denying the existence of the Reapers publically to keep order in the galaxy, that makes sense because telling the galaxy that an technologically advanced society is coming to wipe them out and there maybe nothing we can do about it would cause a mass panic.  Secondly, they don't want to believe this is happening now and maybe the Reapers won't show up while the current Council is still in office.  I think this was the stance in ME 1 right up to the point that Saren attacked the Citadel. 

For ME2, I think that the council may believe that the results from the Battle of the Citadel will significantly delay the Reapers return and still don't want to believe the truth, even though it is right in front of them.  When you're talking about taking steps as drastic as proposed by Shepard and Anderson, the council has to be sure and from the council's perspective, there isn't enough hard evidence to be sure.  There is enough to suggest that this is a definite possibility, but not enough to be sure enough to commit all of the resources of the galaxy to prepare for the Reapers.  There is also the possibility that there is some indoctination happening on the Citadel that happens over a longer period of time, which would be why Anderson shown signs of it yet.  I've only got 1 playthrough where the council is dead and Anderson serves on the new council. 

Can't wait for ME3 to have some answers, too bad it's still 6 months away. 

[Last Vizard]

Savber100 wrote...

There's an issue about the Council denying the Reapers? 

We (as in Americans) had a government that pretended for years that Iraq had WMD. We overlooked the the concentration camps despite plain evidence. We made up crap to start the Vietnam War.

Governments are stupid.

Sure it might be a cliche but it's hardly a total leap in logic to see the Council bury their heads in the sand just as a ineffectual government usually is.

lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

[azerSheppard]

Last Vizard wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

There's an issue about the Council denying the Reapers? 

We (as in Americans) had a government that pretended for years that Iraq had WMD. We overlooked the the concentration camps despite plain evidence. We made up crap to start the Vietnam War.

Governments are stupid.

Sure it might be a cliche but it's hardly a total leap in logic to see the Council bury their heads in the sand just as a ineffectual government usually is.

lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Now this topic has become cancer.

[didymos1120]

Last Vizard wrote...


lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Oh, lovely. A Truther.

[Last Vizard]

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...


lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Oh, lovely. A Truther.

"ah yes" air quotes and dismissal

[AlexXIV]

I understand that the council denies the existance of Reapers to the public, but to Shepard? I am pretty sure the Council knows that the Reapers exist. And I am pretty sure they know that Shepard knows. So what's the point of lying to Shepard? I don't know, but I guess I don't need to understand everything.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 septembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[azerSheppard]

Last Vizard wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...


lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Oh, lovely. A Truther.

"ah yes" air quotes and dismissal

Moonlanding never happened, the Lizirdians form Kravh 9 moved into the ilimunati after Adam let them take control of the future, then they faked the landing and send the recording the US in order to give them an upperhand on China for atleast another century.
Meanwhile the Locust realised the Lambent where humans who ate too much indian and mexican food, after this they formed an alliance with the Kravh 9 and sent ME technology to the earliest life forms in the universe: ponies.

They became the horror knows as, the REAPERS.

Cue TPC song.

[Sajuro]

azerSheppard wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...


lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Oh, lovely. A Truther.

"ah yes" air quotes and dismissal

Moonlanding never happened, the Lizirdians form Kravh 9 moved into the ilimunati after Adam let them take control of the future, then they faked the landing and send the recording the US in order to give them an upperhand on China for atleast another century.
Meanwhile the Locust realised the Lambent where humans who ate too much indian and mexican food, after this they formed an alliance with the Kravh 9 and sent ME technology to the earliest life forms in the universe: ponies.

They became the horror knows as, the REAPERS.

Cue TPC song.

you people are so silly, everyone knows its the pixies behind your eyebrows that control the world also it was a bunch of angry terrorists

[AlexXIV]

Sajuro wrote...

azerSheppard wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...


lied about a couple of tall structures that were destroyed using controled demolition methods while people were still inside shortly after being hit by military aircraft.... i could go on but we all know the world is still sleeping.

Oh, lovely. A Truther.

"ah yes" air quotes and dismissal

Moonlanding never happened, the Lizirdians form Kravh 9 moved into the ilimunati after Adam let them take control of the future, then they faked the landing and send the recording the US in order to give them an upperhand on China for atleast another century.
Meanwhile the Locust realised the Lambent where humans who ate too much indian and mexican food, after this they formed an alliance with the Kravh 9 and sent ME technology to the earliest life forms in the universe: ponies.

They became the horror knows as, the REAPERS.

Cue TPC song.

you people are so silly, everyone knows its the pixies behind your eyebrows that control the world also it was a bunch of angry terrorists

But the CIA (or FBI? or both?) let terrorists in and even let them make their pilot licence. Despite the fact that they were suspects to begin with. I don't understand how they could sleep like this, really. I mean they should have been observed on every step they do.

[eye basher]

To bad that in ME3 we find out that everyone is just getting there ass kicked and that there are no ''secret plans to take out the reapers'' that the Coucil was just once again hiding their head in the sand and hoping that the whole problem would just blow over.

[Bogsnot1]

AlexXIV wrote...

I understand that the council denies the existance of Reapers to the public, but to Shepard? I am pretty sure the Council knows that the Reapers exist. And I am pretty sure they know that Shepard knows. So what's the point of lying to Shepard? I don't know, but I guess I don't need to understand everything.

Dont forget that Shepard had 2 untrusted and unknown people in his/her company when the Council meeting took place. Entirely possible the Councils denial of the Reapers (and any subsequent plan for dealing with them) was in line with not letting classified information out to people without sufficient clearance.
 Add to this TIM's deliberate leaking of information stating that Shep is working for Cerberus, and the Council has every right to be tight lipped with what they know.

[Arokel]

Savber100 wrote...

There's an issue about the Council denying the Reapers? 

We (as in Americans) had a government that pretended for years that Iraq had WMD. We overlooked the the concentration camps despite plain evidence. We made up crap to start the Vietnam War.

Governments are stupid.

Sure it might be a cliche but it's hardly a total leap in logic to see the Council bury their heads in the sand just as a ineffectual government usually is.

Well Saddam did have WMD's technically.  He had many chemical weapons and those are considered a WMD I believe.  Saddam frequently gassed whole towns who were angry.

But lets avoid IRL politics, it tends to get messy.

But it does make sense fromt their POV.  Imagine if someone said that India (i chose a country randomly) was building an army of super soldier who were bulletproof.

Modifié par Arokel, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Il Divo]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

There is more than just a mountain of evidence about the Reapers. Sovereign alone should fit as an example.
I really don’t understand how the Council can dismiss Sovereign, a Reaper itself, as evidence. If that didn’t convince them, then I honestly don’t know what else would.
 
Another thing that I don’t understand is what does the Council believe and what evidences do they have to support their own believes?

Aside from camera recordings (which both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 conveniently choose to ignore), plot-wise there is very little to support the idea that Sovereign is a Reaper. Shepard alone spoke to Sovereign. From the Council's perspective, "Reaper" and "advanced space ship" are not synonymous. It also doesn't help that the mythos surrounding the Reapers as having created the Citadel, murdered the Protheans, manipulated organic evolution, etc, makes the idea even less credible, akin to positing that we are all currently in the Matrix.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 septembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Iakus]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I understand that the council denies the existance of Reapers to the public, but to Shepard? I am pretty sure the Council knows that the Reapers exist. And I am pretty sure they know that Shepard knows. So what's the point of lying to Shepard? I don't know, but I guess I don't need to understand everything.

Dont forget that Shepard had 2 untrusted and unknown people in his/her company when the Council meeting took place. Entirely possible the Councils denial of the Reapers (and any subsequent plan for dealing with them) was in line with not letting classified information out to people without sufficient clearance.
 Add to this TIM's deliberate leaking of information stating that Shep is working for Cerberus, and the Council has every right to be tight lipped with what they know.

Depends on who you bring along.  Half of Sep's squad are pretty trustworthy.  I mean, we have

Two other heroes of the Citadel, Garrus and Tali
A retired STG who still has a security clearance, Mordin
An asari justicar: Samara
Shepard's "trophybot" Legion, who not really a geth, right?  

Now I could understand if the Council thought that with Sovereign's death, the Reaper threat is ended, since there's no one left to open the dark space relay

I could also understand if they don't want to talk to Shepard about the Reapers because of his current Cerberus ties.

But I can't see denying the existence of the Reapers to the very person who warned them about the Reapers in the first place.  Especially when one of their own outright says "I believe you"


Edit:  at the risk of opening a huge can of worms, armor suits do have recording capabilities:  

www.youtube.com/watch

about 3:30 in

Modifié par iakus, 16 septembre 2011 - 07:21 .

[capn233]

Eh, why should they be convinced. You could not convince them at all during ME1. The closest is at the very end. You can assume that they are going along with Shepard not only because he just saved them, but also he probably reported that all the evidence they needed was Vigil. You can imagine them giving him the benefit of the doubt until they investigated it themselves.

The remains of Sovereign are somewhat problematic. The dialogue is that not much was recovered. Why was that? We know that the turians partially reverse engineered his armaments. Perhaps the various intelligence organizations managed to get all the important bits and didn't reveal their findings. Or did the Keepers have a hand in destroying components that would have been a smoking gun? The people are always amazed at what the Keepers are able to do. Why wouldn't you think they had a hand in destroying evidence?

[SpiffySquee]

First of all... wow, I thought this was dead and gone! Secondly, nice dedication AwesomeEffect2. I respect people like you a lot more than people who just go "NU-UH!"

And now to make this post even longer....


[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

First video
 
How obviously diferent are Sovereign and the geth ships? Show me the short list of what the differences are between the two ships.
 
I can ask you to make a list of the similarities between the two. Is there anything you can add there?
 
- Sovereign and the geth are completely alien to each other. There must be countless differences.
 
- Sovereign, as a Reaper, is far more advanced and powerful than the geth. Think of it this way, can you tell the difference between an 18th century pistol and a modern day pistol? A 19th century car and a modern day car? A 16th century warship and a modern battleship? A WW1 milltary tank and a modern military tank?
It should be painfully obvious how different they are.
 
- Reapers are made by melting and processing millions and millions of people into goo. The geth, on the other hand, are purely synthetic. EDI confirmed that the Reapers are a combination of both organic and synthetic material. When analyzing Sovereign’s remains, didn’t anyone at least find something organic about it?[/quote]

In order for this to be accurate, we would need a general understanding of how advanced the geth are. We don't. Even in ME2 the council races have a very limited understanding of the geth and what they are capable of. Your analogy of the pistols is not very good because it assumes we know the geth are only capable of making 18th century pistols. We would have to have a good idea of the limits of geth tech and we don't.

The council could simply assume that Sovy was a more advanced creation of the geth. The quiarians fly ships that are 300 years old and are probably obsolete compared to some of their newer ships. They are, however, still quarian ships. There is no reason why the Geth do not do the same.

Secondly, no mention of Sovy having organic parts was ever mentioned. This means that what ever pieces of Sovy were left did not contain any organic compounds, so that argument is pointless.

It is a far more likely scenario than Sovy being from a mythical race of machines sent to destroy everyone.

[quote]
For all we know, the geth could have copied Sovereign’s design after they turned heretic and made modifications to their ships to be more like Sovereigns.
 
Such as?
Did they process millions of organics into goo? No.
 
Sovereign was worshipped as a god. Why would the geth copy what they worship and why would Sovereign allow itself to be studied?
 
Legion confirmd that the geth don’t have the technology to build such a powerful ship like Sovereign. The geth ships don’t even have Thanix cannons and they don’t look like cuttlefish.
 
Legion never makes any mention about it too. He was able to guide Shepard to and throughout the Heretic base without problems, answaering and explaining every question Shepard asked about the station and the geth. He never makes any note of something being different except when he found out that the Heretics were spying on his people.
 
And check this video. We see how a ship of the True geth looks like. It doesn’t look different from the Heretics. Sadly, the quality isn’t really the best.[/quote]

I did not say they could build reapers. I simply said it is not impossible for them to upgrade some of their systems with reaper tech. Sovy does not have to let them study him. He can simply give them any upgrades he desires them to have.

Having said that, it is a bit of a weak argument on my account. the point was to show that you cannot prove that the council should have been able to tell a clear difference between the two races since they had no idea what the geth had in the first place. Until you can show that the Council races had detailed specs of what a geth ship was supposed to be, or at least show me two detailed schematics of sovy and a geth ship that clearly shows amazing differences, you cannot say that they could tell the two apart.

The burden of proof is on you to disprove the story, not the other way around. You have to show undeniable evidence that the Council could clearly tell the two apart. You cannot.

[quote]
Let me give you an example, let’s say ships from England and ships from China back in the 16th century decide to attack the Native Americans of North America. Now, they‘re both going to have ships very different make, very different materials, very different designs. But do you think the Native Americans are gonna think they are two separate people? No, of course not! Not from one battle. They are just gonna assume that the same person make two types of ships.

This is a very, VERY bad analogy.

I’ll just say that I’m pretty sure we have far more knowledge, science and technology at our disposal then Indians, especially in the 22nd century with other multiple space-faring aliens.  [/quote]

Your point being? I was illustrating a point, not claiming the two were identical. It does not matter how advanced we are, the Geth and the Reapers are both Alien to the council races. The point of the analogy was to demonstrate that if you have no knowledge of two separate cultures that are attacking you at the same time, it is incredibly difficult to determine that they are not in fact the same culture.

Again, the burden of proof is on you to show that the council should have been able to tell them apart.

[quote]
Shepard couldn’t download data from Vigil because the omni-tool wouldn’t have interface for Prothein data. The Protheins communicated telepathically, remember? The reason Shepard and his companion were able to communicate with Vigil was because Vigil adapted himself to match their language.
When Vigil shut down, that system shut down with him. There’s nothing the Council could have gotten from him.
But if you can somehow prove that they were able to get all this information from Vigil, I’ll say it’s a very valid argument.

Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.[/quote]

Shepard says the same thing even if you do not have her. "Grab that data file"

He is referring to the override codes, not information about the reapers. Other wise, some mention of "Hey I have a data file on the reapers" would have been made at some later point.

[quote]
Cerberus wasn’t gonna share the derelict Reaper to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard also destroyed it so he couldn’t show it to the Council.

Shepard collects some research and recordings from the derelict Reaper. He could have shared them with the Council.

I wish there was an option to scan anything with your omni-tool as much as possible and then send it to the Council but the game doesn’t allow it.[/quote]

Again, you assume that a few recording of Cerberus agents going crazy is enough to convince the council of a fairy tale. The council already studied the pieces of Sovy and concluded he was geth. What makes you think a few scans of the same type of ship would make any difference? there was nothing on the Reaper that screamed out, "Hey! I'm a reaper!"

[quote]
By the end of Arrival, Shepard knows that the Alliance already knows about the Reapers so what’s the point in convincing the Council?

Do I really have to answer this?

Do you think that the Alliance can stop the Reapers all by themselves?[/quote]

What? you are completely missing the point. The alliance would have a much greater chance of convincing the council than Shepard ever would. If Shep believes the Alliance knows, then he would let them worry about convincing the council. In addition, Arrival happens after the events of ME2 (confirmed by more than one developer). this means we do not know if the council is still denying it or if the Alliance has convinced them other wise.

[quote]
What other evidences does the Council have as far as evidence goes except for Shepard’s words? None!

- Everyone knows that the Protheins went extinct but don’t know how or why. An entire advanced species which had an empire stretched across the whole galaxy just simply disappeared! Doesn’t that raise any red flags?
 
What about these:
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Helyme
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Eingana
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Armeni
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Etamis
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Atahil
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Joab
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Aphras
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Bothros
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Tosal_Nym
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Gaelon
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Klendagon
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Vecchio
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Gamayun
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Junthor
 
I think there are more planets which I could add but I won’t bother finding them.
 
The Protheins aren’t the only spacefaring species known to exist. There were other mass extinctions around the galaxy which span for millions and millions of years.
Sure, you can argue that someone other than the Reapers could have caused these extinctions, but then what happened to them? Where are they now?
Every one of these species vanished, with very little traces left behind of their existence. It’s as if someone wanted it all covered up.[/quote]

What is your point here? Would it raise red flags? Maybe among historians. Would it cause governments to believe mythical machines are coming to kill them? Hardly.

You know what they would say? They would say, "that's an interesting theory... show me proof that it was all caused by giant machines."
 
[quote]
- There were suit recordings in ME1. Which means that everything Shepard encountered was recorded.
 
- It’s also possible that there were suit recording throughout ME2. Every encounter with Harbinger could have been recorded; possibly the entire events of Arrival too. Maybe the conversations with TIM too 
 
- There’s Ilos. The last survivbing Protheins used the site and spent decades to research anything they possibly could about the Reapers and ways to prevent their next invasion. The reason Vigil shut down was because he lost power, but losing power doesn’t destroy a computer. Powering up should have given them access to everything. Or couldn’t they at least recover data from hardware? But if all this was impossible for some unknown reasons, Shepard still had suit recording and he downloaded data from Vigil before leaving.[/quote]

And how do you "power up" a prothean computer? Do you know? Because the council sure didn't. They stated they went to Illos and could not get anything out of Vigil. If you think they went there pokes him, saw nothing happened, and just went home then you are being silly. they investigated Illos. They tried to talk to Vigil. they could not. Again, you would have to show that they should have been able to, which you can't.
 
 [quote]
- Cerberus News:
“Historians and astronomers alike are abuzz tonight over a new paper published by Dr. Amanda Kenson of the University of Arcturus. Her team claims that by testing the dust trapped in the gravity wells around a mass relay, and comparing its composition to that of dust clouds in the same system, scientists can create a timeline of when the relay passed through the dust. Her conclusion? "Only a small fraction of the mass effect relays date back 50,000 years," she writes, "The majority are far older, indicating they were created by a species predating even the Protheans." Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice met the information with skepticism: "While Dr. Kenson's methods appear sound, the asari tried a similar procedure centuries ago and discounted it. What civilization could have spanned the galaxy for not thousands, but millions of years? If this were the case, we should have found mountains of evidence of their passing. Where is this species now?”[/quote]

Umm… this actually hurts your case. Even though WE know she is right, most people have discounted her findings. 
 
[quote]
 - EDI made scans and analysis of the Collector base and the human Reaper. Those would be more than enough. [/quote]

True enough, but since the game ended there, we have no idea how this was or was not used to influence the council.
 
[quote]
- EDI also made scans of the Collector ship and had access to the databanks. She downloaded a ton of data and it’s possible that some of it has lot of information about the Reapers. Collectors are also believed to be a myth so why not bring the evidence to the Council.[/quote]

Look at the bold part. Since nothing was ever said about it, we cannot just assume this is true. You would have to show me there WAS reaper data before you can use this argument.

[quote]
- Bring a few dead Collectors to the Council and let their bodies be examined too. They would be able to connect them to the Protheins and see how they were repurposed to serve. Perhaps they could find more clues too.[/quote]
And perhaps they could not find more clues. Again, for this to be an argument you would have to show that they DID find more clues.
 [quote]
- Shepard has the Reaper IFF. He could give a copy to the Council and let them have a look through the Omega 4 Relay.[/quote]
Again, since the game ended after the suicide mission, we have no idea if this happened or not. All arguments of the council not believing in the reapers must be made prior to the SM since we have no idea what took place between the SM and arrival, or the Councils stance at the time of arrival.
 
[quote]
- There are some evidences about the Reapers in Keiji’s greybox.[/quote]
As far as I know, we have yet o decode it, so at he moment, it is still hidden in Keiji’s memories. We don’t know what we have so we can’t use this as evidence.

[quote]
- We took over the Shadow Broker’s base in LotSB. There are evidences there.[/quote]
Liara only stated that the Shadow Broker knew about he reapers. We have no idea how, or how solid the evidence is. For al we know it could simply be circumstantial evidence that would not be enough for the council. I agree, that it raises some eye brows, but until we know what information the SB had we have no idea if it would be useful to persuade the council with.
 
[quote]
- Computer scans and recordings gathered from Arrival. [/quote]
Again, Arrival takes place after ME2 and we have no idea what Shepard did with the information gathered during the mission.
 
[quote]
- There’s this.[/quote]
And again, we have no idea what was done with this data since the game ended.

[quote]
- I didn’t read Retribution but haven’t the turians come across any evidence about the Reapers since they raided many Cerberus facilities?
 [/quote]
Niether have I, but this is pure speculation and not any sort of evidence what so ever
[quote]
- Here’s Chorban’s e-mail that you can get in ME2:
 
From: Chorban
I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Sovereign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!
 
You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheans! It may have been made by something far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.
 
Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.
 
Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.
 
-Chorban [/quote]
He said it himself, no one will listen to him. It makes sense that the crazy ideas of one scientist (we know he is not crazy, but they would think he is) would not even reach the council. After all, no one has ever scanned a Keeper.  The only way this would be of use is if Shepard brought he email before the council, convinced them to listen to Chorban and Chorban was able to demonstrate his scanner being accurate. I agree, that this might have some potential (assuming all of that can be achieved)
 
[quote]
- Cerberus was able to find out the age the derelict Reaper so couldn’t the Council have done the same thing with Sovereign? And no, it’s not because of the Great Rift of Klendagon and TIM doesn’t say that the age is at least 37 million years.[/quote]
How do you know it wasn’t because of the Great Rift? If he could figure out when the rift was made, he knows when the reaper was killed. I don’t think TIM was suggesting the Reaper was exactly 37 million years old, but simply that it was killed 37 million years ago.
 
[quote]
- Shepard’s visionms could have been shown to the asari Councilor if he connected his mind with her.
 [/quote]
I’ll cover this later

[quote]
- There are many evidences about indoctrination.
Kirrahe’s men were indoctrinated, Benezia was, Saren too, Vigil confirmed it, Shiala was indoctrinated until she was exposed to the Thorian, the Cerberus crew inside the derelict Reaper, the people in Arrival, etc.
Rana Thanoptis talked about it and researched it for Saren.
Maelon mentioned Reaper indoctrination in Mordin's loyalty mission, which shows that the STG knows about the Reapers. There’s also something about indoctrination in Mordin’s dossier at the SB’s base.[/quote]
Indoctrination sure, but with the except of one sentence spoken by Maelon, there is no evidence that it is connected to reapers. It is interesting that Maelon said that, but again, we have no idea how he knows, so you cannot assume STG knows. He was quoting Mordin’s paper. It is possible that Mordin believed in the Reapers, but it does not mean he had any real evidence.  You would have to show HOW mordin knows this before you can say the council should consider this evidence and not simple speculation.  You could prove that Indoctrination exists, but not that Reapers did it.
 
[quote]
- What about the Cerberus files aboard the Normandy?[/quote]
What about them? Did you see any files on the Normandy with reaper evidence? I sure didn’t.
 
[quote]
- Legion and his geth believe in the Reapers since they had an encounter with Sovereign. Shepard could have at least asked Legion to get some evidences from them. And why didn’t Legion tell more than just one sentence when meeting the Council?[/quote]
Assuming you actually had Legion? He is a geth. Why would the council believe anything he says. In order to prove such things, the Geth would have to show detailed schematics of their ships so a comparison can be made. I doubt the Geth want to give the Council sensitive information like that.
 
There is not a single piece of solid evidence in this entire list. It is all speculation, possible connections, or information received at he end of the game so we have no idea what has been done with it. Nothing in this list  clearly points to Reapers, and thus, there is no mountain of evidence.
[quote]
What government would follow the words of just one man?

Saren, their former top Spectre, believed it. Benezia, a well-respected 1000 year old matriarch, also believed it. [/quote]
The council believe Saren is using it to have his way with the geth and Shepard. They do not think he actually believes in the Reapers.
[quote] The geth believe it.[/quote]
Again, the council stated it is probable that Saren used the story of Reapers to manipulate the geth.
[quote] Cerberus believes it. [/quote]
And the Council knows this how? And they would believe anything Cerberus says why?

[quote]The Alliance believes it and they are preparing for war.[/quote]
At the end of the game. When we find out he alliance believe it we have no way of seeing if they have convinced the council or not. We have no idea if their stance has changed or not. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.
[quote]The salarian STG believes it.[/quote]
Prove it.
[quote]Shepard’s entire crew, which are composed of one of the best and most skillful people in the galaxy, also believe in the Reapers. I wish Samara could have had a talk with the asari Councilor because the word of a Justicar would go unquestioned.[/quote]
When did she ever say she believed in the reapers? She believed in the collectors, that is all. In fact, most of the crew in ME2 are either Cerberus, or taking Shepard at his word that hey exist.
[quote]
In fact, there are many people throughout the galaxy who believe in the Reapers. It’s shown in both the books and the game that rumors about the Reapers are being spread everywhere.[/quote]
So…. Governments should base policy decisions on rumors now? A lot of people believe 2012 is the end of the world… perhaps the government should start telling everyone to prepare for it. It does not matter if people believe it if they have no evidence to back it up.
 
[quote]
The point I’m trying to make is that Shepard isn’t the only person who believes in the Reapers. So I would suggest you to stop saying that.[/quote]
I’m sorry, could you point out where I said Shepard was the only person who believed in the Reapers? You can’t? Oh… that must be because I never said that. You should pay more attention to what I am or am not saying.

[quote]
It’s possible that the Council does know about the Reapers but they don’t want to reveal anything to the public so they wouldn’t cause massive panic.
 
- If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would be taking actions to prepare for the invasion. This would be a galaxy-wide operation. There would be a massive increase in building ships and planetary defenses, massive increase in recruitment and military training, massive investment in weapons research and technology, increase in partnership and cooperation with many, etc. Basically, the Council would be gathering and using every available resource to prepare for the coming war. [/quote]
Possibly. Or they could believe the reapers exist but not be willing to publicly admit with out proper evidence. They could be scrambling to gather enough evidence to convince the other races of the attack, or they could be make preparations in secret to avoid panic. There are a lot of things they COULD be doing, so you should not assume that there is only one possible course of action.

[quote]
- The Council would know that no one else had as much encounter and experience with the Reapers as Shepard. Hell, the reason Cerberus even brought Shepard back from the dead was because they believed he was the only person who could stop the Reapers.
He was gone for two years, and for all they know Shepard might have been investigating all that time and right now have very crucial information about the Reapers. Shepard is also willing to work with them, so isn’t it dumb that they decided to ignore him completely?
Shepard is with Cerberus, but Cerberus is also fighting against the Reapers, which are the much greater evil. Keeping Shepard out of anything related to combating the Reapers is foolish. [/quote]
Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the council.  Shepard now works for them. Why would they tell any sensitive information? Shepard already told them everything he knew. Why would they risk tipping their hand to Cerberus when they feel Shepard has already told them everything he knows? People are meta-gaming too much.  We know the Reapers are coming and are bad Mamma Jammas and that everyone has to work together, so we think anyone who does not feel that way is stupid. The council may feel they can handle the reapers on their own. In any case, you do not give sensitive information to enimies. That is rule number 1.
 
[quote]
- Anderson can be made Councilor. If he’s a Councilor then he should know about the Reapers as much as the other three Councilors. He would also know about all the steps the Council is making to fight the Reapers. But during the meeting he tells Shepard that he believes him but that the other Councilors don’t.[/quote]
He also did not tell Shepard about the VS on Horizon. Anderson is not at liberty to say anything he wants.
 [quote]
- Or why didn’t we at least get something from… say, I dunno… how about the Shadow Broker’s base which we got in LotSB? At least there we should have been able to confirm this. [/quote]
Prove it. Show me this smoking gun, or stop using this argument. We have no idea if the shadow Broker has any solid evidence on the Reapers.
 
[quote]
Why would the Council trust Shepard? He was gone for two years and then he suddenly shows up working with Cerberus.
 
And let’s not forget how it all happens and what a clusterf@ck of a story writing it was.
 
Why did Shepard join Cerberus in the first place? Why?! Just… why?!
 
Shepard could have joined either the Aliance or the Council in order to investigate the colonies. Instead, he instantly joins… Cerberus?!
Shepard doesn’t even bother to at least check with those two valid and existing options and decides to join a terrorist organization.
What meaning of logic is that?
 
Shepard can be a sole survivor who witnessed his entire unit getting slaughtered on Akuze. He can know that Cerberus tortured Toombs, killed Kahoku and his unit, turned an entire colony into husks, etc. but he still willingly joins Cerberus.
 
Shepard barely questions TIM too. Sure, Shepard can perhaps grumble and make very cheap protests but in the end of every conversation he goes “Derp. Yes master.” and moves along.
 
You are never even given an option to leave and cut ties with Cerberus until the very end of the game. In one conversation, TIM says that Shepard is free to leave if he wants after investigating Freedom’s Progress but the player never gets that option.
 
Later, Shepard acquires the meeting with the Council. There, they expect him to explain himself… but Shepard doesn’t bother?!
And when the playerr gets an option to say something about Cerberus, the only option you’re given is to defend Cerberus.[/quote]
So instead of arguing why the council should trust a man working for Cerberus, you go off on a tangent about something completely unrelated? classy…
 
[quote]
I heard others say that if the Council wants Shepard to stop working with Cerberus all they have to do is give him a reason to stop working for Cerberus. If Shepard felt that the Council believes in the Reapers then he would stop working with Cerberus. No, he wouldn’t. First of all, there is no way that Council could know this. They shouldn’t give classified information to Shepard just because he maaaay come work with them.
 
- So it would be up to Shepard to prove that they can trust him. Which can be done during this side mission. But alas, it’s never acknowledged at all.
 
- Shepard has a lot of classified information about Cerberus aboard the Normandy. Sadly, we’re not even given an option to share it with either the Council or the Alliance.
 
- Shepard also had a nasty history with Cerberus, especially with the sole survivor background. In ME1, Shepard killed many Cerberus operatives and destroyed a number of their operations. But no one even mentions this as well.
[/quote]
Going off topic again… This is not even arguing my statement.
[quote]
What if Shepard shows an audio recording of the Council admitting about the Reapers to the public and thus causing a massive panic? The Council can’t risk that.
 
- Then wouldn’t the Council simply have Shepard checked for that? Aren’t the Council chambers supposed to be secured?[/quote]
Explain to me why they should even take the risk? What good does it do them to let Shepard know?

[quote]
- Nobody else had as much encounter and connection with the Reapers as Shepard. If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would know this. So, shouldn’t the Council also know that Shepard would have far better evidence to show the public, other than just a lousy audio recording?
Shepard carried out multiple operations against the Reapers, he had suit recording when talking to Sovereign, Benezia, Saren and Vigil. He could have showed those and any other evidences too.
Shepard also had at least one meeting with the Council where they all admit that they believe in the Reapers. Why didn’t he reveal anything to the public back then?
It’s been over two years and Shepard still didn’t do anything about it but the Council now suddenly thinks that Shepard would want it revealed to the public? I don’t see how that makes sense. [/quote]
They didn’t think Shep would work for Cerberus either. Now they don’t trust him. How does that not make sense?
 
[quote]
- Why doesn’t Councilor Anderson keep his mouth shut? The other Councilors aren’t worried when Anderson admits that he believes in the Reapers. Showing the recording of just one Councilor admitting about the Reapers would be enough for the public to start panic.[/quote]
Anderson does a lot of things the council does not like. Perhaps this is one of them.
[quote]
- Shepard wouldn’t even need to record anything from the Council because he can just make a completely false recording about anything. This is proven during Kasumi´s loyalty mission, where her fake recording even bypassed the voice scanner.[/quote]
What is the logic here? Why should we bother trying to maintain secrets if someone could possibly expose them anyway? That is not a very good mindset to have.
 
[quote]
- Why would Shepard do that? I don’t understand; explain why would he want to cause a massive panic? Shepard was always determined to stop and fight the Reapers. Is it because he works with Cerberus? Even Cerberus is fighting against the Reapers and not even they would want to cause a massive panic when it comes to humanity.
[/quote]

You’re meta-gaming again. How does the council know Cerberus really wants to fight he reapers? How do they know Cerberus would not want to expose this in order to discredit the Council? Why bother taking the risk when telling Shepard they agree with him does not gain them anything. What does telling shepard do? Make him feel better?

[quote]
It’s possible that the Council is ignorant and idiotic. People are known to be like that, they like to believe that nothing is wrong. Look at WW2, the Mongol horde, the first Constitution of USA, etc. Governments did very dumb things in the past.
 
- The irony of your argument does not escape me.[/quote]

Really? How do you catch something that is not there? I do not claim the council is full of geniuses, only that the idea they do not believe in the reapers is believable. You seem to think I said the Council was smart for not believing in the Reapers. Again, you should pay more attention to what I am actually saying.
 
[quote]
- Sure, ignorance is a bliss and denial isn’t only a river in Egypt. I get it. But it doesn’t excuse the bad writing, railroading, Shepard being an idiot and completely tongue-tied.[/quote]

When did we start talking about railroading and Shepard being tongue tied… oh wait… you’re just going off topic again.
 
[quote]
Second video
 
Suit recordings don’t prove anything.

Really? I mean… really?![/quote]

Yes, really really
 
[quote]
What about the conversation with Shiala? We find out that Saren wanted her and the Thorian dead because he didn’t want Shepard to understand the visions and to prevent him from following his steps. The visions are what brought Saren and Shepard to Ilos in the first place. Shiala also mentions something about Sovereign, indoctrination and why Benezia exactly joined up with Saren.
 
What about the entire conversation with Benezia, especially when she breaks out of indoctrination and gives us an OSD with the location of the Mu Relay? The conversation confirms the indoctrination and what Shiala said.
 
There’s a conversation with Rana Thanoptis where they talk about indoctrination and how she was researching it for Saren.
 
What about Saren when he himself admits everything?
 
What about the encounter with Sovereign from Saren’s personal quarters.[/quote]

So what? At most, this would simply prove that Saren believes it.  You need proof that the reapers exist. Not proof that Saren thinks they do. Not proof that Shepard thinks they do, but proof that they REALLY do. The idea that two people went crazy and managed to convince other to go along for the ride, is far more believable then giant machines actually coming to kill everyone.
I can show you proof all day long that someone believes 2012 is coming. That does not mean that it is.
 
[quote]
What about the part where Kirrahe’s men sided with the geth and tried to kill you?[/quote]

It proves they were brainwashed, nothing more.
 
[quote]
And the biggest of all, what about the confrontation with Vigil, a 50 000 years old Prothean VI?
Vigil confirmed everything that happened throughout ME1. He confirmed the beacons, visions, Reapers,  indoctrination, Sovereign, the Conduit, Saren’s “made up” story and everything else.
 
Vigil also tells you how Saren and Sovereign have planned to attack the Citadel and he even gives you a data file which helped against Sovereign.[/quote]

A video tape of one computer saying Reapers exist does not make it so. As I said in the video, it is enough to make them curious and investigate. They did. They found nothing. Again, Show me proof tha they exist, not proof that some people/computers think they do.

How does a prothean computer giving Shepard a prothean data package that controls what people believe to be a prothean space station prove the reapers exsit?
 
[quote]
What about THIS? After that, we shoot Saren again to make sure he’s dead but then… he starts coming back from the dead… and transforms into some kind of thing and says “I am Sovereign! And this station is MINE!”[/quote]

Them Geth can do some funky things. Much easier to believe that then ancient Reapers.
 
[quote]
[b[b]]Vigil says that he’s prothean. Just because something says that it’s Prothean doesn’t mean that it’s Prothean. The Council couldn’t verify it.[/b]
[/b]
Riiiiight.
The site is 50 000 years old and the entire ruin is Prothean. Each galactic species studied countless other Prothean ruins so far. Do you think that they wouldn’t be able to compare something and see? There are also dead Protheins inside the sleper pods, they could just take DNA samples and match them with the ones they found from other ruins.
Yes, they can easily verify it
[/quote]

I’m not saying they can’t figure out it was a computer on a prothean world. I’m saying that without actually talking to Vigil, they cannot verify that what Shepard saw was not a decoy planted by Saren.
I know what you are saying, “That’s silly! Why would the council believe Saren would go through all that trouble?”
Because it is a more likely explanation that Giant Reapers.

Saren playing mind games with Shepard, or Giant Robots coming to kill everyone?
If I gave you this choice in the real world (not a video game) Most people would choose option A.

[quote]
It would be like a judge saying that there’s a video tape of a suspect saying that he’s innocent -- so he must be innocent!
 
It depends on the video, of course.
 
But do you remember what it took to prove Saren’s guilt to the Council?

Councilor Velarn: “Some quarian just showed an audio recording where Saren admits that he’s guilty! IT’S IRREFUTABLE!”[/quote]

This argument again…   Do people really think that the tape was not checked for authenticity? This is not CSI. The game is not going to show you some lab coat going over the tape and confirming it is really his voice. The game just assumes you are smart enough to figure that out.
 
Yes, Kasumi has the ability to copy voice to a limited degree. Even with her cool tech it took an entire speech to make one word. How much would it take to make an entire conversation?  Just because the best thief in the galaxy has the ability to forge something does not mean everyone assumes all voices are fake now. There are some people out there that can make flawless IDs these days. Does this mean courts just assume any ID is fake?

Beleiving a Spector has gone rogue is nowhere near the same as believing Reapers are coming.

[quote]
Saren saw Shepard’s reports. He knew that Shepard believed in the Reapers so he decided to keep on messing with him. That conversation with Sovereign on Virmire can be easily dismissed as a VI programmed by Saren to keep on fooling Shepard.
 
So… Saren prepares a hologram “Reaper” VI in his very own personal quarters in a super top secret base. He does this so he could further mess around with Shepard… just in case, huh? Despite the very small chance that Shepard would be capable of finding the base and if he would personally manage to come all the way to Saren’s personal quarters. Is that what you’re saying?[/quote]

I am saying that that is easier to believe than the idea that it was really a Reaper.  You are failing to grasp just how difficult it would be to convince someone of the Reapers. Almost any possible explanation would be considered more likely than the Idea that the Reapers really do exist.
 
[quote]
Why Saren simply didn’t set up a bomb or some other kind of trap is never dwelled upon.
In the same room, Shepard found another beacon just like the one on Eden Prime for which Saren and the geth started a war. Why Saren was dumb enough to leave that in the room if he was expecting Shepard to come is also never questioned.[/quote]

You are missing the point. A video tape of a hologram would never be enough to convince ANYONE that mythical beasts are coming to eat us. 

[quote]
Convincing the Council to believe in the Reapers is the same as convincing them to believe in fairy tales and robot unicorns coming to kill us all.
 
You know… I’ll admit that saying how an ancient alien race coming to kill us all may sound crazy, but please, you’re over exaggerating it to the absolute extreme.
 
Seriously, cut the hyperbole. [/quote]

What exaggeration? How is saying that A race of Giant Machines come once every 50,000 years to wipe everything out any easier to believe than saying Magical dragons are coming to kill us all? Reapers are a myth in the Mass Effect universe. This is taken from the codex, “A myth common to several cultures in the galaxy, Reapers were imagined to be space monsters who consumed entire stars.”
I am not exaggerating, there is no difference in how they would view Reapers or Dragons, or any other fairy tail or myth.
 
[quote]
If I brought a magical robot unicorn who admitted everything in front of the Congress then people would think it’s a prank. They could dissect it and most would say that it’s Japanese.
 
Do you know what the most advanced robots of today are? Do you know what they are capable of?
 
ASIMO can walk up stairs and run like a human.
HRP-4C can dance and sing, but not walk well. Stickeybot can climb walls but only for a few millimeters.
Bina can talk like a 4 year old human. BigDog can keep its balance on rough terrain and find it way around a rock or tree.
These are what I remember from an article which I read a few months back.
 
None of these can, say, single-handedly destroy most of the American army. Even the Japanese would be at awe if they saw it. In fact, many people were amazed when they saw ASIMO just running and climbing up the stairs.  
[/quote]

What you are ignoring is probability. Everyone would be in awe, yes. But they would think it is far more likely that someone on Earth made it, than the idea that it is an advanced space robot. People believe in what they understand. They understand other humans and their ability to do amazing things. They do not understand or comprehend space robots so they are far more likely to attach an explanation that fits what they understand.
 
[quote]
Even if an advanced robot unicorn appeared I’m sure people would be at awe. And I doubt anyone would think it’s a prank if it destroyed most of the American military all by itself.
Use more imagination. What would it take for the robot unicorn to convince you to believe its story?
What if it cured every disease on the planet? What if it shared a huge amount of mind blowing knowledge that no one on Earth knows about? What if it taught us how to build space ships? Would anyone then still think that it’s all a joke?[/quote]

Of course not, but then we don’t have any reapers doing these things for us either.
 
[quote]
And I find it kinda funny that you’ve used magic as an example. You know Clarke’s third law, right?
[/b] [/quote]

Actually, I was unaware of that quote. I had to wiki it.

[quote]
It would take a mountain of evidence in order for the Council to believe that the Reapers exist.
 
There is more than just a mountain of evidence about the Reapers. Sovereign alone should fit as an example.
I really don’t understand how the Council can dismiss Sovereign, a Reaper itself, as evidence. If that didn’t convince them, then I honestly don’t know what else would.[/quote]

I don’t understand how you can say that when you don’t even know what they have. Pieces of Sovy, that is it. You have no knowledge of what that entails, or how they should be able to tell it apart from Geth ships. You have no idea how the ships were designed, how similar or different they are, or what methods the council have at their disposal for determining this.

All you know is that they look different and one had a lot more fire power then the others. That is the only information you can gain from the game. Everything else is speculation on what you THINK should be.

 [quote]
Another thing that I don’t understand is what does the Council believe and what evidences do they have to support their own believes?
I’ll just leave this link.[/quote]

They Believe the Reapers do not exsit. They believe this because they have not seen sufficient proof to make them believe otherwise. That is al this thread is dealing with.

[quote]
If the asari councilor mind melded with Shepard she would share thoughts with Shepard, thus giving access to every secret the Council had. That wouldn’t be a good idea, especially because Shepard is working with Cerberus.
Er, Shepard isn’t an asari. He can’t control the mind meld.[/quote]

The codex states, “During mating an asari and her partner share memories, thoughts, and feelings.” It says nothing about this being a one way road. In order to gain access to Shepard’s mind she would have to open up her own.
 
[quote]
I also remember Shepard mind melding with Liara, and neither of them shared anything else but the visions. They don’t mention anything about reading something else from each other’s minds. Same goes for Shiala when she gave Shepard the Cipher. [/quote]
Because it was not important to the game. Why would the game show you non-plot important thoughts that were shared?

[quote]The Consort who works at the Citadel is an asari who knows many secrets. Yet she doesn’t mind pleasing her clients.
How about that?[/quote]

No one ever said she mind melded with anyone.  Asari can have purely physical experiences. in fact the sex scene in game with Shep shows no signs of a mind meld. No black eyes, no "embrace eternity" just some naughty looks and a hand trying to claw it's way out of the glass. (good lord Shep, what were you doing to her in there?)
 

[quote]Mind melding with the asari Councilor wouldn’t change anything because she wouldn’t be able to make anything out of it anyway. She would only a bunch of jumbled images like what we saw. It would be like seeing someone’s open mouth. Even Liara barely made sense out of it.

Actually,Liara described the experience to be vivid and very intense. She clearly saw that the Protheans were wiped by the Reapers, she said so herself. [/quote]
Yes, because she is a prothean expert that understood them. She clearly states this helps her interpret the visions.

[quote]
You don’t need to be a Prothean expert to comprehend that you’re seeing a bunch of people getting butchered by Reapers.[/quote]
Really? Because shepard did not have a clue about what was going on. All He/she could tell was that someone was getting killed by… something. Hardly a smoking gun that the reapers are coming.
 [quote]
According to Shiala and the codex, the visions would get clearer and more understandable as time passes. Well, it’s been some time since ME1.[/quote]
They would get clearer to Shpeard as his mind had time to understand the cipher. This says nothing about another’s ability to understand the visions.
 
[quote]
There’s also this side mission in ME2 where Shepard gets another vision by a Prothean artifact. We can assume that it made the visions even clearer.[/quote]

Clearer to Shepard, a person who has been living with the visions for quite some time now.  So… Maybe Shepard should go to the councilor and say, “Ok, read up on protheans and then mind meld with me. Make sure you also transfer the cipher. Then… maybe with enough time, you could possibly start to understand them.”
I’m sure that would go over great.
 
[quote]Then there’s this vision from Arrival too.[b][/quote]

And again, we have no idea what happens after Arrival.

The point is, the Reapers are seen as fantasy space monsters. You would need one hell of a smoking gun to convince governments they exist, and there is not one, not a single one you can point to and say, “See? They DO exist!”


Annnnnd... If you managed to read all of that you get a cookie! http://t1.gstatic.co...51a5FZktiqB5B8A

Be careful though... it tastes suspiciously like a computer screen:?

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:02 .

[neenee77]

Kane Corr wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Kane Corr wrote...

The Council wanted to stop widespread panic before it could even begin. Investigate it in private, and in the shadows. If knowledge of the reapers hit the extranet and newsstands all around, then the Citadel government and everyone around, the whole infrastructure, would have collapsed under the insanity...therefore, leaving a very big mess for when the Reapers actually DID approach.

You suggest the Council actually believes it, found evidence and all and is just trying to cover everything up including making Shepard believe they don't think Reapers are real, while in the meantime they're actually preparing somehow? I could see that happening.

It's actually true. I mean, well....I guess I'll go into it a little bit right now.

So, let's look at this from the Council's perspective. All the council races, the Terminus, etc. Alot of people. Imagine all of them being notified of a very REAL threat that was knocking on their door...panic, chaos, anarchy.

Stocks would drop, inflation, debt,  civil wars, crime rate increase, drugs on the rise, strife between various other forms of governments. It would be an absolute mess. The Council races would be handing themselves over to the reapers on a silver platter. So, what do you do? Deny. Deny. Deny.

Why?

Because it's the only way you'll keep your civilization intact, and as primed as it ever will be. Just investigate, experiment, and build secretly for years. You don't know how the Reapers will do it, or even partially why....only that they DO exist, and you have to maintain order. Order is the MOST important facet. The Reapers LOVE chaos. It makes their job easier. So, the Council is actually right in doing what they were doing.

Also too, there were little hints of this in Mass Effect 2. Especially from the Alliance's perspective...like sending Ash/Kaidan to various outpost worlds, setting up defense systems against The Collecters. It's not like these governments don't realize the threat, just that they'd rather do it in the shadows, and without public interference.

I like that, plus too all the chaos that it will bring (from the denial and the real threat) will be part of shepards quest to unite everyone. makes sense!

[neenee77]

Also, at the citadel when shepard gets there he has to be scanned to make sure he/she isn't a geth. at arias this happens to (possibly stolen data from council). so it is possible that they think that the evidence is geth instead of reaper tech. or that what they are saying. the post above thats really long makes great point too, i just didn't want to quote the whole thing.

[SpiffySquee]

neenee77 wrote...

Also, at the citadel when shepard gets there he has to be scanned to make sure he/she isn't a geth. at arias this happens to (possibly stolen data from council). so it is possible that they think that the evidence is geth instead of reaper tech. or that what they are saying. the post above thats really long makes great point too, i just didn't want to quote the whole thing.

damn thing took me hours... HOURS I say!!!!!

Still, he took the time to write that much, and I felt it deserved the same respect

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:56 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Why haven't I seen this before? That was nice.

Good job Squee, you sure throw some information while being entertaining. Do you work as a teacher? If not, maybe you should consider it.

^ *looks up

OH MY FREAKIN' GOD.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 17 septembre 2011 - 02:20 .

[Iakus]

SpiffySquee wrote...

I did not say they could build reapers. I simply said it is not impossible for them to upgrade some of their systems with reaper tech. Sovy does not have to let them study him. He can simply give them any upgrades he desires them to have. 

Having said that, it is a bit of a weak argument on my account. the point was to show that you cannot prove that the council should have been able to tell a clear difference between the two races since they had no idea what the geth had in the first place. Until you can show that the Council races had detailed specs of what a geth ship was supposed to be, or at least show me two detailed schematics of sovy and a geth ship that clearly shows amazing differences, you cannot say that they could tell the two apart. 

The burden of proof is on you to disprove the story, not the other way around. You have to show undeniable evidence that the Council could clearly tell the two apart. You cannot. 

Just want to make a point here:  There is a race that could tell what is and is not likely to be geth tech.  The quarians.  They've been fighting the geth off and on for three centuries.

The quarians may be on the outs with the Citadel Council, but if the Council didn't consult the Migrant Fleet about the geth after the attack on the Citadel, they belong in the "Too Stupid to Live" category.