RyuGuitarFreak wrote...
Why haven't I seen this before? That was nice.
Good job Squee, you sure throw some information while being entertaining. Do you work as a teacher? If not, maybe you should consider it.
^ *looks up
OH MY FREAKIN' GOD.
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
I did not say they could build reapers. I simply said it is not impossible for them to upgrade some of their systems with reaper tech. Sovy does not have to let them study him. He can simply give them any upgrades he desires them to have.
Having said that, it is a bit of a weak argument on my account. the point was to show that you cannot prove that the council should have been able to tell a clear difference between the two races since they had no idea what the geth had in the first place. Until you can show that the Council races had detailed specs of what a geth ship was supposed to be, or at least show me two detailed schematics of sovy and a geth ship that clearly shows amazing differences, you cannot say that they could tell the two apart.
The burden of proof is on you to disprove the story, not the other way around. You have to show undeniable evidence that the Council could clearly tell the two apart. You cannot.
Just want to make a point here: There is a race that could tell what is and is not likely to be geth tech. The quarians. They've been fighting the geth off and on for three centuries.
The quarians may be on the outs with the Citadel Council, but if the Council didn't consult the Migrant Fleet about the geth after the attack on the Citadel, they belong in the "Too Stupid to Live" category.
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
I did not say they could build reapers. I simply said it is not impossible for them to upgrade some of their systems with reaper tech. Sovy does not have to let them study him. He can simply give them any upgrades he desires them to have.
Having said that, it is a bit of a weak argument on my account. the point was to show that you cannot prove that the council should have been able to tell a clear difference between the two races since they had no idea what the geth had in the first place. Until you can show that the Council races had detailed specs of what a geth ship was supposed to be, or at least show me two detailed schematics of sovy and a geth ship that clearly shows amazing differences, you cannot say that they could tell the two apart.
The burden of proof is on you to disprove the story, not the other way around. You have to show undeniable evidence that the Council could clearly tell the two apart. You cannot.
Just want to make a point here: There is a race that could tell what is and is not likely to be geth tech. The quarians. They've been fighting the geth off and on for three centuries.
The quarians may be on the outs with the Citadel Council, but if the Council didn't consult the Migrant Fleet about the geth after the attack on the Citadel, they belong in the "Too Stupid to Live" category.
Anacronian Stryx wrote...
The quarians could identify Geth tech as it was 300 years ago, Since then the Geth have drastically evolved (even Tali's mission in ME 1 revolves around finding clues how the Geth have evolved) - The quarians would be just as lost as anybody else in disqualifying Sovereign as of Geth make as anybody else.
SpiffySquee wrote...
Not really. Tali says it herself. They have almost no knowledge of the geth after they went beyond the veil. They have no idea how much they have advanced or changed. All the Quarians could do is tell the council that Sovy was much more advanced than the geth ships of 300 years ago. A lot can change in three hundred years. 300 years ago it took us around a minute to load a gun for one shot. Now we have mini guns that can spit out up to 6,000 rounds a minute.
Modifié par iakus, 17 septembre 2011 - 04:26 .
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Not really. Tali says it herself. They have almost no knowledge of the geth after they went beyond the veil. They have no idea how much they have advanced or changed. All the Quarians could do is tell the council that Sovy was much more advanced than the geth ships of 300 years ago. A lot can change in three hundred years. 300 years ago it took us around a minute to load a gun for one shot. Now we have mini guns that can spit out up to 6,000 rounds a minute.
"We've done our best to study them, but it's not easy. They're very reclusuve. Until recently, they never went beyond teh borders of the Veil" Tali'Zorah nar Rayya
They have been studying the geth. They don't know as much as they'd like, but it's still probably more than any one else this side of the perseus Veil.
Yakko77 wrote...
The shellfish/bug design of the Reaper ships is just a cover for the entity inside it. Even if the human Reaper of ME2 was completed, there still would've been a shellfish/bug looking armored hull covering it. I would assume that some of the Reaper "innards" would've been found after the Battle of the Citadel thus differentiating it from Geth ships. If anything, the Council denies the existence of the Reapers to prevent a panic.
111987 wrote...
Yakko77 wrote...
The shellfish/bug design of the Reaper ships is just a cover for the entity inside it. Even if the human Reaper of ME2 was completed, there still would've been a shellfish/bug looking armored hull covering it. I would assume that some of the Reaper "innards" would've been found after the Battle of the Citadel thus differentiating it from Geth ships. If anything, the Council denies the existence of the Reapers to prevent a panic.
In the scene though, the explosion that rips Sovereign apart occurs in the middle of the vessel, i.e. where the Reaper Core would be. It's highly likely it was damaged far beyond recognition, or maybe even totally vaporized.
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
iakus wrote...
WIth certainty? No, there are no certainties.
Modifié par Il Divo, 17 septembre 2011 - 01:24 .
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
I believe Mordin during one of the conversation talks about how he studied the effect of Reaper indoctrination from an STG report.
SpiffySquee wrote...
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
I believe Mordin during one of the conversation talks about how he studied the effect of Reaper indoctrination from an STG report.
Don't remember that conversation, but it does not mean STG believes in the reapers. It simply means they made a report about indoctrination and Mordin made the connection to reapers. Maleon also said Mordin wrote a paper about Reaper indoctrination. All it proves is that Mordin believes in them. Shepard believed in the reapers in ME1... does that mean the Alliance believed in them too? The thoughts of one person do not automatically reflect the thoughts of an Organization. By that argument, C-sec believed Saren was a traitor simply because Garrus made a report saying he felt Saren was a traitor.
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
I believe Mordin during one of the conversation talks about how he studied the effect of Reaper indoctrination from an STG report.
Don't remember that conversation, but it does not mean STG believes in the reapers. It simply means they made a report about indoctrination and Mordin made the connection to reapers. Maleon also said Mordin wrote a paper about Reaper indoctrination. All it proves is that Mordin believes in them. Shepard believed in the reapers in ME1... does that mean the Alliance believed in them too? The thoughts of one person do not automatically reflect the thoughts of an Organization. By that argument, C-sec believed Saren was a traitor simply because Garrus made a report saying he felt Saren was a traitor.
I actually wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to answer your question
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
I believe Mordin during one of the conversation talks about how he studied the effect of Reaper indoctrination from an STG report.
iakus wrote...
111987 wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Someone With Mass wrote...
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
Indeed, but here is no indication that they know anywhere near enough to say with certainty that Sovy is not a Geth
WIth certainty? No, there are o certainties. They could, however, take one look at a report on Sovereign and go "WTF is this? That thing's way more advanced than anything we've seen from the geth before! "
Oddly, though, the quarians do seem to believe Shepard about the Reapers...
The STG believe that the Reapers exists too.
People keep saying that... did I miss something? When did the STG ever say they believe in the reapers?
I believe Mordin during one of the conversation talks about how he studied the effect of Reaper indoctrination from an STG report.
Shepard: Maybe the weyrloc brainwashed or drugged him (Maelon) to keep him under control
Mordin: Unlikely. Pupils normal. Body language consistent with standard metabolic state.
Maelon: Please, Professor, you wrote a paper on this: "Forced behavior modification always results in mental degradation. Whether from Reaper indoctrination or drugs , test subjucts always lose higher cognitive function"
SpiffySquee wrote...
yup, and as I said, all this proves is that Mordin believes in the reapers. It does not even prove that Maelon believes in the reapers since he was simply quoting Mordin's paper. It does not mean STG shares this view, or even that the paper was submitted to STG. For all we know, it could have been an academic paper and STG has never seen it. Mordin is (or was) a professor after all.
iakus wrote...
SpiffySquee wrote...
yup, and as I said, all this proves is that Mordin believes in the reapers. It does not even prove that Maelon believes in the reapers since he was simply quoting Mordin's paper. It does not mean STG shares this view, or even that the paper was submitted to STG. For all we know, it could have been an academic paper and STG has never seen it. Mordin is (or was) a professor after all.
true. But academic papers are typically peer-reviewed. Which means others have seen it and thought it was worth publishing. It may not be widely read, of course. But other academics would be aware of it, and consider it worth reading.
Actually to expand on that a bit, he does not directly say that the paper even mentioned indoctrination. In the post above there are quotations around part of what Maelon says, but that is not how the subs show the conversation. There are no quotes. What is definitive is that Mordin wrote a paper on forced behavior modification. We don't actually know that Reaper Indoctrination was in the paper or what the actual results and examples were in the study. He could have simply been extrapolating the results of the paper to include Reaper Indoctrination. Granted that raises the question of why Maelon would know about it in the first place. You could make a leap and say that indoctrination was in the paper, because nothing Maelon says would contradict that hypothesis. Without seeing the paper you do not actually know the content though.SpiffySquee wrote...
That is still a non-argument. A Paper published by Mordin is in no way evidence that STG believes in reapers, nor is it an undeniable reason reason for the Council to believe in them.
Modifié par capn233, 18 septembre 2011 - 04:24 .
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