Hyperion II wrote...
Squee, I might be starting to like you.
Yay!!! Just don't start putting creepy love notes in my mail box
Why the council denying the reapers isn't crazy
Débuté par
SpiffySquee
, juil. 22 2011 01:42
#201
Posté 30 septembre 2011 - 01:55
SpiffySquee
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Yay!!! Just don't start putting creepy love notes in my mail box
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#202
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 27 octobre 2011 - 11:50
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First video
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
In order for this to be accurate, we would need a general understanding of how advanced the geth are. We don't. Even in ME2 the council races have a very limited understanding of the geth and what they are capable of. Your analogy of the pistols is not very good because it assumes we know the geth are only capable of making 18th century pistols. We would have to have a good idea of the limits of geth tech and we don't.
The council could simply assume that Sovy was a more advanced creation of the geth. The quiarians fly ships that are 300 years old and are probably obsolete compared to some of their newer ships. They are, however, still quarian ships. There is no reason why the Geth do not do the same.
Secondly, no mention of Sovy having organic parts was ever mentioned. This means that what ever pieces of Sovy were left did not contain any organic compounds, so that argument is pointless.
It is a far more likely scenario than Sovy being from a mythical race of machines sent to destroy everyone.
[/quote]
Your comparison to the quarians isn’t right and it makes no sense. The quarians do have poor and inferior ships, but they are forced to have them. They have no planets, no territories, no resources of their own and they cannot find a way to replace them. The geth, on the other hand, have all quarian territories under their control.
Many of the quarians ships are old but they are not as obsolete as you’re saying. Their ships are always modified, recycled, salvaged and kept up to date as much as possible.
Many of their ships aren’t even quarian ships; they are ships which were collected from other aliens.
Sovereign wasn’t just more advanced than other geth ships, it was FAR more advanced.
Why would the geth be using ships, technology and weapons that are so out-of-date when they can build anything so much powerful like Sovereign? It doesn’t make sense.
Today, is there an army that still uses 18th century pistols, 16th century battleships and WW1 tanks? Of course not, and I dont think I need to explain why.
Shepard couldn’t download data from Vigil because the omni-tool wouldn’t have interface for Prothean data. The Protheans communicated telepathically, remember? The reason Shepard and his companion were able to communicate with Vigil was because Vigil adapted himself to match their language.
When Vigil shut down, that system shut down with him. There’s nothing the Council could have gotten from him.
But if you can somehow prove that they were able to get all this information from Vigil, I’ll say it’s a very valid argument.
[quote]
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Shepard says the same thing even if you do not have her. "Grab that data file"
He is referring to the override codes
[/quote]
No, and Shepard says “I’ve got the file. Come on.”
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Other wise, some mention of "Hey I have a data file on the reapers" would have been made at some later point.
[/quote]
Of course it would. Oh wait…
The suit recordings got mentioned and discussed in both ME1 and ME2. Oh wait…
Throughout both ME1 and ME2, Shepard totally bothered to gather and bring a lot of evidences about the Reapers to the Council. Oh wait…
It’s obvious that Legion would say more than just one sentence when meeting the Council… and…it…
Shepard also mentioned binding his mind with the asari Coun… er…. well, and…
Uhm… the least what Shepard did with Chorban was… he…
There’s …….*sigh*
Cerberus wasn’t gonna share the derelict Reaper to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard also destroyed it so he couldn’t show it to the Council.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Shepard collects some research and recordings from the derelict Reaper. He could have shared them with the Council.
I wish there was an option to scan anything with your omni-tool as much as possible and then send it to the Council but the game doesn’t allow it.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Again, you assume that a few recording of Cerberus agents going crazy is enough to convince the council of a fairy tale. The council already studied the pieces of Sovy and concluded he was geth. What makes you think a few scans of the same type of ship would make any difference? there was nothing on the Reaper that screamed out, "Hey! I'm a reaper!"
[/quote]
Where did I say a few scans? Shepard and his companions could have made even more than a hundred scans.
Why would it make a difference? How about because this Reaper isn’t completely dead, it’s much less damaged than Sovereign, it’s mostly in one piece and each Reaper is different
Also, earlier in the mission, both Shepard and companions mentioned that they need to gather as much research as possible which was left from the Cerberus team. Haven’t they done that? Shepard did scan multiple computers.
By the end of Arrival, Shepard knows that the Alliance already knows about the Reapers so what’s the point in convincing the Council?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Do I really have to answer this?
Do you think that the Alliance can stop the Reapers all by themselves?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What? you are completely missing the point. The alliance would have a much greater chance of convincing the council than Shepard ever would. If Shep believes the Alliance knows, then he would let them worry about convincing the council. [/quote]
You didn’t mention any of this in your videos.
Where was it mentioned that the Alliance will even be trying to convince the Council? Nowhere.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
In addition, Arrival happens after the events of ME2 (confirmed by more than one developer). this means we do not know if the council is still denying it or if the Alliance has convinced them other wise.
[/quote]
Show me where Bioware truly confirmed that it’s canon, because Arrival can be played right after Horizon. If so, then just great. They tell us that all our decisions matter and that there’s no such thing as canon, only to tell us once again that some people were playing their game “wrong”.
Stay consistent Bioware.
What other evidences does the Council have as far as evidence goes except for Shepard’s words? None!
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Everyone knows that the Protheins went extinct but don’t know how or why. An entire advanced species which had an empire stretched across the whole galaxy just simply disappeared! Doesn’t that raise any red flags?
What about these:
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Helyme
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Eingana
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Armeni
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Etamis
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Atahil
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Joab
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Aphras
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Bothros
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Tosal_Nym
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Gaelon
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Klendagon
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Vecchio
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Gamayun
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Junthor
I think there are more planets which I could add but I won’t bother finding them.
The Protheans aren’t the only spacefaring species known to exist. There were other mass extinctions around the galaxy which span for millions and millions of years.
Sure, you can argue that someone other than the Reapers could have caused these extinctions, but then what happened to them? Where are they now?
Every one of these species vanished, with very little traces left behind of their existence. It’s as if someone wanted it all covered up.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What is your point here? Would it raise red flags? Maybe among historians. Would it cause governments to believe mythical machines are coming to kill them? Hardly.
You know what they would say? They would say, "that's an interesting theory... show me proof that it was all caused by giant machines."
[/quote]
It would raise red flags among many people. Why wouldn't it? All this certainly isn't a coincidence and it musn't be ignored.
Does it show undeniable proof of the Reapers? No.
Does it at least show that there’s something very odd about all this? Yes.
Does it show a possibility for the Reapers existence? Yes.
Does it match what Shepard says? Definitely, and it makes Shepard’s claims much less deserving to be air quoted. And why call Shepard delusional and insane?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- There’s Ilos. The last survivbing Protheans used the site and spent decades to research anything they possibly could about the Reapers and ways to prevent their next invasion. The reason Vigil shut down was because he lost power, but losing power doesn’t destroy a computer. Powering up should have given them access to everything. Or couldn’t they at least recover data from hardware? But if all this was impossible for some unknown reasons, Shepard still had suit recording and he downloaded data from Vigil before leaving.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
And how do you "power up" a prothean computer? Do you know?
[/quote]
Do I know how to power up a Prothean computer?
What kind of question is that?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Because the council sure didn't. They stated they went to Illos and could not get anything out of Vigil. If you think they went there pokes him, saw nothing happened, and just went home then you are being silly. they investigated Illos. They tried to talk to Vigil. they could not. Again, you would have to show that they should have been able to, which you can't. [/quote]
All galactic species have based their technology on the Protheans. Many Prothean ruins were discovered, explored, studied and their technology was reverse-engineered. This is how humanity and other alien species mastered space travel in the first place. They also based their technologies on the mass relays, just like the Protheans did.
But the Council didn’t know how to simply restore power? Right, silly me for thinking about it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Cerberus News:
“Historians and astronomers alike are abuzz tonight over a new paper published by Dr. Amanda Kenson of the University of Arcturus. Her team claims that by testing the dust trapped in the gravity wells around a mass relay, and comparing its composition to that of dust clouds in the same system, scientists can create a timeline of when the relay passed through the dust. Her conclusion? "Only a small fraction of the mass effect relays date back 50,000 years," she writes, "The majority are far older, indicating they were created by a species predating even the Protheans." Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice met the information with skepticism: "While Dr. Kenson's methods appear sound, the asari tried a similar procedure centuries ago and discounted it. What civilization could have spanned the galaxy for not thousands, but millions of years? If this were the case, we should have found mountains of evidence of their passing. Where is this species now?”[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Umm… this actually hurts your case. Even though WE know she is right, most people have discounted her findings.
[/quote]
Fine, my bad. So here are two more then:
“Reactions to the discovery that mass relays were not created by the Prothean civilization continue to pour in. On Kahje, the response is largely denial and shock. Religious leader All-Bright Olos the 10th, the Sounaril of the Manas tradition, reacted by uploading a 13-minute speech to the newsnets that urged calm and peace. "It is no heresy to say the Enkindlers themselves may have been Enkindled," the hanar said. "It is their example of selflessness, courtesy, and willingness to share their gifts that teaches these ones how to live. To say there was something before them, an even more noble being, gives these penitents an even swifter current to ride, a greater model to which we can all aspire."”
“Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.”
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- There are some evidences about the Reapers in Keiji’s greybox.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
As far as I know, we have yet o decode it, so at he moment, it is still hidden in Keiji’s memories. We don’t know what we have so we can’t use this as evidence.
[/quote]
The graybox was cracked, Keiji’s memories and secrrets are open for use. They just have to look and find it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- We took over the Shadow Broker’s base in LotSB. There are evidences there.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Liara only stated that the Shadow Broker knew about he reapers. We have no idea how, or how solid the evidence is. For al we know it could simply be circumstantial evidence that would not be enough for the council. I agree, that it raises some eye brows, but until we know what information the SB had we have no idea if it would be useful to persuade the council with.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt that there’s nothing about the Reapers. The SB has more connections across the galaxy than both the Council and Cerberus combined. He had connections within Cerberus, the Normandy and the Council. We can even see from one of the vids that the SB had a drone aboard the derelict Reaper. He made deals with the Collectors and tried to stop Saren.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- What about the Cerberus files aboard the Normandy?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What about them? Did you see any files on the Normandy with reaper evidence? I sure didn’t.
[/quote]
There are a lot of databases about Cerberus and the Collectors aboard the Normandy. Since Shepard is leading the operation, Cerberus would also need to provide him with as much intel as possible if they want the operation to be successful. Doesn’t Shepard have access to many of it anyways?
One of the closest things the playuers got from the game would be the Codex entries. Here’s one that catches my attention:
“While monitoring outgoing transmissions sent by the mysterious leader of the Collectors to his minions on the battlefield, Cerberus intelligence experts also intercepted incoming transmissions. The signals were encrypted commands sent to the Collector General from a source outside the galaxy.
Now this would have been a good evidence if Shepard bothered getting it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Legion and his geth believe in the Reapers since they had an encounter with Sovereign. Shepard could have at least asked Legion to get some evidences from them. And why didn’t Legion tell more than just one sentence when meeting the Council?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Assuming you actually had Legion? He is a geth. Why would the council believe anything he says. In order to prove such things, the Geth would have to show detailed schematics of their ships so a comparison can be made. I doubt the Geth want to give the Council sensitive information like that.
[/quote]
Don’t you think there could be other evidences?
Very little is known about the geth. No one has ever spoken to one before, the least it should have done was spark interest. Oddly, the salarian Councilor was willing to come up with a different assumption based on what Legion said.
One of the main things I wanted Legion to do was show how Sovereign and Saren approached the geth and tried gaining them as allies. Legion could have also proved how the heretics worshipped Sovereign, how they believed that Sovereign was a Reaper and their god. I always wondered why the Council couldn’t at least verify this by themselves.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
There is not a single piece of solid evidence in this entire list. It is all speculation, possible connections, or information received at he end of the game so we have no idea what has been done with it. Nothing in this list clearly points to Reapers, and thus, there is no mountain of evidence.
[/quote]
I disagtree almost completely.
In your videos, you didn’t even mention anything about the evidences Shepard gathered at the “end” of ME2.
The game also doesn’t end right after the suicide mission. You can still do any side missions, loyalty missions and the DLCs.
I think another thing I should have mentioned are the Dragon’s teeth. In ME1, wasn't it confirmed that they aren't made by geth since they have little resemblance to their technology?
One more thing that irritates me to no end is the N7 Abondoned Mine. In it, Shepard finds a Reaper artifact which indoctrinated the science team and turned them into husks. Great evidence to show to the Council, right? But what does Shepard do instead? He blows it up and buries it under rubble, for no reason.
According to the Codex, the Reaper artifact from Arrival was very resilient to damage, so perhaps this artifact wasn’t destroyed but just buried under rubble. Either way, Shepard mentions noting about it to the Council.
There was a similar side mission in ME1. What happened to that? There seems to be a lot of Reaper artifacts scattered across the galaxy. There are mentions of machine cultists and how people traveled across the galaxy and ended up finding artifacts which turned them into monsters. Even your squadmates tell this.
How come the Council hasn’t found these artifacts and studied them?
I could add far more evidences than I already gave but it would be too time consuming to write them down. Most of those evidences are not that strong anyways. And I’m apparently not allowed to use anything unless it was specifically mentioned in the games.
What government would follow the words of just one man?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Saren, their former top Spectre, believed it. Benezia, a well-respected 1000 year old matriarch, also believed it. [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The council believe Saren is using it to have his way with the geth and Shepard. They do not think he actually believes in the Reapers.[/quote]
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The geth believe it.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Again, the council stated it is probable that Saren used the story of Reapers to manipulate the geth.
[/quote]
They didn't say that it’s probable, they really DO believe that. Which is arrogant, illogical and very idiotic of them.
For the past 200-300 years, the geth killed anyone who entered their space without warning, but Saren got a pass. Was it because he’s that charming for them?
Saren being so compelling and charismatic that he convinced millions and millions of AI’s that the Reapers are totally real and that he’s the prophet for their return. Yeah… that makes perfect sense.
Since you’re arguing that Reapers are fairy tales and unicorns, then you’re also arguing that Saren convinced the geth that organic fairy tales are totally real, that magical robot unicorns are their gods and that he’s the prophet for their return. Which makes the Council’s statement even more retarded.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The Alliance believes it and they are preparing for war.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
At the end of the game. When we find out he alliance believe it we have no way of seeing if they have convinced the council or not. We have no idea if their stance has changed or not. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.
[/quote]
We don’t know if the Alliance will be trying to convince the Council, or what they really have at their disposal. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.
For all we know, the Alliance could have been preparing for months or even since Shepard’s death. And don't forget that Anderson didn't manage to convince the other Councilors to believe in the Reapers.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Shepard’s entire crew, which are composed of one of the best and most skillful people in the galaxy, also believe in the Reapers. I wish Samara could have had a talk with the asari Councilor because the word of a Justicar would go unquestioned.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
When did she ever say she believed in the reapers? She believed in the collectors, that is all.
[/quote]
Here you go. If that doesn’t suffice then take her to the derelict Reaper and listen to her dialogue.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
In fact, there are many people throughout the galaxy who believe in the Reapers. It’s shown in both the books and the game that rumors about the Reapers are being spread everywhere.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So…. Governments should base policy decisions on rumors now? A lot of people believe 2012 is the end of the world… perhaps the government should start telling everyone to prepare for it. It does not matter if people believe it if they have no evidence to back it up.
[/quote]
Did I say that? Nope, and I neither think so. I clearly wrote down what my point is but you decided to waste time and argue beside it anyway.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The point I’m trying to make is that Shepard isn’t the only person who believes in the Reapers. So I would suggest you to stop saying that.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m sorry, could you point out where I said Shepard was the only person who believed in the Reapers? You can’t? Oh… that must be because I never said that. You should pay more attention to what I am or am not saying.
[/quote]
My apologies.
However… it’s not something you specifically said, but it is what you implied. So on the other hand, perhaps you should pay more attention to what you’re saying or not saying.
It’s possible that the Council does know about the Reapers but they don’t want to reveal anything to the public so they wouldn’t cause massive panic.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would be taking actions to prepare for the invasion. This would be a galaxy-wide operation. There would be a massive increase in building ships and planetary defenses, massive increase in recruitment and military training, massive investment in weapons research and technology, increase in partnership and cooperation with many, etc. Basically, the Council would be gathering and using every available resource to prepare for the coming war.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Possibly. Or they could believe the reapers exist but not be willing to publicly admit with out proper evidence. They could be scrambling to gather enough evidence to convince the other races of the attack, or they could be make preparations in secret to avoid panic. There are a lot of things they COULD be doing, so you should not assume that there is only one possible course of action.
[/quote]
If the Council is truly aware of t he the Reapers, then I just hope they’re planning something much better than “We fight or we die, that’s the plan!”
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- The Council would know that no one else had as much encounter and experience with the Reapers as Shepard. Hell, the reason Cerberus even brought Shepard back from the dead was because they believed he was the only person who could stop the Reapers.
He was gone for two years, and for all they know Shepard might have been investigating all that time and right now have very crucial information about the Reapers. Shepard is also willing to work with them, so isn’t it dumb that they decided to ignore him completely?
Shepard is with Cerberus, but Cerberus is also fighting against the Reapers, which are the much greater evil. Keeping Shepard out of anything related to combating the Reapers is foolish.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the council. Shepard now works for them. Why would they tell any sensitive information?
[/quote]
How is it that telling Shepard that they know about the Reapers is giving any sensitive information to Cerberus? Both Shepard and Cerberus already know about the Reapers, this would be nothing new to them.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Shepard already told them everything he knew.
[/quote]
No, he didn’t. And even if he did, the Council couldn't know that.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Why would they risk tipping their hand to Cerberus when they feel Shepard has already told them everything he knows?
[/quote]
So just because the Council feels that Shepard told everything, that makes it totally true?
The Council didn’t even give Shepard a chance to tell them anything. Shepard just started talking, and they immediately dismissed it and told him that he’s delusional.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
People are meta-gaming too much. We know the Reapers are coming and are bad Mamma Jammas and that everyone has to work together, so we think anyone who does not feel that way is stupid. The council may feel they can handle the reapers on their own. In any case, you do not give sensitive information to enimies. That is rule number 1.
[/quote]
WHere did I say that the Council needs to work together with Cerberus?
I didn't. I guess I implied it but it’s not what I meant.
The point is that keeping Shepard out of anything related to fighting the Reapers is foolish. Shepard is the frontrunner of this war. No one has as much connection to the Reapers as him. Shepard was the one who warned them. He was the one who stopped Saren, defeated Sovereign and saved their lives in the first place.
Doesn't the Council at least suspect why the Reapers wanted Shepard dead at the beggining of ME2?
Cerberus even revived Shepard because they thought he was the only one who could stop them.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The council may feel they can handle the reapers on their own.
[/quote]
Doesn't this make them foolish and arrogant?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Anderson can be made Councilor. If he’s a Councilor then he should know about the Reapers as much as the other three Councilors. He would also know about all the steps the Council is making to fight the Reapers. But during the meeting he tells Shepard that he believes him but that the other Councilors don’t.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
He also did not tell Shepard about the VS on Horizon.
[/quote]
Exactly. He didn’t tell Shepard anything.
He told him the information is classified and that he’s sorry because he can’t tell anything more.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Anderson is not at liberty to say anything he wants.
[/quote]
But he is at liberty to say that he believes in the Reapers. And wasn't he also risking his own career when he called Shepard for the Council meeting?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Or why didn’t we at least get something from… say, I dunno… how about the Shadow Broker’s base which we got in LotSB? At least there we should have been able to confirm this.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Prove it. Show me this smoking gun, or stop using this argument. We have no idea if the shadow Broker has any solid evidence on the Reapers.
[/quote]
Not the point. I was saying that if the Council believed in the Reapers than we should have found out about it from the SB’s base.
What if Shepard shows an audio recording of the Council admitting about the Reapers to the public and thus causing a massive panic? The Council can’t risk that.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Then wouldn’t the Council simply have Shepard checked for that? Aren’t the Council chambers supposed to be secured?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Explain to me why they should even take the risk?
[/quote]
Explain to me what’s the point of having security in the first place if you won’t use it?
And what would the risk be if the security made sure that Shepard doesn’t have an audio recording?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What good does it do them to let Shepard know?
[/quote]
Because no one has as much connection to the Reapers as Shepard, for all they know Shepard could have been investigating for the last two years and have very crucial intel about the Reapers right now, he is willing to work with them, he was one of their best agents, he was the one who stopped Saren adn Sovereign, and because he was at least able to prove that he’s no Cerberus lap dog during the N7 Lost Operative assigment.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Nobody else had as much encounter and connection with the Reapers as Shepard. If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would know this. So, shouldn’t the Council also know that Shepard would have far better evidence to show the public, other than just a lousy audio recording?
Shepard carried out multiple operations against the Reapers, he had suit recording when talking to Sovereign, Benezia, Saren and Vigil. He could have showed those and any other evidences too.
Shepard also had at least one meeting with the Council where they all admit that they believe in the Reapers. Why didn’t he reveal anything to the public back then?
It’s been over two years and Shepard still didn’t do anything about it but the Council now suddenly thinks that Shepard would want it revealed to the public? I don’t see how that makes sense. [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They didn’t think Shep would work for Cerberus either. Now they don’t trust him. How does that not make sense?
[/quote]
So now because they suddenly found out that Shepard works for Cerberus, they think he wants to reveal everything to the public, he wants to cause a massive panic to everyone (including humanity, despite what Cerberus stands for) and that he would certainly need an audio recording for it? No, I still don’t see how that makes sense.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Why doesn’t Councilor Anderson keep his mouth shut? The other Councilors aren’t worried when Anderson admits that he believes in the Reapers. Showing the recording of just one Councilor admitting about the Reapers would be enough for the public to start panic.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Anderson does a lot of things the council does not like. Perhaps this is one of them.
[/quote]
So my point still stands. If the Council was worried that Shepard was making an audio recording then they obviously wouldn’t allow him to leave with it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Shepard wouldn’t even need to record anything from the Council because he can just make a completely false recording about anything. This is proven during Kasumi´s loyalty mission, where her fake recording even bypassed the voice scanner.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What is the logic here? Why should we bother trying to maintain secrets if someone could possibly expose them anyway? That is not a very good mindset to have.
[/quote]
Not the point. If Shepard wanted a mass panic than he would have caused it one way or the other. However the Council looks at it, they would realize that Shepard could have done it anytime he wanted in over the last two years and he still can. But Shepard never did, and if he wanted to he wouldn’t even need an audio recording for it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Why would Shepard do that? I don’t understand; explain why would he want to cause a massive panic? Shepard was always determined to stop and fight the Reapers. Is it because he works with Cerberus? Even Cerberus is fighting against the Reapers and not even they would want to cause a massive panic when it comes to humanity.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You’re meta-gaming again.
[/quote]
How am I metagaming?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How does the council know Cerberus really wants to fight he reapers?
[/quote]
Obviously because Shepard is with them. Because the Reapers are against everyone, including Cerberus.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How do they know Cerberus would not want to expose this in order to discredit the Council?
[/quote]
How would this discredit the Council? Explain. You know what else could discredit the Council badly? Making Shepard, a Cerberus agent, a Spectre. Hey, they don’t seem to mind that.
It’s possible that the Council is ignorant and idiotic. People are known to be like that, they like to believe that nothing is wrong. Look at WW2, the Mongol horde, the first Constitution of USA, etc. Governments did very dumb things in the past.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- The irony of your argument does not escape me.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Really? How do you catch something that is not there? I do not claim the council is full of geniuses, only that the idea they do not believe in the reapers is believable. You seem to think I said the Council was smart for not believing in the Reapers. Again, you should pay more attention to what I am actually saying.
[/quote]
Again, you misunderstand.
You are trying to explain to others why the Council denying the Reapers isn’t crazy. At least, that’s what your title is. Here, you mentioned that even if there was enough evidence to prove that the Reapers exist, the Council still might ignore them completely and pretend how nothing is wrong. Why would they do that? You also used an argument explaining that governments and other people made very bad decisions in the examples you listed. It’s natural that people like to pretend how nothing is wrong. Yet those decisions were unbelievably dumb and crazy. Do you see what I mean?
Again, perhaps you should pay more attention to yourself.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Sure, ignorance is a bliss and denial isn’t only a river in Egypt. I get it. But it doesn’t excuse the bad writing, railroading, Shepard being an idiot and completely tongue-tied.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
When did we start talking about railroading and Shepard being tongue tied… oh wait… you’re just going off topic again.
So instead of arguing why the council should trust a man working for Cerberus, you go off on a tangent about something completely unrelated? classy…
Going off topic again… This is not even arguing my statement.
[/quote]
How am I going off topic?
Shepard not bothering to further prove his loyalty to the Alliance and the Council, Shepard immediately being railroaded to Cerberus, Shepard being a ****** and completely tongue-tied, not gathering any evidence for the Council throughout both ME1 and ME2, destroying the Reaper artifact instead of keeping it, the Council making Shepard a Spectre despite being a Cerberus agent, no mention of the N7 Lost Operative, etc.
All of this is bad writing. They are all connected to each other and to your points as well.
I am talking about bad writing. Do I have to make myself more clear?I know you made these videos after reading a thread where people were discuyssing whether this was a plot hole or bad writing. You even said so in your video that you stumbled on such thread. You explained in your video why you think this isn’t a plot hole or bad writing.
You also wrote in the comments that you made this video because you wanted to show others why it wasn’t a plot hole.
I'll write more of what I missed out later.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
In order for this to be accurate, we would need a general understanding of how advanced the geth are. We don't. Even in ME2 the council races have a very limited understanding of the geth and what they are capable of. Your analogy of the pistols is not very good because it assumes we know the geth are only capable of making 18th century pistols. We would have to have a good idea of the limits of geth tech and we don't.
The council could simply assume that Sovy was a more advanced creation of the geth. The quiarians fly ships that are 300 years old and are probably obsolete compared to some of their newer ships. They are, however, still quarian ships. There is no reason why the Geth do not do the same.
Secondly, no mention of Sovy having organic parts was ever mentioned. This means that what ever pieces of Sovy were left did not contain any organic compounds, so that argument is pointless.
It is a far more likely scenario than Sovy being from a mythical race of machines sent to destroy everyone.
[/quote]
Your comparison to the quarians isn’t right and it makes no sense. The quarians do have poor and inferior ships, but they are forced to have them. They have no planets, no territories, no resources of their own and they cannot find a way to replace them. The geth, on the other hand, have all quarian territories under their control.
Many of the quarians ships are old but they are not as obsolete as you’re saying. Their ships are always modified, recycled, salvaged and kept up to date as much as possible.
Many of their ships aren’t even quarian ships; they are ships which were collected from other aliens.
Sovereign wasn’t just more advanced than other geth ships, it was FAR more advanced.
Why would the geth be using ships, technology and weapons that are so out-of-date when they can build anything so much powerful like Sovereign? It doesn’t make sense.
Today, is there an army that still uses 18th century pistols, 16th century battleships and WW1 tanks? Of course not, and I dont think I need to explain why.
Shepard couldn’t download data from Vigil because the omni-tool wouldn’t have interface for Prothean data. The Protheans communicated telepathically, remember? The reason Shepard and his companion were able to communicate with Vigil was because Vigil adapted himself to match their language.
When Vigil shut down, that system shut down with him. There’s nothing the Council could have gotten from him.
But if you can somehow prove that they were able to get all this information from Vigil, I’ll say it’s a very valid argument.
[quote]
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Shepard says the same thing even if you do not have her. "Grab that data file"
He is referring to the override codes
[/quote]
No, and Shepard says “I’ve got the file. Come on.”
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Other wise, some mention of "Hey I have a data file on the reapers" would have been made at some later point.
[/quote]
Of course it would. Oh wait…
The suit recordings got mentioned and discussed in both ME1 and ME2. Oh wait…
Throughout both ME1 and ME2, Shepard totally bothered to gather and bring a lot of evidences about the Reapers to the Council. Oh wait…
It’s obvious that Legion would say more than just one sentence when meeting the Council… and…it…
Shepard also mentioned binding his mind with the asari Coun… er…. well, and…
Uhm… the least what Shepard did with Chorban was… he…
There’s …….*sigh*
Cerberus wasn’t gonna share the derelict Reaper to the rest of the galaxy. Shepard also destroyed it so he couldn’t show it to the Council.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Shepard collects some research and recordings from the derelict Reaper. He could have shared them with the Council.
I wish there was an option to scan anything with your omni-tool as much as possible and then send it to the Council but the game doesn’t allow it.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Again, you assume that a few recording of Cerberus agents going crazy is enough to convince the council of a fairy tale. The council already studied the pieces of Sovy and concluded he was geth. What makes you think a few scans of the same type of ship would make any difference? there was nothing on the Reaper that screamed out, "Hey! I'm a reaper!"
[/quote]
Where did I say a few scans? Shepard and his companions could have made even more than a hundred scans.
Why would it make a difference? How about because this Reaper isn’t completely dead, it’s much less damaged than Sovereign, it’s mostly in one piece and each Reaper is different
Also, earlier in the mission, both Shepard and companions mentioned that they need to gather as much research as possible which was left from the Cerberus team. Haven’t they done that? Shepard did scan multiple computers.
By the end of Arrival, Shepard knows that the Alliance already knows about the Reapers so what’s the point in convincing the Council?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Do I really have to answer this?
Do you think that the Alliance can stop the Reapers all by themselves?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What? you are completely missing the point. The alliance would have a much greater chance of convincing the council than Shepard ever would. If Shep believes the Alliance knows, then he would let them worry about convincing the council. [/quote]
You didn’t mention any of this in your videos.
Where was it mentioned that the Alliance will even be trying to convince the Council? Nowhere.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
In addition, Arrival happens after the events of ME2 (confirmed by more than one developer). this means we do not know if the council is still denying it or if the Alliance has convinced them other wise.
[/quote]
Show me where Bioware truly confirmed that it’s canon, because Arrival can be played right after Horizon. If so, then just great. They tell us that all our decisions matter and that there’s no such thing as canon, only to tell us once again that some people were playing their game “wrong”.
Stay consistent Bioware.
What other evidences does the Council have as far as evidence goes except for Shepard’s words? None!
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Everyone knows that the Protheins went extinct but don’t know how or why. An entire advanced species which had an empire stretched across the whole galaxy just simply disappeared! Doesn’t that raise any red flags?
What about these:
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Helyme
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Eingana
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Armeni
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Etamis
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Atahil
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Joab
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Aphras
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Bothros
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Tosal_Nym
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Gaelon
http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Klendagon
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Vecchio
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Gamayun
http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Junthor
I think there are more planets which I could add but I won’t bother finding them.
The Protheans aren’t the only spacefaring species known to exist. There were other mass extinctions around the galaxy which span for millions and millions of years.
Sure, you can argue that someone other than the Reapers could have caused these extinctions, but then what happened to them? Where are they now?
Every one of these species vanished, with very little traces left behind of their existence. It’s as if someone wanted it all covered up.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What is your point here? Would it raise red flags? Maybe among historians. Would it cause governments to believe mythical machines are coming to kill them? Hardly.
You know what they would say? They would say, "that's an interesting theory... show me proof that it was all caused by giant machines."
[/quote]
It would raise red flags among many people. Why wouldn't it? All this certainly isn't a coincidence and it musn't be ignored.
Does it show undeniable proof of the Reapers? No.
Does it at least show that there’s something very odd about all this? Yes.
Does it show a possibility for the Reapers existence? Yes.
Does it match what Shepard says? Definitely, and it makes Shepard’s claims much less deserving to be air quoted. And why call Shepard delusional and insane?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- There’s Ilos. The last survivbing Protheans used the site and spent decades to research anything they possibly could about the Reapers and ways to prevent their next invasion. The reason Vigil shut down was because he lost power, but losing power doesn’t destroy a computer. Powering up should have given them access to everything. Or couldn’t they at least recover data from hardware? But if all this was impossible for some unknown reasons, Shepard still had suit recording and he downloaded data from Vigil before leaving.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
And how do you "power up" a prothean computer? Do you know?
[/quote]
Do I know how to power up a Prothean computer?
What kind of question is that?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Because the council sure didn't. They stated they went to Illos and could not get anything out of Vigil. If you think they went there pokes him, saw nothing happened, and just went home then you are being silly. they investigated Illos. They tried to talk to Vigil. they could not. Again, you would have to show that they should have been able to, which you can't. [/quote]
All galactic species have based their technology on the Protheans. Many Prothean ruins were discovered, explored, studied and their technology was reverse-engineered. This is how humanity and other alien species mastered space travel in the first place. They also based their technologies on the mass relays, just like the Protheans did.
But the Council didn’t know how to simply restore power? Right, silly me for thinking about it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Cerberus News:
“Historians and astronomers alike are abuzz tonight over a new paper published by Dr. Amanda Kenson of the University of Arcturus. Her team claims that by testing the dust trapped in the gravity wells around a mass relay, and comparing its composition to that of dust clouds in the same system, scientists can create a timeline of when the relay passed through the dust. Her conclusion? "Only a small fraction of the mass effect relays date back 50,000 years," she writes, "The majority are far older, indicating they were created by a species predating even the Protheans." Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice met the information with skepticism: "While Dr. Kenson's methods appear sound, the asari tried a similar procedure centuries ago and discounted it. What civilization could have spanned the galaxy for not thousands, but millions of years? If this were the case, we should have found mountains of evidence of their passing. Where is this species now?”[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Umm… this actually hurts your case. Even though WE know she is right, most people have discounted her findings.
[/quote]
Fine, my bad. So here are two more then:
“Reactions to the discovery that mass relays were not created by the Prothean civilization continue to pour in. On Kahje, the response is largely denial and shock. Religious leader All-Bright Olos the 10th, the Sounaril of the Manas tradition, reacted by uploading a 13-minute speech to the newsnets that urged calm and peace. "It is no heresy to say the Enkindlers themselves may have been Enkindled," the hanar said. "It is their example of selflessness, courtesy, and willingness to share their gifts that teaches these ones how to live. To say there was something before them, an even more noble being, gives these penitents an even swifter current to ride, a greater model to which we can all aspire."”
“Evidence continues to mount that the system of mass relays attributed to the Protheans predate their civilization. Dr. Aurana T'Meles of the University of Serrice, a one-time skeptic of the claim, now says she's a convert. "This team has been meticulous in dating relays from many locations," she says in her findings. "It is not their responsibility to hypothesize who created the relays, only to isolate the eras of their construction." Such hypotheses abound and usually feature disappeared species like the arthenn or zeioph. Nearly all have been ruled out since they did not coexist with the oldest of the relays. Dr. Amanda Kenson, team lead for the initial discovery, could not be reached for comment at broadcast time.”
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- There are some evidences about the Reapers in Keiji’s greybox.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
As far as I know, we have yet o decode it, so at he moment, it is still hidden in Keiji’s memories. We don’t know what we have so we can’t use this as evidence.
[/quote]
The graybox was cracked, Keiji’s memories and secrrets are open for use. They just have to look and find it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- We took over the Shadow Broker’s base in LotSB. There are evidences there.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Liara only stated that the Shadow Broker knew about he reapers. We have no idea how, or how solid the evidence is. For al we know it could simply be circumstantial evidence that would not be enough for the council. I agree, that it raises some eye brows, but until we know what information the SB had we have no idea if it would be useful to persuade the council with.
[/quote]
I seriously doubt that there’s nothing about the Reapers. The SB has more connections across the galaxy than both the Council and Cerberus combined. He had connections within Cerberus, the Normandy and the Council. We can even see from one of the vids that the SB had a drone aboard the derelict Reaper. He made deals with the Collectors and tried to stop Saren.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- What about the Cerberus files aboard the Normandy?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What about them? Did you see any files on the Normandy with reaper evidence? I sure didn’t.
[/quote]
There are a lot of databases about Cerberus and the Collectors aboard the Normandy. Since Shepard is leading the operation, Cerberus would also need to provide him with as much intel as possible if they want the operation to be successful. Doesn’t Shepard have access to many of it anyways?
One of the closest things the playuers got from the game would be the Codex entries. Here’s one that catches my attention:
“While monitoring outgoing transmissions sent by the mysterious leader of the Collectors to his minions on the battlefield, Cerberus intelligence experts also intercepted incoming transmissions. The signals were encrypted commands sent to the Collector General from a source outside the galaxy.
Now this would have been a good evidence if Shepard bothered getting it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Legion and his geth believe in the Reapers since they had an encounter with Sovereign. Shepard could have at least asked Legion to get some evidences from them. And why didn’t Legion tell more than just one sentence when meeting the Council?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Assuming you actually had Legion? He is a geth. Why would the council believe anything he says. In order to prove such things, the Geth would have to show detailed schematics of their ships so a comparison can be made. I doubt the Geth want to give the Council sensitive information like that.
[/quote]
Don’t you think there could be other evidences?
Very little is known about the geth. No one has ever spoken to one before, the least it should have done was spark interest. Oddly, the salarian Councilor was willing to come up with a different assumption based on what Legion said.
One of the main things I wanted Legion to do was show how Sovereign and Saren approached the geth and tried gaining them as allies. Legion could have also proved how the heretics worshipped Sovereign, how they believed that Sovereign was a Reaper and their god. I always wondered why the Council couldn’t at least verify this by themselves.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
There is not a single piece of solid evidence in this entire list. It is all speculation, possible connections, or information received at he end of the game so we have no idea what has been done with it. Nothing in this list clearly points to Reapers, and thus, there is no mountain of evidence.
[/quote]
I disagtree almost completely.
In your videos, you didn’t even mention anything about the evidences Shepard gathered at the “end” of ME2.
The game also doesn’t end right after the suicide mission. You can still do any side missions, loyalty missions and the DLCs.
I think another thing I should have mentioned are the Dragon’s teeth. In ME1, wasn't it confirmed that they aren't made by geth since they have little resemblance to their technology?
One more thing that irritates me to no end is the N7 Abondoned Mine. In it, Shepard finds a Reaper artifact which indoctrinated the science team and turned them into husks. Great evidence to show to the Council, right? But what does Shepard do instead? He blows it up and buries it under rubble, for no reason.
According to the Codex, the Reaper artifact from Arrival was very resilient to damage, so perhaps this artifact wasn’t destroyed but just buried under rubble. Either way, Shepard mentions noting about it to the Council.
There was a similar side mission in ME1. What happened to that? There seems to be a lot of Reaper artifacts scattered across the galaxy. There are mentions of machine cultists and how people traveled across the galaxy and ended up finding artifacts which turned them into monsters. Even your squadmates tell this.
How come the Council hasn’t found these artifacts and studied them?
I could add far more evidences than I already gave but it would be too time consuming to write them down. Most of those evidences are not that strong anyways. And I’m apparently not allowed to use anything unless it was specifically mentioned in the games.
What government would follow the words of just one man?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Saren, their former top Spectre, believed it. Benezia, a well-respected 1000 year old matriarch, also believed it. [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The council believe Saren is using it to have his way with the geth and Shepard. They do not think he actually believes in the Reapers.[/quote]
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The geth believe it.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Again, the council stated it is probable that Saren used the story of Reapers to manipulate the geth.
[/quote]
They didn't say that it’s probable, they really DO believe that. Which is arrogant, illogical and very idiotic of them.
For the past 200-300 years, the geth killed anyone who entered their space without warning, but Saren got a pass. Was it because he’s that charming for them?
Saren being so compelling and charismatic that he convinced millions and millions of AI’s that the Reapers are totally real and that he’s the prophet for their return. Yeah… that makes perfect sense.
Since you’re arguing that Reapers are fairy tales and unicorns, then you’re also arguing that Saren convinced the geth that organic fairy tales are totally real, that magical robot unicorns are their gods and that he’s the prophet for their return. Which makes the Council’s statement even more retarded.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The Alliance believes it and they are preparing for war.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
At the end of the game. When we find out he alliance believe it we have no way of seeing if they have convinced the council or not. We have no idea if their stance has changed or not. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.
[/quote]
We don’t know if the Alliance will be trying to convince the Council, or what they really have at their disposal. Therefore, you cannot use this argument.
For all we know, the Alliance could have been preparing for months or even since Shepard’s death. And don't forget that Anderson didn't manage to convince the other Councilors to believe in the Reapers.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Shepard’s entire crew, which are composed of one of the best and most skillful people in the galaxy, also believe in the Reapers. I wish Samara could have had a talk with the asari Councilor because the word of a Justicar would go unquestioned.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
When did she ever say she believed in the reapers? She believed in the collectors, that is all.
[/quote]
Here you go. If that doesn’t suffice then take her to the derelict Reaper and listen to her dialogue.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
In fact, there are many people throughout the galaxy who believe in the Reapers. It’s shown in both the books and the game that rumors about the Reapers are being spread everywhere.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So…. Governments should base policy decisions on rumors now? A lot of people believe 2012 is the end of the world… perhaps the government should start telling everyone to prepare for it. It does not matter if people believe it if they have no evidence to back it up.
[/quote]
Did I say that? Nope, and I neither think so. I clearly wrote down what my point is but you decided to waste time and argue beside it anyway.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
The point I’m trying to make is that Shepard isn’t the only person who believes in the Reapers. So I would suggest you to stop saying that.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m sorry, could you point out where I said Shepard was the only person who believed in the Reapers? You can’t? Oh… that must be because I never said that. You should pay more attention to what I am or am not saying.
[/quote]
My apologies.
However… it’s not something you specifically said, but it is what you implied. So on the other hand, perhaps you should pay more attention to what you’re saying or not saying.
It’s possible that the Council does know about the Reapers but they don’t want to reveal anything to the public so they wouldn’t cause massive panic.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would be taking actions to prepare for the invasion. This would be a galaxy-wide operation. There would be a massive increase in building ships and planetary defenses, massive increase in recruitment and military training, massive investment in weapons research and technology, increase in partnership and cooperation with many, etc. Basically, the Council would be gathering and using every available resource to prepare for the coming war.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Possibly. Or they could believe the reapers exist but not be willing to publicly admit with out proper evidence. They could be scrambling to gather enough evidence to convince the other races of the attack, or they could be make preparations in secret to avoid panic. There are a lot of things they COULD be doing, so you should not assume that there is only one possible course of action.
[/quote]
If the Council is truly aware of t he the Reapers, then I just hope they’re planning something much better than “We fight or we die, that’s the plan!”
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- The Council would know that no one else had as much encounter and experience with the Reapers as Shepard. Hell, the reason Cerberus even brought Shepard back from the dead was because they believed he was the only person who could stop the Reapers.
He was gone for two years, and for all they know Shepard might have been investigating all that time and right now have very crucial information about the Reapers. Shepard is also willing to work with them, so isn’t it dumb that they decided to ignore him completely?
Shepard is with Cerberus, but Cerberus is also fighting against the Reapers, which are the much greater evil. Keeping Shepard out of anything related to combating the Reapers is foolish.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the council. Shepard now works for them. Why would they tell any sensitive information?
[/quote]
How is it that telling Shepard that they know about the Reapers is giving any sensitive information to Cerberus? Both Shepard and Cerberus already know about the Reapers, this would be nothing new to them.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Shepard already told them everything he knew.
[/quote]
No, he didn’t. And even if he did, the Council couldn't know that.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Why would they risk tipping their hand to Cerberus when they feel Shepard has already told them everything he knows?
[/quote]
So just because the Council feels that Shepard told everything, that makes it totally true?
The Council didn’t even give Shepard a chance to tell them anything. Shepard just started talking, and they immediately dismissed it and told him that he’s delusional.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
People are meta-gaming too much. We know the Reapers are coming and are bad Mamma Jammas and that everyone has to work together, so we think anyone who does not feel that way is stupid. The council may feel they can handle the reapers on their own. In any case, you do not give sensitive information to enimies. That is rule number 1.
[/quote]
WHere did I say that the Council needs to work together with Cerberus?
I didn't. I guess I implied it but it’s not what I meant.
The point is that keeping Shepard out of anything related to fighting the Reapers is foolish. Shepard is the frontrunner of this war. No one has as much connection to the Reapers as him. Shepard was the one who warned them. He was the one who stopped Saren, defeated Sovereign and saved their lives in the first place.
Doesn't the Council at least suspect why the Reapers wanted Shepard dead at the beggining of ME2?
Cerberus even revived Shepard because they thought he was the only one who could stop them.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The council may feel they can handle the reapers on their own.
[/quote]
Doesn't this make them foolish and arrogant?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Anderson can be made Councilor. If he’s a Councilor then he should know about the Reapers as much as the other three Councilors. He would also know about all the steps the Council is making to fight the Reapers. But during the meeting he tells Shepard that he believes him but that the other Councilors don’t.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
He also did not tell Shepard about the VS on Horizon.
[/quote]
Exactly. He didn’t tell Shepard anything.
He told him the information is classified and that he’s sorry because he can’t tell anything more.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Anderson is not at liberty to say anything he wants.
[/quote]
But he is at liberty to say that he believes in the Reapers. And wasn't he also risking his own career when he called Shepard for the Council meeting?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Or why didn’t we at least get something from… say, I dunno… how about the Shadow Broker’s base which we got in LotSB? At least there we should have been able to confirm this.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Prove it. Show me this smoking gun, or stop using this argument. We have no idea if the shadow Broker has any solid evidence on the Reapers.
[/quote]
Not the point. I was saying that if the Council believed in the Reapers than we should have found out about it from the SB’s base.
What if Shepard shows an audio recording of the Council admitting about the Reapers to the public and thus causing a massive panic? The Council can’t risk that.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Then wouldn’t the Council simply have Shepard checked for that? Aren’t the Council chambers supposed to be secured?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Explain to me why they should even take the risk?
[/quote]
Explain to me what’s the point of having security in the first place if you won’t use it?
And what would the risk be if the security made sure that Shepard doesn’t have an audio recording?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What good does it do them to let Shepard know?
[/quote]
Because no one has as much connection to the Reapers as Shepard, for all they know Shepard could have been investigating for the last two years and have very crucial intel about the Reapers right now, he is willing to work with them, he was one of their best agents, he was the one who stopped Saren adn Sovereign, and because he was at least able to prove that he’s no Cerberus lap dog during the N7 Lost Operative assigment.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Nobody else had as much encounter and connection with the Reapers as Shepard. If the Council believed in the Reapers then they would know this. So, shouldn’t the Council also know that Shepard would have far better evidence to show the public, other than just a lousy audio recording?
Shepard carried out multiple operations against the Reapers, he had suit recording when talking to Sovereign, Benezia, Saren and Vigil. He could have showed those and any other evidences too.
Shepard also had at least one meeting with the Council where they all admit that they believe in the Reapers. Why didn’t he reveal anything to the public back then?
It’s been over two years and Shepard still didn’t do anything about it but the Council now suddenly thinks that Shepard would want it revealed to the public? I don’t see how that makes sense. [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They didn’t think Shep would work for Cerberus either. Now they don’t trust him. How does that not make sense?
[/quote]
So now because they suddenly found out that Shepard works for Cerberus, they think he wants to reveal everything to the public, he wants to cause a massive panic to everyone (including humanity, despite what Cerberus stands for) and that he would certainly need an audio recording for it? No, I still don’t see how that makes sense.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Why doesn’t Councilor Anderson keep his mouth shut? The other Councilors aren’t worried when Anderson admits that he believes in the Reapers. Showing the recording of just one Councilor admitting about the Reapers would be enough for the public to start panic.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Anderson does a lot of things the council does not like. Perhaps this is one of them.
[/quote]
So my point still stands. If the Council was worried that Shepard was making an audio recording then they obviously wouldn’t allow him to leave with it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Shepard wouldn’t even need to record anything from the Council because he can just make a completely false recording about anything. This is proven during Kasumi´s loyalty mission, where her fake recording even bypassed the voice scanner.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What is the logic here? Why should we bother trying to maintain secrets if someone could possibly expose them anyway? That is not a very good mindset to have.
[/quote]
Not the point. If Shepard wanted a mass panic than he would have caused it one way or the other. However the Council looks at it, they would realize that Shepard could have done it anytime he wanted in over the last two years and he still can. But Shepard never did, and if he wanted to he wouldn’t even need an audio recording for it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Why would Shepard do that? I don’t understand; explain why would he want to cause a massive panic? Shepard was always determined to stop and fight the Reapers. Is it because he works with Cerberus? Even Cerberus is fighting against the Reapers and not even they would want to cause a massive panic when it comes to humanity.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You’re meta-gaming again.
[/quote]
How am I metagaming?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How does the council know Cerberus really wants to fight he reapers?
[/quote]
Obviously because Shepard is with them. Because the Reapers are against everyone, including Cerberus.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How do they know Cerberus would not want to expose this in order to discredit the Council?
[/quote]
How would this discredit the Council? Explain. You know what else could discredit the Council badly? Making Shepard, a Cerberus agent, a Spectre. Hey, they don’t seem to mind that.
It’s possible that the Council is ignorant and idiotic. People are known to be like that, they like to believe that nothing is wrong. Look at WW2, the Mongol horde, the first Constitution of USA, etc. Governments did very dumb things in the past.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- The irony of your argument does not escape me.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Really? How do you catch something that is not there? I do not claim the council is full of geniuses, only that the idea they do not believe in the reapers is believable. You seem to think I said the Council was smart for not believing in the Reapers. Again, you should pay more attention to what I am actually saying.
[/quote]
Again, you misunderstand.
You are trying to explain to others why the Council denying the Reapers isn’t crazy. At least, that’s what your title is. Here, you mentioned that even if there was enough evidence to prove that the Reapers exist, the Council still might ignore them completely and pretend how nothing is wrong. Why would they do that? You also used an argument explaining that governments and other people made very bad decisions in the examples you listed. It’s natural that people like to pretend how nothing is wrong. Yet those decisions were unbelievably dumb and crazy. Do you see what I mean?
Again, perhaps you should pay more attention to yourself.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
- Sure, ignorance is a bliss and denial isn’t only a river in Egypt. I get it. But it doesn’t excuse the bad writing, railroading, Shepard being an idiot and completely tongue-tied.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
When did we start talking about railroading and Shepard being tongue tied… oh wait… you’re just going off topic again.
So instead of arguing why the council should trust a man working for Cerberus, you go off on a tangent about something completely unrelated? classy…
Going off topic again… This is not even arguing my statement.
[/quote]
How am I going off topic?
Shepard not bothering to further prove his loyalty to the Alliance and the Council, Shepard immediately being railroaded to Cerberus, Shepard being a ****** and completely tongue-tied, not gathering any evidence for the Council throughout both ME1 and ME2, destroying the Reaper artifact instead of keeping it, the Council making Shepard a Spectre despite being a Cerberus agent, no mention of the N7 Lost Operative, etc.
All of this is bad writing. They are all connected to each other and to your points as well.
I am talking about bad writing. Do I have to make myself more clear?I know you made these videos after reading a thread where people were discuyssing whether this was a plot hole or bad writing. You even said so in your video that you stumbled on such thread. You explained in your video why you think this isn’t a plot hole or bad writing.
You also wrote in the comments that you made this video because you wanted to show others why it wasn’t a plot hole.
I'll write more of what I missed out later.
Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 28 octobre 2011 - 08:47 .
#203
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 12:01
seirhart
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- Members
- 655 messages
I agree with this I see it as the council denying the existence if shepard got captured and the council alien or other wise said that they have been preparing for the reapers and the reapers found out. What I see here is that the reapers might speed up there timetable on their invasion. Sure the evidence that the alien races and the other races preparing for their invasion might not concern them but I think they would speed up their invasion for the simple reason of catching the resistance's pants down if you will.
#204
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 02:24
Guest_Trust_*
Guest_Trust_*
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- Guests
Second video
Suit recordings don’t prove anything.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Really? I mean… really?![/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, really really
[/quote]
Then let’s at least analyze something from them, shall we?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about the conversation with Shiala? We find out that Saren wanted her and the Thorian dead because he didn’t want Shepard to understand the visions and to prevent him from following his steps. The visions are what brought Saren and Shepard to Ilos in the first place. Shiala also mentions something about Sovereign, indoctrination and why Benezia exactly joined up with Saren.
What about the entire conversation with Benezia, especially when she breaks out of indoctrination and gives us an OSD with the location of the Mu Relay? The conversation confirms the indoctrination and what Shiala said.
There’s a conversation with Rana Thanoptis where they talk about indoctrination and how she was researching it for Saren.
What about Saren when he himself admits everything?
What about the encounter with Sovereign from Saren’s personal quarters.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So what?
[/quote]
The suit recordings absolutely mustn’t be ignored. By analyzing the suit recordings, the Council would realize that they only match with Shepard’s statements and Shepard’s statements ONLY.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
At most, this would simply prove that Saren believes it.
[/quote]
Oh, there's more to them than that.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You need proof that the reapers exist. Not proof that Saren thinks they do. Not proof that Shepard thinks they do, but proof that they REALLY do. The idea that two people went crazy and managed to convince other to go along for the ride, is far more believable then giant machines actually coming to kill everyone.
I can show you proof all day long that someone believes 2012 is coming. That does not mean that it is.
[/quote]
Not even arguing with my points.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about the part where Kirrahe’s men sided with the geth and tried to kill you?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
It proves they were brainwashed, nothing more.
[/quote]
Excuse me, what? Not sure I understand so can you elaborate?
Are you saying that other species are capable of brainwashing like indoctrination? No, they aren’t.
Do I have to remind you how big and serious the deal behind indoctrination is, especially during war?
You’re ignoring the part with Benezia, Shiala, Saren, Rana, Vigil, the symptoms, the other prisoners at Virmire and coming across a secret base where Saren was clearly studying indoctrination.
Shepard fought salarians who were Kirrahe’s men. He comes to the cells where he meets others who were imprisoned in order to study the effects. You can talk to some of them too.
There’s also Ganto Imness, the prisoner who was forced to watch others as the indoctrination affects them. He doesn’t say that they were brainwashed, but that they were indoctrinated. He calls it a much greater threat than the krogans.
You said it yourself that indoctrination could be proven. What point are you trying to make overall?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
And the biggest of all, what about the confrontation with Vigil, a 50 000 years old Prothean VI?
Vigil confirmed everything that happened throughout ME1. He confirmed the beacons, visions, Reapers, indoctrination, Sovereign, the Conduit, Saren’s “made up” story and everything else.
Vigil also tells you how Saren and Sovereign have planned to attack the Citadel and he even gives you a data file which helped against Sovereign.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
A video tape of one computer saying Reapers exist does not make it so. As I said in the video, it is enough to make them curious and investigate.
[/quote]
An untampered video of a 50 000 year old prothean computer from a planet which no one visited before, and which confirmed everything throughout ME1 only made them curious?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How does a prothean computer giving Shepard a prothean data package that controls what people believe to be a prothean space station prove the reapers exsit?
[/quote]
They don't think it's a prothean station.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about THIS? After that, we shoot Saren again to make sure he’s dead but then… he starts coming back from the dead… and transforms into some kind of thing and says “I am Sovereign! And this station is MINE!”
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Them Geth can do some funky things. Much easier to believe that then ancient Reapers.
[/quote]
Which was a process similar to the Dragon’s Teeth, but wasn’t it confirmed in ME1 that Dragon’s teeth aren’t geth technology?
Either way, that certainly doesn’t explain the part with Sovereign and when Saren committed suicide.
Vigil says that he’s prothean. Just because something says that it’s Prothean doesn’t mean that it’s Prothean. The Council couldn’t verify it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Riiiiight.
The site is 50 000 years old and the entire ruin is Prothean. Each galactic species studied countless other Prothean ruins so far. Do you think that they wouldn’t be able to compare something and see? There are also dead Protheins inside the sleper pods, they could just take DNA samples and match them with the ones they found from other ruins.
Yes, they can easily verify it
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m not saying they can’t figure out it was a computer on a prothean world.[/quote]
You said they couldn't find out that Vigil was prothean.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m saying that without actually talking to Vigil, they cannot verify that what Shepard saw was not a decoy planted by Saren.
I know what you are saying, “That’s silly! Why would the council believe Saren would go through all that trouble?”
Because it is a more likely explanation that Giant Reapers.
[/quote]
Are you saying Saren was an expert in Prothean computer programming?
The word ‘silly’ doesn’t cut it, by far. That "decoy" also gave Shepard a data file which sabotaged Saren's plan to take over the Citadel. I would suggest you to come up with a different argument because this doesn’t help you one bit.
It would be like a judge saying that there’s a video tape of a suspect saying that he’s innocent -- so he must be innocent!
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
It depends on the video, of course.
But do you remember what it took to prove Saren’s guilt to the Council?
Councilor Velarn: “Some quarian just showed an audio recording where Saren admits that he’s guilty! IT’S IRREFUTABLE!” [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
This argument again…
[/quote]
It fits your argument. That’s what I'm trying to say.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Do people really think that the tape was not checked for authenticity?
[/quote]
I'm not sure about it. It wasn't mentioned anywhere in the game.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
This is not CSI. The game is not going to show you some lab coat going over the tape and confirming it is really his voice.
[/quote]
Who asked for that? I don’t know anyone on the forums who wondered why the game didn’t show a CSI like lab coat confirmation. One simple dialogue would have been enough. But then again, it would still be pointless. Kasumi had the ability to pass the scanning device itself. Udina might as well have shown apossibly photoshoped photo of Saren on Eden Prime and that would have been enough.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The game just assumes you are smart enough to figure that out.
[/quote]
Really? The game assumes I’m smart enough for that? That’s odd.
It certainly doesn’t assume I’m smart enough to figure out that Zaeed is aiming with his blind eye, that Nihlus’ shields were supposed to protect him from Saren’s shot, that the Codex entry for thermal clips is utterly retarded, the magic behind asari reproduction, how bizarre it was for the whole team to take a shuttle out for a non-existent mission, that Ken jumped out of the wall in order to look cool, that Joker shouldn’t be capable of lifting a metal beam due to his Vrolik syndrome, TIM’s horrible plan for the suicide mission, that going half naked in vacuum and toxic environments is bad for your health, the leap of logic behind Saren’s trial, that Miranda made it painfully clear how Shepard is the most important person on the station but then tells him he can rot with the mechs, etc.
Well, you’ll have to excuse me if I find your point hard to swallow.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, Kasumi has the ability to copy voice to a limited degree. Even with her cool tech it took an entire speech to make one word. How much would it take to make an entire conversation?
[/quote]
Limited? No, that wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the game.
I take it you missed the part where Kasumi fooled the guard by using the voice of Chief Roe.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Just because the best thief in the galaxy has the ability to forge something does not mean everyone assumes all voices are fake now. There are some people out there that can make flawless IDs these days. Does this mean courts just assume any ID is fake?
[/quote]
Your point? Saren wasn't some guy that robbed a supermarket or an underage kid who was caught entering an adult club. He’s was a Spectre, their best one, accused for siding with the geth and for attacking a human colony. The trial and the accusations against him were BIG. It would require a high amount of evidence, or at least some very reliable ones, in order to prove his guilt. But all the Council needed was a single audio recording, which could have been easily faked, to conclude that the evidence is irrefutable and that he’s guilty.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Beleiving a Spector has gone rogue is nowhere near the same as believing Reapers are coming.
[/quote]
I know.
But it’s still quite funny if you think about it. It took just oneeasily forgeable audio recording to convince the Council that it’s irrefutable that their best Spectre was guilty.
Yet they have suit recordings, there are marks of mass extinctions and ancient wars all across the galaxy, they have Ilos, Sovereign, evidence showing that the relays pre-date the Protheans… and they give Shepard the air quotes.
Saren saw Shepard’s reports. He knew that Shepard believed in the Reapers so he decided to keep on messing with him. That conversation with Sovereign on Virmire can be easily dismissed as a VI programmed by Saren to keep on fooling Shepard.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
So… Saren prepares a hologram “Reaper” VI in his very own personal quarters in a super top secret base. He does this so he could further mess around with Shepard… just in case, huh? Despite the very small chance that Shepard would be capable of finding the base and if he would personally manage to come all the way to Saren’s personal quarters. Is that what you’re saying?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I am saying that that is easier to believe than the idea that it was really a Reaper. You are failing to grasp just how difficult it would be to convince someone of the Reapers. Almost any possible explanation would be considered more likely than the Idea that the Reapers really do exist.
[/quote]
I do understand how difficult it can be. But after what Sovereign pulled off at the Battle of the Citadel, it shouldn’t be so hard.
Even the Codex mentions that there were speculations over the tabloid media on how Sovereign was an extragalactic invader, due to its overwhelming power. Such beliefs remain to this day.
What I don’t think you understand is how unbelievable your argument is. You also said it yourself that it could be easily dismissed as Saren trying to mess with Shepard. I beg to differ.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Why Saren simply didn’t set up a bomb or some other kind of trap is never dwelled upon.
In the same room, Shepard found another beacon just like the one on Eden Prime for which Saren and the geth started a war. Why Saren was dumb enough to leave that in the room if he was expecting Shepard to come is also never questioned.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You are missing the point. A video tape of a hologram would never be enough to convince ANYONE that mythical beasts are coming to eat us.
[/quote]
What? I’m the missing point? That’s funny; it’s the exact same thing I was thinking about you. Let’s have a look… oh, I see.
Sorry Squee, but I’m not falling for it.
No, that wasn’t your original argument. You’re trying to change your original argument and you’re pretending that the point of it was something completely different.
Convincing the Council to believe in the Reapers is the same as convincing them to believe in fairy tales and robot unicorns coming to kill us all.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
You know… I’ll admit that saying how an ancient alien race coming to kill us all may sound crazy, but please, you’re over exaggerating it to the absolute extreme.
Seriously, cut the hyperbole.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What exaggeration? How is saying that A race of Giant Machines come once every 50,000 years to wipe everything out any easier to believe than saying Magical dragons are coming to kill us all? Reapers are a myth in the Mass Effect universe. This is taken from the codex, “A myth common to several cultures in the galaxy, Reapers were imagined to be space monsters who consumed entire stars.”
I am not exaggerating, there is no difference in how they would view Reapers or Dragons, or any other fairy tail or myth.
[/quote]
You are exaggerating. What you’re also doing is twisting words and meanings in order to make the belief about the Reapers to seem as much ludicrous as possible, just so it could help your argument.
I know what the Codex says about the Reapers. I read it and there’s nothing about fairy tales or something as ridiculous as magical robot unicorns.
So let’s clarify at least something
Myth =/= Fairy tale
If I brought a magical robot unicorn who admitted everything in front of the Congress then people would think it’s a prank. They could dissect it and most would say that it’s Japanese.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What you are ignoring is probability. Everyone would be in awe, yes. But they would think it is far more likely that someone on Earth made it, than the idea that it is an advanced space robot. People believe in what they understand. They understand other humans and their ability to do amazing things. They do not understand or comprehend space robots so they are far more likely to attach an explanation that fits what they understand.
[/quote]
This is way beyond than just doing amazing things.
People know each other and they also know each other’s limitations. They know what humans are capable of and what they’re absolutely NOT. When something would exceed those limitations and capabilities, especially by far, they would quickly realize that it’s something not human and/or not made by humans.
Do I have to write a whole essay for you? Should I at least explain Clarke’s Third Law to you since you didn’t know about it?
No wait, scratch all that. Hell, I don’t even know why I’m bothering to write a reply here.
I’ll just say that if an advanced alien race suddenly paid us a visit then we’ll know that they’re aliens, especially if they wished to prove it.
It would take a mountain of evidence in order for the Council to believe that the Reapers exist.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I don’t understand how you can say that when you don’t even know what they have. Pieces of Sovy, that is it. You have no knowledge of what that entails, or how they should be able to tell it apart from Geth ships. You have no idea how the ships were designed, how similar or different they are, or what methods the council have at their disposal for determining this.
[/quote]
Please, go on.
Explain to me how Sovereign, a ship which is FAR more advanced and completely ALIEN to the geth, is actually a geth ship.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
All you know is that they look different and one had a lot more fire power then the others. That is the only information you can gain from the game.
[/quote]
I could add more to that list. It’s certainly not much, but still. It’s more than enough to know that they are completely alien to each other and that one is far more advanced than the others. If you can explain those then I’ll drop it.
As a note, saying that one had a lot more firepower isn’t correct. The firepower was also completely different. Like I said before, the geth didn’t even use thanix cannons, which are a mini version of the weapon that Sovereign used. If the geth bothered to use thanix cannons then the battle near the end of ME1 would have played much more in their favor. What does the Council think about that? That the geth suck when it comes to military strategy?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Everything else is speculation on what you THINK should be.[/quote]
...I honestly didn’t expect to get this from a guy who spends his time making and defending his own subjective fanfiction.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They Believe the Reapers do not exsit. They believe this because they have not seen sufficient proof to make them believe otherwise. That is al this thread is dealing with.
[/quote]
That’s all this thread is about? Then why did you argue against bad writing and that it’s possible for the Council to believe in the Reapers? Oh well, I’ll try to avoid mentioning bad writing here.
Is it that the Council has not seen enough evidence or is it that they ignore it? Have they even bothered investigating and doing a proper research? Is it because they can’t accept them? Is it too troublesome for them to go look and find it themselves? Are they incompetent?
I remember a post where a guy or gal explained all this but since I can’t find it I’ll just have to go with what I remember. I think it was @General User but I’m not sure.
People argue that the burden of proof is on Shepard. But Shepard’s true task isn’t to research and prove the Reapers existence. His task is military, which he does extremely well.
The Council’s role is inquisitorial in nature. It's their duty and their task to investigate, especially after what happened near the end of ME1 and because of what Sovereign managed to pull off.
It was their task to find out and accurately determine the events and circumstances that were surrounding and leading up to the Battle of the Citadel. Which is something they failed miserably; despite having every evidence, clue, trail and connection to properly guide them.
The same thing can be said for their task to investigate and discover about the Reapers. There are signs and evidences all across the galaxy but it seems that no one except for Shepard and Cerberus are truly willing to investigate them.
Alright, the Council says they went to Ilos, they tried to talk to Vigil and… that’s just about it? Uhm… ok. Why only Vigil?
What about Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, rest of Ilos and multiple other uncharted worlds that Shepard visited? If they launched such an investigation then they would have at least discovered a ton of evidences that would support Shepard’s claims. Why would it? It has to, because Shepard’s claims are true.
Why didn’t the Council send a lot of spy drones deep inside geth space? Why not arrest Shiala and put her for questioning? What about following Saren’s footsteps, digging into his records and past to get leads? Why not investigate the Collectors and colony abductions? Why didn’t they investigate planets such as Klendagon? If they investigated the Great Rift valley, which was caused by an ancient and very powerful mass accelerator weapon, they would have discovered the derelict Reaper like Cerberus did. Both the Shadow Broker and Legion’s geth were capable of finding the derelict Reaper. Why couldn’t they find other Reaper artifacts like Shepard and Cerberus did throughout ME1 and ME2? Amanda Kenson and her team followed a rumor and thanks to that they too managed to find a Reaper artifact in batarian space.
In ME1, Shepard was their only agent sent to stop Saren and to investigate the matter. He investigated and made forward a version and explanation of events that is matched by every single piece of physical and recorded evidence that is available.
The Council knows very little about the geth, they know nothing what’s going on in geth space, they don’t know how Saren recruited the geth, how he got someone like Benezia as an ally, why he decided to attack the Citadel and declare war on every species (including his own), what was his goal, why did the geth choose to follow him, etc. They got little to nothing for supporting their own claims.
The way I understood the meeting in ME2, it also appears that there was nothing which proves Sovereign was a geth ship either.
If anything, the Council is ignoring a lot of significant and key evidences. They barely made effort in their investigations and chose to make conclusions which lack support and evidence, simply because those conclusions fit their own preferences. Explain to me how this isn’t foolish?
Sovereign’s size, design and capabilities are enough to tell it isn’t geth. Even if Sovereign was a geth, its existence still represents a great threat to Council space. The Citadel suffered huge casualties and losses near the end of ME1. If the geth built one, then there should be even more of them out there. I’m pretty sure that anyone who managed to get a Council seat should be aware how something like that mustn't be ignored.
Then there’s Sovereign’s wreckage. The Council failed to secure most of it and there was a lot of unauthorized salvage. They even allowed volunteers to help out. Armando also mentions how the Wards were hit badly from Sovereign’s destruction and they're still clearing its wreckage there.
Either way you look at it, the Council is foolish, ignorant and incompetent.
If the asari councilor mind melded with Shepard she would share thoughts with Shepard, thus giving access to every secret the Council had. That wouldn’t be a good idea, especially because Shepard is working with Cerberus.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The codex states, “During mating an asari and her partner share memories, thoughts, and feelings.” It says nothing about this being a one way road. In order to gain access to Shepard’s mind she would have to open up her own.[/quote]
No, it doesn’t. I don’t know where you got that line so I’m gonna ask you to show me
Even if that line's in the game then you're right about one thing. It does say nothing about being a one way road. It also doesn’t say that it’s impossible. It also doesn’t say that she would always need to open up her own.
Besides, Liara, Shiala and the Consort prove that it’s possible to mind meld without giving secrets.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Because it was not important to the game. Why would the game show you non-plot important thoughts that were shared?[/quote]
…What?
How about because they can mind meld without giving secrets, hmm?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
No one ever said she mind melded with anyone. Asari can have purely physical experiences. in fact the sex scene in game with Shep shows no signs of a mind meld. No black eyes, no "embrace eternity" just some naughty looks and a hand trying to claw it's way out of the glass. (good lord Shep, what were you doing to her in there?)[/quote]
So because no one mentioned it and because we haven’t seen it, it doesn’t count? Yet in fact, we did see the black eyes and “embrace eternity” with both Shiala and Liara but for some reason you don’t want to accept that?
No, the asari cannot have purely physical sex with humans and other aliens. The games never make any mention of it. If you think about it, you will realize that the asari have no basis for having a vagina. Same goes for the concept of oral sex.
The books revealed that m/f intercourse with an asari is very awkward and ineffective, but the mind meld at least makes up for it.
Mind melding with the asari Councilor wouldn’t change anything because she wouldn’t be able to make anything out of it anyway. She would only a bunch of jumbled images like what we saw. It would be like seeing someone’s open mouth. Even Liara barely made sense out of it.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, because she is a prothean expert that understood them. She clearly states this helps her interpret the visions.[/quote]
No. I think you misunderstood. Liara was able to see some things that were connected to her research and expertise, which helped in finding the Conduit. Liara can interpret the Prothean parts better, but so what?
The asari Councilor would still see the exact same things from the visions as both Liara and Shepard did.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Really? Because shepard did not have a clue about what was going on. All He/she could tell was that someone was getting killed by… something. Hardly a smoking gun that the reapers are coming.[/quote]
Yes, really.
That’s what Shepard said about… 15 hours after the contact with the first beacon. Which was a badly damaged one and it didn’t even finish transferring the message. Between then and less than a day (or few days, not sure) Shepard realized that he saw the Protheans being wiped out by the Reapers. And that was without the Cipher and other visions.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They would get clearer to Shpeard as his mind had time to understand the cipher. This says nothing about another’s ability to understand the visions.[/quote]
Yet without the Cipher, Liara was unable to see Shepard’s visions and she couldn’t point towards Ilos.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Clearer to Shepard, a person who has been living with the visions for quite some time now.[/quote]
And clearer to the person who would bother looking into Shepard’s mind.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So… Maybe Shepard should go to the councilor and say, “Ok, read up on protheans and then mind meld with me. Make sure you also transfer the cipher. Then… maybe with enough time, you could possibly start to understand them.”
I’m sure that would go over great.
[/quote]
Then it’s a good thing that none of those are required.
I'll write more of what I missed out later.
Suit recordings don’t prove anything.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Really? I mean… really?![/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, really really
[/quote]
Then let’s at least analyze something from them, shall we?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about the conversation with Shiala? We find out that Saren wanted her and the Thorian dead because he didn’t want Shepard to understand the visions and to prevent him from following his steps. The visions are what brought Saren and Shepard to Ilos in the first place. Shiala also mentions something about Sovereign, indoctrination and why Benezia exactly joined up with Saren.
What about the entire conversation with Benezia, especially when she breaks out of indoctrination and gives us an OSD with the location of the Mu Relay? The conversation confirms the indoctrination and what Shiala said.
There’s a conversation with Rana Thanoptis where they talk about indoctrination and how she was researching it for Saren.
What about Saren when he himself admits everything?
What about the encounter with Sovereign from Saren’s personal quarters.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So what?
[/quote]
The suit recordings absolutely mustn’t be ignored. By analyzing the suit recordings, the Council would realize that they only match with Shepard’s statements and Shepard’s statements ONLY.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
At most, this would simply prove that Saren believes it.
[/quote]
Oh, there's more to them than that.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You need proof that the reapers exist. Not proof that Saren thinks they do. Not proof that Shepard thinks they do, but proof that they REALLY do. The idea that two people went crazy and managed to convince other to go along for the ride, is far more believable then giant machines actually coming to kill everyone.
I can show you proof all day long that someone believes 2012 is coming. That does not mean that it is.
[/quote]
Not even arguing with my points.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about the part where Kirrahe’s men sided with the geth and tried to kill you?
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
It proves they were brainwashed, nothing more.
[/quote]
Excuse me, what? Not sure I understand so can you elaborate?
Are you saying that other species are capable of brainwashing like indoctrination? No, they aren’t.
Do I have to remind you how big and serious the deal behind indoctrination is, especially during war?
You’re ignoring the part with Benezia, Shiala, Saren, Rana, Vigil, the symptoms, the other prisoners at Virmire and coming across a secret base where Saren was clearly studying indoctrination.
Shepard fought salarians who were Kirrahe’s men. He comes to the cells where he meets others who were imprisoned in order to study the effects. You can talk to some of them too.
There’s also Ganto Imness, the prisoner who was forced to watch others as the indoctrination affects them. He doesn’t say that they were brainwashed, but that they were indoctrinated. He calls it a much greater threat than the krogans.
You said it yourself that indoctrination could be proven. What point are you trying to make overall?
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
And the biggest of all, what about the confrontation with Vigil, a 50 000 years old Prothean VI?
Vigil confirmed everything that happened throughout ME1. He confirmed the beacons, visions, Reapers, indoctrination, Sovereign, the Conduit, Saren’s “made up” story and everything else.
Vigil also tells you how Saren and Sovereign have planned to attack the Citadel and he even gives you a data file which helped against Sovereign.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
A video tape of one computer saying Reapers exist does not make it so. As I said in the video, it is enough to make them curious and investigate.
[/quote]
An untampered video of a 50 000 year old prothean computer from a planet which no one visited before, and which confirmed everything throughout ME1 only made them curious?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
How does a prothean computer giving Shepard a prothean data package that controls what people believe to be a prothean space station prove the reapers exsit?
[/quote]
They don't think it's a prothean station.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about THIS? After that, we shoot Saren again to make sure he’s dead but then… he starts coming back from the dead… and transforms into some kind of thing and says “I am Sovereign! And this station is MINE!”
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Them Geth can do some funky things. Much easier to believe that then ancient Reapers.
[/quote]
Which was a process similar to the Dragon’s Teeth, but wasn’t it confirmed in ME1 that Dragon’s teeth aren’t geth technology?
Either way, that certainly doesn’t explain the part with Sovereign and when Saren committed suicide.
Vigil says that he’s prothean. Just because something says that it’s Prothean doesn’t mean that it’s Prothean. The Council couldn’t verify it.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Riiiiight.
The site is 50 000 years old and the entire ruin is Prothean. Each galactic species studied countless other Prothean ruins so far. Do you think that they wouldn’t be able to compare something and see? There are also dead Protheins inside the sleper pods, they could just take DNA samples and match them with the ones they found from other ruins.
Yes, they can easily verify it
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m not saying they can’t figure out it was a computer on a prothean world.[/quote]
You said they couldn't find out that Vigil was prothean.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I’m saying that without actually talking to Vigil, they cannot verify that what Shepard saw was not a decoy planted by Saren.
I know what you are saying, “That’s silly! Why would the council believe Saren would go through all that trouble?”
Because it is a more likely explanation that Giant Reapers.
[/quote]
Are you saying Saren was an expert in Prothean computer programming?
The word ‘silly’ doesn’t cut it, by far. That "decoy" also gave Shepard a data file which sabotaged Saren's plan to take over the Citadel. I would suggest you to come up with a different argument because this doesn’t help you one bit.
It would be like a judge saying that there’s a video tape of a suspect saying that he’s innocent -- so he must be innocent!
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
It depends on the video, of course.
But do you remember what it took to prove Saren’s guilt to the Council?
Councilor Velarn: “Some quarian just showed an audio recording where Saren admits that he’s guilty! IT’S IRREFUTABLE!” [/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
This argument again…
[/quote]It fits your argument. That’s what I'm trying to say.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Do people really think that the tape was not checked for authenticity?
[/quote]
I'm not sure about it. It wasn't mentioned anywhere in the game.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
This is not CSI. The game is not going to show you some lab coat going over the tape and confirming it is really his voice.
[/quote]
Who asked for that? I don’t know anyone on the forums who wondered why the game didn’t show a CSI like lab coat confirmation. One simple dialogue would have been enough. But then again, it would still be pointless. Kasumi had the ability to pass the scanning device itself. Udina might as well have shown a
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The game just assumes you are smart enough to figure that out.
[/quote]
Really? The game assumes I’m smart enough for that? That’s odd.
It certainly doesn’t assume I’m smart enough to figure out that Zaeed is aiming with his blind eye, that Nihlus’ shields were supposed to protect him from Saren’s shot, that the Codex entry for thermal clips is utterly retarded, the magic behind asari reproduction, how bizarre it was for the whole team to take a shuttle out for a non-existent mission, that Ken jumped out of the wall in order to look cool, that Joker shouldn’t be capable of lifting a metal beam due to his Vrolik syndrome, TIM’s horrible plan for the suicide mission, that going half naked in vacuum and toxic environments is bad for your health, the leap of logic behind Saren’s trial, that Miranda made it painfully clear how Shepard is the most important person on the station but then tells him he can rot with the mechs, etc.
Well, you’ll have to excuse me if I find your point hard to swallow.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, Kasumi has the ability to copy voice to a limited degree. Even with her cool tech it took an entire speech to make one word. How much would it take to make an entire conversation?
[/quote]
Limited? No, that wasn’t mentioned anywhere in the game.
I take it you missed the part where Kasumi fooled the guard by using the voice of Chief Roe.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Just because the best thief in the galaxy has the ability to forge something does not mean everyone assumes all voices are fake now. There are some people out there that can make flawless IDs these days. Does this mean courts just assume any ID is fake?
[/quote]
Your point? Saren wasn't some guy that robbed a supermarket or an underage kid who was caught entering an adult club. He’s was a Spectre, their best one, accused for siding with the geth and for attacking a human colony. The trial and the accusations against him were BIG. It would require a high amount of evidence, or at least some very reliable ones, in order to prove his guilt. But all the Council needed was a single audio recording, which could have been easily faked, to conclude that the evidence is irrefutable and that he’s guilty.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Beleiving a Spector has gone rogue is nowhere near the same as believing Reapers are coming.
[/quote]
I know.
But it’s still quite funny if you think about it. It took just one
Yet they have suit recordings, there are marks of mass extinctions and ancient wars all across the galaxy, they have Ilos, Sovereign, evidence showing that the relays pre-date the Protheans… and they give Shepard the air quotes.
Saren saw Shepard’s reports. He knew that Shepard believed in the Reapers so he decided to keep on messing with him. That conversation with Sovereign on Virmire can be easily dismissed as a VI programmed by Saren to keep on fooling Shepard.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
So… Saren prepares a hologram “Reaper” VI in his very own personal quarters in a super top secret base. He does this so he could further mess around with Shepard… just in case, huh? Despite the very small chance that Shepard would be capable of finding the base and if he would personally manage to come all the way to Saren’s personal quarters. Is that what you’re saying?[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I am saying that that is easier to believe than the idea that it was really a Reaper. You are failing to grasp just how difficult it would be to convince someone of the Reapers. Almost any possible explanation would be considered more likely than the Idea that the Reapers really do exist.
[/quote]
I do understand how difficult it can be. But after what Sovereign pulled off at the Battle of the Citadel, it shouldn’t be so hard.
Even the Codex mentions that there were speculations over the tabloid media on how Sovereign was an extragalactic invader, due to its overwhelming power. Such beliefs remain to this day.
What I don’t think you understand is how unbelievable your argument is. You also said it yourself that it could be easily dismissed as Saren trying to mess with Shepard. I beg to differ.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Why Saren simply didn’t set up a bomb or some other kind of trap is never dwelled upon.
In the same room, Shepard found another beacon just like the one on Eden Prime for which Saren and the geth started a war. Why Saren was dumb enough to leave that in the room if he was expecting Shepard to come is also never questioned.[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
You are missing the point. A video tape of a hologram would never be enough to convince ANYONE that mythical beasts are coming to eat us.
[/quote]
What? I’m the missing point? That’s funny; it’s the exact same thing I was thinking about you. Let’s have a look… oh, I see.
Sorry Squee, but I’m not falling for it.
No, that wasn’t your original argument. You’re trying to change your original argument and you’re pretending that the point of it was something completely different.
Convincing the Council to believe in the Reapers is the same as convincing them to believe in fairy tales and robot unicorns coming to kill us all.
[quote]AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
You know… I’ll admit that saying how an ancient alien race coming to kill us all may sound crazy, but please, you’re over exaggerating it to the absolute extreme.
Seriously, cut the hyperbole.
[/quote]
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What exaggeration? How is saying that A race of Giant Machines come once every 50,000 years to wipe everything out any easier to believe than saying Magical dragons are coming to kill us all? Reapers are a myth in the Mass Effect universe. This is taken from the codex, “A myth common to several cultures in the galaxy, Reapers were imagined to be space monsters who consumed entire stars.”
I am not exaggerating, there is no difference in how they would view Reapers or Dragons, or any other fairy tail or myth.
[/quote]
You are exaggerating. What you’re also doing is twisting words and meanings in order to make the belief about the Reapers to seem as much ludicrous as possible, just so it could help your argument.
I know what the Codex says about the Reapers. I read it and there’s nothing about fairy tales or something as ridiculous as magical robot unicorns.
So let’s clarify at least something
Myth =/= Fairy tale
If I brought a magical robot unicorn who admitted everything in front of the Congress then people would think it’s a prank. They could dissect it and most would say that it’s Japanese.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
What you are ignoring is probability. Everyone would be in awe, yes. But they would think it is far more likely that someone on Earth made it, than the idea that it is an advanced space robot. People believe in what they understand. They understand other humans and their ability to do amazing things. They do not understand or comprehend space robots so they are far more likely to attach an explanation that fits what they understand.
[/quote]
This is way beyond than just doing amazing things.
People know each other and they also know each other’s limitations. They know what humans are capable of and what they’re absolutely NOT. When something would exceed those limitations and capabilities, especially by far, they would quickly realize that it’s something not human and/or not made by humans.
Do I have to write a whole essay for you? Should I at least explain Clarke’s Third Law to you since you didn’t know about it?
No wait, scratch all that. Hell, I don’t even know why I’m bothering to write a reply here.
I’ll just say that if an advanced alien race suddenly paid us a visit then we’ll know that they’re aliens, especially if they wished to prove it.
It would take a mountain of evidence in order for the Council to believe that the Reapers exist.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
I don’t understand how you can say that when you don’t even know what they have. Pieces of Sovy, that is it. You have no knowledge of what that entails, or how they should be able to tell it apart from Geth ships. You have no idea how the ships were designed, how similar or different they are, or what methods the council have at their disposal for determining this.
[/quote]
Please, go on.
Explain to me how Sovereign, a ship which is FAR more advanced and completely ALIEN to the geth, is actually a geth ship.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
All you know is that they look different and one had a lot more fire power then the others. That is the only information you can gain from the game.
[/quote]
I could add more to that list. It’s certainly not much, but still. It’s more than enough to know that they are completely alien to each other and that one is far more advanced than the others. If you can explain those then I’ll drop it.
As a note, saying that one had a lot more firepower isn’t correct. The firepower was also completely different. Like I said before, the geth didn’t even use thanix cannons, which are a mini version of the weapon that Sovereign used. If the geth bothered to use thanix cannons then the battle near the end of ME1 would have played much more in their favor. What does the Council think about that? That the geth suck when it comes to military strategy?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Everything else is speculation on what you THINK should be.[/quote]
...I honestly didn’t expect to get this from a guy who spends his time making and defending his own subjective fanfiction.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They Believe the Reapers do not exsit. They believe this because they have not seen sufficient proof to make them believe otherwise. That is al this thread is dealing with.
[/quote]
That’s all this thread is about? Then why did you argue against bad writing and that it’s possible for the Council to believe in the Reapers? Oh well, I’ll try to avoid mentioning bad writing here.
Is it that the Council has not seen enough evidence or is it that they ignore it? Have they even bothered investigating and doing a proper research? Is it because they can’t accept them? Is it too troublesome for them to go look and find it themselves? Are they incompetent?
I remember a post where a guy or gal explained all this but since I can’t find it I’ll just have to go with what I remember. I think it was @General User but I’m not sure.
People argue that the burden of proof is on Shepard. But Shepard’s true task isn’t to research and prove the Reapers existence. His task is military, which he does extremely well.
The Council’s role is inquisitorial in nature. It's their duty and their task to investigate, especially after what happened near the end of ME1 and because of what Sovereign managed to pull off.
It was their task to find out and accurately determine the events and circumstances that were surrounding and leading up to the Battle of the Citadel. Which is something they failed miserably; despite having every evidence, clue, trail and connection to properly guide them.
The same thing can be said for their task to investigate and discover about the Reapers. There are signs and evidences all across the galaxy but it seems that no one except for Shepard and Cerberus are truly willing to investigate them.
Alright, the Council says they went to Ilos, they tried to talk to Vigil and… that’s just about it? Uhm… ok. Why only Vigil?
What about Eden Prime, Feros, Noveria, Virmire, rest of Ilos and multiple other uncharted worlds that Shepard visited? If they launched such an investigation then they would have at least discovered a ton of evidences that would support Shepard’s claims. Why would it? It has to, because Shepard’s claims are true.
Why didn’t the Council send a lot of spy drones deep inside geth space? Why not arrest Shiala and put her for questioning? What about following Saren’s footsteps, digging into his records and past to get leads? Why not investigate the Collectors and colony abductions? Why didn’t they investigate planets such as Klendagon? If they investigated the Great Rift valley, which was caused by an ancient and very powerful mass accelerator weapon, they would have discovered the derelict Reaper like Cerberus did. Both the Shadow Broker and Legion’s geth were capable of finding the derelict Reaper. Why couldn’t they find other Reaper artifacts like Shepard and Cerberus did throughout ME1 and ME2? Amanda Kenson and her team followed a rumor and thanks to that they too managed to find a Reaper artifact in batarian space.
In ME1, Shepard was their only agent sent to stop Saren and to investigate the matter. He investigated and made forward a version and explanation of events that is matched by every single piece of physical and recorded evidence that is available.
The Council knows very little about the geth, they know nothing what’s going on in geth space, they don’t know how Saren recruited the geth, how he got someone like Benezia as an ally, why he decided to attack the Citadel and declare war on every species (including his own), what was his goal, why did the geth choose to follow him, etc. They got little to nothing for supporting their own claims.
The way I understood the meeting in ME2, it also appears that there was nothing which proves Sovereign was a geth ship either.
If anything, the Council is ignoring a lot of significant and key evidences. They barely made effort in their investigations and chose to make conclusions which lack support and evidence, simply because those conclusions fit their own preferences. Explain to me how this isn’t foolish?
Sovereign’s size, design and capabilities are enough to tell it isn’t geth. Even if Sovereign was a geth, its existence still represents a great threat to Council space. The Citadel suffered huge casualties and losses near the end of ME1. If the geth built one, then there should be even more of them out there. I’m pretty sure that anyone who managed to get a Council seat should be aware how something like that mustn't be ignored.
Then there’s Sovereign’s wreckage. The Council failed to secure most of it and there was a lot of unauthorized salvage. They even allowed volunteers to help out. Armando also mentions how the Wards were hit badly from Sovereign’s destruction and they're still clearing its wreckage there.
Either way you look at it, the Council is foolish, ignorant and incompetent.
If the asari councilor mind melded with Shepard she would share thoughts with Shepard, thus giving access to every secret the Council had. That wouldn’t be a good idea, especially because Shepard is working with Cerberus.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
The codex states, “During mating an asari and her partner share memories, thoughts, and feelings.” It says nothing about this being a one way road. In order to gain access to Shepard’s mind she would have to open up her own.[/quote]
No, it doesn’t. I don’t know where you got that line so I’m gonna ask you to show me
Even if that line's in the game then you're right about one thing. It does say nothing about being a one way road. It also doesn’t say that it’s impossible. It also doesn’t say that she would always need to open up her own.
Besides, Liara, Shiala and the Consort prove that it’s possible to mind meld without giving secrets.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Because it was not important to the game. Why would the game show you non-plot important thoughts that were shared?[/quote]
…What?
How about because they can mind meld without giving secrets, hmm?
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
No one ever said she mind melded with anyone. Asari can have purely physical experiences. in fact the sex scene in game with Shep shows no signs of a mind meld. No black eyes, no "embrace eternity" just some naughty looks and a hand trying to claw it's way out of the glass. (good lord Shep, what were you doing to her in there?)[/quote]
So because no one mentioned it and because we haven’t seen it, it doesn’t count? Yet in fact, we did see the black eyes and “embrace eternity” with both Shiala and Liara but for some reason you don’t want to accept that?
No, the asari cannot have purely physical sex with humans and other aliens. The games never make any mention of it. If you think about it, you will realize that the asari have no basis for having a vagina. Same goes for the concept of oral sex.
The books revealed that m/f intercourse with an asari is very awkward and ineffective, but the mind meld at least makes up for it.
Mind melding with the asari Councilor wouldn’t change anything because she wouldn’t be able to make anything out of it anyway. She would only a bunch of jumbled images like what we saw. It would be like seeing someone’s open mouth. Even Liara barely made sense out of it.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Yes, because she is a prothean expert that understood them. She clearly states this helps her interpret the visions.[/quote]
No. I think you misunderstood. Liara was able to see some things that were connected to her research and expertise, which helped in finding the Conduit. Liara can interpret the Prothean parts better, but so what?
The asari Councilor would still see the exact same things from the visions as both Liara and Shepard did.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Really? Because shepard did not have a clue about what was going on. All He/she could tell was that someone was getting killed by… something. Hardly a smoking gun that the reapers are coming.[/quote]
Yes, really.
That’s what Shepard said about… 15 hours after the contact with the first beacon. Which was a badly damaged one and it didn’t even finish transferring the message. Between then and less than a day (or few days, not sure) Shepard realized that he saw the Protheans being wiped out by the Reapers. And that was without the Cipher and other visions.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
They would get clearer to Shpeard as his mind had time to understand the cipher. This says nothing about another’s ability to understand the visions.[/quote]
Yet without the Cipher, Liara was unable to see Shepard’s visions and she couldn’t point towards Ilos.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
Clearer to Shepard, a person who has been living with the visions for quite some time now.[/quote]
And clearer to the person who would bother looking into Shepard’s mind.
[quote]SpiffySquee wrote...
So… Maybe Shepard should go to the councilor and say, “Ok, read up on protheans and then mind meld with me. Make sure you also transfer the cipher. Then… maybe with enough time, you could possibly start to understand them.”
I’m sure that would go over great.
[/quote]Then it’s a good thing that none of those are required.
I'll write more of what I missed out later.
Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 02 novembre 2011 - 02:48 .
#205
Guest_Trust_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 05:10
Guest_Trust_*
Guest_Trust_*
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- Guests
Over a year ago, I remember reading a post from a Bioware dev who explained why he found it laughable that the Council still denied the Reapers in ME2. He even said that he spoke to Mac Walters about it.
I can't find the post, so does anyone else know about it?
I can't find the post, so does anyone else know about it?
Modifié par AwesomeEffect2, 28 octobre 2011 - 05:11 .
#206
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 07:19
onelifecrisis
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Oh Squee, how I wish you would cut all the unnecessary rambling out of your videos and just make your points concisely. They're good points, but wading through all the padding in-between them (not to mention your five-minute-long "why I'm doing this video" intros) does get tiresome.
#207
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 10:48
hawat333
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I think, it isn't really about evidence. It's about human nature. If we deny the existence of a threat, it doesn't exist.
... of course it does, and that's why we (Shepard and all the people on Earth) is scr.wed.
... of course it does, and that's why we (Shepard and all the people on Earth) is scr.wed.
#208
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 11:21
Arkitekt
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AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Over a year ago, I remember reading a post from a Bioware dev who explained why he found it laughable that the Council still denied the Reapers in ME2. He even said that he spoke to Mac Walters about it.
PICS OR DIDN'T HAPPEN.
But really, what the **** does that prove rather than devs being not so intelligent as people here make them to be?
#209
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 11:49
Yakko77
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The Council being in denial may be preventing a panic but at the same time it encourages a state of unpreparedness which is more dangerous in the long run IMO.
#210
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 11:53
Arkitekt
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AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
What about the part where Kirrahe’s men sided with the geth and tried to kill you?Excuse me, what? Not sure I understand so can you elaborate?SpiffySquee wrote...
It proves they were brainwashed, nothing more.
Are you saying that other species are capable of brainwashing like indoctrination? No, they aren’t.
Are you saying that brainwashing is something that was invented by the reapers alone? Or that treason is something impossible here?
Do I have to remind you how big and serious the deal behind indoctrination is, especially during war?
Especially when you have zero evidence of this phenomena at all, and you can scrub it into "Those ****ing traitors", or Asari mind control, or any other kind of **** that can be explained intra-galactically without the need of cthuluh paranoid theories.
You’re ignoring the part with Benezia, Shiala, Saren, Rana, Vigil, the symptoms, the other prisoners at Virmire and coming across a secret base where Saren was clearly studying indoctrination.
This explains nothing else than Saren studying next-gen technologies to control armies for his own. Nothing else.
Shepard fought salarians who were Kirrahe’s men. He comes to the cells where he meets others who were imprisoned in order to study the effects. You can talk to some of them too.
Irrelevant.
AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
And the biggest of all, what about the confrontation with Vigil, a 50 000 years old Prothean VI?
Vigil confirmed everything that happened throughout ME1. He confirmed the beacons, visions, Reapers, indoctrination, Sovereign, the Conduit, Saren’s “made up” story and everything else.
Vigil also tells you how Saren and Sovereign have planned to attack the Citadel and he even gives you a data file which helped against Sovereign.
This is the major plot hole. Shepard is told by Anderson that no one could confirm Vigil's existence, since there was no power left at that VI booth... but this existence could have been confirmed by the videos of their suits. We can close this plot hole with some cumbersome explanation, like "the fight destroyed the video recorders", or "the sony camcorder ran out of tape" or some idiocy like that. What is clear is that the writers didn't think about this detail at all.
However, accepting the video as it is may be not enough. Seeing a wretched VI telling Shepard about the "reapers" just after Saren passing over this section (and perhaps toying with it?) of the facility may be not evidence enough for a skeptic.
AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Riiiiight.
The site is 50 000 years old and the entire ruin is Prothean. Each galactic species studied countless other Prothean ruins so far. Do you think that they wouldn’t be able to compare something and see? There are also dead Protheins inside the sleper pods, they could just take DNA samples and match them with the ones they found from other ruins.
Yes, they can easily verify it
The question is, are they even inclined to do such inquiries? They have a citadel to repair and a political ****storm to solve, with all worries concentrated in the galactic power machinations between races and councilors. What if in some mission Shepard was in the ruins were Prothean or something else? Citadel politicians couldn't care less about those details that seemed irrelevant to their minds at the time.
The word ‘silly’ doesn’t cut it, by far. That "decoy" also gave Shepard a data file which sabotaged Saren's plan to take over the Citadel. I would suggest you to come up with a different argument because this doesn’t help you one bit.
Citadel's politicians theory does not have to be fool proof to be convincing. Some conspiracy theories have "gotcha" questions all the time, and nevertheless they don't stop being silly. Politicians will handwave these things as "something probably explains it" and don't give it extra thought.
They Believe the Reapers do not exsit. They believe this because they have not seen sufficient proof to make them believe otherwise. That is al this thread is dealing with.
Is it that the Council has not seen enough evidence or is it that they ignore it? Have they even bothered investigating and doing a proper research? Is it because they can’t accept them? Is it too troublesome for them to go look and find it themselves? Are they incompetent?
All of this can be true at least partially. You should remind yourself that in the aftermath of the citadel attack, they only have one wretched "reaper" to "worry about" and lots of Geth to clean up. They have to worry about the citadel and they have to worry about the political mess they are in right now. It's not that far fetched to see these politicians stop worrying about long-term issues (by denying their existence) and focusing on short-term problems. On the long run, they'll decide that their decision to deny the reapers existence was the correct one after all.
#211
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 02:11
Lex36
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@ AwesomeEffect2
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
here the video, jump @ 10:35:
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
here the video, jump @ 10:35:
#212
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 03:01
NeroSparda
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Lex36 wrote...
@ AwesomeEffect2
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
here the video, jump @ 10:35:
... *Planning to replay Mass Effect AGAIN with a new Shepard t o get that data.*
#213
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 03:04
Sajuro
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I think what is important is that if all of the major players are preparing in secret.Yakko77 wrote...
The Council being in denial may be preventing a panic but at the same time it encourages a state of unpreparedness which is more dangerous in the long run IMO.
#214
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 03:10
Candidate 88766
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I'm hoping this doesn't actually make a difference, I really don't want to have to replay 70 hours worth of game...NeroSparda wrote...
Lex36 wrote...
@ AwesomeEffect2
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
here the video, jump @ 10:35:
... *Planning to replay Mass Effect AGAIN with a new Shepard t o get that data.*
#215
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 03:17
Candidate 88766
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Actually, having watched that, Shepard downloads the same data as he would anyway. Liara persuades Shepard to speak more with Vigil, but thats it. The data Shepard downloads is the same data that would've been downloaded if Liara wasn't there - the data that allows Shepard to gain access to the main systems on the Citadel. it isn't some unqiue data I'm afraid.Lex36 wrote...
@ AwesomeEffect2
Yes, Shepard CAN download data from Vigil about the Reapers before leaving. To get this you m,ust have Liara with you.
I can’t find the video on Youtube.
here the video, jump @ 10:35:
#216
Guest_dutch646_*
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 04:44
Guest_dutch646_*
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It seems pretty clear that it's the unique one. If you agree to stay longer, you get no extra questions to ask. You also see Shepard using the omni tool. (S)he doesn't use it otherwiseCandidate 88766 wrote...
Actually, having watched that, Shepard downloads the same data as he would anyway. Liara persuades Shepard to speak more with Vigil, but thats it. The data Shepard downloads is the same data that would've been downloaded if Liara wasn't there - the data that allows Shepard to gain access to the main systems on the Citadel. it isn't some unqiue data I'm afraid.
Watch this at about 4:50
What strikes me more is that the omni tool does interface with prothean data and technology. This means that everyone does have more knowledge about the protheans and their technology. The Council should have been able to recover data from hardware or at least be able to restore power after Vigil shut down.
It's bad writing. Nothing really new.
Modifié par dutch646, 28 octobre 2011 - 04:48 .
#217
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 05:43
Candidate 88766
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Ah my bad, I think you may be right.dutch646 wrote...
It seems pretty clear that it's the unique one. If you agree to stay longer, you get no extra questions to ask. You also see Shepard using the omni tool. (S)he doesn't use it otherwiseCandidate 88766 wrote...
Actually, having watched that, Shepard downloads the same data as he would anyway. Liara persuades Shepard to speak more with Vigil, but thats it. The data Shepard downloads is the same data that would've been downloaded if Liara wasn't there - the data that allows Shepard to gain access to the main systems on the Citadel. it isn't some unqiue data I'm afraid.
Watch this at about 4:50
What strikes me more is that the omni tool does interface with prothean data and technology. This means that everyone does have more knowledge about the protheans and their technology. The Council should have been able to recover data from hardware or at least be able to restore power after Vigil shut down.
It's bad writing. Nothing really new.
And a lot of the writing at the end of ME1 gets a bit sloppy.
-How did the Protheans make a Relay that transports you halfway across the galaxy with a drift of a couple of feet considering that regular, Reaper-made Relays have drift of thousands of kilometres?
-How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
-What were the chances of that exact point on Illos lining up with the Citadel at all? I understand that Relays can move (the Charon Relay, for example, orbits the Sun) but at least half of the time the direct path from the Conduit to the Citadel will lead through Illos' core.
-Why, if the Conduit was some prototype, presumably top-secret creation, was half of it built in a top-secret facility and the other in what is essentially a public park on the Citadel?
-After the Reapers left, the Relay network would presumably come back online so why couldn't the last Protheans simply use a normal ship to reach the Citadel? There was bound to be one somewhere on Illos.
Oh well, I can forgive the writing because the end sequence of ME1 is just so good. An amazing end to an amazing story. The only time I've felt tension like it in a game was on ME2's suicide mission, and the Ravenholm mission in Half Life 2 (although that was a different kind of tension).
But I digress.
#218
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:08
onelifecrisis
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Candidate 88766 wrote...
-How did the Protheans make a Relay that transports you halfway across the galaxy with a drift of a couple of feet considering that regular, Reaper-made Relays have drift of thousands of kilometres?
You know the drift only happens to ships that don't have an IFF right? I don't see why the Protheans would put the IFF requirement in their relay. However, the ability of the Protheans to even make a relay in the first place is, I think, rather suspect.
-How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
-What were the chances of that exact point on Illos lining up with the Citadel at all? I understand that Relays can move (the Charon Relay, for example, orbits the Sun) but at least half of the time the direct path from the Conduit to the Citadel will lead through Illos' core.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
Though admittedly this seems a bit daft given that you see the relay shooting the Mako in a specific direction.
-Why, if the Conduit was some prototype, presumably top-secret creation, was half of it built in a top-secret facility and the other in what is essentially a public park on the Citadel?
-After the Reapers left, the Relay network would presumably come back online so why couldn't the last Protheans simply use a normal ship to reach the Citadel? There was bound to be one somewhere on Illos.
I thought they transported the other half to the citadel after it was built (presumably using regular relays)? Correct me if I'm wrong.
#219
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:25
Candidate 88766
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1. I thought that was only the Omega 4 Relay, but thinking about it you're probably right. However, we didn't know that in ME1 so at the time it appeared as a bit sloppy.onelifecrisis wrote...
Candidate 88766 wrote...
1. -How did the Protheans make a Relay that transports you halfway across the galaxy with a drift of a couple of feet considering that regular, Reaper-made Relays have drift of thousands of kilometres?
You know the drift only happens to ships that don't have an IFF right? I don't see why the Protheans would put the IFF requirement in their relay. However, the ability of the Protheans to even make a relay in the first place is, I think, rather suspect.
2. -How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
3. -What were the chances of that exact point on Illos lining up with the Citadel at all? I understand that Relays can move (the Charon Relay, for example, orbits the Sun) but at least half of the time the direct path from the Conduit to the Citadel will lead through Illos' core.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
Though admittedly this seems a bit daft given that you see the relay shooting the Mako in a specific direction.
4. [b]-Why, if the Conduit was some prototype, presumably top-secret creation, was half of it built in a top-secret facility and the other in what is essentially a public park on the Citadel?
I thought they transported the other half to the citadel after it was built (presumably using regular relays)? Correct me if I'm wrong.
2. I know, I know, but I'm sure they could've put some sci-fi mumbo jumbo in the Codex to explain it. After all the effort they put into explaining the Relays, the Conduit just makes it look like a teleporter which the writers went to a lot of trouble to ensure wasn't the case.
3. I guess they could've moved it there afterwards, put if they wanted a back door into the Citadel you'd think they'd at least keep it out of sight. To install it would've needed a lot work, and the Prothean citizens would probably have realised it wans't a statue being installed.
But as I say, I can ignore this stuff because it is, as you say, a space opera. I don't know why but I felt the need to vent and this seemed like an opportunity. The writing in both ME games has been so good that discrepencies stand out more than they should. The Conduit has always kinda bugged me, but oh well.
#220
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:26
DiscoDarth
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-How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
Thats why Mako is broken now!
Thats why Mako is broken now!
#221
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:34
onelifecrisis
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Candidate 88766 wrote...
1. I thought that was only the Omega 4 Relay, but thinking about it you're probably right. However, we didn't know that in ME1 so at the time it appeared as a bit sloppy.onelifecrisis wrote...
Candidate 88766 wrote...
1. -How did the Protheans make a Relay that transports you halfway across the galaxy with a drift of a couple of feet considering that regular, Reaper-made Relays have drift of thousands of kilometres?
You know the drift only happens to ships that don't have an IFF right? I don't see why the Protheans would put the IFF requirement in their relay. However, the ability of the Protheans to even make a relay in the first place is, I think, rather suspect.
2. -How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
3. -What were the chances of that exact point on Illos lining up with the Citadel at all? I understand that Relays can move (the Charon Relay, for example, orbits the Sun) but at least half of the time the direct path from the Conduit to the Citadel will lead through Illos' core.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
Though admittedly this seems a bit daft given that you see the relay shooting the Mako in a specific direction.
4. [b]-Why, if the Conduit was some prototype, presumably top-secret creation, was half of it built in a top-secret facility and the other in what is essentially a public park on the Citadel?
I thought they transported the other half to the citadel after it was built (presumably using regular relays)? Correct me if I'm wrong.
2. I know, I know, but I'm sure they could've put some sci-fi mumbo jumbo in the Codex to explain it. After all the effort they put into explaining the Relays, the Conduit just makes it look like a teleporter which the writers went to a lot of trouble to ensure wasn't the case.
3. I guess they could've moved it there afterwards, put if they wanted a back door into the Citadel you'd think they'd at least keep it out of sight. To install it would've needed a lot work, and the Prothean citizens would probably have realised it wans't a statue being installed.
But as I say, I can ignore this stuff because it is, as you say, a space opera. I don't know why but I felt the need to vent and this seemed like an opportunity. The writing in both ME games has been so good that discrepencies stand out more than they should. The Conduit has always kinda bugged me, but oh well.
1. It's all relays. Fire up ME1 and watch the opening cutscene.
3. Prothean Citizens? There were none left... the relay was built after the reapers had harvested IIRC?
Hey, I don't mind. I vent a lot about the writing, but my concerns are with character actions and motives (which are pretty much the heart of a space opera) rather than the "science" of ME.
#222
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:41
Candidate 88766
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1. Isn't that just Joker sending the Normandy's mass to the Relay? Thats how they work I think. However, I think you're right about the IFF - it makes sense for the Reapers to have installed them in all Relays.onelifecrisis wrote...
Candidate 88766 wrote...
1. I thought that was only the Omega 4 Relay, but thinking about it you're probably right. However, we didn't know that in ME1 so at the time it appeared as a bit sloppy.onelifecrisis wrote...
Candidate 88766 wrote...
1. -How did the Protheans make a Relay that transports you halfway across the galaxy with a drift of a couple of feet considering that regular, Reaper-made Relays have drift of thousands of kilometres?
You know the drift only happens to ships that don't have an IFF right? I don't see why the Protheans would put the IFF requirement in their relay. However, the ability of the Protheans to even make a relay in the first place is, I think, rather suspect.
2. -How did the Conduit allow the Mako to phase through the Citadel arms? Reducing an objects mass shouldn't allow it to phase through solid material. I understand why neutrinos can pass through matter, but the Mako isn't made of neutrinos.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
3. -What were the chances of that exact point on Illos lining up with the Citadel at all? I understand that Relays can move (the Charon Relay, for example, orbits the Sun) but at least half of the time the direct path from the Conduit to the Citadel will lead through Illos' core.
Space Opera != Science Fiction
Though admittedly this seems a bit daft given that you see the relay shooting the Mako in a specific direction.
4. [b]-Why, if the Conduit was some prototype, presumably top-secret creation, was half of it built in a top-secret facility and the other in what is essentially a public park on the Citadel?
I thought they transported the other half to the citadel after it was built (presumably using regular relays)? Correct me if I'm wrong.
2. I know, I know, but I'm sure they could've put some sci-fi mumbo jumbo in the Codex to explain it. After all the effort they put into explaining the Relays, the Conduit just makes it look like a teleporter which the writers went to a lot of trouble to ensure wasn't the case.
3. I guess they could've moved it there afterwards, put if they wanted a back door into the Citadel you'd think they'd at least keep it out of sight. To install it would've needed a lot work, and the Prothean citizens would probably have realised it wans't a statue being installed.
But as I say, I can ignore this stuff because it is, as you say, a space opera. I don't know why but I felt the need to vent and this seemed like an opportunity. The writing in both ME games has been so good that discrepencies stand out more than they should. The Conduit has always kinda bugged me, but oh well.
1. It's all relays. Fire up ME1 and watch the opening cutscene.
3. Prothean Citizens? There were none left... the relay was built after the reapers had harvested IIRC?
Hey, I don't mind. I vent a lot about the writing, but my concerns are with character actions and motives (which are pretty much the heart of a space opera) rather than the "science" of ME.
3. How would they get it to the Citadel after the Reapers had, um, reaped? They used the Conduit to get to the Citadel after the Reapers retreated.
Thats fair enough. And I agree - I'd put characters before the nitty-gritty of the lore any day. I think Bioware have totally nailed characters so far, particularly in ME2 - some of the best characters I've seen in games were in ME2. I just saw an opportunity to point out some niggles with the science and went for it. I get sick of people pointing out the flaws in ME2 and ignoring ME1's, so it felt good to finally type that stuff. Not sure why though. Most of the science is pretty solid, particularly for a space opera.
Modifié par Candidate 88766, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:42 .
#223
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:54
onelifecrisis
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Candidate 88766 wrote...
3. How would they get it to the Citadel after the Reapers had, um, reaped? They used the Conduit to get to the Citadel after the Reapers retreated.
Oh, did they? You're probably right. In which case yeah it's an oddity.
#224
Posté 28 octobre 2011 - 06:59
Candidate 88766
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Yeah, Vigil says they used the Conduit to gain access to the Citadel.onelifecrisis wrote...
Candidate 88766 wrote...
3. How would they get it to the Citadel after the Reapers had, um, reaped? They used the Conduit to get to the Citadel after the Reapers retreated.
Oh, did they? You're probably right. In which case yeah it's an oddity.
Modifié par Candidate 88766, 28 octobre 2011 - 06:59 .
