370 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

squee365 wrote...

Awesomebuttonman is making a fool of himself, and thats alright because I've worked with marketing/advertising people before and they're all like that.

Well, that certainly seems to be true for a majority of entertainment industries.  In the real world I've worked with plenty of marketing folks who don't act like complete fools.

ME2 was already too "Michael Bay" for my tastes, so I can't say this is what tips me over the point of not buying ME3, just kinda reassures me of my decision.

[sp0ck 06]

Nozybidaj wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Awesomebuttonman is making a fool of himself, and thats alright because I've worked with marketing/advertising people before and they're all like that.

Well, that certainly seems to be true for a majority of entertainment industries.  In the real world I've worked with plenty of marketing folks who don't act like complete fools.

ME2 was already too "Michael Bay" for my tastes, so I can't say this is what tips me over the point of not buying ME3, just kinda reassures me of my decision.

[Lumikki]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here... but I seem to recall ME2 getting a lot of flack from "hardcore classic RPG fans" (and I am not part of that group).  I know the reasons why BioWare might think playing up the "actiony" parts of ME3 will bring in new customers... but if there's this sense of disappointment that keeps rearing its head within your core base, who cares what Johnny-come-lately thinks about ME3 action?

Yep, but that's the point.

It's not about sell us ME3 to make us happy, it's about getting new customers. We don't need to know what kind of game ME3 will be, because we know it allready, but there is still a lot of players who to sell ME serie idea. Core base aren't teared, there are just people who don't like ME series direction, because they are WRONG customer types for ME serie. So, pleasing them in MARKETING does do anyone any good, because it doens't change what ME3 will be.

Point been no point to sell cat for people who likes only dogs.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 juillet 2011 - 01:41 .

[ShaggyWolf]

I agree that David shouldn't have said that about the relationships, but it doesn't worry me. We've already heard from Bioware devs and writers via twitter that the relationships- romance and otherwise- will be more in depth and meaningful. With that in mind, I don't care what PR says.

The rest of the OP disgusts me.

Grats on making leaderboard toby

[Slayer299]

Someone With Mass wrote...
I just want to bash everyone's heads in when they're saying: "Whaaaa, DA2 wasn't perfect, and that sets the standard for every BioWare game from here on!"

DA2 AND ME2 HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON BEYOND THE BIOWARE LOGO, YOU IDIOTS!

They don't have the same budget, nor development time, nor writers, nor designers, nor the same setting. Nothing. The teams aren't even aware of the other team's work until they've played the game.

And if they draw inspiration from each other's games, that's not a big deal, because it happens all the goddamn time.

Jesus mother****ing Christ on a Pogo stick, people are whiny and dense. 

And in fact you're quite wrong about that. The different teams do not exist in a vacuum and it has been clearly stated by the doctors that the teams do intermingle to a limited extent as needed and the new DA2 Legacy interview plays this fact up. That they worked with several of the ME2 team to get better ideas on improving Legacy.

[DTKT]

ButtonAwesomeMan is back at it again.

What a shame.

[Feanor_II]

I preffer to listen to Casey Hudson, most f the times David Silverman speak for me is:


Really, he should be more carefull about what he says and HOW.

[Veex]

The only thing I find funny about this thread is that Terror_K has acknowledged previously that he/she is more optimistic about the return of RPG elements to ME3 and then develops a bout of short term memory loss in the span of a day.

If you're browsing these forums on a regular basis, you've seen the weapon modification and stat layout most likely, you already know that the RPG mechanics will be more robust. You've literally seen the design in game. You've heard or read developers discuss how your past romances will be more in depth in ME3.

How you can instantly forget all of that is beyond me.

[Big_Chief]

Valadras21 wrote...

I agree that David shouldn't have said that about the relationships, but it doesn't worry me. We've already heard from Bioware devs and writers via twitter that the relationships- romance and otherwise- will be more in depth and meaningful. With that in mind, I don't care what PR says.

The rest of the OP disgusts me.

Grats on making leaderboard toby

You're probably right. It still seems odd to say "who cares" about that feature when a quick stroll over to the character section of the boards shows that apparently a lot of people do. In some cases, to the extent of becoming a bit creepy, but still.

[Slayer299]

I know Silverman is a PR yo-yo and 96% of the nonsense he spouts is just that. They want more people and such, but it seems what he's aiming for is a group that won't find ME all that much to their liking, not when you can name 4 shooters and not 1 RPG or you claim that our LI's aren't important.

Granted Casey Hudson has said differently, but after the DA2 marketing campaign I find myself very cautious with such comments.

[Candidate 88766]

1. As far as I'm aware David Silverman isn't actually a developer, so his way of presenting the game in marketing may not actually represent the feel that the developers are going for. He presents every game like this. For something like E3, his approach is suitable. When we get closer to release, less so.

2. The only demos Bioware has been able to show so far were also used at E3 and were designed to show off the improvements to the combat side of ME3, so it makes sense that the aciton and combat side is the main thing they can talk about atm.

3. Mass Effect is not and has never been a 'true' RPG. ME1 wasn't, ME2 wasn't, ME3 won't be. They are action games. Yes, they have RPG elements, but they are not the focus. Bioware wanted to make a new kind of cinematic game - something closer to a film than a game (hence the grain filters and all the nods to classic sci-fi films). Action-based gameplay compliments that design. They've cherry-picked the RPG features they feel will add to the experience, not because 'it is an RPG therefore it must have every RPG feature'.

4. Just because you are an RPG fan doesn't mean you can't play games that aren't RPGs. Every 'RPG fan' on this forum has proved that they play action games because they've all played ME1 and ME2.

5. The hypocrisy here is amazing. Some people aren't willing to believe the countless times we've been told that RPG stuff will come back, but instantly leap on one article that says they're also focusing on action. Brilliant.

6. This game is about a galactic war. That is literally the greatest possible excuse for action.

Terror_K wrote...

CVG article says...

"This is definitely the best chance we have in the series to really break out and go truly blockbuster," BioWare marketing boss David Silverman told CVG.

So ME3 is even more of a cheap modern Hollywood style action flick than ME2 was then?

Oh, so you don't want Bioware to be successful? How nice.

"We're hoping for a big hit. It's the best game we've ever made at BioWare Edmonton.

Yeah... I heard the same line prior to ME2 coming out. And even something similar regarding DA2. Both were very far from BioWare's "best game ever!"

ME2's monumental critical success begs to differ.

"Absolutely. Hands down. We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty and lots of RPG games too.

So... you're looking far more at some of the most trite, overrated and simple games from recent history aimed at appealing to the lowest common denominator as the main focus for making ME3. I notice that he couldn't even name a single RPG that was looked at for influence... just four big mainstream hitters, three of which are mindless, shallow tripe aimed squarely at the shooter crowd. 

Because CoD is the single most successful game franchise ever created, one of the most successful entertainment franchies ever, it must be tripe. Its popularity can't possibly be because it is good at what it does. Get off the CoD-bashing bandwagon. Its not cool anymore. Its not hipster. Its a stale argument and one that severely weakens the genuine points you do have in your argument. There are genuine points - this is not how Bioware should be marketing ME3, I agree with you there. But hating on popular games simply because they are popular seriously detracts from any valid points you're trying to make.

"We've looked at all these games to see what's resonating and what's not. On the one hand, we don't want to go too far down the RPG rabbit hole where Shepard starts rolling dice, but on the other hand we don't want to ignore that coolness - where people can customise parts of their character and making them feel that it's them in the adventure. We capitalise on that in spades in ME3."

Oh, so only the "cool" RPG factors stay. They have to be the customisation, but nothing that adds actual depth or numbers, because numbers are scary.

You'd love Black Ops. That has far more numbers and stats than most RPGs. Or try some of the old Football Managers - they're pretty much comprised entirely of numbers. Right up your street.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:10 .

[Terror_K]

Veex wrote...

The only thing I find funny about this thread is that Terror_K has acknowledged previously that he/she is more optimistic about the return of RPG elements to ME3 and then develops a bout of short term memory loss in the span of a day.

If you're browsing these forums on a regular basis, you've seen the weapon modification and stat layout most likely, you already know that the RPG mechanics will be more robust. You've literally seen the design in game. You've heard or read developers discuss how your past romances will be more in depth in ME3.

How you can instantly forget all of that is beyond me.

I haven't forgotten. A few steps in the right direction does not automatically mean "epic win!" has been reached with ME3. Especially when it shouldn't have needed to take those steps in the first place. There's too much about ME3 that still concerns me and too much that seems to suggest that we've pretty much seen about all the RPG elements we're going to get and that when it gets down to it it's still too action-focused and too much TPS. And this guy coming along and telling me that it's been developed with four games as reference that are probably the four games I'd list as being the ones I want Mass Effect to be the least like don't help. I got into Mass Effect because it wasn't the same drivel as Halo, Gears and CoD as much as anything else. If I want to play them (or any of there many respective clones) then I'll go out and play them. This is why the games industry is stagnating lately: because everybody is making the same types of games for the same audience.

[CroGamer002]

I think BSN users should not listen to Silverman on what can we expect in ME3.

[Ianamus]

He really should have thought more carefully about exactly what he was saying. I know that Call of Duty games are the best sellers, and that Bioware want to able to cash in on that Market, but saying things like:

'Well, what about when I had this love affair?' It's like, who cares? It's all out war!"

Isn't going to make new people more likely to buy the game, It's just going to irritate the people who do care about those sort of things.

I also don't get why, when asked about RPG elements, he said:

"We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty "

When none of those mentioned are RPG's! Why couldn't he have listed something like Skyrim, which is at least a RPG, and from a very popular game series as well. Or Dragon Age Origins, which was very popular and would allieviate fears from people who disliked DA2?
If he had been asked a question about how the action and combat would be improved then this answer would have been fine, but if your asked about RPG features don't just list loads of popular games that have none of those features at all!

I'm sure that around 75% of the people who play the new game will have played at least Mass Effect 2, so alienating many of those people needlessly will get them nowhere. Why focus so much on making newcomers happy when the previous games already sold millions?

I have many friends who enjoy games like Call of Duty and Halo, but are more worried about Mass Effect 3's direction than I am. They admit themselves that they hate the single player on those games, and only buy them for the multiplayer. They like Mass Effect because it's different, and a strong single player experience. Bioware need to realise that if people wanted to play CoD or Halo then they would play CoD or Halo.

Modifié par EJ107, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:21 .

[Zulu_DFA]

squee365 wrote...

He's a marketing guy, he doesn't actually make decisions in development.

Yeah, but his office is a lot closer to Casey Hudson's and the doctors' offices than the designers', writers', artists' and other working class people's shops are.  
He is probably sitting on a budget equating to that allocated to the development of the game proper.
 

When he tells Casey "this will sell", "that won't sell", "I can sell it" and such things, it infuences the directives Casey passes down to the infantry. And I bet Silverman actually outright dictates to Casey himself, what he can and cannot disclose in interviews or on that Twitter feed.


@OP.

The consumer has right to remain silent. Everything he says may be used against him on the market.

[KainrycKarr]

Watch the demos, including the comicon stuff right now. It's COMPLETELY different from what this silverman guy is saying.

The BW PR guy clearly doesn't even know what he's marketing.

[upsettingshorts]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love how people pretend that ME1 had some really deep RPG mechanics.

I had a longer, more incredulous reply to the OP.  But quoting this will do.

Also, "shooters and their players are dumb and simple" arguments make me laugh because they come from a place that are essentially ignorant.

If ME2 had come before ME1, action fans would have been well within the realm of reason to complain that ME1 dumbed down the shooter elements for the RPG crowd that needs their hands held through using a gun.  RPG elements are not the only "smart" or "complex" game mechanics ever invented, except on the BSN it seems.

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Or try some of the old Football Managers - they're pretty much comprised entirely of numbers. Right up your street.

Why just the old ones?  I've got an active save in Football Manager 11 right now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:24 .

[Il Divo]

EJ107 wrote...


"We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty "

This admittedly would be the only area which I find odd (assuming I were taking this ass seriously). I love Assassin's Creed, but how much could Bioware potentially learn from the series, for a tps/rpg hybrid? Citing Deus Ex  would be alot more appropriate, given the style of game they are making.

I'm actually less bothered by the comparisons to Halo/CoD. Learning from those games could simply mean borrowing the interface, or actual shooting mechanics, etc, which I thought Mass Effect desperately needed.

Modifié par Il Divo, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:29 .

[sympathy4saren]

Shockwave81 wrote...

My main concerns with ME2 were the 'compartmentalised' crew, the main storyline taking a back seat to loyalty missions, and the lack of a decent main villain.

I honestly don't believe that added RPG 'goodness' would have made much difference to the above - in fact it probably would have put me off the game completely. I was disillusioned enough without nauseating stat manipulation and customisation so deep that I wouldn't be able to see the sun above me.

There is one fanbase BioWare takes for granted, and that is The Elder Scroll audience. There are many Mass Effect fans who love The Elder Scrolls, but believe me when I say that there are many TES fans who are not interested in Mass Effect simply because it doesn't offer the depth of rpg elements it could and should have if a genuinely equal hybrid.

I'm not talking about open world or fantasy differences. I'm talking about basic depth in rpg mechanics and exploration.

I know a bunch of people on the Bethesda forums who liked how you could just go out and explore planets in an open way. Many ME fans didn't like how bare planets were, but even thiugh i liked it overall because most planets are bare, improvements to this could have been made ala Star Trek that gave planets more personality, features, artwork and detailed in an open wqy that fostered that kind of exploration that was a nice counterpart to the combat. One of the great things about Star Trek and TES is just exploring and discovering the unknown. Mass Effect 2, imo, did this in a very linear way, and i believe shooter fans didn't like it because it took away from the trigger.

I believe shooter fans played Mass Effect thinking that it was a pure shooter and were confused and lost when it wasn't what they expected. In fact, Mass Effect was originally different than those games like Gears of War and other linear shooters, and rpg elements along with openess to explore contributed greatly to what set it apart.

I feel that the "people falsely believe that ME1 was the mecca of rpg mechanics" is an ad hominem argument that attempts to quickly justify the current state of the franchise, when everyone knows that the basic premise established could have and should be simply expanded upon and made better.

There is a huge market to appeal to in TES, but the lack of genuinely deep rpg mechanics outside of story turns away many. Maybe instead of focusing on CoD fans and Gears of War fans, maybe BioWare should focus more on the The Elder Scrolls/Fallout crowd that is untapped. Trust me, many more TES fans would be interested if Mass Effect offered greater exploration and rpg mechanics.

Additionally, these armor types should be able to be worn by Shepard if Shepard chooses to. All should come in heavy or light armor to have distinctive differentiation and have 3 augmentation slots for upgrades through looting or purchase (example: Geth Shielding ranging 5-30% for one augmentation slot)

-Turian armor
-Drell armor
-Batarian armor
-Human armor
-----Alliance
-----Cerberus
-Merc armor
***Spectre armor

Each armor set with full description, one bonus and explained by stats. Why? Because stats enable the player to know how well a certain item is doing for them MATHEMATICALLY.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:46 .

[Terror_K]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Oh, so you don't want Bioware to be successful? How nice.

BioWare managed to be successful in the past without needing to resort to such tactics and needing to water down their games so much. The audience is there for it, DAO proved this, and its a fallacy to think that they won't succeed and still make money if they don't "branch out" etc. The problem is they're getting greedy and want to have their cake and eat it too.

It's not that I don't want BioWare to succeed; it's that I don't want them to be just like all the other developers these days: pushing out the same brown/grey mush of action-oriented story-driven titles with light RPG elements for the masses as some cold formula for the "perfect game" rather than anything deep and meaningful.

ME2's monumental critical success begs to differ.

Yet ME2's success apparently pales to Dragon Age: Origins, at least as far as sales and popularity goes (even if ME2 reviewed better).

Because CoD is the single most successful game franchise ever created, one of the most successful entertainment franchies ever, it must be tripe. Its popularity can't possibly be because it is good at what it does. Get off the CoD-bashing bandwagon. Its not cool anymore. Its not hipster. Its a stale argument and one that severely weakens the genuine points you do have in your argument. There are genuine points - this is not how Bioware should be marketing ME3, I agree with you there. But hating on popular games simply because they are popular seriously detracts from any valid points you're trying to make.

I've played almost all the CoD's. I still own the original, CoD3 and the first Modern Warfare. The rest are just generic rubbish pumped out with no real innovation every year. It's the most low-brow, simple, mainstream, overrated and derivative game series. Even more than Gears of War. It's the "Wrasslin'" of games. It exemplefies "lowest common denominator" and "herp derp"

Now before somebody jumps on me, I'm not saying anybody and everybody who plays CoD is like that, but that doesn't change what the game is or what it largely represents. I work in a game store and I see the people who are really into these games (and I mean REALLY into them). I was there at the Black Ops midnight launch last year. Trust me... most of these people weren't at the deep end of the gene pool.

Then again, I do live in a country where most of the population treat rugby like a religion and look and act like shaved gorillas, so maybe I'm biased as a whole.

You'd love Black Ops. That has far more numbers and stats than most RPGs. Or try some of the old Football Managers - they're pretty much comprised entirely of numbers. Right up your street.

Black Ops I haven't tried. Don't want to either. I'm done with CoD now. I have Football Manager 2010 and enjoy that a fair it though.

[InfiniteCuts]

Il Divo wrote...

This admittedly would be the only area which I find odd (assuming I were taking this ass seriously). I love Assassin's Creed, but how much could Bioware potentially learn from the series, for a tps/rpg hybrid? Citing Deus Ex  would be alot more appropriate, given the style of game they are making.

I'm actually less bothered by the comparisons to Halo/CoD. Learning from those games could simply mean borrowing the interface, or actual shooting mechanics, etc, which I thought Mass Effect desperately needed.

Thank you!  Deux Ex and ME3 are going head-to-head as far as I'm concerned... and the more I see from that game the less confident I am about ME3 being able to top it in terms of Action-RPG gameplay.  These are the guys (Eidos Montreal) BioWare needs to be looking at competitively and as inspiration... not Epic or Treyarch.

[SynheKatze]

Il Divo wrote...

EJ107 wrote...


"We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty "

This admittedly would be the only area which I find odd (assuming I were taking this ass seriously). I love Assassin's Creed, but how much could Bioware potentially learn from the series, for a tps/rpg hybrid? Citing Deus Ex  would be alot more appropriate, given the style of game they are making.

For the stealth parts maybe? They've been going on and on about how we can complete levels with some discretion. Too bad it hasn't been seen yet q.q

[sympathy4saren]

EJ107 wrote...

He really should have thought more carefully about exactly what he was saying. I know that Call of Duty games are the best sellers, and that Bioware want to able to cash in on that Market, but saying things like:

'Well, what about when I had this love affair?' It's like, who cares? It's all out war!"

Isn't going to make new people more likely to buy the game, It's just going to irritate the people who do care about those sort of things.

I also don't get why, when asked about RPG elements, he said:

"We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty "

When none of those mentioned are RPG's! Why couldn't he have listed something like Skyrim, which is at least a RPG, and from a very popular game series as well. Or Dragon Age Origins, which was very popular and would allieviate fears from people who disliked DA2?
If he had been asked a question about how the action and combat would be improved then this answer would have been fine, but if your asked about RPG features don't just list loads of popular games that have none of those features at all!

I'm sure that around 75% of the people who play the new game will have played at least Mass Effect 2, so alienating many of those people needlessly will get them nowhere. Why focus so much on making newcomers happy when the previous games already sold millions?

I have many friends who enjoy games like Call of Duty and Halo, but are more worried about Mass Effect 3's direction than I am. They admit themselves that they hate the single player on those games, and only buy them for the multiplayer. They like Mass Effect because it's different, and a strong single player experience. Bioware need to realise that if people wanted to play CoD or Halo then they would play CoD or Halo.

I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment.

I will say though, I am an Assassin's Creed fan and I love how they are putting more and more rpg elements in the game each game. In Revelations, I hear you can craft your own bombs and there are over 200 didn't ones you can make. Just wish that they didnt release a new game every year now....gonna wait til next summer to play Revelations.

Modifié par sympathy4saren, 22 juillet 2011 - 02:38 .

[Blarty]

The fact is, BW cannot make a game simply for the people who bought ME1 and ME2 and say to potential newcomers 'Well come back when you've played the other two, or at the very least the last one', it's not good for anyone

[PiercedMonk]

Could someone please explain to me -- as if to a child as I feel that will be the only way I'll understand -- what it is about piddling around with numbers that is so integral to playing a role.

Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy piddling around with numbers, as the amount of hours I've logged play kakuros would seem to attest.

However, when I began playing pen & paper RPGs early on in high school, the first game I was introduced to is 'Rifts'. For those unfamilar, creating a 'Rifts' characters could take several hours due to all the number crunching. Now, over a decade later, I still quite enjoy making characters in most pen & paper systems regardless of how long it takes, because figuring out how to make the numbers line up with a character concept is almost an exercise in problem solving. However, it's not the numbers which have me still playing once a week despite my supposed adulthood, but rather the enjoyment I got from sitting around a table with my friends, all of us entertaining one another by telling a story. Numbers facilitate the game, but do not make it. Kids playing Cops & Robbers in their backyard or role-playing, and they don't have to worry about some jackhole rules lawyer whining that game is being played wrong because no one else memorized the grapple rules.

The 'Mass Effect' games tell a story -- often an above average and at times they even a good story -- and allow the player to make choices that affect the direction and outcome of that story. Personally, I'll take that over all the numbers in the world.

If anyone honestly believes that the inventory sytem in 'ME:1' was superior to that of 'ME:2', you're wrong, and I can prove it with charts.

As for the complaint about the claim that the third part of a trilogy is a great jumping on point for people new to the serries, you don't actually expect the people trying to sell the game to say, "Hey, if you haven't played the first two, don't even bother with this one," do you?

Also, how would you feel about coming in at part four of a six part story? I assume everyone playing 'Mass Effect' has at least a passing familiarity with 'Star Wars'?

There's a term writers use, in media res, which is a narritive technique of begining a story in the middle of some flavour of conflict so as to open with drama or action as opposed to exposition. If the writers in charge of 'Mass Effect 3's story approach it with that mindset, then there's absolutely no reason someone who comes fresh to the serries never having played the previous games shouldn't feel comfortable diving right in.