370 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...

termokanden wrote...
Don't they just have different colors? It's not really a big difference in any case.

That's all nice and well, except that the third weapon is unique and high level loot exclusive. As I said, two models per weapon type.

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[C9316]

You can't be surprised by the quality of that article, I mean EA/Bioware wants to cater to the new people who never bothered or cared to pick up the other games. What better way to do that than mention that you've got influence from games like Halo, Gears, and Assassin's Creed, all which are whether you like it or not successful games. I'm still as excited for ME3 as I was when I saw the E3 demo though I will admit I desire more rpg features in ME, but if you want to whine just because of a bad article then go right ahead.

[Xarathox]

Lumikki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Compare what kind of GAME ME3 will be and it's target customer base. How you sell it to increase you customer base is important. If you really think it's better selling ME3 as advertise it's "deep" RPG elements then what I can I say than smile.

Again, what makes you think ME3 is going to have any actual "deep rpg elements" when you claim at the same time these don't sell?

I never thought that ME3 had any deep rpg elements. It was you who assumed that I think so. As selling (marketing) "deep RPG elements" in game what isn't even classic RPG. You still wonder why I'm laughing it as marketing idea?

ME1 -> ME2 -> ME3, direction unclear to anyone?

Given that according to opinions stated in this thread this translates to "shallow rpg" -> "shallower rpg" -> "deeper rpg" yes. There doesn't seem to be any direction here to speak of, much less a clear one.

Look above and try use you brain again.

El Fixed-o

Modifié par Xarathox, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:32 .

[GarrusIsMyBro]

I think that Mass Effect 2 was the perfect blend of RPG and Shooter. It had enough action mixed in with RPG elements. But adding more shooter elements and taking away they RPG elements is definetley alienating Bioware's older fans. However, just because you don't monitor stats as much doesn't mean that it's not an RPG. An RPG means that you play a role in a story. (Well at least from my point of view. I don't want to offend anyone.) I just hope that Bioware keeps the choose your own adventure style and doesn't make the game a streamlined 6 hour shooter.

[utdan]

Terror_K wrote...

http://www.computera...ure-y-than-me2/

Seriously... as an RPG fan, are these comments from David Silverman of marketing supposed to be encouraging? The more he says, the more he seems to make me more skeptical and worry about ME3's overall direction and focus, as well as BioWare as a whole:

CVG article says...

"This is definitely the best chance we have in the series to really break out and go truly blockbuster," BioWare marketing boss David Silverman told CVG.

So ME3 is even more of a cheap modern Hollywood style action flick than ME2 was then?

Blockbuster means widespread popularity and big sales not the type of game it is.

"It's a natural entry point for new players: giant alien race launches all-out war, you have to rally the forces of the universe to counter and see if you can take them down. That's pretty clear. You don't need to be like: 'Well, what about when I had this love affair?' It's like, who cares? It's all out war!"

I care for one. I understand that this is the big Reaper battle, but that doesn't mean everything has to be so overtly focused on "Action! Action! Action!" with no real substance.

True, the last line was a stupid thing to say, but it seems pretty obvious that he's trying to convince new gamers to get me3 and assuring them that playing the other 2 games isnt a pre-requisite is a good way to do that.  

"We're hoping for a big hit. It's the best game we've ever made at BioWare Edmonton.

Yeah... I heard the same line prior to ME2 coming out. And even something similar regarding DA2. Both were very far from BioWare's "best game ever!"

Well a LOT of people would disagree with you on me2 (being the most critically acclaimed and probably most popular bioware game) not being biowares best game, but its subjective.

"Absolutely. Hands down. We've done a lot of research about what people liked about Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and other games too - what they like about Gears Of War, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Call Of Duty and lots of RPG games too.

So... you're looking far more at some of the most trite, overrated and simple games from recent history aimed at appealing to the lowest common denominator as the main focus for making ME3. I notice that he couldn't even name a single RPG that was looked at for influence... just four big mainstream hitters, three of which are mindless, shallow tripe aimed squarely at the shooter crowd.

No they're looking at the best shooters and action games to help improve shooter/action mechanics i seriously doubt they're looking at COD for character development. He didnt mention rpg games because he is trying to get new gamers to play the series and shooters are a lot more popular therefore comparing me3 with the above games will get interest from more people.

As an RPG fan how am I supposed to be confident in statements like that? How am I supposed to believe BioWare cares about us when they name only mainstream action titles for influence but can't even drop the name of one RPG? I thought ME3 was supposed to be becoming less "dudebro" and not more?

Like i said they'll be looking at those games for the action mechanics not story development or character interaction. It's his job to get the most people interested from the gaming community, most of the gaming community wants TEH ACTIONZ so thats what he gives them. If the devs were saying the same as him on these boards i would worry, but they're not, so its obviously them just playing to their respective audiences. 

Divid silvermans audience (in that article atleast) does not include you or me, so what he emphasises probably wont appeal to us. Priestly, Woo, et al are on these boards to help sell the game to us, so what they say should appeal to us.
     

"We've looked at all these games to see what's resonating and what's not. On the one hand, we don't want to go too far down the RPG rabbit hole where Shepard starts rolling dice, but on the other hand we don't want to ignore that coolness - where people can customise parts of their character and making them feel that it's them in the adventure. We capitalise on that in spades in ME3."

Oh, so only the "cool" RPG factors stay. They have to be the customisation, but nothing that adds actual depth or numbers, because numbers are scary.

Well...yeah, the mass effect series is a TPS/rpg hybrid ofcourse they're only gonna include the good rpg elements. ME got slated by a lot of people for superfluous and tedious rpg  elements and me2 was slated for not having enough, so they're trying to find a balance. As we've already seen in screen shots/demo's the powers and guns have customisable stats so there's your numbers. In temrs of RPG depth from what i've seen ME3 seems like it will be atleast as deep as ME without the tedious parts.  

Oh, and before people start going on about "people at these forums always complaining" as if everybody else loves the direction ME2 took and the sound of things for ME3, here are some comments from CVG itself posted by users about the article:

lots of quotes

Well everyones entitled to their beleifs I just think it would be better to consider the context and reasoning behind something before getting angry about it.

Reaction in bold to summarise: that article is to attract new players from general gaming community, general gaming community wants action so thats what is emphasised. If you want to learn about the rpg elements check the known features thread and other sources (like twiter) that are more geared towards existing ME/bioware fans.

Also i apologise if that came off as a personal attack, it wasn't meant to be. I also agree that some more detailed info on RPG mechanics would be nice, i just dont expect it to come from an article like this one.  

Modifié par whoISthatgirl, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:35 .

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just love how people pretend that ME1 had some really deep RPG mechanics.

this

[Pride Demon]

Adanu wrote...

Wow.... this is the PR boss for Bioware?

Not AFAIK; that should be Mr. Priestly as he is the one managing the contact between the developers and their public (that is, us)... Mr. Silverman is the Marketing boss, and if any of you ever saw a member of the "vendor caste" at work in an establishment, Mr. Silverman is just doing his job...

Selling a product is not child's play...
Back in the day, Henry Ford could afford to say "I allow my customers to decide the colour of their car... So long as said colour is BLACK!", which translated means "You want a car, I am the only producer so you STFU and buy it from me the way I make it. You don't like my cars, well, I'm the only producer, so just forget about having a car..."
Even worse, the early marketing campaigns for cars were "... And it REALLY works!"...

Times have changed: there are a lot of tough competitors, the users can thus afford to be choosy...
Today no one buys a car because it works, that's a given, you buy it because it has confy seats, air conditioning, it's seamless to drive on rough terrain, it's nice to look at, you name it... All things that have nothing to do with the actual job the car has to do...

Same with the games, today any two bit programmer has the ability of creating a simple system that tracks variables to reflect decisions and tracks character stats (thus basically creating some basic RPG), what a games is sold for now is EXTREME choice reflection (everything you do impacts the world somewhat), graphics, exciting gameplay, etc... Aside from the first, most of these are things that can be seen in every game, so you have to find something that convinces the public yours is the best game, the one game they'll want to throw their money away for...

The best way to do so is catering to what you know attracts, making good use of the good points of your game (putting emphasis on them rather then what could be a defect)...
The famed "Awesome Button" everyone mocks Mr. Silverman for is a perfect example of marketing strategy, you try and convice there's some amazing feature no one else has, something unique, so the gamers would be interested in looking out what it is, by buying the game...

And to those who think Bioware is forgetting its veterans in favour of new players: consider that for every 1 "veteran" there's 1000 "dumb" newcomers with a lot of money to spend, if they really were on a money grabbing rush then they would have stopped putting up with us all a LONG time ago... The very point of this Social Network was listening to what the "veterans" think and their opinions...

The fact they search for new markets is just natural survival instinct for any establishment: if you sell children toys in an isolated village you have monopoly, but if the children grow up and leave, so no new children are born in the village, you'll eventually run out of business... The same way if BioWare only caters to veterans they'll run out of players sooner or later (I doubt any of us is immortal, and I don't see myself playing games as an old grey man), since anyone has to be the "dumb" newcomer before becoming a veteran, it's obvious Bioware is just creating a future market for its games...

To the point, don't feel too down for what Mr. Silverman says, his job is to create a maket, to create hype in new players, it's not like what he says is all we'll see in the game...
And before attacking the way one does his/her job, it would be a sign of respect actually understanding what said job requres and how it works, otherwise it's obvious the ones that complain look like uninformed whiners, even if it's not so...

Just my two cents...

[Phaedon]

GarrusIsMyBro wrote...

I think that Mass Effect 2 was the perfect blend of RPG and Shooter. It had enough action mixed in with RPG elements. But adding more shooter elements and taking away they RPG elements is definetley alienating Bioware's older fans. However, just because you don't monitor stats as much doesn't mean that it's not an RPG. An RPG means that you play a role in a story. (Well at least from my point of view. I don't want to offend anyone.) I just hope that Bioware keeps the choose your own adventure style and doesn't make the game a streamlined 6 hour shooter.

Well, the thing is, ME2 had plenty of stats, why BioWare decided not to show them off as bars is beyond me.

[TheCrakFox]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Mr. Silverman.
I am curious as to why BioWare keeps him around, do they have data suggesting he improves sales?

[termokanden]

GodWood: Yep thos are different models. Most of the weapons look very similar though. But fair enough, there are some different models.

That isn't really the bad part about ME1's inventory system. The bad part is how little choice there actually is when you have so many weapons. You don't sit there with your Spectre AR and think "maybe another AR would be better against husks". Almost all of the loot is absolutely redundant. That's the problem.

I do also think there is some truth to the "same look and feel" argument. There is a much bigger difference in look and feel between the different weapons in each category in ME2. There are much fewer weapons of course, and that system is far from flawless as well (since the weapons aren't exactly balanced).

I would like to add (as I said earlier as well) that they didn't actually have to scrap the inventory system from ME1. It could have been better organized and balanced and some more flavor and tradeoffs put in there so you didn't always choose the same weapon. That was not what they chose to do, and I think that's a shame. But again, I much prefer the system in ME2 to the one in ME1.

Modifié par termokanden, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:39 .

[GodWood]

Phaedon wrote...
That's all nice and well, except that the third weapon is unique and high level loot exclusive. As I said, two models per weapon type.

And that's why I was correcting termokanden.
Not you.

[marshalleck]

This pretty much sums up my opinion of people who work in marketing.

Modifié par marshalleck, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:36 .

[tmp7704]

Lumikki wrote...

I never thinked that ME3 has any deep rpg elements. It was you who assumed that I think so.

That assumption was based on your initial post (and then further clarifications) as they'd make very little sense otherwise. Not that they made that much sense even with said assumption, like we're in middle of discussing.

If i instead take what you say now as sign of the opposite, i.e. you believe ME3 isn't going to have any deep rpg elements, then your comment how the "old customer base knows what they're getting" becomes even more contradictory, and the point of your initial post even more muddled.

[termokanden]

GodWood wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
That's all nice and well, except that the third weapon is unique and high level loot exclusive. As I said, two models per weapon type.

And that's why I was correcting termokanden.
Not you.

Again I admit there are two models per weapon plus the unique Geth rifle of course. The different color thing is very true though. You'll have those same models in different colors instead of having actually different weapons.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

GarrusIsMyBro wrote...

I think that Mass Effect 2 was the perfect blend of RPG and Shooter. It had enough action mixed in with RPG elements. But adding more shooter elements and taking away they RPG elements is definetley alienating Bioware's older fans. However, just because you don't monitor stats as much doesn't mean that it's not an RPG. An RPG means that you play a role in a story. (Well at least from my point of view. I don't want to offend anyone.) I just hope that Bioware keeps the choose your own adventure style and doesn't make the game a streamlined 6 hour shooter.

Well, the thing is, ME2 had plenty of stats, why BioWare decided not to show them off as bars is beyond me.

Inb4CoDhate

Modifié par Mesina2, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:42 .

[GarrusIsMyBro]

What really got me is when he talked about the non-importance of love interests. Love interests add to the story factor and make you appreciate the characters more. I know I'll still probably be getting this game but the Mass Effect series are my favorite games for a reason, and if they change what I liked about them then I will be very disappointed.

[Varen Spectre]

Mmmm, I don't know, I like RPGs and many traditional RPG elements and I would like to see many of them to be implemented in Mass Effect games (such as more complex inventory system, more complex loot, more non-combat skills, etc.) but... somehow I can't get rid of a feeling that OP is unnecessarily hard on Bioware this time.

1. I mean, they have already shown us some customization elements which included graphs and numbers and which are already better than they were in Mass Effect 2...





and according to confirmed features thread, we have been promised at least few more...

2. It's marketing director who was talking. Even from developers themselves, I would not expect nothing less than answer confirming that the upcoming game is their best and if somebody has not played any of the previous games, it's the best time to do so.

3. As for the games which inspired the developers... Well, even the developers of relatively hardcore and relatively "faithful to RPG origins" game such as Witcher 2, have admitted that they were inspired by games like
Arkham Asylum or Heavy Rain (and by Mass Effect 2 too:D) and look how well it turned out.

I agree with the rest of the points though, but still... I would recommend more "positive" criticism  with new proposals what to do and how to do it or pointing out on games that do something "right" - for example, Javierabegazo tends to have good threads, when he wants to discuss implementaion of some feature - instead of simple complaining.

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:45 .

[termokanden]

The funny thing is that CoD's weapon stats are often misleading.

Modifié par termokanden, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[tmp7704]

Phaedon wrote...

That's all nice and well, except that the third weapon is unique and high level loot exclusive. As I said, two models per weapon type.

Two models and multiple different textures for each variant still means visual variety as the outcome. Heck, if ME2 is anything to go by just recolour alone is enough (see: companion armours and extra payment required to get anything more than that)

[GarrusIsMyBro]

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

GarrusIsMyBro wrote...

I think that Mass Effect 2 was the perfect blend of RPG and Shooter. It had enough action mixed in with RPG elements. But adding more shooter elements and taking away they RPG elements is definetley alienating Bioware's older fans. However, just because you don't monitor stats as much doesn't mean that it's not an RPG. An RPG means that you play a role in a story. (Well at least from my point of view. I don't want to offend anyone.) I just hope that Bioware keeps the choose your own adventure style and doesn't make the game a streamlined 6 hour shooter.

Well, the thing is, ME2 had plenty of stats, why BioWare decided not to show them off as bars is beyond me.

I've only ever tried Modern Warfare 2, which was one of the worst gaming experiences of my life! But I hear that even most COD fans hate Black Ops because they don't like customizing armor and spending points to buy it.

Inb4CoDhate

[hangmans tree]

Somehow...he lists aaall the mainstream games by name but and lots of RPG games too.
Somehow I dont feel as if its last but not least case here

But I heard it all before:
- Best game in the series
- Best game we've ever done
- We wanted to make it special
- the awesome
- an awesome
- something cool
- we don't want to
- we want to
- ...
What is said and what is delivered are often two different kind of animals. Both rabid I suppose.

Modifié par hangmans tree, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:46 .

[termokanden]

tmp7704 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

That's all nice and well, except that the third weapon is unique and high level loot exclusive. As I said, two models per weapon type.

Two models and multiple different textures for each variant still means visual variety as the outcome. Heck, if ME2 is anything to go by just recolour alone is enough (see: companion armours and extra payment required to get anything more than that)

The appearance packs are a bit of a ripoff I think. But we were talking about weapons. The weapons are much more varied in ME2. Also for squadmates.

I've only ever tried Modern Warfare 2, which was one of the worst gaming experiences of my life! But I hear that even most COD fans hate Black Ops because they don't like customizing armor and spending points to buy it/

You're way off on that one. You don't HAVE to customize your armor in Black Ops. The perks and weapon mods were also there in MW2. But it actually seems like a lot of people go out of their way to design "funny" emblems and customize their characters and weapons.

Having to spend points is only an issue if you don't play it enough. You're swimming in points by level 30-40.

It's more likely that CoD fans will be complaining about mechanics, like quickscoping.

Modifié par termokanden, 22 juillet 2011 - 11:51 .

[Tripedius]

I really don't get BW with all this focus on new players and the whoring from other games. It's part three of the game and if the fans from ME & ME2 don't like it, I don't think other people will think ' well the fans of the series don't like it, so now I'm going to buy it'. Besides ME2 sold briljantly, much better than most games, so if BW isn't careful they are going to slaughter the goose with the golden eggs. A story that really seems appropiate for BW/EA these days.

[GodWood]

termokanden wrote...
Again I admit there are two models per weapon plus the unique Geth rifle of course. The different color thing is very true though. You'll have those same models in different colors instead of having actually different weapons.

Indeed

[Tamahome560]

Not this sh*t again...