370 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

It's basically like expecting to see the trailer of the latest Harry Potter movie say "Yeah, you are f***ed if you didn't see the previous ones".

That would all be very well if BioWare's marketing really was just "all talk" as it were, but ME2 and DA2 have proven there's a great deal of truth to their marketing. Both were filled with cases of marketing annoying fans and BioWare saying, "don't worry, that's merely to bring in newcomers, they're still deep, strong RPGs, etc." to try and placate said fans, only for them to discover upon release that their worrying was right. Especially with DA2 which ended up being even worse in the end than it looked. ME2 at least was a little better than marketing made it look.

[didymos1120]

Babli wrote...

I cant take him seriously.

This is the proper response. 

[Pride Demon]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

I'm not going to disparage Mr. Silverman or suggest he be fired... he seems like he enjoys his job and brings a little enthusiasm with it. Whether or not his methods are "successful" is up for debate since we have none of the metrics either way. One thing I've noticed is that few "core" fans seem to take him seriously as a credible source of ME info on anything outside of hype.

What I'm curious about, however, is what market he is communicating with through that article. Any gamer with disposable income and an average IQ knows that Mass Effect is NOT the game you look to as an alternative to GoW, Halo, CoD or any other AAA shooter out there. So who is it they are marketing to when they say things like this?

The shooter or action-adventure fan reads that article... chuckles a little... then moves on to other articles/games that are of real interest to them. Meanwhile, Mass Effect fans read it and are left confused or try their best to rationalize it as marketing hype. Who is actually getting excited when they read some of the comments he makes? People that have never played Mass Effect 1 or 2? Is it worth it to aggressively market to this particular group at the expense of your existing base?

Not always the case... There are no definitive separations between fans: I for one enjoy Unreal (not the tournaments, the ACTUAL Unreal), Half-Life and Halo on one side and NWN2, Gothic, ME and Dragon Age on the other (just to name a few)...
There may well be borderline cases that enjoy shooters and are curious about RPG, but are not sold on them because they think (wrongly I believe) RPGs to be nerdy and complicated...

Introducing in the spin something that can make gameplay more dynamic for old users and appeals to what a shooter fan knows is a good move, but obviously when you do marketing it's harder to convince the shooter fan he may enjoy the RPG rather than convincing the RPG fan, who knows how the company makes games, they should still buy their games...

Mr. Silverman caters to possible new customers convincing them they'll enjoy the game, since he handles maketing...
We "veterans" have to look for the PR, Mr. Priestly, for the cool tidbits of info we like, after all we already are their customers...

Modifié par Pride Demon, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .

[termokanden]

Phaedon wrote...

Actually ME2 weapons have two times the stats displayed there. Check the wiki.

You can't see them in the game though. CoD weapons have more stats than this too, by the way. How does the recoil work, for example (this one is pretty important). The stats in CoD are a poor representation of the actual performance of the weapons.

[Phaedon]

Lumikki wrote...
I don't get this, why you included action-adventure fan read this and say they would not be interested. When hole Mass Effect serie is very close to action-adventure market. I can understand first person shooter hardcore fans passing ME serie like plague.  I don't know why ME old fans would be confused marketing and actual game information? 

Marketing is there to sell game for new customers, get them interested about the product.
Marketing is not there to explain old customers what they product is, because they allready know it.

I know that I am a shooter fan, an action adventure fan (most people use that genre without knowing what it means anyway), and an adventure fan and I definitely didn't chuckle. 

Actually chuckling when I am on my PC after reading an article seems like a weird thing to do.

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
I'd say it's a better argument for "even most shooters these days do RPG better than ME2 did, and it was supposed to be an RPG" 

Actually ME2 weapons have two times the stats displayed there. Check the wiki.

Why should I need to look at a friggin wiki. Why can't I see them IN THE GAME?

Saying ME2 has stats with that logic is like saying any shooter has stats if you look in the code. I know, for example, that The Enforcer in UT does up to 25 damage without damage amp. That doesn't make it a stat. All games have stats for everything if you want to get down to the nitty gritty.

Pride Demon wrote...

after all we already are their customers...

That can change though. It already has for me regarding one IP of theirs.

Modifié par Terror_K, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:23 .

[Phaedon]

termokanden wrote...
You can't see them in the game though. CoD weapons have more stats than this too, by the way. How does the recoil work, for example (this one is pretty important). The stats in CoD are a poor representation of the actual performance of the weapons.

True enough, though CoD weapons don't really have protection modifiers.

I really can't understand why the hell BioWare had those stats in-game, then published them on the forums, but never actually showed them, either as numbers or bars.

[Tasker]

I still can't figure out why they still use this Douchebag to do their PR work.

The guy's a muppet. All he manages to do is rub people up the wrong way and making it seem more and more that Bioware care only about cattering to the mindless plebians, no longer giving a rats arse about the loyal fans that have been with them from the beginning. Without whom thay wouldn't be where they are in the first place.

Bioware might as well just admit it, they don't want to make RPGs anymore and would rather take the easy copout route of the mindless "we don't have to put thought into development" FPS games.

They haven't been kings of the RPG world for a long time now and that's a very sad thing.

Will I buy ME3?  I honestly don't know, it all depends upon what they show between now and release.  But If I do buy it, it's probably going to be the last Bioware game I ever buy.  Which is sad as I have at least 2 copies of everything Bioware have done upto and including ME1.

Modifié par Orkboy, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:28 .

[Dem_B]

Mass Effect 2 was not the same game that I wanted to play. After Mass Effect 2 I've had a mixed Impressions, I can't say that I liked the game as a whole. I have been waiting for not this. I felt that nothing of Mass Effect 1 was not significant, beginning of Mass Effect 2 clearly gives to understand. 

RPG? Come on, look better how is awesome when nuclear explosion will blow up of astronaut.

Now I feel that Mass Effect 3 will not just my last game from BioWare, but the last game in general, because already there is no fact that I like as a whole. But I still have a hope, maybe we will change something. 

[tmp7704]

Phaedon wrote...

I really can't understand why the hell BioWare had those stats in-game, then published them on the forums, but never actually showed them, either as numbers or bars.

Possibly because when people were dissing ME, it ran along the lines of "the inventory screen shows me all these weapons, and they all have bars with different lengths and it's all meaningless to me" So they axed it like about everything else that got criticized.

[Phaedon]

Terror_K wrote...
Why should I need to look at a friggin wiki. Why can't I see them IN THE GAME?

Saying ME2 has stats with that logic is like saying any shooter has stats if you look in the code. I know, for example, that The Enforcer in UT does up to 25 damage without damage amp. That doesn't make it a stat. All games have stats for everything if you want to get down to the nitty gritty.

I am sorry, do you have an argument?

The descriptions describe both the stats and the playstyle:
Unleashes a storm of deadly high velocity slugs. Less accurate than an assault rifle, but has a high ammo capacity and deals much more damage. Effective against armor, shields and biotic barriers. Upgrades the Vindicator Battle Rifle.This custom-made machine gun features technology not widely available. Protected against replication by sophisticated Fabrication Rights Management (FRM) technology, only the richest and most powerful warlords can afford this weapon.

Therefore, not being able to understand what is what is your own fault. I just don't understand why BioWare didn't represent them graphically as well. Maybe they didn't consider it necessary.

And yes, shooters do have more stats than RPGs, what's your point? Everyone knows that, it's just that ME1 had fewer stats than even your classic, typical RPG. It also didn't have a complex inventory or items. 3 stats, that translate exactly the same in-game (other than the acc. modifier which is the 4th stat, but that may be universal, so it may not even be one of the stats you are referring to), but the worse problem was that all of the weapons have an up or down pattern. That's what broke the game.

[Someone With Mass]

Terror_K wrote...

That would all be very well if BioWare's marketing really was just "all talk" as it were, but ME2 and DA2 have proven there's a great deal of truth to their marketing. Both were filled with cases of marketing annoying fans and BioWare saying, "don't worry, that's merely to bring in newcomers, they're still deep, strong RPGs, etc." to try and placate said fans, only for them to discover upon release that their worrying was right. Especially with DA2 which ended up being even worse in the end than it looked. ME2 at least was a little better than marketing made it look.

I just want to bash everyone's heads in when they're saying: "Whaaaa, DA2 wasn't perfect, and that sets the standard for every BioWare game from here on!"

DA2 AND ME2 HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON BEYOND THE BIOWARE LOGO, YOU IDIOTS!

They don't have the same budget, nor development time, nor writers, nor designers, nor the same setting. Nothing. The teams aren't even aware of the other team's work until they've played the game.

And if they draw inspiration from each other's games, that's not a big deal, because it happens all the goddamn time.

Jesus mother****ing Christ on a Pogo stick, people are whiny and dense. 

[Tasker]

Someone With Mass wrote...


DA2 AND ME2 HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON BEYOND THE BIOWARE LOGO, YOU IDIOTS!

You mean other than them both being butchered dumbed down versions of their previous incarnations?

[Phaedon]

tmp7704 wrote...
Possibly because when people were dissing ME, it ran along the lines of "the inventory screen shows me all these weapons, and they all have bars with different lengths and it's all meaningless to me" So they axed it like about everything else that got criticized.

It's a possibility, though I still can't make sense out of it. What would be the problem with adding bars or stats but not showing them in pre-release screenshots?

If they reworked the weapons, which they did, then no one would have an issue with that.

[Phaedon]

Orkboy wrote...
You mean other than them both being butchered dumbed down versions of their previous incarnations?

I haven't played DA2 yet (I still need to finish DA:O), but ME2 required less intelligence than ME1?

[Pride Demon]

Orkboy wrote...

I still can't figure out why they still use this Douchebag to do their PR work.

Like I said, as far as I know he is not the PR, that's Chris Priestly... Mr. Silverman is the Marketing director...
Also, like I said, courtesy would dictate one to try and understand what a position requires and how it works before attacking the one performing it...

I never saw Mr. Silverman do anything that is in any way worse than what any other Marketing person I saw in action would do...

[tmp7704]

Phaedon wrote...

It's a possibility, though I still can't make sense out of it. What would be the problem with adding bars or stats but not showing them in pre-release screenshots?

I think that may be not as much a problem, but rather something like "oh fine if the bars are meaningless then we can just not bother putting them in. One less thing to code/debug/make art for/worry about."

edit: (to clarify that's not a critique. it does make some sense to skip work on something if the feedback indicates it's pointless)

Modifié par tmp7704, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:37 .

[Lumikki]

Orkboy wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...


DA2 AND ME2 HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON BEYOND THE BIOWARE LOGO, YOU IDIOTS!

You mean other than them both being butchered dumbed down versions of their previous incarnations?

Not really. ME2 was actual fix for ME1 issues, except some RPG customation what was cutted off without any good reason. DA2 how ever, wasn't fix in DAO's issues. It's totally different situations.

[Someone With Mass]

Orkboy wrote...

You mean other than them both being butchered dumbed down versions of their previous incarnations?

Oh, I bet ME1 required a vast intelligence to play.

If you honestly want to feel intelligent while playing a game, play a game of chess and then do this.

[Phaedon]

Pride Demon wrote...

Like I said, as far as I know he is not the PR, that's Chris Priestly... Mr. Silverman is the Marketing director...
Also, like I said, courtesy would dictate one to try and understand what a position requires and how it works before attacking the one performing it...

I never saw Mr. Silverman do anything that is in any way worse than what any other Marketing person I saw in action would do...

Well, technically, it doesn't seem like a PR agent exists, not with the classic definition anyway, Priestly is the Community Director, whereas Silverman seems to be the Marketing director. Well, technically, PR has been more succesful with Silverman, though there may of course be more factors that come into play.

I am referring to this: http://social.biowar...3/index/7715615

tmp7704 wrote...
I think that may be not as much a problem, but rather something like "oh fine if the bars are meaningless then we can just not bother putting them in. One less thing to code/debug/make art for/worry about."

edit: (to clarify that's not a critique. it does make some sense to skip work on something if the feedback indicates it's pointless)

Well, that does make some sense.

Modifié par Phaedon, 22 juillet 2011 - 12:38 .

[InfiniteCuts]

didymos1120 wrote...

InfiniteCuts wrote...

Meanwhile, Mass Effect fans read it and are left confused or try their best to rationalize it as marketing hype.

It doesn't require rationalizing.  It's dead obvious that it's marketing hype.  Generally speaking, that's what the stuff that people in marketing say is.

Alright... but do you think the way they're going about it is effective?  Why market your game in a way that downplays some of its core mechanics (they are forever downplaying anything that has to do with RPG i.e. 'we don't want to go too far down the RPG rabbit hole') and offers little that entices the new crowd you're marketing to?  Again, who is getting excited when they read that article or hear things from other devs that seem to indicate ME3 is distancing itself from its RPG roots and going for more action gameplay?  Who sees the turret sequence in ME3 and says "you know, this game just might be better than GoW"?  Is it worth it to market so aggressively to this crowd?  I'm just not seeing how all of this downplaying of the precedents set in the first two games is going to work to anyone's benefit.

[ryoldschool]

didymos1120 wrote...

hangmans tree wrote...

I think there is a leak somewher in BW HQ. Of poisonous gas. Or the water supply is soiled with dangerous bacteria that causes halucination and debilitation.

The final part of a trilogy? The perfect entry point?

No, they're not high and they know quite well that playing all three from the start is the best way to experience the story, but they're just hoping people buy the game anyway.  See, if they do, they'll not only make money from that ME3 sale, but there's a good chance their new customer will then go back and buy both ME1 and ME2 and they'll make even more money.  Just look at how often we see people going "I played ME2. It was awesome, so I just bought ME1...." on the forums.  Given that, why wouldn't you try to talk people into buying ME3, regardless of whether they played 1 and 2?

^this.  I got me2 because reviewers said it was the best game they ever played.  Played it for 6 months and then wanted to get the rest of the full story, so bought and played me1. 

[Bourne Endeavor]

While I would like to smack Silverman and pick apart of little thing he said. Keep in mind he is trying to swindle in the FPS crowd. If he talked about anything beyond combat and action, it is liable to bore people. Look at movie trailers, which depict nothing but the most exhilarating or intriguing scenes available provided they do not reveal the plot. We all should know by now BioWare spews utterly nonsense when it comes to their marketing.

[Lumikki]

InfiniteCuts wrote...

I'm just not seeing how all of this downplaying of the precedents set in the first two games is going to work to anyone's benefit.

Do, you see how marketing example ME2 would be good for hardcore classic RPG fans?