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[Master Warder Z_]

happy_daiz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

You do realize that in the Legion's capacity for Warriors, Slaves and Workers you will need a constant influx of women to maintain needed breeding equibrillium.

Are you kidding me?

Mr.House wrote...

Hopefully no one killed any bighorns in that quest.

I would never dream of it.

No?

You want to avoid inbreeding as much as possible in FO after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Addai67 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

truely? Considering he built a society that is capable of waging war on the same level as the NCR and even managing to fight them to a standstill and even in some cases win against them, I would state that his model is at least effective at producing a military and supplying them.

What's so impressive about that?  If you're willing to kill, steal and terrorize, that's far more effective than the NCR's annexation method.

I have no love for the NCR, mind you. Like I said, that's a false dichotomy. Who needs them.

If your a man yes.

That generally is the point people stand behind when they oppose the Legion, Gender Equality is non existant for them.

It's only one and not the worst of Caesar's sins. I'm not even going to address your other points because they're all self-serving means to prop up the egos of a few megalomaniacal men. There are no ideals there, it's not a society, it's a big prison run by little boys who like to tear the wings off flies.

It's impressive because despite the NCR having more advanced techology, access to better resources and having all their strength that allowed them to survive the decades prior, a war with the BOS and the enclave and they are losing to men with sharpened sticks and pointy bits of metal.

Is it merely because the Legion produces better soldiers or more of them? Or is in fact because the Legion mind set puts the idea of the society into the Individual and they fight not for themselves but for that society.

Is it a sin? I don't view it as such, at least not in the light of FO.

You must have strength in that world to merely continue to exist every day, when you form a Martial Nation that requires the entire society to be strong and thus having a surplus of warriors and the means to produce them. Understand that i get the agrument against the Legion, i just don't think it applies to them if you look at the perspective of them from In game.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree; I view the Legion as a nessary evil to stabilize the American Continent or at least portions of it after most of it has fallen into insanity following the nuclear war centuries before.

[Master Warder Z_]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This thread ... what happened to it whilst I was playing FO3?

...A better, more worthy addition of FO actually got brought up and discussed?

No offense to any who actually enjoy FO 3 by the way, Its just...It never really even felt like a Fallout game to me.

[Mr.House]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

This thread ... what happened to it whilst I was playing FO3?

...A better, more worthy addition of FO actually got brought up and discussed?

No offense to any who actually enjoy FO 3 by the way, Its just...It never really even felt like a Fallout game to me.

Ditto. NV for me ist he true FO3, FO3 is liek Tactics in my mind.

[Addai]

Master Warder Z wrote...
It's impressive because despite the NCR having more advanced techology, access to better resources and having all their strength that allowed them to survive the decades prior, a war with the BOS and the enclave and they are losing to men with sharpened sticks and pointy bits of metal.

Eddie has just as much access to technology as anyone else if he wants it. What's that pneumatic fist he's wearing if not technology? There isn't an arms race in the West because everyone is using basic guns and pointy sticks. The only one who relies on Old World tech for his military strategy is House. The difference between the NCR and Legion is that the NCR doesn't terrorize the people they mean to rule.

As for stabilizing, well we'll see how stable they are once Caesar and Lanius are dead and it's left to these overblown egos to decide who gets to play emperor of the world next. My bet is that those tribes go back to being tribes faster than you can say sic transit gloria mundi. Because there's no loyalty there for the average person, no sense of citizenship or participating in their own destiny, only terror.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2014 - 10:26 .

[Addai]

We're also posting screenshots and talking about quests, characters and voice actors- what are we supposed to talk about in this thread? We happen to be talking about FNV because that's what several of us are playing. I'd play FO3, too, if I could.

[Master Warder Z_]

Addai67 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
It's impressive because despite the NCR having more advanced techology, access to better resources and having all their strength that allowed them to survive the decades prior, a war with the BOS and the enclave and they are losing to men with sharpened sticks and pointy bits of metal.

Eddie has just as much access to technology as anyone else if he wants it. What's that pneumatic fist he's wearing if not technology? There isn't an arms race in the West because everyone is using basic guns and pointy sticks. The only one who relies on Old World tech for his military strategy is House. The difference between the NCR and Legion is that the NCR doesn't terrorize the people they mean to rule.

As for stabilizing, well we'll see how stable they are once Caesar and Lanius are dead and it's left to these overblown egos to decide who gets to play emperor of the world next. My bet is that those tribes go back to being tribes faster than you can say sic transit gloria mundi. Because there's no loyalty there for the average person, no sense of citizenship or participating in their own destiny, only terror.

Not exactly my point but i suppose i should eblorate no? Legion Soldiers are forced to train with out equipment because at the end of the day, Guns Jam, Energy Weapons get dirty and misfire putting your faith into your own body and into a blade will generally serve you far better at least in so far as creating more effective, more adapative soldiers.

To address your point of the Legion Culture being false...

And you garnered all this from the what...Two impartial Non Legion People from their lands in the game despite them speaking quite well of the Legion?

Impressive.

I mean its a shame but the people from Colorado, Arizonia and their other lands rarely make their way into the Moajve to interact with the Courier however the few that do? The few non blinded by the NCR bias anyway speak of the society as exactly as i have described.

A well ordered and stabilized place.

As much as you may wish to depise the Legion; I think there are many within it who do actually buy into the little Rome Mark two Production Caesar has begot.

Besides my personal speculation of the Legion Lands Aside i doubt the Legion would be overly Harsh with their own people as long as they continue to work for the Legion's Aims and considering you even have Private Trade and Bussiness occuring it clearly isn't as harsh as many would like to believe.

Its an Autocratic State Certainly but its not an assured leap from there to assume it to be a Totalitarian State, Again though Totalitarianism in so far as it self isn't a negative, its just so often abused it has gotten that reptuation.

[Addai]

You don't need to rely on NCR sources, you have plenty of testimony from the Legion themselves about how they treat their "citizens"- like the Legion slave ledger and Vulpes "that **** with the dog on his head" Inculta bragging about his lottery.

The things people praise is there isn't random crime on the roads. Oh, but you pass by a few crucifixions. Or a few hundred. Of course people making money off the system aren't complaining.

The NCR is over-extended and shouldn't be in the Mojave anyway, so sure they aren't able to provide security there. And they've got their own thugs, to be sure. But I think you'd have to be insane to actually want the legion to take over in your area. That's where Caesar's civilization (I use that term very loosely) falls apart. The real Romans were pretty good at making people actually want to be Roman.

[Mr.House]

Addai67 wrote...

You don't need to rely on NCR sources, you have plenty of testimony from the Legion themselves about how they treat their "citizens"- like the Legion slave ledger and Vulpes "that **** with the dog on his head" Inculta bragging about his lottery.

The things people praise is there isn't random crime on the roads. Oh, but you pass by a few crucifixions. Or a few hundred. Of course people making money off the system aren't complaining.

The NCR is over-extended and shouldn't be in the Mojave anyway, so sure they aren't able to provide security there. And they've got their own thugs, to be sure. But I think you'd have to be insane to actually want the legion to take over in your area. That's where Caesar's civilization (I use that term very loosely) falls apart. The real Romans were pretty good at making people actually want to be Roman.

http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/598140546530270899/D286FC078342322CEAC2F4585897EB03CA4BD166/

Here's one example for you.

[Master Warder Z_]

Addai67 wrote...

You don't need to rely on NCR sources, you have plenty of testimony from the Legion themselves about how they treat their "citizens"- like the Legion slave ledger and Vulpes "that **** with the dog on his head" Inculta bragging about his lottery.

The things people praise is there isn't random crime on the roads. Oh, but you pass by a few crucifixions. Or a few hundred. Of course people making money off the system aren't complaining.

The NCR is over-extended and shouldn't be in the Mojave anyway, so sure they aren't able to provide security there. And they've got their own thugs, to be sure. But I think you'd have to be insane to actually want the legion to take over in your area. That's where Caesar's civilization (I use that term very loosely) falls apart. The real Romans were pretty good at making people actually want to be Roman.

Nipton was a Lesson; And while it was Harsh i can understand the Logic of it.

Legion Justice is pure and brutal and there is a certain beauty to it.

And i would agrue that Caesar does sort of make the Legion seem like a relatively good and stable place to live, not enough to sway people into joining them in hordes mind you but at the same time. you have people within the Mojave willing to join the Legion and you have those outside wishing to do the same.

Also regarding Slavery it is the key to the Legion success; Unpaid Labor frees up all but skilled positions for Martial or Management positions, In effect it allows the Legion to work as it does. You don't have healthy, Able bodied men working in their mines because slaves do it, You don't have Healthy Abled Body Men working as Farmers because their slaves do it.

So in truth?

Considering that you do have factions willing and even wishing to join the Legion; I would think that the Legion does in effect mirror that aspect of roman society.

http://images1.wikia...egionSymbol.png

[Mr.House]

Like I said before, the Legion is a valid option as while it does have it's cons, it also has its pros. The true issue with the Legion though is Caesars death spells the end for the Legion. There's the issue.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mr.House wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You don't need to rely on NCR sources, you have plenty of testimony from the Legion themselves about how they treat their "citizens"- like the Legion slave ledger and Vulpes "that **** with the dog on his head" Inculta bragging about his lottery.

The things people praise is there isn't random crime on the roads. Oh, but you pass by a few crucifixions. Or a few hundred. Of course people making money off the system aren't complaining.

The NCR is over-extended and shouldn't be in the Mojave anyway, so sure they aren't able to provide security there. And they've got their own thugs, to be sure. But I think you'd have to be insane to actually want the legion to take over in your area. That's where Caesar's civilization (I use that term very loosely) falls apart. The real Romans were pretty good at making people actually want to be Roman.

http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/598140546530270899/D286FC078342322CEAC2F4585897EB03CA4BD166/

Here's one example for you.

Ah Jimmy the Centurion boy.

Its unforunate but it goes back to a point i already covered.

You need a continious stream of numbers if you are support the current crop of Slaves, Warriors and What have you.

:/ It's  a disgusting iline of thought in reality but within FO i again can understand the chilled logic behind the act of denying it.

Homosexuality, Like not taking in adequete numbers of Women also leads to the Society crumbling upon it self, There must be a balance within it after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mr.House wrote...

Like I said before, the Legion is a valid option as while it does have it's cons, it also has its pros. The true issue with the Legion though is Caesars death spells the end for the Legion. There's the issue.

It would likely crumble with out an effective Leader that is true, it mirrors the NCR after all.

But that said there are those within the Legion's current Generation that would be effective Caesar's.

Honestly i wish that more insight was laid on to this area of the Legion Command Structure given we have no idea if Caesar has an heir apparent, or even the process of selecting another one.

My personal speculation would be that the Regional Overseers and Commanders of his territories; Basically the agents ruling the Legion land in his stead would get together along with his Legates and hash it out and declare a new Caesar.

Of course even if that assumption was correct, it still could spell civil war if it wasn't handled carefully but then again Governments rise and fall.

Its just for the first time in FO there is a Faction i actually can get behind within the game world no matter how much it digusts me in reality.

[Addai]

You learn how Caesar gets people to join him willingly in Oh Papa. It's not by advertising the efficiency of his society, it's by concealing its true nature. And then there's New Canaan and Zion, where you also see his ethic at work.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 janvier 2014 - 11:09 .

[Mr.House]

Addai67 wrote...

You learn how Caesar gets people to join him willingly in Oh Papa. It's not by advertising the efficiency of his society, it's by concealing its true nature. And then there's New Canaan and Zion, where you also see his ethic at work.

IIRC, the women where lied to and told they would become powerful warriors right?

[Master Warder Z_]

Mr.House wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You learn how Caesar gets people to join him willingly in Oh Papa. It's not by advertising the efficiency of his society, it's by concealing its true nature. And then there's New Canaan and Zion, where you also see his ethic at work.

IIRC, the women where lied to and told they would become powerful warriors right?

Scouts as i recall but in essence that is the truth of it but erm...The Legion did honor its other pledges you do realize, just not the one that conflicted with its own culture.

It did grant the Khans the placement into the Legion it promised, it gave them revenge the NCR and it gave the Lands it promised.

Just saying...Caesar does pay his debts; Admittedly this is the only case of us knowing the terms of the deal 3 out of four isn't bad.

[Addai]

The Legion emissary was promising Melissa she could join the frumentarii. But you can use Karl's journal or the Legion slave ledger, or provoke Karl into accidentally telling the truth, to show Papa Khan that the Legion considers them degenerates and plans to strip their tribal identity and possibly enslave them. "You'll get revenge on the NCR"... and oh yeah, you'll then be enslaved or crucified if you resist, must have forgotten to mention that part!

Anyway whether it's poor development or not, the Legion to me is not a credible faction. I can't even try to roleplay a Legion supporter. Don't enjoy playing a psychopath or a dolt.

[happy_daiz]

To each their own, but the Legion is not my bag, baby.

That Legion guy being held at McCarran would probably make a better leader than Caesar, imho. Aside from being a jerk, I had a nice conversation with him last night, with Laura Bailey blowing smoke rings up my butt afterwards, for being so smooth. Got double the pay and everything. But no, that still wouldn't sway me.

I'll just go about my merry way, siding with Yes Man in this run. An independent Vegas sounds lovely.

[LobselVith8]

happy_daiz wrote...

To each their own, but the Legion is not my bag, baby.

That Legion guy being held at McCarran would probably make a better leader than Caesar, imho. Aside from being a jerk, I had a nice conversation with him last night, with Laura Bailey blowing smoke rings up my butt afterwards, for being so smooth. Got double the pay and everything. But no, that still wouldn't sway me.

I'll just go about my merry way, siding with Yes Man in this run. An independent Vegas sounds lovely.

Yeah, I thought so, and Yes Man upgrades himself to only listen to you, so it seems he took a shine to the Courier.

[Barbarossa2010]

The Legion is a relapse and total regression in the face of serious environmental stress.  Now if someone believes that survival is the prime directive, and any means is a justification for that end; that stability is the end game for society, even if it means the most meager and pallid of existences for the "survivors" or “citizens” of such, then society groveling at the feet of tyrants and bending over to the will of dictators probably has its appeal…and I'm sure even more appealing if YOU are one of the ruling elite or part of the enforcement arm of such a system.

I fail to see the redeeming value of such a system as presented within the game, and would be tickled pink if anyone could explain how it would be.
 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:14 .

[happy_daiz]

On a different note, how do you guys usually handle the Great Khans?

I used to kill Papa Khan, so Regis could took over, because...well, I don't think I realized at the time that I could let him live, and come to a peaceful accord. Now I always let him live - this time, I convinced him that they could make their own identity. Last time, I urged him to look to the Mongols for inspiration. I don't really know which option is the 'best' one.

Maybe it's simply his lovely voice, and conviction with looking after his people, but I don't think it's right to kill him off. That decision just sits better with me.

Having them launch a suicide attack at the dam seems a bit too much like something Caesar would do. Anyway, just musing.

[Barbarossa2010]

I assassinated Papa Khan in sleep the only two times I've dealt with the Khans. As an independent, I'm not sure if there is a best solution, but I thought I would experiment a bit on this run. I know I want them on my side, so whatever approach I can do that with the greatest benefit, is what I will do. I'll report back on it later.

[happy_daiz]

Have you done quests for Jack and Diane? I love those two. There is also a guy that hangs out by the center ring at their camp, that you can help join the Followers. His poetry is something else.

Once you get friendly enough with them, you'll be able to trade with their armorers in the basement of that building near the entrance to their canyon.

Yes, I'll be curious to know what you end up doing!

Modifié par happy_daiz, 07 janvier 2014 - 03:21 .