45 réponses à ce sujet

[Blooddrunk1004]

fainmaca wrote...

I support being able to get a 'No One Left Behind' ending in ME3. I think, just occasionally, you should be able to have everybody live. Make unexpected consequences of choices, or difficult decisions, lead to squaddie deaths, but then have a 'perfect' playthrough as well.

I never feel that much of a wrench at the VS situation because it happens no matter what. It was much more emotional for me whan a Squadmate staggers and dies because of a choice you made, that if made in another way would not have killed anyone.

In short, yes squaddies should die due to wrong choices, but also make a perfect ending.

There is no such thing as perfect ending in war and there never will be one.
I want squadmates to die, sacrifice or something similiar. It brings drama into the story. Forget Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, people should watch/ read Game Of Thrones instead. Those series make you think twice before connecting with any charachters. I rather see Mass Effect 3 following this path, rather then cheesy and happy ending. They said 3rd one will be the darkest and most hopeless, make it soo.

[Blooddrunk1004]

double post

Modifié par Blooddrunk1004, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:22 .

[bleetman]

As is generally the case, character death by scripting is pretty impactful. Character death because you the player screwed up in some way or another, or made some decision which had unexpected consequences for you is far, far more hard hitting. Alistair's can't-talk-him-out-of-it romanced sacrifice at the end of Dragon Age had way, way more effect on me than any of the deaths in Mass Effect so far, because it was my fault.

Kaidan's death never struck me as "my fault". "Silly, arbitrary decision" with a dash of "why can't my ship full of marines and alien bad asses do something?", sure. And sure, it sucked. But character loss that you could have prevented but didn't? That's where the real emotional impact is. Characters just dying for the sake of having someone die and making things all foreboding doesn't come close.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:35 .

[Sshodan]

@ Blooddrunk1004
No thank you - Game Of Thrones is probably the first fantasy epic in my live I had no desire to read after the first two books... I mean really? Who cares how that piranha pond ends up? The only solution to that worlds problem is nuking them all form orbit, and do universe a favor
For many people inability to connect to the characters means inability to connect to the story. And when you are actively "punished" for connecting to the characters every time than it'll be a rather masochistic thing to keep doing it, don't you think?
One death adds depths and drama, and sometimes even meaning but overdoing it simply makes a player or a reader to either loose interest or stop caring, both are not particular good things.

@ bleetman
All you need to do to prevent it is reload and don't take him with your party. Which kind of lessens the impact for me.
On the other hand if he inevitably went after you and did it anyway if you romanced him and refused Morrigans offer, that'll be something entirely different.

Modifié par Sshodan, 23 juillet 2011 - 12:01 .

[bleetman]

Well, yes. That they haven't quite gotten it spot on just yet is perfectly valid, but it's still a damn sight better than "and now one of your squad dies, woohoo" pre-scripted nonsense.

[Dasher1010]

bleetman wrote...

As is generally the case, character death by scripting is pretty impactful. Character death because you the player screwed up in some way or another, or made some decision which had unexpected consequences for you is far, far more hard hitting. Alistair's can't-talk-him-out-of-it romanced sacrifice at the end of Dragon Age had way, way more effect on me than any of the deaths in Mass Effect so far, because it was my fault.

Kaidan's death never struck me as "my fault". "Silly, arbitrary decision" with a dash of "why can't my ship full of marines and alien bad asses do something?", sure. And sure, it sucked. But character loss that you could have prevented but didn't? That's where the real emotional impact is. Characters just dying for the sake of having someone die and making things all foreboding doesn't come close.

I agree 100%

[Kaiser_Wilhelm]

bleetman wrote...

As is generally the case, character death by scripting is pretty impactful. Character death because you the player screwed up in some way or another, or made some decision which had unexpected consequences for you is far, far more hard hitting. Alistair's can't-talk-him-out-of-it romanced sacrifice at the end of Dragon Age had way, way more effect on me than any of the deaths in Mass Effect so far, because it was my fault.

Kaidan's death never struck me as "my fault". "Silly, arbitrary decision" with a dash of "why can't my ship full of marines and alien bad asses do something?", sure. And sure, it sucked. But character loss that you could have prevented but didn't? That's where the real emotional impact is. Characters just dying for the sake of having someone die and making things all foreboding doesn't come close.

I agree. Deaths on account of your own mistakes or actions make things much more impactful. Even in ME1, when I sacrificed Kaidan at Virmire, even though I hated his character, it still had an effect on me, because I was the one who caused it. Scripting deaths just for the sake of drama is a bit shallow and not nearly as impacting.

Modifié par Kaiser_Wilhelm, 24 juillet 2011 - 10:47 .

[alperez]

Kaiser_Wilhelm wrote...


I agree. Deaths on account of your own mistakes or actions make things much more impactful. Even in ME1, when I sacrificed Kaidan at Virmire, even though I hated his character, it still had an effect on me, because I was the one who caused it. Scripting deaths just for the sake of drama is a bit shallow and not nearly as impacting.

Apart from the Virmire part, i couldn't agree with you more on what your saying, if it happens let it be because we the player are the reason it happens.

Make a choice, live with that choice and if bad things occur because of that choice then so be it.

But under no circumstances should that choice be either a random event (which is basically a scripted death) or a false choice just put in to make it look like something it isn't.

As bad as the SM was in me2 in terms of character deaths at least the reasoning made sense, don't do something, pick the wrong choice and bad things happen, a simple refinement of that system where because of choices you may have already made (me1/me2) or a choice you may make (me3) led to a character death would be acceptable imo.

But to just kill characters off with flawed reasoning because this in some way is supposed to be more dramatic or dark is completely stupid and as others have pointed out doesn't actually work either.

For me personally the only time i've seen a character death in games work as intended was Aeris in ff7 because of the shock nature of it and to show Sephiroth in the light they intended. In me3 we don't need that type of shock imo, and the reapers are already doing everything they're supposed to so how would a reaper or reaper lackey killing someone like Garrus randomly acheive anything other than annoying Garrus fans?

As for my objections to the Virmire choice its not actually the choice itself (although i have objections there) but in the fact that when you break it down it never looks like something that was impossible to survive.

Rescue either the person at the nuke or the tower and what you face is so miniscule that it really looks bad that they needed your help in the first place, a simple timed mission would have been better imo.

[Sepewrath]

ashlover mark 2 wrote...

MeAndMySandvich wrote...

Bah. Unavoidable (or at least unexpected) death raises the stakes and gives the game more impact. The whole "suicide mission? Moar liek homicide mission, amirite?" aspect of ME2 was fun, but didn't exactly contribute to the game's storytelling.

i agree, for ppl who liked both ash and kai virmire was much more impactful than the SM in ME2.

i actually HAVE  to murder a few ppl just to get a decent pay off from all that hype surrounding the mission during the game.

I completely disagree, a scripted death, you feel natural empathy for someone dying, but its unavoidable, so you feel no personal connection to the event happening. However, if someone dies, because you decided to rush through the Omega 4 Relay to save your crew, or the crew dies because you decided to take your time, that has way more personal impact, because it was you who made it happen, not the unquestionable will of the game.

It would be like say, Anderson dies on Earth, just because of "Teh Dramatikz" but if Anderson died, because I couldn't get help to him when he needed it, because I chose to do X, that would resonate way more with me. Personally I'm hoping any and all deaths, depend on decisions already made, no only static decisions in ME3, that would really deliver on what the SM could have been. The SM was a great idea, but outside of maybe not avoiding the IFF until you were finished building your squad on your first playthrough, they made it too easy.

[mopotter]

Gokuthegrate wrote...

If we have to have deaths in ME3 I hope it will be more like the SM were we actually had a chance to get everyone out alive instead of Virmire where you are forced to have a charecter die.

 

This would work for me.  Make it harder to get everyone out but give us at least the hope that it can be done.  

I only have around 2 ME2 games where everyone survived.  I usually lose 1 or 2 members of the team.  I don't look at the cheat diagram and I pick the person I think can do the job.  I never assign someone to do a job if I don't think they can do it.   edit:  and I do all of the upgrades.

I like both Ash and Kaidan so it's hard to leave either of them and now I just take turns.  Doesn't matter who is being the LI I've left both of them and I have games where the LI survivewd and where they died.  I have a couple of ME2 where the LI died also.

I'm seriously thinking of playing my first game of ME3 with a Shepard who didn't romance anyone in either game so I can find out the "traps" BW has laid for my poor heart.  

Modifié par mopotter, 23 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[mopotter]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

I support being able to get a 'No One Left Behind' ending in ME3. I think, just occasionally, you should be able to have everybody live. Make unexpected consequences of choices, or difficult decisions, lead to squaddie deaths, but then have a 'perfect' playthrough as well.

I never feel that much of a wrench at the VS situation because it happens no matter what. It was much more emotional for me whan a Squadmate staggers and dies because of a choice you made, that if made in another way would not have killed anyone.

In short, yes squaddies should die due to wrong choices, but also make a perfect ending.

There is no such thing as perfect ending in war and there never will be one.
I want squadmates to die, sacrifice or something similiar. It brings drama into the story. Forget Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, people should watch/ read Game Of Thrones instead. Those series make you think twice before connecting with any charachters. I rather see Mass Effect 3 following this path, rather then cheesy and happy ending. They said 3rd one will be the darkest and most hopeless, make it soo.

War may not have a perfect ending, but if someone you care about comes home from a war, that's a pretty good ending.  I want at least one of those.  Game of thrones - have no interest in it and won't pay out the cash to read or play something that's depressing.   

I hope they have more than one ending.  You can have yours, I'll take mine.  If they decide to do just one ending and it's some crap depressing sacrifice for the good of the galaxy, I'll have a real hard time buying their next game before I find out what they do with that ending.   I haven't spent almost 5 (5/07-3/12) years of my life playing a video game, because I am still playing both of them,  that's going to make me want to run my car off a bridge becuase it's ending is that depressing.  Bah humbug.  

[He Who Plays]

 Reading this thread made me think of something. BioWare tries to make Mass Effect emotionally engaging. Personally, I hope that someone that BioWare knows the fans have grown attached to is forced to die. It would be a great emotional moment, and could spark a motivational speech more powerful than the ones from the previous games, and more likely to be seen as more than just another pep talk before the big fight. Which is why I thought of a great idea. Shepard's love interest should die. This ensure that players are, in fact, deeply attached to the deceased. For those who pursued no romance in the course of doing important things like saving the galaxy twice, and being dead in between, someone very close to Shepard, like Garrus, or possibly the virmire survivor, Liara, or possibly someone new to the series could die by default. Garrus, or even Tali, would make a pretty good choice, because they have always been by Shepard's side, but Shepard appears to grown closer to Garrus (assuming a male Shepard did not romance Tali).
Having the love interest die a scripted event would be very impactful way to see any relationship come to a close, even if that death was expected, as is the case for Thane. It could be profoundly impactful for Liara, who should have outlived Shepard by hundreds of years, but Shepard would have to see her die instead. The idea that no one will be lost in the battle against the greatest threat the galaxy has faced in 50,000 years (actually the greatest threat ever, considering that the reapers have only been growing stronger (then again, a few reapers have been seen to die in  Shepard's time, so a certain status quo may have been maintained)), is perhaps folly, though it is possible for everyone to survive the suicide mission, so anything could happen.
Regardless of who would die if a squad death was scripted, I feel that there should be no choice in the matter. Shepard has had an opportunity to save/leave for dead his squad in the first game (Ashley/Kaiden, Wrex). This time around, there should be nothing Shepard can do to save the squad member(s). Perhaps he could try, whch would tie in nicely with the romance idea, but have no chance of success. This is simply how I feel, and I just thought of all of this as I wrote this post. The OP may have had a different idea, but I would be disappointed if BioWare did not ruthlessly wrench the soul of a companion away from Shepard.

Edit: Thanks to -Skorpious-. The fact that Garrus and Tali could be dead slipped my mind. I do not know what I was thinking.

Modifié par He Who Plays, 24 juillet 2011 - 05:31 .

[-Skorpious-]

*note - I am only making assumptions based on "confirmed" characters*

I hope at least Vega, Liara, or the VS dies in ME3? Why? With the reapers coming, the eventual deaths of so many innocents is always a disturbing thought, but both Shepard and the players need to experience an unavoidable, gut-wrenching loss that really drives the emotional stake home.

I didn't add Garrus and Tali to the list because, well, they could die in ME2 - there is no way to guarantee that they will be alive in all playthroughs, so the emotional reaction from having a close companion die (if ME2 wasn't enough) will be unavailable for some players.

[Jafroboy]

I dont want scripted deaths, I want deaths ingame to count.

[Nashiktal]

As long as their is a way to save everyone in a subsequent playthough, or at least an alternative I can follow I am fine with such deaths.

Just make sure I know when I am supposed to make a choice. Randomly having a squadmate die while you bring them along on a mission just isn't my idea of fun.

[sympathy4saren]

A scripted Garrus death scene. Do it!!

[Nixter Shepard]

bleetman wrote...

As is generally the case, character death by scripting is pretty impactful. Character death because you the player screwed up in some way or another, or made some decision which had unexpected consequences for you is far, far more hard hitting. Alistair's can't-talk-him-out-of-it romanced sacrifice at the end of Dragon Age had way, way more effect on me than any of the deaths in Mass Effect so far, because it was my fault.

Kaidan's death never struck me as "my fault". "Silly, arbitrary decision" with a dash of "why can't my ship full of marines and alien bad asses do something?", sure. And sure, it sucked. But character loss that you could have prevented but didn't? That's where the real emotional impact is. Characters just dying for the sake of having someone die and making things all foreboding doesn't come close.

Exactly.
When you choose between Kaiden and Ashley, you had made the choice of who lives and who dies by the same time you had accepted it leaving very little impact because you had already taken in the fact that you chose for them to die when you consciously said that you were going to save the other squadie.

[mopotter]

I don't need a video game to tell me how sad and gut wrenching it is to have someone you care about die.

I hope they give us options to keep people alive. I want a video game that I'm going to want to play for more than one play through. If there is only one option, why bother playing it more than once and if it's totally depressing why bother playing it at all.  


edit spelling

Modifié par mopotter, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:35 .

[Sepewrath]

-Skorpious- wrote...

*note - I am only making assumptions based on "confirmed" characters*

I hope at least Vega, Liara, or the VS dies in ME3? Why? With the reapers coming, the eventual deaths of so many innocents is always a disturbing thought, but both Shepard and the players need to experience an unavoidable, gut-wrenching loss that really drives the emotional stake home.

That wouldn't drive an emotional stake home, that wouldn't be any different than some random person dying playing on the fact that you would miss a character being there is not the kind of response your thinking of. You could get the same reaction if they just weren't in the game or disappeared. Think about it like this, lets say you saw someone fall off a cliff and they die and you were a good 200ft away. It would suck, you would feel empathy for a person dying like that, yeah. But compare it to this, doesn't even have to be someone you know, but lets say you were near them and they fell and you grabbed their arm. But you just weren't strong enough to pull them up and the fell, Which would hit you harder, the person you tried to save, the one you could have saved if you were a little stronger or the one the universe seems to have deemed they lived long enough?

That's the difference between a scripted death and one the player causes, the scripted death is you watch them die from 200ft away, non scripted is you look in their face when it happens when your the only chance the got and you fail. There is a huge gap in emotional investment there, another example would be if this series had an LI that was set in stone vs one you get to choose. The only person who it would be fine to have a scripted death is Thane.

[KainrycKarr]

As long as it's Virmire styled, sure.

[somecthemes]

I think as far as the Virmire events went, it was literally a sacrifice, something that no action could've avoided and necessary requirements for being a soldier. It made sense when Sheppard is literally doing every mission by himself with 2 other people to help.
In ME3, where entire civilizations are your intended alllies, well it seems a little more vendictive if Wrex, as opposed to some random Krogan, is the only one in a position to help Sheppard by sacrificing their life.