54 réponses à ce sujet

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

... post-Prothean extinction.  You know, the other end of the Conduit.  Which the Reapers could have removed and tossed out the nearest airlock for maximum lulz.

[MercenaryNo]

They probably just didn't imagine someone would ever find it, let alone drive an APC filled with a bunch of ragtag loose cannons who don't play by the rules through it to the other side at the climax of their victorious infiltration of the known galaxy.

[Black Raptor]

Unimportant. They probably didn't realise it was a real relay and decided to keep it there to create the illusion that the mass relays were a prothean invention.

Also, Reapers and like T-rexs. They only see movement.

[Bogsnot1]

Reapers are too big to fit into the Presidium.

[SojournerN7]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
Reapers are too big to fit into the Presidium.

This, and Keepers can't swim.

[Zulu_DFA]

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

[Black Raptor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

Lies. Everything Vigil told you was true. What he told you to do worked and what he said fitted with the evidence.

[Zulu_DFA]

Black Raptor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

Lies. Everything Vigil told you was true. What he told you to do worked and what he said fitted with the evidence.

Nope. On multiple levels what Vigil told you did not fit with anything.

Example:

Vigil: Ilos was top secret.
Liara: Squee, it's Ilos in your vision!!!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 juillet 2011 - 06:42 .

[Black Raptor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

Lies. Everything Vigil told you was true. What he told you to do worked and what he said fitted with the evidence.

Nope. On multiple levels what Vigil told you did not fit with anything.

Example:

Vigil: Ilos was top secret.
Liara: Squee, it's Ilos in your vision!!!

Top secret while the protheans were around. 50000 years later when the survivors specifically acted to prevent the Reapers return, knowing full well that Ilos would be important... well.

Might also be worth pointing out that Liara was the number one expert about Protheans and their extinction.

Try again. 

Modifié par Black Raptor, 23 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Black Raptor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

Lies. Everything Vigil told you was true. What he told you to do worked and what he said fitted with the evidence.

Nope. On multiple levels what Vigil told you did not fit with anything.

Example:

Vigil: Ilos was top secret.
Liara: Squee, it's Ilos in your vision!!!

Top secret while the protheans were around. 50000 years later when the survivors specifically acted to prevent the Reapers return, knowing full well that Ilos would be important... well.

Might also be worth pointing out that Liara was the number one expert about Protheans and their extinction.

Try again. 

And Liara's being expert on the Protheans wouldn't help her much to learn about Ilos, if the Protheans themselves didn't know about it (save for the select few with clearence).

As to your speculation that "the survivors" (aka "12 scientists") did it, it points to another load of crap Vigil stuffed down your ears:

1. Vigil said they had probably starved to death on the Citadel, but it has turned out to be bullsh*t, because the Citadel auto-produces "nutrient paste" in the "protein vatts", which not only the Keepers consume for sustenance, but the poor residents can do so as well.

2. A dozen individuals is more than enough to restart a civilization even relying just on good ol' sex. But they were freaking scientists, so they could clone each other and what not, if they were so bent on stopping the Reapers, instead of leaving stupid "clues" for someone else's civilization to come thousands years later. And anyway, if they could travel across space, to leave "clues" for Liara, they sure could return to Ilos and the tons of good functional equipment left there.

3. Oops, BTW, why did they have to use the experimental Conduit to go back to the Citadel? Why not use the space shutlle, which they usually had used to travel to and from their secret base prior to the Reaper invasion, since the Reapers were already gone...

4. Also, why does the planet description of Ilos on the galactic map say that the planet seems to have been "devastated by means unknown", and that it had once had "magnificent cities" on the surface? This does conform with Liara's notion that Ilos used to be well-known across the Prothean empire (and shared its fate), but it does not conform with the idea that it was a secret planet.

Try again.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 juillet 2011 - 08:43 .

[MACharlie1]

On the OP point...wasn't the Relay in the Citadel built AFTER the Reapers had fled?

[didymos1120]

MACharlie1 wrote...

On the OP point...wasn't the Relay in the Citadel built AFTER the Reapers had fled?

Um, no.  It had to be there already, otherwise the few surviving Protheans wouldn't have been able to get onto the Citadel.

[Black Raptor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And Liara's being expert on the Protheans wouldn't help her much to learn about Ilos, if the Protheans themselves didn't know about it (save for the select few with clearence).

As to your speculation that "the survivors" (aka "12 scientists" ) did it, it points to another load of crap Vigil stuffed down your ears:

What's wrong with having the survivors of the extinction try to help the new species. It seems pretty obvious to me that knowing the Conduit would be important in holding off the Reaper threat, that they do their best to make the existence of Ilos known.
 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. Vigil said they had probably starved to death on the Citadel, but it has turned out to be bullsh*t, because the Citadel auto-produces "nutrient paste" in the "protein vatts", which not only the Keepers consume for sustenance, but the poor residents can do so as well.

Key word there, probably. Vigil couldn't know what happened to the scientists and could only speculate. There is no way of knowing if the vatts are kept active while the cycle resets either or if Vigil even knew about them.
 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
2. A dozen individuals is more than enough to restart a civilization even relying just on good ol' sex. But they were freaking scientists, so they could clone each other and what not, if they were so bent on stopping the Reapers, instead of leaving stupid "clues" for someone else's civilization to come thousands years later. And anyway, if they could travel across space, to leave "clues" for Liara, they sure could return to Ilos and the tons of good functional equipment left there.

12 isn't enough to repopulate any known species on Earth. Why should it be different for Protheans? Cloning wouldn't resolve the issue for fairly obvious reasons. Also, just because they are scientists researching in the field of mass relay technology, they should suddenly become experts in cloning and bioengineering too? 
And why would they travel back to Ilos? If they did actually need to travel to leave clues behind rather than use the beacon network as implied, Ilos would be the last place they'd go back to because that's the one place they wouldn't need to leave clues as to where the condiut is. 
 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
3. Oops, BTW, why did they have to use the experimental Conduit to go back to the Citadel? Why not use the space shutlle, which they usually had used to travel to and from their secret base prior to the Reaper invasion, since the Reapers were already gone...

Because the Mass Relays are shut down after the Reaper's reapage. Hence why they have to be reactivated. Vigil explains why they used the conduit anyway. 
 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
4. Also, why does the planet description of Ilos on the galactic map say that the planet seems to have been "devastated by means unknown", and that it had once had "magnificent cities" on the surface? This does conform with Liara's notion that Ilos used to be well-known across the Prothean empire (and shared its fate), but it does not conform with the idea that it was a secret planet.

Because A: it doesn't conform. The only prothean ruins to survive elsewhere are lonely pyramids dotted on backwater planets, or ruins buried underground. Ilos is almost untouched compared to this as it's cities are still standing.
You can tell if a magnificant city existed by looking at ruins and you'd know the means of devestation if it had been a Reaper reapage because you knew about the Reapers at this point.  

You're making this too easy, try again.

[MACharlie1]

didymos1120 wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

On the OP point...wasn't the Relay in the Citadel built AFTER the Reapers had fled?

Um, no.  It had to be there already, otherwise the few surviving Protheans wouldn't have been able to get onto the Citadel.

Oh der. Can't sling shot to point B if there's nothing to catch said sling shotted. 

[Zaxares]

Who's to say the Conduit on the Citadel was ALWAYS in that spot? Perhaps it was stashed away in a top-secret vault during the Prothean's time that the Reapers didn't find or couldn't fit into. 50,000 years later, when the asari find the Citadel, they stumble across the hidden vault and go, "Oooh look! A fancy art sculpture to commemorate the Prothean's creation of the Mass Relays!"

[Zulu_DFA]

Black Raptor wrote...

12 isn't enough to repopulate any known species on Earth.

It is enough. You just have to put... um.. it.. you know.. there... like the bees and the flowers. [blushes]

Black Raptor wrote...



Cloning wouldn't resolve the issue for fairly obvious reasons.

Like?

You clone a thousand protheans you get a thousand new protheans. You can even apply varying gene mods in the process.

Black Raptor wrote...



Also, just because they are scientists researching in the field of mass relay technology, they should suddenly become experts in cloning and bioengineering too? 

Keepers. They are mass relays. Amirite?

Black Raptor wrote...



And why would they travel back to Ilos?

To pick up some stuff and go camping and making barbecue and many new protheans.

Black Raptor wrote...



If they did actually need to travel to leave clues behind rather than use the beacon network as implied

It is implied that that the beacons network is not good, becasue it (a) is broken, ( needs the Cypher to access.
Vigils says Shepard's vision is the message, but Liara can't make the sense out of it until the Feros affair, which  means she probably got her knowledge of Ilos from different sources. 

Are you still with me?
 I repeat: Ilos was both in the beacon vision, and some other non-Cypher-encrypted source that Liara got it from.

Oddly enough, the similar "message" was experienced by TIM, after he came in contact with an artifact which was of the Reaper origin and had nothing to do with the beacons.

Black Raptor wrote...



, Ilos would be the last place they'd go back to because that's the one place they wouldn't need to leave clues as to where the condiut is. 

If they were so bent on going extinct themselves, they could just as well take Vigil with them and install it on the Citadel, so that the next species to board it would be welcomed and briefed on the whole Reaper business immediately without the need to go to Ilos. Even if the Cypher would still be an obstacle, it would still be better than the same Cypher, plus the necessity to go rummage around several planets only to fint it and dig it out. So WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT???

Black Raptor wrote... 

Zulu_DFA wrote...

4. Also, why does the planet description of Ilos on the galactic map say that the planet seems to have been "devastated by means unknown", and that it had once had "magnificent cities" on the surface? This does conform with Liara's notion that Ilos used to be well-known across the Prothean empire (and shared its fate), but it does not conform with the idea that it was a secret planet.

Because A: it doesn't conform. The only prothean ruins to survive elsewhere are lonely pyramids dotted on backwater planets, or ruins buried underground. Ilos is almost untouched compared to this as it's cities are still standing.

So how could it have cities and be secret? Also (even if they could manage to make a whole colony with multiple cities secret)  why would they need to go hybernating, instead of continuing business as usual - growing food, reproducing, all that - only with severed access to the Extranet...  What was the point?

Black Raptor wrote..



You can tell if a magnificant city existed by looking at ruins and you'd know the means of devestation if it had been a Reaper reapage because you knew about the Reapers at this point.  

But the Codex, and the Galactic map still don't know it. That's why all such ruins are listed as "devasted by means uknown", "mysteriously", "too regular to be a result of meteor shower", etc. So yeah, nothing rings a bell about Ilos in particular.

Black Raptor wrote..



You're making this too easy, try again.

Guess it does seem easy, when you constanly miss the point. Try again.

[Bogsnot1]

Zulu, 12 individuals is not enough genetic variation to be able to repopulate a species without mutation.
That said, it is entirely possible hat they got into the protein vats from which the keepers are produced, and used that technology to extend their lifespans, and/or start propogating the species. Due to the lack of initial genetic variants, they did start to mutate, with their skin turning blue, the tentacles under their noses migrating north and becoming their scalp (see Ruperts Calamari wisecrack for reference).
Due to their reliance upon the protein vats, they also lost out their gender diversity, becoming a mono-gendered species, and later on developed the ability to grab a mental snapshot of another creatures DNA in order to use it to give theirs a good shake to avoid further mutation.
Constant exposure to false lighting of the Citadel turned their skin blue, andthe constant exposure to the indoctrinating energies of the Reaper tech (Citadel) had a side effect on their modified genes to grant them natural biotic abilities.
Realising that thebest way to keep both their origins, and ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers a secret, the modified Protheans decided to find a Homeworld to settle, and created a false history in which to teach in their schools, with only the privaliged few being let in on the secret of their true nature.
For centuries, the secret Prothean society worked in teh shadows, guiding galactic civilisation, performing genetic experiments, arranging births, deaths and marriages, until they created the perfect soldier who would finally defeat the Reapers.
One who could fight like a Krogan, and run like a leopard.

In conclusion, the Asari didnt find the Citadel first, they were there since the last harvest.

*puts the crack pipe down and steps away from the keyboard*

[xXljoshlXx]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Zulu, 12 individuals is not enough genetic variation to be able to repopulate a species without mutation.
That said, it is entirely possible hat they got into the protein vats from which the keepers are produced, and used that technology to extend their lifespans, and/or start propogating the species. Due to the lack of initial genetic variants, they did start to mutate, with their skin turning blue, the tentacles under their noses migrating north and becoming their scalp (see Ruperts Calamari wisecrack for reference).
Due to their reliance upon the protein vats, they also lost out their gender diversity, becoming a mono-gendered species, and later on developed the ability to grab a mental snapshot of another creatures DNA in order to use it to give theirs a good shake to avoid further mutation.
Constant exposure to false lighting of the Citadel turned their skin blue, andthe constant exposure to the indoctrinating energies of the Reaper tech (Citadel) had a side effect on their modified genes to grant them natural biotic abilities.
Realising that thebest way to keep both their origins, and ultimate goal of defeating the Reapers a secret, the modified Protheans decided to find a Homeworld to settle, and created a false history in which to teach in their schools, with only the privaliged few being let in on the secret of their true nature.
For centuries, the secret Prothean society worked in teh shadows, guiding galactic civilisation, performing genetic experiments, arranging births, deaths and marriages, until they created the perfect soldier who would finally defeat the Reapers.
One who could fight like a Krogan, and run like a leopard.

In conclusion, the Asari didnt find the Citadel first, they were there since the last harvest.

*puts the crack pipe down and steps away from the keyboard*

What did i just read?

[Bogsnot1]

A crack fuelled brain fart. Dont worry, its fully treatable with Brain Bleach. Ask for it by name.

[Candidate 88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.

Vigil was exposition in holographic form. It was Bioware's way of clearly explaining to the player what was going on. If it turned out that Bioware had been telling us false stuff through Vigil then that would be a pretty massive retcon.

[Candidate 88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

12 isn't enough to repopulate any known species on Earth.

Inbreeding.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 24 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .

[Bogsnot1]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
12 isn't enough to repopulate any known species on Earth.

Inbreeding.

I hear banjos. 

[Black Raptor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

It is enough. You just have to put... um.. it.. you know.. there... like the bees and the flowers. [blushes]

It isn't enough to avoid inbreeding. Besides, we can't know how many were male and female.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Like?

You clone a thousand protheans you get a thousand new protheans. You can even apply varying gene mods in the process.

You get 1000 identical Protheans with the same DNA which still wouldn't alleviate the problem of inbreeding. 
+cloning isn't going to be in the expertise of scientists working on Mass Relay technology even if they had the means to do so.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Keepers. They are mass relays. Amirite?

Blocking a signal is hardly cloning. It's worrying that I have to spell these things out to you.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
It is implied that that the beacons network is not good, becasue it (a) is broken, ( needs the Cypher to access.
Vigils says Shepard's vision is the message, but Liara can't make the sense out of it until the Feros affair, which  means she probably got her knowledge of Ilos from different sources. 

Are you still with me?
 I repeat: Ilos was both in the beacon vision, and some other non-Cypher-encrypted source that Liara got it from.

Oddly enough, the similar "message" was experienced by TIM, after he came in contact with an artifact which was of the Reaper origin and had nothing to do with the beacons.

The Protheans had no way of ensuring that a: the beacons would survive until found and b: could be understood by the founders.
Once again, Liara is the no.1 expert on Protheans and their extinction. It's not far fetched that she would find something out about Ilos because of that.  

Zulu_DFA wrote...
If they were so bent on going extinct themselves, they could just as well take Vigil with them and install it on the Citadel, so that the next species to board it would be welcomed and briefed on the whole Reaper business immediately without the need to go to Ilos. Even if the Cypher would still be an obstacle, it would still be better than the same Cypher, plus the necessity to go rummage around several planets only to fint it and dig it out. So WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT???

 This is explained in ME1. I suggest you go back and play it. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So how could it have cities and be secret? Also (even if they could manage to make a whole colony with multiple cities secret)  why would they need to go hybernating, instead of continuing business as usual - growing food, reproducing, all that - only with severed access to the Extranet...  What was the point?

This is also explained in ME1. The whole planet was a secret. The went into hibernation to make sure they weren't found by the Reapers. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But the Codex, and the Galactic map still don't know it. That's why all such ruins are listed as "devasted by means uknown", "mysteriously", "too regular to be a result of meteor shower", etc. So yeah, nothing rings a bell about Ilos in particular.

 Ilos was discovered by Saren and the Normandy crew. Unlike all the other planets, they knew about the Reapers when this planet was discovered. 

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Guess it does seem easy, when you constanly miss the point. Try again.

Yes, it's not like your hypothosis makes any sense...

[didymos1120]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
12 isn't enough to repopulate any known species on Earth.

Inbreeding.

I hear banjos. 

Hopefully, there will be no squealing to follow....

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 juillet 2011 - 10:27 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Because Vigil was lying. Protheans did not build it. It was there always.[/quote]Vigil was exposition in holographic form. It was Bioware's way of clearly explaining to the player what was going on. If it turned out that Bioware had been telling us false stuff through Vigil then that would be a pretty massive retcon.
[/quote]
So Elnora turning out a bad girl was a retcon. I get you.


[quote]Candidate 88766 wrote...

Inbreeding.[/quote]
Yes, inbreeding.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

It is enough. You just have to put... um.. it.. you know.. there... like the bees and the flowers. [blushes]
[/quote]It isn't enough to avoid inbreeding.[/quote]
Why inbreeding should be avoided?
1/2 of the time there is no difference.
1/4 of the time it's harmful.
1/4 of the time it's beneficial.
You just have to eliminate the harmful variations and you're scot free.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

Besides, we can't know how many were male and female.
[/quote]
Maybe they were monogendered, like the asari. Even if not, they were sooooo advanced. They could make them some babes (like Miranda).


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
Like?

You clone a thousand protheans you get a thousand new protheans. You can even apply varying gene mods in the process.
[/quote]You get 1000 identical Protheans with the same DNA which still wouldn't alleviate the problem of inbreeding.
[/quote]
What was the problem with inbreeding, come again?

And, like I've said, you could use gene mods. You can outright engineer protheans any way you like. Or a even crocoducks, if you've got advanced enough tech, and the protheans are said to have been very advanced.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...

+cloning isn't going to be in the expertise of scientists working on Mass Relay technology even if they had the means to do so.
[/quote]
Then how the mass relay scientists could make sense of the Keepers, the signal and all that stuff?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Keepers. They are mass relays. Amirite?
[/quote]
Blocking a signal is hardly cloning. It's worrying that I have to spell these things out to you.
[/quote]
If you imagine that they just put tinfoil hats on the Keepers, that wouldn't work, because any new :eepers would come without the tinfoil hats. They had to alter the Keepers (like, all of them, which means they had to figure out where they come former, how they are made, how they work, etc) and alter their responsiveness to the signal on the genetic level.

BTW, Chorban seems to think that the Keepers are still going to respond to the signal, and hasn't found anything that might be blocking it.


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 

Once again, Liara is the no.1 expert on Protheans and their extinction. It's not far fetched that she would find something out about Ilos because of that.  
[/quote]
But it is far fetched. If Ilos was secret, and the Reapers couldn't pry it out of the mind of any of their indoctrinated subjects, that would mean that there was nothing pointing to Ilos to be found during the Prothean extinction. And it couldn't appear out of the thin air 50K years after.

In other words, the Reapers would have found the same clues Liara did, and gone to Ilos and harvested it. (Which, BTW, they apparendly did - see Galaxy map description.)


[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

If they were so bent on going extinct themselves, they could just as well take Vigil with them and install it on the Citadel, so that the next species to board it would be welcomed and briefed on the whole Reaper business immediately without the need to go to Ilos. Even if the Cypher would still be an obstacle, it would still be better than the same Cypher, plus the necessity to go rummage around several planets only to fint it and dig it out. So WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT???[/quote] This is explained in ME1. I suggest you go back and play it. 
[/quote]
Can you mail me your copy of the game, please? Because in the one I own it isn't explained.

Why leave Vigil on Ilos? Why not make a copy and install it on the Citadel?



[quote]Black Raptor wrote... 
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

So how could it have cities and be secret? Also (even if they could manage to make a whole colony with multiple cities secret)  why would they need to go hybernating, instead of continuing business as usual - growing food, reproducing, all that - only with severed access to the Extranet...  What was the point?[/quote] This is also explained in ME1. The whole planet was a secret. The went into hibernation to make sure they weren't found by the Reapers. 
[/quote]
OK, the whole planet was secret, so why go into hybernation? It's not like buzzing around gives you away to somebody in another star system. And if the Reapers came to Ilos, it's not like they could miss such an anomaly as the Conduit anyway, so what was the point in hybernating?

To put it in terms that you understand: What is the point of hiding under a table in a secret room that the bad guys don't know of, but if they find the secret room accidentally, they will seach it and find you there anyway (because they are thourough and use infrared sensors)?


[quote]Black Raptor wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

But the Codex, and the Galactic map still don't know it. That's why all such ruins are listed as "devasted by means uknown", "mysteriously", "too regular to be a result of meteor shower", etc. So yeah, nothing rings a bell about Ilos in particular.
[/quote] Ilos was discovered by Saren and the Normandy crew. Unlike all the other planets, they knew about the Reapers when this planet was discovered.[/quote]
OK, nothing rings a bell. I get it.



[quote]Black Raptor wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

Guess it does seem easy, when you constanly miss the point. Try again.[/quote] Yes, it's not like your hypothosis makes any sense...
[/quote]
It's not like Vigil's tale (or Saren's plan, or the Human-Reaper) makes any sense, so... whatever.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 juillet 2011 - 01:42 .